Doom switch edition is out

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Casual Shinji:
Yes, it's the superior version, because... it's....... portable? Who needs better picture, better framerate, better sound, and better controls (the joycons have pin needles for buttons) for a lower price when you have portability.

Look, the Switch is nice for whatever exclussives it'll get, but for any multiplatform game you're paying more for something that is worse from a technical standpoint. If these games were cheaper on the Switch than they are on the PC/PS4/Xbone you could have a good deal, but they're not, they're more expensive.

It's all a matter of perspective, honestly. On one hand, you have the graphically, and PS4, Xbox, and PC versions, and their better visuals and framerate. On the other hand, you have the Switch port, which trades them for portability. Some would prefer one, others would prefer the other. Either way, gotta admit that it's impressive that Doom was downported to the Switch at all, and, all things considered, aside from it's 30 FPS lock & lower visuals, it's a pretty good port for what they were working with.

Casual Shinji:

Yoshi178:
inferior version?

more like the superior version unless you're "desperate" as you say, to sacrifice portabilty just to only have a SLIGHTLY prettier picture on your TV.

Yes, it's the superior version, because... it's....... portable? Who needs better picture, better framerate, better sound, and better controls (the joycons have pin needles for buttons) for a lower price when you have portability.

better controls? pretty sure the Switch Pro Controller exists and plays games just fine.

have fun being tethered to the TV with your slightly prettier picture for games though while i enjoy playing my switch on my tv at home, at my friends house's, on the train to work, in the lunch room at work or wherever the hell i want to play it.

DarklordKyo:
It's all a matter of perspective, honestly. On one hand, you have the graphically, and PS4, Xbox, and PC versions, and their better visuals and framerate. On the other hand, you have the Switch port, which trades them for portability. Some would prefer one, others would prefer the other. Either way, gotta admit that it's impressive that Doom was downported to the Switch at all, and, all things considered, aside from it's 30 FPS lock & lower visuals, it's a pretty good port for what they were working with.

This would be A-OK if the game wasn't sold for 60 bucks.

Seriously, the price for these ports is the biggest problem. I'm not expecting them to run as good as the do on PC/PS4/Xbone, since that's obviously not going to happen. But charging more?!

Yoshi178:
have fun being tethered to the TV with your slightly prettier picture for games though.

Yes, because I want to be outside, or on a bus, or sitting under a tree when I'm playing Doom, Wolfenstein, or L.A. Noire on a tiny screen, instead of my cozy house, sitting in a compfy chair with a drink and snack and my home theater system. I also feel tethered watching a movie on my TV as opposed to on my phone while sitting in a waiting room.

Casual Shinji:

DarklordKyo:
It's all a matter of perspective, honestly. On one hand, you have the graphically, and PS4, Xbox, and PC versions, and their better visuals and framerate. On the other hand, you have the Switch port, which trades them for portability. Some would prefer one, others would prefer the other. Either way, gotta admit that it's impressive that Doom was downported to the Switch at all, and, all things considered, aside from it's 30 FPS lock & lower visuals, it's a pretty good port for what they were working with.

This would be A-OK if the game wasn't sold for 60 bucks.

Seriously, the price for these ports is the biggest problem. I'm not expecting them to run as good as the do on PC/PS4/Xbone, since that's obviously not going to happen. But charging more?!

DOOM and especially Skyrim will more than likely be part of sales and be thrown in the bargain bin within 6-12 months time. or did you forget that these things exist?

games will always be at their most expensive when they first release no matter what platform they get released on. pretty sure the PS4 and Xbox One versions of Skyrim were also expensive when they first came out in 2016 as well despite being an old game.

Casual Shinji:

Yoshi178:
have fun being tethered to the TV with your slightly prettier picture for games though.

Yes, because I want to be outside, or on a bus, or sitting under a tree when I'm playing Doom, Wolfenstein, or L.A. Noire on a tiny screen, instead of my cozy house, sitting in a compfy chair with a drink and snack and my home theater system. I also feel tethered watching a movie on my TV as opposed to on my phone while sitting in a waiting room.

hey guess what? i can be at my cozy house, sitting in my comfy chair with a drink and snack and my home theater system too. and that's fine if you don't feel tethered there, doesn't change the fact that your PS4/Xbone is tied to your TV at home though if you want to play DOOM whereas i can take my Switch and a Switch copy of DOOM wherever and whenever i want with total ease.

not so easy, with PS4 and xbox one though. but your picture is slightly prettier on your TV so yay?

Hawki:

Oi!

People can rag on Doom 2016 all they want as far as I'm concerned, but the music is one of the best parts of the game.

It's nothing special, some riffs combined with... dubstep or something electro, bass-heavy. There are good riffs and therefore potentially good metal in this ost, but this bass-heavy electro stuff absolutely ruins it for me. I like both, but seperated (or better combined). Also, it sometimes felt like it didn't want to move on, staying on the same dubstep-riff like it would matter.

And on top of that, it's dynamically implemented. I played Doom 2016 during a free weekend, didn't finish it (didn't even get that far), but sometimes I questioned if there is music playing at all.

This is what's up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q657rEkgfKs&list=PL2trYUpmh1eSosLpXYgjZlrHvOrbeU6aE

But don't get fooled by me: This is -highly- subjective. I just am disappointed that the metal is so weak. :/

Naldan:

Hawki:

Oi!

People can rag on Doom 2016 all they want as far as I'm concerned, but the music is one of the best parts of the game.

It's nothing special, some riffs combined with... dubstep or something electro, bass-heavy. There are good riffs and therefore potentially good metal in this ost, but this bass-heavy electro stuff absolutely ruins it for me. I like both, but seperated (or better combined). Also, it sometimes felt like it didn't want to move on, staying on the same dubstep-riff like it would matter.

And on top of that, it's dynamically implemented. I played Doom 2016 during a free weekend, didn't finish it (didn't even get that far), but sometimes I questioned if there is music playing at all.

This is what's up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q657rEkgfKs&list=PL2trYUpmh1eSosLpXYgjZlrHvOrbeU6aE

But don't get fooled by me: This is -highly- subjective. I just am disappointed that the metal is so weak. :/

Totally agree. Weird that I'm the exact opposite of Hawki. I thought Doom was generally good and had weak music.

Yoshi178:
Pretty sure games like Rocket League, Sonic Forces, WWE 2k18 and Fifa 18 are all current generation games.

but i'm sure you'll make up some excuse as to why those don't count too...

Rocket League came out two years ago and it's on the (nowadays ancient) Unreal Engine 3. (Not dissing the UE3 though. It's a great engine.) but OK. Sonic Forces could probably have easily ran on the 360. As to WWE/Fifa, I guess. They often shovel those out though with hardly any updates.

Yoshi178:
DOOM and especially Skyrim will more than likely be part of sales and be thrown in the bargain bin within 6-12 months time. or did you forget that these things exist?

How is that different from nearly every other game? Doom for the Switch should've been 30 bucks from the start at maximum.

games will always be at their most expensive when they first release no matter what platform they get released on. pretty sure the PS4 and Xbox One versions of Skyrim were also expensive when they first came out in 2016 as well despite being an old game.

The difference there being there were actual visual enhancements, along with including all the DLC. This is just the same Doom, looking worse, running worse, for 40 bucks more than on the other systems.

Casual Shinji:

Yoshi178:
DOOM and especially Skyrim will more than likely be part of sales and be thrown in the bargain bin within 6-12 months time. or did you forget that these things exist?

How is that different from nearly every other game? Doom for the Switch should've been 30 bucks from the start at maximum.

wah wah wah. so should have alot of ports like Skyrim Remastered, GTAV remastered and The Last of Us remastered but they weren't 30 bucks when they came out now were they? just because they have a slightly prettier picture than the original version doesn't mean they should cost $60 at release but they do anyway.

it's only not ok when Nintendo does it.

Casual Shinji:

games will always be at their most expensive when they first release no matter what platform they get released on. pretty sure the PS4 and Xbox One versions of Skyrim were also expensive when they first came out in 2016 as well despite being an old game.

The difference there being there were actual visual enhancements, along with including all the DLC. This is just the same Doom, looking worse, running worse, for 40 bucks more than on the other systems.

the enhancement with DOOM Switch is that you can play it on the tv and take it on the go. not everything is about how pretty a game looks on your tv/Monitor. something you definitely can't do on PS4, Xbox One or PC.

some of us prefer practicality over performance.

Arnoxthe1:

Yoshi178:
Pretty sure games like Rocket League, Sonic Forces, WWE 2k18 and Fifa 18 are all current generation games.

but i'm sure you'll make up some excuse as to why those don't count too...

Rocket League came out two years ago and it's on the (nowadays ancient) Unreal Engine 3. (Not dissing the UE3 though. It's a great engine.) but OK. Sonic Forces could probably have easily ran on the 360. As to WWE/Fifa, I guess. They often shovel those out though with hardly any updates.

Shin Megami Tensei 5.

Yoshi178:
Shin Megami Tensei 5.

Wasn't that originally a Nintendo DS series? Also, we don't even know what it looks like yet. Stop reaching.

Yoshi178:
wah wah wah. so should have alot of ports like Skyrim Remastered, GTAV remastered and The Last of Us remastered but they weren't 30 bucks when they came out now were they? just because they have a slightly prettier picture than the original version doesn't mean they should cost $60 at release but they do anyway.

it's only not ok when Nintendo does it.

*clears throat* Those games actually looked and ran better, and had DLC included. And they didn't go for 60 bucks.

And who says I'm criticizing Nintendo -- I don't know who set the price for this game on the Switch.

the enhancement with DOOM Switch is that you can play it on the tv and take it on the go. not everything is about how pretty a game looks on your tv/Monitor. something you definitely can't do on PS4, Xbox One or PC.

some of us prefer practicality over performance.

Hey, if that's worth paying 40 bucks more at the expense of visuals and framerate, by all means, enjoy your practicality.

Arnoxthe1:

Yoshi178:
Shin Megami Tensei 5.

Wasn't that originally a Nintendo DS series? Also, we don't even know what it looks like yet. Stop reaching.

Persona is literally a spin off series of the Shin Megami Tensei franchise.

Casual Shinji:
*clears throat* Those games actually looked and ran better, and had DLC included. And they didn't go for 60 bucks.

DOOM on Switch comes with all the DLC that was put on Xbox One and PS4 and so does Rocket League...

I like threads like these cause it shows the sort of people that would mindlessly argue for a corporation. Then again I can guess that with profile pics Glad you are enjoying the game! Don't have a switch myself but I want to get it on my xbox one but I don't want a backlog of games. How does it feel to control with the joycons? Those always felt awkward to me when I tried them

Yoshi178:
the enhancement with DOOM Switch is that you can play it on the tv and take it on the go. not everything is about how pretty a game looks on your tv/Monitor. something you definitely can't do on PS4, Xbox One or PC.

some of us prefer practicality over performance.

OT: Don't own it but I like the box art
Really says "DOOM" on the display shelf

kenu12345:
I like threads like these cause it shows the sort of people that would mindlessly argue for a corporation.

For AND against it seems.
OT Its a nice too see more and more games coming to Switch all though im way backed up with games for it and with Xenoblade 2 coming soon I probably wont be playing anything else. Plus it really is way too expensive with other platforms having it so cheap now. ?20-?25 would of been the sweet spot for now I think.

kenu12345:
I like threads like these cause it shows the sort of people that would mindlessly argue for a corporation. Then again I can guess that with profile pics Glad you are enjoying the game! Don't have a switch myself but I want to get it on my xbox one but I don't want a backlog of games. How does it feel to control with the joycons? Those always felt awkward to me when I tried them

Actually, I realise that there's seems to be a lag on the vertical axis. If you push the joystick up there's a lag of about half a second before the camera actually start to move. Other than that, I don't think the joycons are that bad. But I think the game would have benefit of the gyroscopic aiming. I played a couple round of splatoon after playing doom, and the aiming is much better in splatoon.

However I wait for the pro controller to be in sale to get one (because in Canada with sales taxes each game goes for 91$ and the pro controller for about 108$ or so, so if you think it's bad to pay 60 for doom, I actually paid 91$ for it !), I heard it was much better with it

cathou:

kenu12345:
I like threads like these cause it shows the sort of people that would mindlessly argue for a corporation. Then again I can guess that with profile pics Glad you are enjoying the game! Don't have a switch myself but I want to get it on my xbox one but I don't want a backlog of games. How does it feel to control with the joycons? Those always felt awkward to me when I tried them

Actually, I realise that there's seems to be a lag on the vertical axis. If you push the joystick up there's a lag of about half a second before the camera actually start to move. Other than that, I don't think the joycons are that bad. But I think the game would have benefit of the gyroscopic aiming. I played a couple round of splatoon after playing doom, and the aiming is much better in splatoon.

However I wait for the pro controller to be in sale to get one (because in Canada with sales taxes each game goes for 91$ and the pro controller for about 108$ or so, so if you think it's bad to pay 60 for doom, I actually paid 91$ for it !), I heard it was much better with it

Honestly don't like gyroscopic aiming myself. couldnt get into splatoon at demo kiosks cause of it. Seems too out there for me. Those prices are insane though damn. Why is your sale tax so high Canada

kenu12345:

cathou:

kenu12345:
I like threads like these cause it shows the sort of people that would mindlessly argue for a corporation. Then again I can guess that with profile pics Glad you are enjoying the game! Don't have a switch myself but I want to get it on my xbox one but I don't want a backlog of games. How does it feel to control with the joycons? Those always felt awkward to me when I tried them

Actually, I realise that there's seems to be a lag on the vertical axis. If you push the joystick up there's a lag of about half a second before the camera actually start to move. Other than that, I don't think the joycons are that bad. But I think the game would have benefit of the gyroscopic aiming. I played a couple round of splatoon after playing doom, and the aiming is much better in splatoon.

However I wait for the pro controller to be in sale to get one (because in Canada with sales taxes each game goes for 91$ and the pro controller for about 108$ or so, so if you think it's bad to pay 60 for doom, I actually paid 91$ for it !), I heard it was much better with it

Honestly don't like gyroscopic aiming myself. couldnt get into splatoon at demo kiosks cause of it. Seems too out there for me. Those prices are insane though damn. Why is your sale tax so high Canada

In splatoon I only use partial gyroscopic aiming, I control left and right with the joystick and up and down by tilting the controller.

Sales tax in Quebec is 15% roughly, add the exchange rate, the games that are 60 in the USA are 80 here. The switch itself is 300$

cathou:

In splatoon I only use partial gyroscopic aiming, I control left and right with the joystick and up and down by tilting the controller.

that's basically how you're meant to use gyroscopic aiming in splatoon though...

cathou:

kenu12345:

cathou:

Actually, I realise that there's seems to be a lag on the vertical axis. If you push the joystick up there's a lag of about half a second before the camera actually start to move. Other than that, I don't think the joycons are that bad. But I think the game would have benefit of the gyroscopic aiming. I played a couple round of splatoon after playing doom, and the aiming is much better in splatoon.

However I wait for the pro controller to be in sale to get one (because in Canada with sales taxes each game goes for 91$ and the pro controller for about 108$ or so, so if you think it's bad to pay 60 for doom, I actually paid 91$ for it !), I heard it was much better with it

Honestly don't like gyroscopic aiming myself. couldnt get into splatoon at demo kiosks cause of it. Seems too out there for me. Those prices are insane though damn. Why is your sale tax so high Canada

In splatoon I only use partial gyroscopic aiming, I control left and right with the joystick and up and down by tilting the controller.

Sales tax in Quebec is 15% roughly, add the exchange rate, the games that are 60 in the USA are 80 here. The switch itself is 300$

Feel sorry for ya man

Arnoxthe1:

Yoshi178:
Shin Megami Tensei 5.

Wasn't that originally a Nintendo DS series? Also, we don't even know what it looks like yet. Stop reaching.

Yes and no.

The main (Shin) Megami Tensei series and its spin-off series have been on a lot of systems, starting with the Famicom in '87 and then Super Famicom, but also the Saturn, PS1, PS2 and indeed the DS/3DS. Most of the games are on a Nintendo system, or got a rerelease on one. The exception is the Persona sub-series, which is of course mostly associated with Playstation.

Putting the graphics aside, the main distinctions would be the wonky sensitivity on the Switch controls and possibly framerate. Not the 30/60 fps back and forth, but consistency. Doom didn't have too many slog-spots where the frames dropped on the other systems, but that'd potentially be magnified on the Switch (Wolfenstein had a lot of troubles with it though)

Yoshi178:

Arnoxthe1:

Yoshi178:
and yet people like Johnny Novgorod over here kept bragging about how Switch wasn't ever going to get "Current" gen titles like Wolfenstein II and such to me earlier this year back in about June i think it was.

I don't care what Johnny said because I didn't say that. I said I think the only reason the Switch can get away with running Doom 4 at all is that idTech 6 is hella optimized. All the other third party games I'm seeing for it are all last gen.

Pretty sure games like Rocket League, Sonic Forces, WWE 2k18 and Fifa 18 are all current generation games.

but i'm sure you'll make up some excuse as to why those don't count too...

Are you seriously using using this quoted post as some kind of victory or trump card? The cherry picking here is glorious. One game out of all the titles on the list comes out for the Switch and you roll out the victory mat, completely ignoring the fact that (as it was pointed out previously) both Doom and Wolfenstein are running on Id Tech which you could probably modify to run on a calculator (that's me using sarcasm fyi). I know you are probably the Escapist's biggest Nintendo apologist but you must see how ridiculous this post is right?

And for the record, I have no interest whatsoever in what version of a game you or anyone else buys. But the truth is the truth no matter how it hurts. The Switch, just like the Wii U and Wii before it, is dropping the ball on third party games. Currently at least. Maybe more are coming, I certainly hope they are. But for right now the only reason to get a Switch is for first party titles (as per the usual) or if you "desperately want" the mobile factor, because third party games like Doom are objectively uglier on the Switch thanks to the hardware.

Ezekiel:

cathou:
But I tried to read reviews about it, and I'm kind of disappointed that every single review out there so far seems to only compare it to the PS4/Xbox/pic version. I want to know if the game is good on it's own merits not if it hold up against other version graphics, and if the game is complete or if there's something missing. I don't care that it run at 30fps. I mean,if I look at some comment, some people seems to think that their eye will bleed if they dare watch something at 30 fps...

Then why don't you just read the reviews that came out two years ago? The same publications don't need to review the content again.

Because the experience between two platforms may vary significantly. Remember the PC version of Arkham Knight?

JUMBO PALACE:
But the truth is the truth no matter how it hurts. The Switch, just like the Wii U and Wii before it, is dropping the ball on third party games. Currently at least. Maybe more are coming, I certainly hope they are. But for right now the only reason to get a Switch is for first party titles (as per the usual) or if you "desperately want" the mobile factor, because third party games like Doom are objectively uglier on the Switch thanks to the hardware.

i dont think they actually drop the ball on third party right now. forget how the game look or not. first switch is way more easy to code a game in than the wii or the WiiU. now, if you look at the, let say top 20 sales of the wii, the wiiu and the switch, 14 out of 20 be4st selling games was publish by nintendo. on the wiiu, 18 out of 2o was published by nintendo. now, switch on the other hand, 5 out of 20 are publish by nintendo. third party sell way more for the switch than it sells for the wiiu. at the end, it's the only thing that count for the developpers. is it worth it ? Doom is number 3 in the eshop sales right now, and i think the sells are pretty good. Skyrim will be out this week, and it will probably sell well too. who cares waht the game look, if the sales are there, company will develop for the system...

JUMBO PALACE:

Yoshi178:

Arnoxthe1:

I don't care what Johnny said because I didn't say that. I said I think the only reason the Switch can get away with running Doom 4 at all is that idTech 6 is hella optimized. All the other third party games I'm seeing for it are all last gen.

Pretty sure games like Rocket League, Sonic Forces, WWE 2k18 and Fifa 18 are all current generation games.

but i'm sure you'll make up some excuse as to why those don't count too...

Are you seriously using using this quoted post as some kind of victory or trump card? The cherry picking here is glorious. One game out of all the titles on the list comes out for the Switch and you roll out the victory mat, completely ignoring the fact that (as it was pointed out previously) both Doom and Wolfenstein are running on Id Tech which you could probably modify to run on a calculator (that's me using sarcasm fyi). I know you are probably the Escapist's biggest Nintendo apologist but you must see how ridiculous this post is right?

And for the record, I have no interest whatsoever in what version of a game you or anyone else buys. But the truth is the truth no matter how it hurts. The Switch, just like the Wii U and Wii before it, is dropping the ball on third party games. Currently at least. Maybe more are coming, I certainly hope they are. But for right now the only reason to get a Switch is for first party titles (as per the usual) or if you "desperately want" the mobile factor, because third party games like Doom are objectively uglier on the Switch thanks to the hardware.

Shin Megam Tensei 5, Travis Strikes Back, and Ace Attorney are all 3rd Party games that have been confirmed for the Switch. wrong 3rd Party games though? would the Switch getting games like COD WWII & PUBG make you happier instead?

There's also heavy rumors floating around atm saying that Soul Caliber VI will be announced at the Playstation event coming up and that the game will also be on the PC and Switch but not the Xbox One.

CaitSeith:

Ezekiel:

cathou:
But I tried to read reviews about it, and I'm kind of disappointed that every single review out there so far seems to only compare it to the PS4/Xbox/pic version. I want to know if the game is good on it's own merits not if it hold up against other version graphics, and if the game is complete or if there's something missing. I don't care that it run at 30fps. I mean,if I look at some comment, some people seems to think that their eye will bleed if they dare watch something at 30 fps...

Then why don't you just read the reviews that came out two years ago? The same publications don't need to review the content again.

Because the experience between two platforms may vary significantly. Remember the PC version of Arkham Knight?

That wasn't the question. He complained that the reviews focus on tech issues, visuals and performance and not on the content.

Ezekiel:
That wasn't the question. He complained that the reviews focus on tech issues, visuals and performance and not on the content.

not exactly, i wished they focus more on does it look good by itself, is the framerate feel right or buggy, if theres was bugs and if content is missing, rather than spending half of the review doing a frame by frame comparaison with the other versions. clearly they have to mention it, but is it worth it to spend most of the review on that comparaison and barely talk about the game itself ? is it fair to made a review for those who have polay before, but not for those who havent ?

and reading reviews on when the game came out on other system is not very complete. there was dlc and patches after that. change have been made to the game since then, they add arcade mode, they changed multiplayer.

Playing DOOM makes me think Nintendo should hire Panic Buttons port team because its a damn good port. Its a better port then Legend of Zelda BOTW, Granted many problems in BOTW were patched out but I haven't had any graphical hiccups, or Frame drops yet.

kilenem:
Playing DOOM makes me think Nintendo should hire Panic Buttons port team because its a damn good port. Its a better port then Legend of Zelda BOTW, Granted many problems in BOTW were patched out but I haven't had any graphical hiccups, or Frame drops yet.

yes, it remind me that half of the reviewers i found said that there was a framerate issue, the other half said there wasnt, except maybe once or twince in the whole game. personnaly, i didnt noticed bad frame rates. maybe because i play on medium difficulty. but i'm at the third stage and so far nothing...

cathou:

kilenem:
Playing DOOM makes me think Nintendo should hire Panic Buttons port team because its a damn good port. Its a better port then Legend of Zelda BOTW, Granted many problems in BOTW were patched out but I haven't had any graphical hiccups, or Frame drops yet.

yes, it remind me that half of the reviewers i found said that there was a framerate issue, the other half said there wasnt, except maybe once or twince in the whole game. personnaly, i didnt noticed bad frame rates. maybe because i play on medium difficulty. but i'm at the third stage and so far nothing...

Technically, you could just be killing stuff fast enough that it doesn't pile up and drag the framerate down.

Seth Carter:

cathou:

kilenem:
Playing DOOM makes me think Nintendo should hire Panic Buttons port team because its a damn good port. Its a better port then Legend of Zelda BOTW, Granted many problems in BOTW were patched out but I haven't had any graphical hiccups, or Frame drops yet.

yes, it remind me that half of the reviewers i found said that there was a framerate issue, the other half said there wasnt, except maybe once or twince in the whole game. personnaly, i didnt noticed bad frame rates. maybe because i play on medium difficulty. but i'm at the third stage and so far nothing...

Technically, you could just be killing stuff fast enough that it doesn't pile up and drag the framerate down.

true, but i'm actually not very good at this game, and they do pile up ! but i'm practicing. i can play 15 minutes a few time per evening before the kids are screaming : mommy, we need you !

Arnoxthe1:
I think the only reason the Switch can get away with running Doom 4 at all is that idTech 6 is hella optimized. All the other third party games I'm seeing for it are all last gen.

Id 'We Got Doom running on a pocket calculator, so Doom 4 on your console is easy,' Software.

30fps is disappointing, I would take Doom 4 looking like Doom 3 but running at 60fps over it looking current gen but running slow. But motion sickness is apparently less of a problem than shinies.

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