A Skip Button for Boss Fights

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Req:

That's not a great example considering the Souls series has a variation on the skip button already: summons. Sure, how effective they are depends on the fight and the summons themselves, but generally they range between making the fight dramatically easier or outright breaking it.

And that's the kind of "skip" option I'd suggest, one that doesn't outright skip the section, but more or less(or even literally) plays it for you. It gives the player a way to continue if they hit a wall they can't get past, but it technically doesn't skip the section, so any context given by it is preserved. I don't see myself ever using that option, but I don't see it ruining anyone's experience either.

It's not a button. Summoning requires effort, risk and resources. It's not the best designed feature since your experience can vary so wildly, going as far as making the fight trivial, but it's definitely better than a simple button. I even mentioned it in another post.

altnameJag:

CritialGaming:

It's excuses and that is all it is. Skip buttons can fuck right off. Although I fully support skippable cutscenes that I have seen 100 times already. I'm dying to a boss over and over, let me skip his fucking intro please.

Sorry, but that's how the game is meant to be played.

Adapt and overcome.

EDIT: Kinda set yourself up for that one, mate.

Touche sir. Although the comment doesn't make sense even in mocking my original "moto", as if you make a game meant to be skipped, then what did you actually make?

Dalsyne:

maninahat:

That's an odd assumption to make. I happily skip things that are frustrating, repetitive, or just plain rubbish so that I can get back to the good parts. Enduring through a tough or unpleasant thing is rewarding, but in the balance of things there are times were I would be happier skipping it (and that possible of a sense of achievement) so that I can get on with the rest of the thing I like. I'm sorry that you find this to be weird, unacceptable behaviour that you have never exhibited in gaming or the rest of your life.

The point was there's no satisfaction in skipping, just relief that you won't be needing to do that anymore. You may even feel some guilt.

Apply this to challenging boss fights and it becomes really easy to just press the button. One thing I like about the Souls series is how many people come from it with stories of "I nearly threw my controller on that one boss, fought him like 30 times, but in the end I was victorious! This game is amazing!". What would you think would happen if all these people could just press a button and move on? I'll tell you: "Man this game is full of shitty fights, I'm happy I could press this here button and just not do them heh".

You may not like it, but this is what would happen. People do not generally seek adversity, as a group. Those who wouldn't use such actions do not constitute a majority of the playerbase. Those who would, probably don't know they can do it and thus choose to rid themselves of the uncertainty. In any case, the game would suffer for it.

Which also reminds me: how do you think developers themselves would design their games if this becomes common practice?

"Hey this boss has a bullshit attack that kills you half the time and there's no way to stop it"

"Who cares, we put a skip button on it, didn't we? If they don't want the challenge they can move to the next level anyway"

Yes, I'm saying developers are affected by their own design choices. It happens - it happened with Diablo 3's real money auction house as a primary example, and I'm sure it happens all the time, the effects are just not as visible due to us not knowing the circumstances behind development. Hell, it already happens in some games with many difficulty modes - I was bored of Devil May Cry on easy mode but had problems with it on normal mode due to the devs expecting you to play it on easy first, then normal, then hard etc since the upgrades carried over. So I had to endure through a boring game to get to the good one in a manageable way.

I don't care if that is what would happen.

From a dev perspective, I imagine the most likely outcome would be them thinking "more people seem to be skipping this boss fight than we'd like. Perhaps we should better balance this fight to make them a more reasonable challenge, and people would be less tempted to skip it." Perhaps there already is a similar perspective when it comes to designing game cutscenes, where the dev's mentality is "let's try to make this cutscene as quality and unobtrusive as possible, that way less people will want to skip it". These days, if a dev includes unskippable cut scenes, they get a hammering for it from fans. Devs can either get precious about making people see every last bit of their hard work, or they can accept that players would rather have the option and adapt to it.

CritialGaming:
Touche sir. Although the comment doesn't make sense even in mocking my original "moto", as if you make a game meant to be skipped, then what did you actually make?

There's those videos on Youtube of just a game's cutscenes, stitched together sans gameplay.

So ... a poorly written, badly acted and disjointed movie?

Chimpzy:

CritialGaming:
Touche sir. Although the comment doesn't make sense even in mocking my original "moto", as if you make a game meant to be skipped, then what did you actually make?

There's those videos on Youtube of just a game's cutscenes, stitched together sans gameplay.

So ... a poorly written, badly acted and disjointed movie?

So not a game then? Which is exactly the point of this whole thread.

Zhukov:

SoliterDan:

Zhukov:
Oh, there's something wrong with it all right. It's garden variety snobbery and it's rather pathetic.

You're talking about video games. The great accomplishment you're taking so much hilariously unjustified pride in and looking down your nose at others over is the ability to put the correct inputs into a digital toy.

Yes, because other forms of sports and entertainment aren't the same in this regard....

You're gonna have to elaborate on that if you want any kind of response.

You don't think Tom Brady was motivated by recognition and rewards as he worked to become the best QB in world? He now has 5 Super Bowl rings, multiple MVP awards, hundreds of millions of dollars and is married to a super model. That was his reward.

Are you saying Tom Brady is "pathetic?"

That's obviously an extreme example, but that theme exists in all levels of sports and yes, games, including video games. People are driven to excel and overcome obstacles because of self-pride, recognition, and rewards. That's not "wrong." What's "wrong" is jealous people crying that it's unfair that better players get better rewards. Like it's discrimination or something.

Dalsyne:
It's not a button. Summoning requires effort, risk and resources. It's not the best designed feature since your experience can vary so wildly, going as far as making the fight trivial, but it's definitely better than a simple button. I even mentioned it in another post.

It effectively is a button. What effort is there in pressing "Accept"? True, there's some risk due to the higher likelihood of being invaded, but the summons themselves mitigate that risk, not to mention most summons are found right outside a boss door, past which you can't be invaded. As for resources, those have always been laughably common, you could even earn them by being summoned yourself. The pros of summoning have always vastly outweighed the negligible cons.

Kerg3927:

You don't think Tom Brady was motivated by recognition and rewards as he worked to become the best QB in world? He now has 5 Super Bowl rings, multiple MVP awards, hundreds of millions of dollars and is married to a super model. That was his reward.

Are you saying Tom Brady is "pathetic?"

That's obviously an extreme example, but that theme exists in all levels of sports and yes, games, including video games. People are driven to excel and overcome obstacles because of self-pride, recognition, and rewards. That's not "wrong." What's "wrong" is jealous people crying that it's unfair that better players get better rewards. Like it's discrimination or something.

Oh don't be so pretentious, gaming is entertainment and only in specific circumstances considered a 'sport' which is highly regulated as it is.

Kerg3927:
You don't think Tom Brady was motivated by recognition and rewards as he worked to become the best QB in world? He now has 5 Super Bowl rings, multiple MVP awards, hundreds of millions of dollars and is married to a super model. That was his reward.

Are you saying Tom Brady is "pathetic?"

That's obviously an extreme example, but that theme exists in all levels of sports and yes, games, including video games. People are driven to excel and overcome obstacles because of self-pride, recognition, and rewards. That's not "wrong." What's "wrong" is jealous people crying that it's unfair that better players get better rewards. Like it's discrimination or something.

image

Whoooooo, boy. That analogy is woefully off target.

You're comparing a competition between professional competitors to people playing with a toy for their own enjoyment. We're not even talking about competitive multiplayer games here.

I haven't seen anybody suggest that people who aren't much good at games should be awarded a share of the prize pool of the pro-Starcraft league.

I was actually trying to come up with analogy of my own for my initial post, but I was struggling to find something that encapsulated the sheer pettiness and pathetically low stakes of it all.

Best I can do is that it's like if someone learned how to solve a Rubik's Cube then he hears that someone else just peeled the coloured stickers off and rearranged them to "solve" it. So he gets all snooty and says they shouldn't be allowed to put it on their mantelpiece until they do it "properly" and demands that Rubik's Cubes be made with indelible paint to prevent the common folk from possessing completed cubes. Because apparently he can't take pride in his own amusing but ultimately useless skill unless he thinks it's giving him something that someone else can't get.

Oh, and if Tom Brady, whoever that is, went about trying to rub his accomplishments in the faces of people who aren't interested in playing professional sports but just want to kick a ball around the park with their kids for fun then yes, that would be utterly fucking pathetic.

Xsjadoblayde:

Kerg3927:

You don't think Tom Brady was motivated by recognition and rewards as he worked to become the best QB in world? He now has 5 Super Bowl rings, multiple MVP awards, hundreds of millions of dollars and is married to a super model. That was his reward.

Are you saying Tom Brady is "pathetic?"

That's obviously an extreme example, but that theme exists in all levels of sports and yes, games, including video games. People are driven to excel and overcome obstacles because of self-pride, recognition, and rewards. That's not "wrong." What's "wrong" is jealous people crying that it's unfair that better players get better rewards. Like it's discrimination or something.

Oh don't be so pretentious, gaming is entertainment and only in specific circumstances considered a 'sport' which is highly regulated as it is.

I didn't say it was a sport. I said the motivations that drive people who play sports also drive people who play video games. When I come home from work and play video games, I see it as not much different than playing golf, going bowling or playing poker. Yes, it serves as entertainment, but it's not the same as watching a movie or reading a book. People are driven to be good at games, and it's not "wrong" if they are rewarded for success. It's a good thing.

Caramel Frappe:
That would be like if the movie industry went, "Well you guys can now skip the horror scenes in a scary movie" or if a book had a page with the title "Skip to page 132 to see the plot twist" written on it. What's the point of skipping something that was meant to be played? You might as well watch it free on a LP or something if you're that lazy / unmotivated to skip a boss fight lmao.

Ummmmmmm... you know you can in fact skip scenes in a movie or pages in a book, right?

Does your enjoyment of movies suffer because I prefer to skip the nighttime scenes in Mad Max Fury Road when I watch it?

Zhukov:
That analogy is woefully off target.

You're comparing a competition between professional competitors to people playing with a toy for their own enjoyment. We're not even talking about competitive multiplayer games here.

A(n American) football is a toy, too. And ultimately, what happens in professional sports is useless, too. It's not solving any pressing world problems.

Best I can do is that it's like if someone learned how to solve a Rubik's Cube then he hears that someone else just peeled the coloured stickers off and rearranged them to "solve" it. So he gets all snooty and says they shouldn't be allowed to put it on their mantelpiece until they do it "properly" and demands that Rubik's Cubes be made with indelible paint to prevent the common folk from possessing completed cubes. Because apparently he can't take pride in his own amusing but ultimately useless skill unless he thinks it's giving him something that someone else can't get.

No, you've got it backwards. In the current situation, the colors are already painted on to prevent people from cheating and rearranging them. But there are people crying that it's not fair, that they should switch the colors to stickers so that everyone can cheat and rearrange them and complete it.

Oh, and if Tom Brady, whoever that is, went about trying to rub his accomplishments in the faces of people who aren't interested in playing professional sports but just want to kick a ball around the park with their kids for fun then yes, that would be utterly fucking pathetic.

Who said anything about rubbing accomplishments in anyone's faces? I would certainly never do anything like that. But I do feel self-pride when I beat a difficult encounter in a game. And I am motivated by that self-pride. I am also motivated by the fact that beating a certain boss rewards me with being able to see the next part of the game. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Req:

It effectively is a button. What effort is there in pressing "Accept"?

Recovering your humanity at a bonfire, using an item, finding summon signs, using them, and then pressing Accept. That, and you still have to do the fight, and you can still die on the boss if you're careless or if the summons aren't very good. It effectively is NOT a button, not even close. It's multiple buttons, and not to skip, but to roll the dice and make the boss fight easier.

maninahat:

I don't care if that is what would happen.

From a dev perspective, I imagine the most likely outcome would be them thinking "more people seem to be skipping this boss fight than we'd like. Perhaps we should better balance this fight to make them a more reasonable challenge, and people would be less tempted to skip it." Perhaps there already is a similar perspective when it comes to designing game cutscenes, where the dev's mentality is "let's try to make this cutscene as quality and unobtrusive as possible, that way less people will want to skip it". These days, if a dev includes unskippable cut scenes, they get a hammering for it from fans. Devs can either get precious about making people see every last bit of their hard work, or they can accept that players would rather have the option and adapt to it.

Balancing things for a single-player game after the game is launched is usually a bit too late, as the majority of sales happen shortly after and before launch. People will have already concluded something about the game by then. How many devs balance boss fights? How many games change mechanics post-launch? How many will they still want to if the option to skip it is already there? I find your thinking to be a bit dismissive.

I don't expect bosses to be super hard overnight. I expect this to happen very gradually, to the point where videogame bosses will just be "for the hardcore" and completely separate from the difficulty curve, because the casual audience is where most sales factor in.

Kerg3927:
A(n American) football is a toy, too. And ultimately, what happens in professional sports is useless, too. It's not solving any pressing world problems.

Not the point.

You're comparing professional competition with solo amusement. Two very different things.

No, you've got it backwards. In the current situation, the colors are already painted on to prevent people from cheating and rearranging them. But there are people crying that it's not fair, that they should switch the colors to stickers so that everyone can cheat and rearrange them and complete it.

Same thing.

The point is that you're not satisfied with your own trivial accomplishments if someone else accomplished the same trivial thing in a way you don't like.

But I do feel self-pride when I beat a difficult encounter in a game. And I am motivated by that self-pride. I am also motivated by the fact that beating a certain boss rewards me with being able to see the next part of the game. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Nope, nothing wrong with that.

But if self-pride was all that was motivating you then you wouldn't be concerned with how other people go about playing their games. But apparently you really, really are.

The bit you quoted in your first post and agreed with summed it up pretty well:

"But someone other than me might press them, and then they'd get to see a bit of the game that was meant only for the Deserving Champions!" Because, the real nub of it is, it's about exclusivity. It's about keeping the Thems, the riff-raff, the outsider, out. THIS section of the game, this is special to me and only those as great as I am! I DESERVE this bit of the game! Those weaklings do not!"

That right there is not a description of self-pride.

...

Let me put it another way, with an example from an actual video game.

There's a door in Dishonored 2 that you need to get through to progress. It's locked by a logic puzzle. You can get the password by doing secondary missions. Or you can solve the puzzle, which is rather tough. (Or at least it was for me, maybe I'm just thick.)

I chose to solve the puzzle without finding the solution as a point of, well, self-pride I suppose. Doing this gives you an achievement. (Then I loaded my save and did the secondary missions anyway because I wanted to see all the game's content.)

I feel confident in saying that there are people out there who "cheated" for that achievement. They could have saved at the puzzle, done the secondary missions, written down the solution and then reloaded and "solved" it. Or of course they could have just googled the solution. There are people out there with that achievement who didn't "earn" it like I did.

Also, we all progressed to the next stage of the game, regardless of how we did it.

And I don't give a single flying fuck. Why the hell would I? How they play their games is their business and has no impact on how I chose to play mine and whatever enjoyment and satisfaction I got from it.

Just contemplating the idea of getting uppity over something so trivial makes me feel petty.

maninahat:
all games, that is

See, this irks me. Maybe it shouldn't, but I'm an irkable person, easily irked, and this is as irking as irkishness comes.

You want to see *some* developers keeping your not-willing-to-put-in-the-practice-to-earn-your-ending-attitude in mind? That's fine I guess. It takes all sorts to make a world.

And I get that since you got toddlers your playing time vanished in a puff and your thumbs just plain fell off, but that's the way the cookie crumbles okay? Some games want you to eat the dirt, learn from your mistakes, and git gud all the way to victory, and that's the goddamn way it goddamn should be.

You git gud at changing diapers, but get your paws off our bragging rights.

(and with you I don't mean you, OP - just the advocates of this silliness in general)

Skip button for boss fights, I can't even *mumble grumble*

Potjeslatinist:
You git gud at changing diapers, but get your paws off our bragging rights.

That's what this is all about? "Bragging rights" about a consumerist hobby? Do you really have nothing else in your life to base your self-esteem upon that excluding others from enjoying the same media as you becomes a necessity?

Regardless, you still would have your "bragging rights" that let you put others down over a meaningless toy. They would simply change from "you noobs couldn't even beat dark souls" to "you noobs couldn't even beat dark souls on hardcore difficulty" or "you noobs couldn't beat the Bed of Chaos without the skip button."

Why does it upset you so much that others might get to enjoy the game in a different manner than you? The person who beat dark souls using a plastic guitar for input is better than either of us, but I haven't seen them arguing that dark souls should mandate the use of plastic instruments as the only input devices; he can still "brag" about his accomplishment if he feels its necessary though.

Zhukov:
You're comparing professional competition with solo amusement. Two very different things.

Different to you. Not so different to me. When I played (American) football growing up, I put a lot into it. Lifting weights, etc. I wanted to become as good as I could be at that sport.

I treat video games the same way. When I was GM of a WoW raiding guild, I did every little thing possible to maximize my character and to prepare myself for raids. I tried to lead by example. If we failed to down a boss, I didn't want it to be because of me. I always wanted to be a part of the solution and not the problem. I tried to motivate others to do the same.

I don't play WoW or raid anymore. But my hobby is still video games. And I still approach it the same way in solo games. I study stats, game mechanics, etc. I min/max. Although fashion is important, too. :)

Now I don't expect other people to put that much effort into it. But it does bother me when people obviously don't want to put ANY effort into it. They want to just skip stuff - even when they have easy-mode - at the first sign of a challenge. It's makes me sad.

So maybe it's not so much the idea that a skip button might be implemented that bothers me. I'd never press it. What bothers me is that people are asking for it. It bothers me that easy-modes aren't enough for some people. Because I'm pretty sure that the percentage of gamers who literally CAN'T complete most games on easy-mode with just a little bit of effort is very, very small. It makes me sad that there are people in the world who are really that freakin' lazy. People who would demand a significant change to what, IMO, video games have always been about, overcoming obstacles to progress. Because they believe they are entitled to it. It's just disturbing to me.

So maybe that's a me problem. It probably is. Still makes me hope like hell that developers laugh off this ridiculous boss-skipping idea. Just stay the hell away from my Souls games. :)

Here Comes Tomorrow:

That to me sounds self-defeatist and is basically you admitting to the game that you do indeed suck. Imagine if the people playing through Ending E on Nier:Automata had agreed with the ending and decided to quit after the 3 or 4th attempt. Shit like that is supposed to make you say "FUCK YOU GAME I'LL SHOW YOU", not crumple like used up kleenex tissue and give up.

Spoiler if you haven't played it and don't intend to:

I've reached a point in my life where I don't find frustration to be fun. To me there is no enjoyment to playing a sequence again and again until you find the one trick to getting past it.

Like I said, I can understand why people do enjoy it. Beating the frustration is part of beating the sequence.

However I have enough frustration in my working life that I don't need to come back to my flat and get frustrated again in my entertainment time. I loved LA Noire, I didn't use the skip option before that bulldozer sequence or after it, but without it I never would have seen the rest of the game.

There was a game back in 2010 called 'Lords of Shadow' which I was greatly enjoying. There were parts of the game though where you have to climb up large golem like creatures and activate sigils in order to defeat them. I reached one though, and I forget the exact place in the seven years since, that I simply could not get past. I honestly don't know what it was, for some reason I kept messing this one golem up. After more tries than I care to remember I stopped the game, placed it back in its box, and I've never played it since.

For some that frustration I was feeling would be a drive to continue, to prove that they could do it. For me it was the sign that I was no longer having fun in the game and that it was time to move on to something else. It's a shame really as it is entirely possible that if Lords of Shadow had a skip option just like LA Noire that I would have gone on to see what else was in the game.

I have to say if people want to skip boss fights in games, why not? Let them do what they want to. No one is forcing you to use the skip button, the same way no one forces you to use cheat codes or super easy mode.

What I don't understand is the whole "every game should be for everybody" argument. Right?

Like there are some games that are fucking hard by design. Cuphead, Souls games, bullet hells, etc. The suggestion that bosses have a skip button means that games don't have a right to be challenging, nor do they have a right to be unforgiving. Dark Souls has the policy of "get gud or get out" and it has every right to be that way.

I am so sick of this fucking mentality that everyone has to be include, everyone should get to participate. Fuck that noise, you don't want to put in the effort to defeat a challenge? Fine. But don't act like you should get a fucking special pass that lets you skip the challenge and get right to the reward.

If a game is too hard, go play something else. Simple. No developer is required to make their game accommodate you and your lack of trying. They are obligated to provide a fair and fun challenge for as many people as are willing to take up the controller. But that doesn't mean appealing to the absolute lowest possible denominator.

Let easy games be easy and let hard games be hard and deal with it.

CritialGaming:
What I don't understand is the whole "every game should be for everybody" argument. Right?

Wrong. I don't see people in this thread arguing EVERY game should be for everybody. The article argues that, but I see no one here arguing it should be mandatory.

But if, say, Dark Souls is going to put in an easy mode, that won't lessen the sense of euphoria I get when (ok that's a lie, the sense of euphoria I get if I ever) beat Smough and Ornstein without summoning help. Also if you think Dark Souls has a policy of Git Gud or Get Out...no. Not really. Not at all. That's the toxic section of the fanbase, not the game itself. Dark Souls actually has quite a bit to allow you to adjust your difficulty. The ability to summon two helpers does that.

erttheking:

CritialGaming:
What I don't understand is the whole "every game should be for everybody" argument. Right?

Wrong. I don't see people in this thread arguing EVERY game should be for everybody. The article argues that, but I see no one here arguing it should be mandatory.

But if, say, Dark Souls is going to put in an easy mode, that won't lessen the sense of euphoria I get when (ok that's a lie, the sense of euphoria I get if I ever) beat Smough and Ornstein without summoning help. Also if you think Dark Souls has a policy of Git Gud or Get Out...no. Not really. Not at all. That's the toxic section of the fanbase, not the game itself. Dark Souls actually has quite a bit to allow you to adjust your difficulty. The ability to summon two helpers does that.

The game does promote that though, by being utterly unforgiving regardless of things you can do to make the game "easier" on yourself. The game will still absolutely punish you, it doesn't lighten up, it doesn't give you extra help, it does the same thing to everybody.

Would an outright easy mode in DS affect me? No probably not, except the temptation to drop the difficulty when shit gets too hard. It is easy to say, "Oh just let them have an easy mode because it wont effect you." But that's not true. Because the temptation of having that mode available to you is always there. Not to mention it adds a whole level of balancing work for the developers to put in.

Now I'm not opposed to easy modes if the developers want to put on it. But I'm also not going to be that dipshit who demands that every game have some sort of easy option, that every game has to cater to my tastes. Because that is what these articles always boil down to, "I didn't like this game, therefore it should change to fit me." That is a horse shit opinion and you know it.

CritialGaming:
Snip

Not the exact same thing to everyone. It doesn't do the same thing to the people who use the optional items that make the game harder.

...I'm sorry, you're tempted to drop to easy mode? Uh...if part of you wants to drop to easy mode...then drop to flipping easy mode. If the higher difficulty is getting to the point where it's so hard that it's getting in the way of you having fun, stop playing on that difficulty. Good Christ, you talk about easier difficulty modes the way most people talk about microtransactions. You don't lose money if you drop down to an easier difficulty. Balancing work? Yeah, that's in every game with difficulty modes. It seems to be manageable. I mean you brought up Cuphead as an example of a super hard game. You do know that it has an easy mode right? It asks you which difficulty you want to play before every boss fight. I pick the harder one, but that's because I find it manageable. If I didn't, I'd get fed up and pick the easy mode.

"I didn't like this game," ok, you seem to be misunderstanding the core concept of the argument. Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of people are really interested in Dark Souls but are put off by the high difficulty? I know my friend is. She has a great time when I play with her and I'm able to help her out via summons, but when we can't arrange that, she just can't make it through.

Also "dipshits", Christ, you're talking about any easier difficulty mode in gaming. Any reason the idea of someone being able to get into a game that was formerly "hardcore only" makes you so irate? I love Dark Souls and Bloodborne, some of my favorite games in recent memory. And if they get an easy mode or skipable boss in future installments, it's optional and it lets other people play? Great! The more the merrier!

erttheking:

CritialGaming:
Snip

Not the exact same thing to everyone. It doesn't do the same thing to the people who use the optional items that make the game harder.

...I'm sorry, you're tempted to drop to easy mode? Uh...if part of you wants to drop to easy mode...then drop to flipping easy mode. If the higher difficulty is getting to the point where it's so hard that it's getting in the way of you having fun, stop playing on that difficulty. Good Christ, you talk about easier difficulty modes the way most people talk about microtransactions. You don't lose money if you drop down to an easier difficulty. Balancing work? Yeah, that's in every game with difficulty modes. It seems to be manageable. I mean you brought up Cuphead as an example of a super hard game. You do know that it has an easy mode right? It asks you which difficulty you want to play before every boss fight. I pick the harder one, but that's because I find it manageable. If I didn't, I'd get fed up and pick the easy mode.

"I didn't like this game," ok, you seem to be misunderstanding the core concept of the argument. Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of people are really interested in Dark Souls but are put off by the high difficulty? I know my friend is. She has a great time when I play with her and I'm able to help her out via summons, but when we can't arrange that, she just can't make it through.

Also "dipshits", Christ, you're talking about any easier difficulty mode in gaming. Any reason the idea of someone being able to get into a game that was formerly "hardcore only" makes you so irate? I love Dark Souls and Bloodborne, some of my favorite games in recent memory. And if they get an easy mode or skipable boss in future installments, it's optional and it lets other people play? Great! The more the merrier!

But how are you playing anything is you are skipping? You aren't playing at that point.

As usual you put extra meaning into what I said what isn't there. The point was that even if you think the "easy-mode" doesn't affect you, the fact is that it does. Because when shit gets too hard, the player is aware and tempted by just dropping it to easy.

And that's fine. I think you are missing the point of my discussion by focusing on me using Dark Souls as an example. So I'll use a different game.

Let's talk a generic JRPG okay? Lets say the player gets to the end of a dungeon and get wrecked over and over. Should the game be easier, or is the player just missing something about the fight? What can be done to fix the player getting stuck here? Well maybe they just need to level up some, a couple of levels and maybe the fight wont be so bad. Maybe they are using the wrong magics against the boss and if they merely use a different spell, the boss would die much easier.

Why should it ever be remotely considered, that the player should just outright be able to skip the boss without fighting it? That takes away the very essence of playing a game. If you want to skip through everything or not overcome the challenge yourself, then go watch a youtube video of someone else playing the game because that is basically the experience you are asking for in that regard.

As for your friend and the souls series. She is put of by the "rumors" of how hard the game is, and is basically talking herself out of being able to play. She can play with you there, but I would suspect that you do most of, if not all, of the work in those sessions and she enjoys the show for the most part. That's fine! But if she is unwilling to sit through the practice and failure of trying to get through a game designed to make you retry pieces over and over again, how is that the fault of the game? Why should the developers put something in the game that goes against their vision of how the game is to be played?

That's like saying that Horror films should have a non-scary version of the film for those people who don't like to get scared. Does that really make any sense to you?

If you can't play Basketball, is it the fault of the sport, or of you? Should basketball change so that you can play?

I mean come on here man. You saw the point I made about the dude who plays WoW with is tongue right? Or the kid who plays video games with one hand? Or the blind dude who plays fighting games competitively?

No video game is out of reach of anyone who wants to get through it bad enough. NONE of them.

CritialGaming:
Snip

Hey, I'd skip some parts of Dark Souls if I could. Blight town? GOODBYE!

And I repeat myself. If you want to drop to an easier mode, do it. Seriously, what's so terrible about playing on an easier difficulty mode?

I really don't think so but ok.

Whole lot of maybes in this situation. And JRPGs are a really bad example, because those games can easily be broken by grinding. Even SMT and Persona can easily be broken if you're five levels higher than the game thinks you're supposed to be. They don't rely on high speed "think fast," reflexes the way Dark Souls does.

But if you really want to go with JRPGs, let me tell you about something. Fire Emblem is a JRPG. Fire Emblem a classic mode, where your units don't suffer perma death if they die. I had heard all sorts of terrible things about the final boss of Fire Emblem Conquest, so I turned out classic mode before I fought it. You know how it negatively impacted my experience? It didn't. It was a long grueling slog of a fight, with another fight right before it that you couldn't save in-between. If I didn't have an easy mode but the ability to skip that fight, you bet your rear I would've taken it.

No rumors, she's played it herself, she genuinely struggles with it. She mainly plays turn based games and struggles with the reflex times and awareness the game takes. Don't tell me what my friend's problem with the game, I've known her for six years, you don't even know what her name is. Their vision? You do know that Miazaki was the one who thought that the easy mode was a good idea, right? It's a little rich that you act like this is some kind of betrayal when the game devs themselves don't seem think it's that big of a deal. And "put the time in practicing?" I'm sorry, are we talking about relaxing playing games or doing our freaking chores?

More like it's acting like you're watching a movie wrong if you skip through scenes you don't like with scene select. Which I do. Frequently.

Can Basketball get a software patch to balance it out? No, it can't. Because basketball is not a video game and the comparison doesn't work at all.

Good for them. I'm not them. There's a man who deals cards blind too, good for him, I'm going to be using my eyeballs thank you very much. Yeah, I suppose I could learn how to play WoW with my tongue. But you know what? I don't fucking want to.

You make games sound like a fucking chore when put that way. I don't care for that mindset about games.

erttheking:
There's a man who deals cards blind too, good for him, I'm going to be using my eyeballs thank you very much. Yeah, I suppose I could learn how to play WoW with my tongue. But you know what? I don't fucking want to.

You make games sound like a fucking chore when put that way. I don't care for that mindset about games.

You keep missing the point. It isn't about WANT, it's about doing what you need to do in order to experience the things you love. You think the dude who is fully paralyzed WANTS to play with the tongue? NO! He can't move any other part of his body, so he has found a away to play his favorite game with what he has to work with.

That's the point.

I get it, play on easy if you want, don't play on easy if you don't. That's all fine.

On topic, we are talking about outright SKIPPING things. That is just ridiculous right? I mean how can you justify that in any sense? It actively encourages less interaction in an interactive media. At some point we have to step up to this "all-inculsive" culture and say enough is enough because it is just getting absurd. It's almost to the point of being a parody of itself.

The very nature of a game, is you present your player with a fun challenge to overcome. The opportune word there being CHALLENGE. Even the very earliest of children's games had CHALLENGE, little math puzzles or color matching tiles or typing basic words, the one constant is EVERY game is there is a challenge of one form or another. Even games that require no skill to directly play require a challenge of time, Cookie Clicker for example is a game like this.

But a skip button requires nothing from the player. There is nothing to overcome, nothing to stimulate, nothing at all.

Easy modes are fine, ultimately. Skips are not.

(FYI: you can mostly skip a lot in dark souls by simply running past everything. There are very few moments where you are actively forced to deal is non-boss sections of the game. Although even skipping Dark Souls requires a level of skill sometimes higher than just playing through the game)

CritialGaming:
Snip

And I fail to see how that's relevant, unless you're implying that reworking a game to either be easier or make it possible to skip sections is just as hard as repairing that man's nerve damage.

Is skipping things ridiculous? Not really. I can think of quite a few levels I'd skip, even in my favorite games. Blight town? Yeah, it can piss off. Actually, every person level From Software made can go to hell. And you keep going on about "all inclusive" as if it'll erode away the uber hardcore games. Clearly it won't.

I'm sorry, you're saying challenge is the fun people have in game? No. It's the fun you personally have in a game. Other people have fun in different ways in games. Plenty of people enjoy Dark Souls for its unique world and subliminal storytelling. Not just how it proves how badass they are. There's a challenge in every game? Yeah, but there would still be a challenge. No one with skip is going to sit down and skip over literally the entire game. Please don't tell other people how they enjoy a game.

Who cares? You act like people are going to sit down for five minutes, skip everything and then declare they're the best gamer ever. I see very few people paying hard earned money for that.

erttheking:

Who cares? You act like people are going to sit down for five minutes, skip everything and then declare they're the best gamer ever. I see very few people paying hard earned money for that.

That isn't at all what I am saying.

I'm saying, if you can skip the game, what was the point in "playing" in the first place.

Every game doesn't have to be for everybody. Games should NOT have to accommodate everyone.

At the end of the day, technically nothing would happen if there was a skip function in every game ever. But that doesn't make it a good thing.

I'm fine with easy modes, hell I am fine with cheats. I used God Mode to play through Starcraft 2 because I wanted to see the story. I literally could NOT loose. But I still had to take on and get through every single mission in the game. I had to build units, capture points, rescue folks, I still had to go through the gameplay. If I wanted to just skip the game, I could have saved 100 bucks and just watched it all on Youtube. Despite there being no risk and no challenge, the point is that I still PLAYED the game. You understand the difference right?

CritialGaming:
The point was that even if you think the "easy-mode" doesn't affect you, the fact is that it does. Because when shit gets too hard, the player is aware and tempted by just dropping it to easy.

Yep, the skip button would be sitting there like an evil snake with an apple. Some would have the discipline to keep trying until they persevere, some wouldn't, and many of those who gave up and skipped it would feel shitty afterward and regret it. Like a turd.

Overcoming adversity and being rewarded is a great lesson for anyone of any age. Because of this skip function, many would get a different lesson... give up at the first sign of adversity. Yeah, overall it's not that big of a deal, but it's certainly a step in the wrong direction and sends a horrible message.

Both sides have what they think are valid opinions on this matter, and "Git gud or gtfo!" is certainly as valid as "But I'm terrible and lazy and I deserve to be able to press a button and win!"

At the end of the day, there are other games that you can play if you don't like a particular one, and the developers don't have to cater to everyone. And that's not opinion, it's fact.

Kerg3927:

CritialGaming:
The point was that even if you think the "easy-mode" doesn't affect you, the fact is that it does. Because when shit gets too hard, the player is aware and tempted by just dropping it to easy.

Yep, the skip button would be sitting there like an evil snake with an apple. Some would have the discipline to keep trying until they persevere, some wouldn't, and many of those who gave up and skipped it would feel shitty afterward and regret it. Like a turd.

Overcoming adversity and being rewarded is a great lesson for anyone of any age. Because of this skip function, many would get a different lesson... give up at the first sign of adversity. Yeah, overall it's not that big of a deal, but it's certainly a step in the wrong direction and sends a horrible message.

Both sides have what they think are valid opinions on this matter, and "Git gud or gtfo!" is certainly as valid as "But I'm terrible and lazy and I deserve to be able to press a button and win!"

At the end of the day, there are other games that you can play if you don't like a particular one, and the developers don't have to cater to everyone. And that's not opinion, it's fact.

Fucking Christ! Thank you! Exactly this, this is exact the whole point.

CritialGaming:
Snip

Skip "the game?" I'm sorry, when you work it like it, it really does sound like you're expecting them to skip over the entire game. When frankly no one seems to be arguing that. It just seems like a good way to get through a section that's too frustrating.

"Every game doesn't have to be for everyone." Uh. Ok. I wasn't aware that I hadn't argued that. Because I didn't.

Still waiting for a reason why a skip function would be so terrible. Elitism is the only reason I can come up with at this point.

No. Though I think I finally get your problem. You keep saying what YOU had to do. You keep bringing it back to YOUR experience. More or less, you seem to be saying that people have to enjoy their media in the same way that you do. And if you're not saying that, then I really don't get what your problem is.

Kerg3927:
Snip

You are honestly comparing a skip button to being tempted by Satan. And you also assume everyone who ever skipped through a section feels bad about it. Well, I doubt I would. And I have this to say people who feel so terrible about skipping through a level. It's a freaking game. Lighten up. And if a section of game made you want to skip it, frankly, it didn't sound like it was worth playing. God. I wish you two got this mad about microtransactions.

Lesson? I'm sorry, games have to teach a lesson? You are honestly saying this shouldn't be done because it might send a bad message to children? The same logic used by censorship in cartoons? Should cheats not be allowed because they may send the message of "dishonesty is the way to success?"

Not really. "Git gud or gtfo" is arrogant elitism and "I'm terrible and I deserve to be able to press a button and win" is a strawman because no one has been arguing that point. No one who skips anything claims that they won anything, they just want to be able to move on and continue having fun. The fact that everyone keeps turning this into some kind of zero sum game says a lot about the attitudes behind the scenes.

You say that like you've made some kind of devastating point.

erttheking:

CritialGaming:
Snip

Skip "the game?" I'm sorry, when you work it like it, it really does sound like you're expecting them to skip over the entire game. When frankly no one seems to be arguing that. It just seems like a good way to get through a section that's too frustrating.

"Every game doesn't have to be for everyone." Uh. Ok. I wasn't aware that I hadn't argued that. Because I didn't.

You actually did argue that by bring up your girlfriend. She isn't good an reflex based action games, yet she has interest in Bloodborne. So you directly paired up a game with a person who the game just isn't for. Rather than just saying, "Hey Bloodborne isn't for her. It's a shame but that's the way it is." So you are effectively saying that the game should be for everyone. Now whether you mean adding a skip, or an easy function doesn't really matter because the basis of the point is there.

erttheking:

Not really. " "I'm terrible and I deserve to be able to press a button and win" is a strawman because no one has been arguing that point.

No one has been arguing that point? Really? Then why the fuck are we talking about a skip button. It's entire function is to dismiss a portion of the game to win because the person playing can't be bothered with trying legitimately.

It is okay for games to be hard!

It is okay for someone to not be able to beat a game!

It is NOT okay for anyone and everyone to have a simple "I win" button out of that.

CritialGaming:
Snip

...Friend. Not girlfriend. Read my posts before you reply to me. If you're getting basic info like that wrong, you're not reading them properly. Now please go back and point out where I was talking about how and said "and therefore, every game should appeal to everyone." You can't. Because I wasn't. I was just pointing out the potential positives of skipping. Stop relying so much on strawman arguments.

You miss my point. No one is saying "I'm terrible and deserve to press a button and win," because that's a all stuff you and the other guy are stuffing into the conversation because, for some godforsaken reason, the concept seems to piss you off. No one is saying they're terrible, that's other people insulting them, and no one is bringing up anything about "winning" you're injecting that into the conversation too. It's not ok. Why? Tell me something. Why do you see someone skipping over something that's too much for them as them saying "I win?" Because you seem to be assuming an awful lot. And it's making me think of a certain word that starts with the letter E.

Now I'm going to give you some advice and I hope you listen to it. People enjoy games in a different way than you that doesn't prove how uber good they are. It doesn't affect your life or enjoyment of the game. Stop getting so worked up over it. Good god, you're acting like Mr. Incredible, as if this is somehow "celebrating mediocrity" or whatever it is you're so upset about.

erttheking:

...Friend. Not girlfriend. Read my posts before you reply to me.

Friend who is a girl then. I should have added a space. Girl friend. Female Friend.

People enjoy games in a different way than you that doesn't prove how uber good they are. It doesn't affect your life or enjoyment of the game. Stop getting so worked up over it.

What are you enjoying by skipping? If you want to just see the story of a game, or certain parts or whatever, but don't want to actually put effort into the game, then why don't you just watch it on Youtube? What part of not playing a game provides enjoyment. That is the part I am missing.

Give me one example of how not-playing a game is more fun than playing a game, and I'll simply ask you why you are forcing yourself to play something that is un-fun?

I'm not worked up about it. You should know when I am worked up about something because I'll use WAY more swears.

What I am, though, is trying to explain why a skip button is not a good thing for gaming in anyway. Because it absolutely rewards players for not accomplishing shit.

In one of my previous posts I told you about how I used God-mode to get through starcraft 2? You read that part right? You didn't mention it, or offer a counter as to why a cheat code wasn't a good alternative to a skip button. So if a section sucks, Blight-town for example because you love Blight Town.

erttheking:
Blight Town and poison area's in the Dark Souls games are the best!

Would you not just be happy with a toggle-able god-mode? I mean you couldn't die, and there is no risk to anything happening to you, but you would STILL have to PLAY through those sections. You could still hunt the items, laugh as you overpower all the shitty bugs, and you'd get through that portion of the game without the stress of doing it for "real".

Is that not a fair solution? Doesn't it sound better than a skip?

CritialGaming:
Snip

Friend will do.

The rest of the game.

The strawman argument here, as well as the thing you seem to struggle with, is that they're not skipping over the entire game. Just certain sections that are too much.

You said "fuck" four times in the first post I replied to, and in the second post you called people who want this "dipshit." I'm just saying.

And what is so terrible about this? Because, to be frank, you sound like you're talking about the effing evils of Communism for the love of god, and how everyone will be lazy because of it. It rewards people for doing nothing. Well, that's one way of putting "I can't beat this level, can I actually play the rest of the game?"

No, I responded to it. You asked if I saw the difference, and I said no. Just a flat out no. Because I don't and I still do. And then I talked about how you were making the situation about how you played the games and how people had to play the games the same way that you did, according to you.

No. Because I don't want to have anything to do with Blightown if I can. The slug through the marsh at the bottom is a pain in the ass, regardless of whether or not it poisons me. Sure, plenty of people would prefer the god mode over skipping, I get that. I'm not one of them. And you preferring it over the skip is fine, but it's kind of eyebrow raising that you want other people to take the path you find preferable, even though it doesn't affect you in any way.

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