David Cage tackles domestic abuse in latest Detroit: BH trailer.

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This is probably a couple of days old, but I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, and not sure whether this is the most applicable sub-forum, but whatevs... Everybody's favourite videogame writer obsessed with the very thing he may never be able to understand (emotions) has decided it is time to aim for the ultimate writing taboo that nobody has ever tried before; domestic abuse.

"That's a bit of mature subject, isn't it, Xsjado?" Why yes it is, eager reader, like, say, multiple attempted rape scenarios and unnecessary extended female shower scenes...which is why it's lucky we have someone as talented as Cage at the helm, who has effortlessly ripped off every good and bad movie he has seen and mashed them together into videogames, hoping nobody would notice. Anyhow, let me not taint any opinions, decide for yourselves with the trailer below, and try not to confuse the actual alright music composition with the emotions you get from the script itself, that's an common technique.

So...feelings? Emotions? What has it succeeded in producing? Am going to refrain from putting too much of my own thoughts at moment.

Here's an interview with the man himself on the content: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-31-david-cage-on-detroit-and-its-depiction-of-domestic-violence

Remember, he didn't choose the subject matter...it chose him!

There is a far more opinionated collection of thoughts by Jim Sterling that may be of interest to some.

This is actually in extremely interesting scenario how it's initially presented. You have an adroid in service of a household where it knows something is obviously amiss, but it being an android can't directly go against its owner. If this was presented as a situation where you need to find some loophole around the android's programming so it can save the little girl, that'd be really cool.

But David Cage...

Still, I'll give him some kudos for not showing the female protagonist in a rape scenario, though that might change once the game is out.

I can't wait for a feminist to complain about the father treating the maid as an "inhuman object" is blah blah blah patriarchy only to be told she's an android and so in some respect really is an "inhuman object".

Anyways there's not enough info to say how good it will be, the best I've seen is Witcher 3 as "2 flawed people goading each other due to suffering from their own past" the worst is the standard "evil father without reason for is violence".

inu-kun:
I can't wait for a feminist to complain about the father treating the maid as an "inhuman object" is blah blah blah patriarchy only to be told she's an android and so in some respect really is an "inhuman object".

Anyways there's not enough info to say how good it will be, the best I've seen is Witcher 3 as "2 flawed people goading each other due to suffering from their own past" the worst is the standard "evil father without reason for is violence".

I swear, I hear more about people complaining about feminism than I do actual feminists complaining nowadays. Preemptive complaining at that.

OT: David Cage? Yeah, hopes aren't high. Interesting concept...but fucking Cage.

Splatoon 2 designer:

I'm stereotyping, but in the West, scope, visuals, and features are the main attraction. For example, when we used to have Kojima Productions L.A. -- we had an office in Los Angeles -- we would get proposals for new games, pitches. It always started with: "This is the world you're in. This is the experience I'm going to give you." And gameplay was relegated to page 5 or 6 or 10. It was always about who you're playing, who is the character, what's going on, but not the "how," how am I playing this?

In Japan, a pitch is a page, maybe two. The first page you write what the game is about and how you play it. And the second page, maybe you need an illustration. We don't care about who, or what the story is, what the game world is, all of this doesn't really matter.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/splatoon-2-hideo-kojima-nintendo-japanese-games-w501322

No wonder most games suck nowadays.

Ezekiel:
Splatoon 2 designer:

I'm stereotyping, but in the West, scope, visuals, and features are the main attraction. For example, when we used to have Kojima Productions L.A. -- we had an office in Los Angeles -- we would get proposals for new games, pitches. It always started with: "This is the world you're in. This is the experience I'm going to give you." And gameplay was relegated to page 5 or 6 or 10. It was always about who you're playing, who is the character, what's going on, but not the "how," how am I playing this?

In Japan, a pitch is a page, maybe two. The first page you write what the game is about and how you play it. And the second page, maybe you need an illustration. We don't care about who, or what the story is, what the game world is, all of this doesn't really matter.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/splatoon-2-hideo-kojima-nintendo-japanese-games-w501322

No wonder most games suck nowadays.

Western games focus more on the story?

Struggling to see the problem. Particularly when the guy admitted he was stereotyping.

Also, what does this have to do with anything?

What is Cage getting out of this that he couldn't possibly get in spades just by making movies?

Johnny Novgorod:
What is Cage getting out of this that he couldn't possibly get in spades just by making movies?

Less criticism towards his writing, and fans that don't watch many or any movies?

Johnny Novgorod:
What is Cage getting out of this that he couldn't possibly get in spades just by making movies?

Lower standards of storytelling? Maybe Hollywood producers would laugh in his face.

Ezekiel:

Johnny Novgorod:
What is Cage getting out of this that he couldn't possibly get in spades just by making movies?

Lower standards of storytelling? Maybe Hollywood producers would laugh in his face.

I'm definitely going to go with this.

Ezekiel:

Johnny Novgorod:
What is Cage getting out of this that he couldn't possibly get in spades just by making movies?

Lower standards of storytelling? Maybe Hollywood producers would laugh in his face.

I think he is addicted to the idea of organic storytelling but:
a) From Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit seems to be unable to end them well.
b) Doesn't realize that because a lack of an infinite budget organic games don't really change much.

If this well-grounded sci-fi story doesn't turn into a Matrix rip-off half way through, I'll be thoroughly disappointed.

erttheking:

Ezekiel:
Splatoon 2 designer:

I'm stereotyping, but in the West, scope, visuals, and features are the main attraction. For example, when we used to have Kojima Productions L.A. -- we had an office in Los Angeles -- we would get proposals for new games, pitches. It always started with: "This is the world you're in. This is the experience I'm going to give you." And gameplay was relegated to page 5 or 6 or 10. It was always about who you're playing, who is the character, what's going on, but not the "how," how am I playing this?

In Japan, a pitch is a page, maybe two. The first page you write what the game is about and how you play it. And the second page, maybe you need an illustration. We don't care about who, or what the story is, what the game world is, all of this doesn't really matter.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/splatoon-2-hideo-kojima-nintendo-japanese-games-w501322

No wonder most games suck nowadays.

Western games focus more on the story?

Struggling to see the problem. Particularly when the guy admitted he was stereotyping.

Also, what does this have to do with anything?

Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

hanselthecaretaker:

erttheking:

Ezekiel:
Splatoon 2 designer:

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/splatoon-2-hideo-kojima-nintendo-japanese-games-w501322

No wonder most games suck nowadays.

Western games focus more on the story?

Struggling to see the problem. Particularly when the guy admitted he was stereotyping.

Also, what does this have to do with anything?

Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

Really how often does it do that? And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

And again, this has what do with this thread?

erttheking:
Really how often does it do that? And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

That's funny.

And again, this has what do with this thread?

With people like David Cage? Everything.

Ezekiel:

erttheking:
Really how often does it do that? And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

That's funny.

And again, this has what do with this thread?

With people like David Cage? Everything.

It's funny that this is somehow a controversial statement. Sorry did I say funny? I meant sad.

Cage is very much an outlier in the AAA industry, seriously, no one compares to him. So the comment about the industry still feels off topic.

erttheking:

Ezekiel:

erttheking:
Really how often does it do that? And for each West game, a Japanese one probably does it he same.

That's funny.

And again, this has what do with this thread?

With people like David Cage? Everything.

It's funny that this is somehow a controversial statement. Sorry did I say funny? I meant sad.

Controversial? No. Just funny.

Cage is very much an outlier in the AAA industry, seriously, no one compares to him.

Many of the AAA single player devs are obsessed with storytelling, at the expense of gameplay. I don't remember the last AAA game I played with great gameplay, where the story didn't incessantly drag me away from playing it. Westerners think games are immature and need to be more like other storytelling mediums, especially film.

It's an advertisement. I have by rule of thumb not to judge games by their advertisements, as they frequently aren't representative enough of their game. The advertisement itself, well, I don't have much to say. It's not awful, and it's obvious they are going for the shock value there (so overdramatic I almost laughed when the father flipped the table aside). I don't hate it, and I almost liked it; but he has made better short videos.

Ezekiel:

erttheking:

Ezekiel:
That's funny.

With people like David Cage? Everything.

It's funny that this is somehow a controversial statement. Sorry did I say funny? I meant sad.

Controversial? No. Just funny.

Cage is very much an outlier in the AAA industry, seriously, no one compares to him.

Many of the AAA single player devs are obsessed with storytelling, at the expense of gameplay. I don't remember the last AAA game I played with great gameplay, where the story didn't incessantly drag me away from playing it.

...you say I'm being funny then you say AAA devs care about story more than gameplay? I'm sorry what? Mayhaps you can give me some examples? I'm struggling to remember where a story truly detracted from a game. Unless you're arguing a story interrupting gameplay at all takes away from a game, which is a mindset that would highly limit games. If anything, open world games have gameplay eat away at story. Very few are like the Witcher 3 and give their side quests story, it's just mindless repetitive busywork.

erttheking:

Ezekiel:

erttheking:

It's funny that this is somehow a controversial statement. Sorry did I say funny? I meant sad.

Controversial? No. Just funny.

Cage is very much an outlier in the AAA industry, seriously, no one compares to him.

Many of the AAA single player devs are obsessed with storytelling, at the expense of gameplay. I don't remember the last AAA game I played with great gameplay, where the story didn't incessantly drag me away from playing it.

...you say I'm being funny then you say AAA devs care about story more than gameplay? I'm sorry what? Mayhaps you can give me some examples? I'm struggling to remember where a story truly detracted from a game. Unless you're arguing a story interrupting gameplay at all takes away from a game, which is a mindset that would highly limit games. If anything, open world games have gameplay eat away at story. Very few are like the Witcher 3 and give their side quests story, it's just mindless repetitive busywork.

I'm not gonna list them. That would be ridiculous.

Scripted setpieces, forced walking (and talking), cutscenes and in-game sequences that might as well be cutscenes. To use a recent example, Wolfenstein II is said to have a ratio of 60 percent gameplay and the rest story, including sequences that have very little if any player agency.

Realism and authenticity is a part of it too. A part of storytelling. The reason running and gunning is fading away and iron sights are so overemphasized is because this kind of slow gameplay is considered authentic. Level design has become really bad because the maps need to be so realistic now or they're purely in service of the story.

I managed to watch the video for 2 minutes before I had to stop because it's just terrible.

Ezekiel:

erttheking:

Ezekiel:
Controversial? No. Just funny.

Many of the AAA single player devs are obsessed with storytelling, at the expense of gameplay. I don't remember the last AAA game I played with great gameplay, where the story didn't incessantly drag me away from playing it.

...you say I'm being funny then you say AAA devs care about story more than gameplay? I'm sorry what? Mayhaps you can give me some examples? I'm struggling to remember where a story truly detracted from a game. Unless you're arguing a story interrupting gameplay at all takes away from a game, which is a mindset that would highly limit games. If anything, open world games have gameplay eat away at story. Very few are like the Witcher 3 and give their side quests story, it's just mindless repetitive busywork.

I'm not gonna list them. That would be ridiculous.

Scripted setpieces, forced walking (and talking), cutscenes and in-game sequences that might as well be cutscenes. To use a recent example, Wolfenstein II is said to have a ratio of 60 percent gameplay and the rest story, including sequences that have very little if any player agency.

Realism and authenticity is a part of it too. A part of storytelling. The reason running and gunning is fading away and iron sights are so overemphasized is because this kind of slow gameplay is considered authentic. Level design has become really bad because the maps need to be so realistic now or they're purely in service of the story.

A few examples won't kill you.

Seriously struggling to think of any games that do that in a way that seriously hurt the game.

Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one. Particularly since the new Wolfenstein did this, the new Doom didn't and both had great stories on top of having fun gameplay.

hanselthecaretaker:
Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

Where does that border lie then? Should every game have a particular story to gameplay ratio? Wouldn't that make games awfully homogenized? Does every game need to be Doom '16? I say this because I kinda like that games can be whatever we want them to be, whether it be gameplay centric, story heavy, or even text based.

And also, Japan is the home of the JRPG and visual novel. Two genres that are all about the world, story, and characters. Two recent examples being Persona 5 and Yakuza 0; Both games that were highly praised despite them involving little more than walking to the next story sequence (some of those sequences being of substantial length).

I always find it odd that this 'story compromising gameplay' critique is only ever labled at western games, eventhough Japan is just as "guilty".

erttheking:
Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one.

You ignored my point. I don't wanna waste my time again. Bye.

Ezekiel:

erttheking:
Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one.

You ignored my point. I don't wanna waste my time again. Bye.

Not really. And too late, you already spent an hour or two arguing with me.

Casual Shinji:

hanselthecaretaker:
Storytelling is great, but not when it compromises gameplay. The west is especially in love with cinema and these developers realize it, but trying to marry it with gameplay is a fine art in itself that very few have proven able to pull off convincingly.

Where does that border lie then? Should every game have a particular story to gameplay ratio? Wouldn't that make games awfully homogenized? Does every game need to be Doom '16? I say this because I kinda like that games can be whatever we want them to be, whether it be gameplay centric, story heavy, or even text based.

And also, Japan is the home of the JRPG and visual novel. Two genres that are all about the world, story, and characters. Two recent examples being Persona 5 and Yakuza 0; Both games that were highly praised despite them involving little more than walking to the next story sequence (some of those sequences being of substantial length).

I always find it odd that this 'story compromising gameplay' critique is only ever labled at western games, eventhough Japan is just as "guilty".

Japan is often viewed through rose tinted glasses. Some people think devs there have total freedom which is...yeah no.

erttheking:

Ezekiel:

erttheking:
Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one.

You ignored my point. I don't wanna waste my time again. Bye.

Not really. And too late, you already spent an hour or two arguing with me.

It wasn't so much an argument as stating the obvious. Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years. And it wasn't an hour or two. I was playing Max Payne 3 all that time.

Ezekiel:

erttheking:

Ezekiel:
You ignored my point. I don't wanna waste my time again. Bye.

Not really. And too late, you already spent an hour or two arguing with me.

It wasn't so much an argument as stating the obvious. Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years. And it wasn't an hour or two. I was playing Max Payne 3 all that time.

A very shallow explanation and interpretation if I do say so myself. Poorly supported too.

And so much for not wasting your time. It's amazing how often people act like they're done and leaving, but they end up having to say it two or three times before they actually follow through.

erttheking:

Ezekiel:

erttheking:

Not really. And too late, you already spent an hour or two arguing with me.

It wasn't so much an argument as stating the obvious. Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years. And it wasn't an hour or two. I was playing Max Payne 3 all that time.

A very shallow explanation and interpretation if I do say so myself. Poorly supported too.

And so much for not wasting your time.

Whatever you say. I find it interesting that you're so apologetic of these games. Well, I guess they know their audience.

Ezekiel:

erttheking:

Ezekiel:
It wasn't so much an argument as stating the obvious. Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years. And it wasn't an hour or two. I was playing Max Payne 3 all that time.

A very shallow explanation and interpretation if I do say so myself. Poorly supported too.

And so much for not wasting your time.

Whatever you say. I find it interesting that you're so apologetic of these games. Well, I guess they know their audience.

I don't even know what "these" games are unless you're talking about every western game made in the last ten years. If you're going to insult me, have the guts to be direct about it. That and, you know, use an actual insult and not a weaksauce one like that.

And again. So much for not wasting your time.

That was...interesting.

I don't think this is really groundbreaking, if only because the trailer is so melodramatic that it loses a lot of its potential impact. If anything, what's more impactful is the difference between Detroit proper and the place where the house is - gap between rich and poor and all that. And how much do androids cost in this world anyway?

But on the other hand, kudos for at least trying to address the subject. And at the least, I haven't seen an android in this position in fiction before.

Casual Shinji:
This is actually in extremely interesting scenario how it's initially presented. You have an adroid in service of a household where it knows something is obviously amiss, but it being an android can't directly go against its owner.

Three Laws of Robotics anyone?

It's an interesting dilemma.

Ezekiel:
Splatoon 2 designer:

I'm stereotyping, but in the West, scope, visuals, and features are the main attraction. For example, when we used to have Kojima Productions L.A. -- we had an office in Los Angeles -- we would get proposals for new games, pitches. It always started with: "This is the world you're in. This is the experience I'm going to give you." And gameplay was relegated to page 5 or 6 or 10. It was always about who you're playing, who is the character, what's going on, but not the "how," how am I playing this?

In Japan, a pitch is a page, maybe two. The first page you write what the game is about and how you play it. And the second page, maybe you need an illustration. We don't care about who, or what the story is, what the game world is, all of this doesn't really matter.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/splatoon-2-hideo-kojima-nintendo-japanese-games-w501322

No wonder most games suck nowadays.

So...another reason why I'm not interested in Splatoon then?

I jest, but if anything, it's either the other way round, or a gross simplifaction. In the West, many publishers/developers are moving away from story-driven, singleplayer games. Not too long ago Visceral Games bit the dust, today, I learnt that Runic Games bit the dust because its mother company wanted to focus on its "games as a service" nonsense, there's a glut of multiplayer-only games, etc. And while I can enjoy multiplayer-only games in short doses, singleplayer, narrative-driven games look like an endangered species. Japan, at the least, is still a bastion of singleplayer, narrative-driven games at least.

Ezekiel:
Many of the AAA single player devs are obsessed with storytelling, at the expense of gameplay. I don't remember the last AAA game I played with great gameplay, where the story didn't incessantly drag me away from playing it. Westerners think games are immature and need to be more like other storytelling mediums, especially film.

Don't know what you're talking about, Western developers are focusing far more on gameplay and less on story. I've mentioned the examples up above, but this is part of a trend that's been going on for awhile.

erttheking:

Also less run and gun = story's fault? A stretch if ever I heard one. Particularly since the new Wolfenstein did this, the new Doom didn't and both had great stories on top of having fun gameplay.

...Doom had a "great story?"

Yeah, okay, it's at least a primarily singleplayer game in a world where that's becoming a rarity, but I can't give its story that many (or rather, barely any) props. Nor its gameplay for that matter.

...Christ, how did things get so bad that I had to defend Doom 2016? :(

Casual Shinji:

And also, Japan is the home of the JRPG and visual novel. Two genres that are all about the world, story, and characters. Two recent examples being Persona 5 and Yakuza 0; Both games that were highly praised despite them involving little more than walking to the next story sequence (some of those sequences being of substantial length).

I always find it odd that this 'story compromising gameplay' critique is only ever labled at western games, eventhough Japan is just as "guilty".

Basically this.

Ezekiel:
Frankly, it's ridiculous that I even had to explain the clear trend of the last ten years.

What trend? Because if we go back ten years, okay, maybe there was a shift towards narrative and linearity, but what about the 2010s? Linearity was once a dirty word, now open world is the new dirty word. Not to mention the multiplayer shift that's going on.

These are simplifications, and I'm a lot more forgiving than I've seen many others, but there's hardly one monolithic trend in the West right now. And if there is, it certainly isn't towards narrative, singleplayer games.

erttheking:

Ezekiel:

erttheking:

A very shallow explanation and interpretation if I do say so myself. Poorly supported too.

And so much for not wasting your time.

Whatever you say. I find it interesting that you're so apologetic of these games. Well, I guess they know their audience.

I don't even know what "these" games are unless you're talking about every western game made in the last ten years. If you're going to insult me, have the guts to be direct about it. That and, you know, use an actual insult and not a weaksauce one like that.

And again. So much for not wasting your time.

Meh. I don't like insulting people. I was gonna insult you for being obtuse after your first reply, but then I decided to just leave it. But then you repeatedly denied what's happening with AAA games and conveniently misinterpreted something I said. Wasting my time would be having a three page argument with you. I know how people like you are. Examples? I thought, yeah, this guy is hellbent on wasting my time. You'd have to be living under a rock not to see it. The Splatoon guy is right. It's about story and "experience" first.

Ezekiel:

erttheking:

Ezekiel:
Whatever you say. I find it interesting that you're so apologetic of these games. Well, I guess they know their audience.

I don't even know what "these" games are unless you're talking about every western game made in the last ten years. If you're going to insult me, have the guts to be direct about it. That and, you know, use an actual insult and not a weaksauce one like that.

And again. So much for not wasting your time.

Meh. I don't like insulting people. I was gonna insult you for being obtuse after your first reply, but then I decided to just leave it. But then you repeatedly denied what's happening with AAA games and conveniently misinterpreted something I said. Wasting my time would be having a three page argument with you. I know how people like you are. Examples? I thought, yeah, this guy is hellbent on wasting my time. You'd have to be living under a rock not to see it. The Splatoon guy is right. It's about story and "experience" first.

Funny. I legit have no idea what the heck you're talking about with these trends because you never explained yourself properly by giving a single bloody example. As Hawki pointed out your criticisms of the industry are radically out of date. And I didn't misrepresent jack. You basically said increased realism was the fault of story. You said it, hell if I know why. Your problem, not mine.

And still no examples. And you have the gall to call me obtuse. But don't let me get in the way of you declaring yourself right, don't want to rain on your parade with sense and reason.

Wintermute:
I managed to watch the video for 2 minutes before I had to stop because it's just terrible.

Twas my initial reaction. Cage is like an alien trying to mimic humanity through all the films he's seen. Approaching this subject matter is going to be painful mess with him but he will still remain bafflingly pretentious and proud of it all.

erttheking:
And still no examples. And you have the gall to call me obtuse.

Uh, yes, I did. Wolfenstein II is similar to a lot of games. This is why I didn't wanna bother. Obtuse. Denial.

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