Why every shooter should have leaning

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As you can see in the above clip, leaning allows you to correct your aim without any (or very little) chance of over-correcting your aim. At exactly 2:09, you see that I aimed just slightly right of the enemy, then I correct myself just by leaning left instead of moving my aim. Of course, I realize that with a KB/M over-correcting aim is much much much less of an issue. However, leaning still allows for other things like having your character "moving" to a degree while being fully offensive without any accuracy debuffs one usually receives while moving. Lastly, your character can obviously utilize cover better but leaning in the open is usually more useful than leaning around cover. Any competitive shooter without leaning very much hurts the dynamics of gunfights.

Leaning adds an interesting dynamic I'm sure. But most FPS's are not going to incorporate leaning because it adds complexity to the controls for console users. And developers have done research that shows them that console players do not like overly complex actions or controls, it is a big reason why FPS's don't have weapon wheels anymore and players are usually limited to a small asortment of guns at once.

Of course there are standout exceptions to this, like Doom and Wolfenstein. However only one of those games has leaning (iirc) and one of those games allows the player to hold a ton of guns depending on what you consider "tons".

The point is, the console market is still holding back gaming in a few ways. And generally developers make games for as many platforms as they can to maximize coverage and thus consoles hold back the PC game potential.

The real aiming solution for controllers would be motion controls. If you've played Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask or something similar on the 3DS you will have noticed that it is very easy to aim by tilting the controller, it's almost as good as using a mouse.

Bad Jim:
The real aiming solution for controllers would be motion controls. If you've played Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask or something similar on the 3DS you will have noticed that it is very easy to aim by tilting the controller, it's almost as good as using a mouse.

Or Splatoon.

The pro teams of which swear by the motion aiming.

I feel like leaning is always clunky in console games.

Leaning in shooters on the PC is great (and much easier to balance due to the precision of a mouse), but on console I tend to almost ignore leaning altogether. It tends to be clumsy and just slows me down whenever I try to do it.

I'd rather just end console first person shooters. Feels horrible. If I'm buying a console, I wanna play the kinds of games I usually don't get on PC. Games that play well on a controller. I mean, as well as they can. I don't use leaning much in the PC shooters that have it, so not a big deal for me there either.

Leaning kinda ties into cover systems, and is really a more natural form of cover augmentation imo. It's basically pointless in arena shooters but for something more tactical and immersive it is only welcomed.

Haven't played many FPS games with leaning, but those I did felt finicky. In stead of it slipping into second nature, it always felt like a mechanic I had to remind myself was there. Just strafing around works much better.

Casual Shinji:
Haven't played many FPS games with leaning, but those I did felt finicky. In stead of it slipping into second nature, it always felt like a mechanic I had to remind myself was there. Just strafing around works much better.

This is my experience as well. I use it a lot for PvE games, but for PvP games by the time I stop at a corner, remember what button to press to lean, and slowly peak around the corner I get shot in the ass

Far better to just run around the corner normally and keep moving

I remember the days when most old school PC FPS games had leaning, even Crysis 1 had leaning.

Commanderfantasy:
Leaning adds an interesting dynamic I'm sure. But most FPS's are not going to incorporate leaning because it adds complexity to the controls for console users. And developers have done research that shows them that console players do not like overly complex actions or controls, it is a big reason why FPS's don't have weapon wheels anymore and players are usually limited to a small asortment of guns at once.

Of course there are standout exceptions to this, like Doom and Wolfenstein. However only one of those games has leaning (iirc) and one of those games allows the player to hold a ton of guns depending on what you consider "tons".

The point is, the console market is still holding back gaming in a few ways. And generally developers make games for as many platforms as they can to maximize coverage and thus consoles hold back the PC game potential.

A lot of what is considered "hardcore" game series for console gaming originated with complex controls like MGS. The spectacle fighter genre started on consoles as well. Sure, you're going to get more sales with a game that's easy to pick up and play but if you budget games properly, you'll make a tidy profit off making a good niche game as well with probably less actual risk of losing money. The first Dishonored was budgeted to make a profit at 800k units sold for example. Anyway, MGS4 has leaning in it and sold extremely well. Aforementioned Dishonored has leaning in it too. You can make leaning a mechanic that people don't even have to use nor waste a controller button to implement (ala MGS4). Most people don't use any game's advanced mechanics like according to trophy data only 68% of Bayonetta players used dodge offset to execute a wicked weave attack, any hardcore player does that as second nature.

The majority of gamers on any platform prefer simpler games and publishers want to sell more games so it goes hand-in-hand with simpler games. It's why something like Divinity Original Sin had to be Kickstarted and that's a PC game.

Dirty Hipsters:
I feel like leaning is always clunky in console games.

Leaning in shooters on the PC is great (and much easier to balance due to the precision of a mouse), but on console I tend to almost ignore leaning altogether. It tends to be clumsy and just slows me down whenever I try to do it.

Leaning is more useful on a controller due it being the best way to correct your aim without over-correcting (which isn't really a problem with a mouse). I just takes some time to learn and get good at like say dodge offsetting in Bayonetta. I was told by the best player in MoH Warfighter that I was the most annoying player to play against because I was always constantly leaning in every gunfight.

Ezekiel:
I'd rather just end console first person shooters. Feels horrible. If I'm buying a console, I wanna play the kinds of games I usually don't get on PC. Games that play well on a controller. I mean, as well as they can. I don't use leaning much in the PC shooters that have it, so not a big deal for me there either.

So don't play FPSs on a console, problem solved; instead of "ending" console FPSs. As you can see in the video, I (and of course others) have no problem aiming with a controller. Using every tool available is essential to competitive shooters, doing the little things better is what allows you to out-play great players.

DrownedAmmet:
I use it a lot for PvE games, but for PvP games by the time I stop at a corner, remember what button to press to lean, and slowly peak around the corner I get shot in the ass

Far better to just run around the corner normally and keep moving

Leaning is more useful in the open than it is leaning around corners.

I find it useful because I'm not just occupying the space next to cover as an easy target.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
I'd rather just end console first person shooters. Feels horrible. If I'm buying a console, I wanna play the kinds of games I usually don't get on PC. Games that play well on a controller. I mean, as well as they can. I don't use leaning much in the PC shooters that have it, so not a big deal for me there either.

So don't play FPSs on a console, problem solved; instead of "ending" console FPSs. As you can see in the video, I (and of course others) have no problem aiming with a controller. Using every tool available is essential to competitive shooters, doing the little things better is what allows you to out-play great players.

Nah, I'd rather just end them and have those developers make other kinds of games.

You get the same effect by strafing. People have been doing that for years.

Ezekiel:
Nah, I'd rather just end [console shooters] and have those developers make other kinds of games.

It's a damn good thing you're not in charge then.

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
I'd rather just end console first person shooters. Feels horrible. If I'm buying a console, I wanna play the kinds of games I usually don't get on PC. Games that play well on a controller. I mean, as well as they can. I don't use leaning much in the PC shooters that have it, so not a big deal for me there either.

So don't play FPSs on a console, problem solved; instead of "ending" console FPSs. As you can see in the video, I (and of course others) have no problem aiming with a controller. Using every tool available is essential to competitive shooters, doing the little things better is what allows you to out-play great players.

Nah, I'd rather just end them and have those developers make other kinds of games.

There's only one console exclusive FPS made this gen so far. I'd rather have developers make games in other genres that are better than FPSs as well.

Squilookle:
You get the same effect by strafing. People have been doing that for years.

You usually get accuracy debuffs when strafing. Plus, leaning is a mechanic you can put into any shooter and not waste any buttons like MGS4 for example.

Phoenixmgs:

Squilookle:
You get the same effect by strafing. People have been doing that for years.

You usually get accuracy debuffs when strafing. Plus, leaning is a mechanic you can put into any shooter and not waste any buttons like MGS4 for example.

Or you could just... lose the debuff?

image

Phoenixmgs:
As you can see in the video, I (and of course others) have no problem aiming with a controller.

Just watched it. I noticed you're frequently strafing sideways and not aiming. I see that A LOT when I watch console players. Hmm. Wonder why.

I've only played PC games which have leaning, and I must say it is a welcome mechanic. It's actually a much more realistic form of cover, rather than popping your whole body out of cover to take a shot. Rainbow 6 games are a good example of this.

Before the Vegas series, you could line up to a corner, and peek out of it to take your shot, just exposing your upper body. Quicker, more precise, less risky. Then came the Vegas series which introduced cover system, which takes you ages to pop out and take a shot, especially if you're in heavy armor. In multiplayer, it's just not worth it, gets you killed, and you soon ditch it, and only use it to use the 3rd person view to scan the area without exposing yourself at all. But taking shots from cover is suicide.

Why would a trained specialist throw his whole body out of cover to take a shot anyway, it's just stupid, and doesn't really go with the Rainbow realism - especially when you shoot from your less dominant side, huge awkward swing of the body into enemy line of fire. Why would an agent do this? You'd think they would learn to switch shoulders, heck I even learned to do that while playing airsoft. Having said that, it's still an awesome game, nobody forces you to use the cover system.

Phoenixmgs:

Leaning is more useful in the open than it is leaning around corners.

Honestly I've never tried this, but I feel it could be somewhat limited for my use, except for really fine tuning, like with a sniper rifle/DMR. Maybe with consoles it makes sense, but I've trained myself to strafe rather than tap the left stick for finer control, or a mix of both. Since I've always thought of leaning as a "expose less of your body" mechanic primarily, it just seemed weird to lean out in the open.

Squilookle:

Phoenixmgs:

Squilookle:
You get the same effect by strafing. People have been doing that for years.

You usually get accuracy debuffs when strafing. Plus, leaning is a mechanic you can put into any shooter and not waste any buttons like MGS4 for example.

Or you could just... lose the debuff?

In any semi-realistic shooter (which even an MGS falls into), it doesn't make sense to not have aiming debuffs on strafing, which can be pretty powerful as the Fleet Foot booster (increases strafe speed) in Uncharted 2&3 was so OP that it was removed for UC4. It really doesn't make sense that you can aim as well moving than you can standing still. If it's some arcade-y shooter like Shadow Warrior or Bulletstorm, then not having any accuracy debuffs make sense.

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
As you can see in the video, I (and of course others) have no problem aiming with a controller.

Just watched it. I noticed you're frequently strafing sideways and not aiming. I see that A LOT when I watch console players. Hmm. Wonder why.

I was leaning more often than I was strafing.

Phoenixmgs:

Squilookle:

Phoenixmgs:

You usually get accuracy debuffs when strafing. Plus, leaning is a mechanic you can put into any shooter and not waste any buttons like MGS4 for example.

Or you could just... lose the debuff?

In any semi-realistic shooter (which even an MGS falls into), it doesn't make sense to not have aiming debuffs on strafing, which can be pretty powerful as the Fleet Foot booster (increases strafe speed) in Uncharted 2&3 was so OP that it was removed for UC4. It really doesn't make sense that you can aim as well moving than you can standing still. If it's some arcade-y shooter like Shadow Warrior or Bulletstorm, then not having any accuracy debuffs make sense.

Please don't start with that realism nonsense. I could just as well point out that the very idea of keeping your eye perfectly lined up with two different sights on your gun at all times when moving even in the slightest is unrealistic. But having your ADS vanish every time you touch any control other than fire is poor game design, so leeway must be allowed. Removing the debuff from strafing is the exact same game design philosophy. Not realistic perhaps, but Gameplay is more important than realism. Every. Single. Time.

You've identified a gameplay issue- over correcting aim. You don't want to add too many buttons to overcomplicate the control scheme. Fair enough. Shooters since the dawn of strafing have had players that use it for fine aiming, especially on consoles. Increasing the fire cone during movement (aim debuff) is a burden to this ease-of-use philosophy. So just get rid of it, or make it only take effect after a meter or two of continuous strafing. No extra buttons needed, and fine aim adjustment using the existing foot controls now work perfectly well.

It really is that simple.

Squilookle:
Please don't start with that realism nonsense. I could just as well point out that the very idea of keeping your eye perfectly lined up with two different sights on your gun at all times when moving even in the slightest is unrealistic. But having your ADS vanish every time you touch any control other than fire is poor game design, so leeway must be allowed. Removing the debuff from strafing is the exact same game design philosophy. Not realistic perhaps, but Gameplay is more important than realism. Every. Single. Time.

You've identified a gameplay issue- over correcting aim. You don't want to add too many buttons to overcomplicate the control scheme. Fair enough. Shooters since the dawn of strafing have had players that use it for fine aiming, especially on consoles. Increasing the fire cone during movement (aim debuff) is a burden to this ease-of-use philosophy. So just get rid of it, or make it only take effect after a meter or two of continuous strafing. No extra buttons needed, and fine aim adjustment using the existing foot controls now work perfectly well.

It really is that simple.

It's just basic game design of you get better at X while getting worse at Y (basic trade-off). You sprint and you can't shoot at all, you move normally and can shoot but rather inaccurately, you can strafe while being more accurate, and you can be perfectly accurate and not move at all. Leaning fits right between the last 2 offering very slight movement while being still extremely accurate. Same thing like standing and shooting has the most recoil, then crouching lowers the recoil some while prone almost eliminates recoil. And a really good lean mechanic allows you to crouch as well (ala MoH Warfighter). Same thing with a shooter (freaking wacky ass Metal Gear Solid) that lets you run faster with a secondary/grenade/knife equipped vs 2-handed rifle; faster movement but less offensive. It's not really that I love realism but it translates to game mechanics perfectly.

What makes competitive shooters for me is not out-shooting another player just because I have better aim, it's utilizing all the major to minor game mechanics to put myself in a better position to succeed and leaning only adds more elements that I can use to my advantage to out-play my opponent. When you play the best players, it's the little things that win gunfights and games. For example, MoH Warfighter allows you to combo so many mechanics together like I would sprint when getting shot at then slide into a crouched position (quick and fast burst of movement while orienting the camera to the enemy into a position of reduced recoil) and then lean back and forth while over 90% players just stand still and shoot while I'm getting getting less recoil than they are while being a moving target.

I HATE grenade and melee buttons not because pulling a grenade out your ass is unrealistic but having such a powerful attack at your fingertips without requiring any premeditation is not a good game mechanic. Have a grenade button but have an animation play that takes a second or two so that you can't instantaneously just press a button to use an explosive. Even a single player game like Dishonored doesn't let you insta throw grenades and that's a game that lets you stop time as an enemy fires a gun at you, collect the bullet from the air, then shoot said enemy with said bullet. Same thing with melee buttons that usually make super close quarters combat just 2 players running around each other mashing melee hoping to get the kill. Whereas a game like CS or MGO2 makes you switch to your knife first to actually melee someone.

Phoenixmgs:

Squilookle:
Please don't start with that realism nonsense. I could just as well point out that the very idea of keeping your eye perfectly lined up with two different sights on your gun at all times when moving even in the slightest is unrealistic. But having your ADS vanish every time you touch any control other than fire is poor game design, so leeway must be allowed. Removing the debuff from strafing is the exact same game design philosophy. Not realistic perhaps, but Gameplay is more important than realism. Every. Single. Time.

You've identified a gameplay issue- over correcting aim. You don't want to add too many buttons to overcomplicate the control scheme. Fair enough. Shooters since the dawn of strafing have had players that use it for fine aiming, especially on consoles. Increasing the fire cone during movement (aim debuff) is a burden to this ease-of-use philosophy. So just get rid of it, or make it only take effect after a meter or two of continuous strafing. No extra buttons needed, and fine aim adjustment using the existing foot controls now work perfectly well.

It really is that simple.

It's just basic game design of you get better at X while getting worse at Y (basic trade-off). You sprint and you can't shoot at all, you move normally and can shoot but rather inaccurately, you can strafe while being more accurate, and you can be perfectly accurate and not move at all. Leaning fits right between the last 2 offering very slight movement while being still extremely accurate. Same thing like standing and shooting has the most recoil, then crouching lowers the recoil some while prone almost eliminates recoil. And a really good lean mechanic allows you to crouch as well (ala MoH Warfighter). Same thing with a shooter (freaking wacky ass Metal Gear Solid) that lets you run faster with a secondary/grenade/knife equipped vs 2-handed rifle; faster movement but less offensive. It's not really that I love realism but it translates to game mechanics perfectly.

What makes competitive shooters for me is not out-shooting another player just because I have better aim, it's utilizing all the major to minor game mechanics to put myself in a better position to succeed and leaning only adds more elements that I can use to my advantage to out-play my opponent. When you play the best players, it's the little things that win gunfights and games. For example, MoH Warfighter allows you to combo so many mechanics together like I would sprint when getting shot at then slide into a crouched position (quick and fast burst of movement while orienting the camera to the enemy into a position of reduced recoil) and then lean back and forth while over 90% players just stand still and shoot while I'm getting getting less recoil than they are while being a moving target.

I HATE grenade and melee buttons not because pulling a grenade out your ass is unrealistic but having such a powerful attack at your fingertips without requiring any premeditation is not a good game mechanic. Have a grenade button but have an animation play that takes a second or two so that you can't instantaneously just press a button to use an explosive. Even a single player game like Dishonored doesn't let you insta throw grenades and that's a game that lets you stop time as an enemy fires a gun at you, collect the bullet from the air, then shoot said enemy with said bullet. Same thing with melee buttons that usually make super close quarters combat just 2 players running around each other mashing melee hoping to get the kill. Whereas a game like CS or MGO2 makes you switch to your knife first to actually melee someone.

Yeah look I get where you're coming from with trade offs, the whole risk vs reward balance is behind many of the great little touches in games, but you still haven't sold me on leaning in all games.

sometimes it's crucial. Battlegrounds, for example. With such a low time-to-die when taking damage, every shot counts and since a lot of fights take place out in the open between trees, know-how about leaning is utterly vital to outplaying the other guy, especially if they're just sidestepping into your line of sight.

However, outside of peeking from cover, leaning offers nothing that a quick sidestep shouldn't be able to provide as well. Worse, it takes up two extra buttons in spots usually reserved for much more important functions such as accessing a weapon wheel, or using items or doors, and entering vehicles etc. It works fine in shooters where you can die before you have time to react, but in everything else? Strafing gets the job done perfectly fine.

Also the running faster when holding a pistol thing is just stupid. You're still carrying the same weight all the time. If anything having two big rifles clattering around on your back is more likely to slow you down than a holstered sidearm. That's a game feature they really should retire already.

Squilookle:
Yeah look I get where you're coming from with trade offs, the whole risk vs reward balance is behind many of the great little touches in games, but you still haven't sold me on leaning in all games.

sometimes it's crucial. Battlegrounds, for example. With such a low time-to-die when taking damage, every shot counts and since a lot of fights take place out in the open between trees, know-how about leaning is utterly vital to outplaying the other guy, especially if they're just sidestepping into your line of sight.

However, outside of peeking from cover, leaning offers nothing that a quick sidestep shouldn't be able to provide as well. Worse, it takes up two extra buttons in spots usually reserved for much more important functions such as accessing a weapon wheel, or using items or doors, and entering vehicles etc. It works fine in shooters where you can die before you have time to react, but in everything else? Strafing gets the job done perfectly fine.

Also the running faster when holding a pistol thing is just stupid. You're still carrying the same weight all the time. If anything having two big rifles clattering around on your back is more likely to slow you down than a holstered sidearm. That's a game feature they really should retire already.

I didn't literally mean EVERY shooter should have leaning but for the majority of the time, having leaning be a mechanic is something that won't take anything away from a game, especially if the shooter already has ADS. If there's ADS, then leaning doesn't have to waste any buttons whatsoever because you can have the leaning controls only become available during ADS (like MGS4) so that no buttons are wasted. Shooters already like to waste buttons like having aforementioned grenade and melee buttons. MGS4 allows for so many more actions without any contextual controls whatsoever because it doesn't waste buttons for no reason, it's a TPS with 1st-person leaning that most FPSs can't even incorporate.

Phoenixmgs:

Squilookle:
Yeah look I get where you're coming from with trade offs, the whole risk vs reward balance is behind many of the great little touches in games, but you still haven't sold me on leaning in all games.

sometimes it's crucial. Battlegrounds, for example. With such a low time-to-die when taking damage, every shot counts and since a lot of fights take place out in the open between trees, know-how about leaning is utterly vital to outplaying the other guy, especially if they're just sidestepping into your line of sight.

However, outside of peeking from cover, leaning offers nothing that a quick sidestep shouldn't be able to provide as well. Worse, it takes up two extra buttons in spots usually reserved for much more important functions such as accessing a weapon wheel, or using items or doors, and entering vehicles etc. It works fine in shooters where you can die before you have time to react, but in everything else? Strafing gets the job done perfectly fine.

Also the running faster when holding a pistol thing is just stupid. You're still carrying the same weight all the time. If anything having two big rifles clattering around on your back is more likely to slow you down than a holstered sidearm. That's a game feature they really should retire already.

I didn't literally mean EVERY shooter should have leaning but for the majority of the time, having leaning be a mechanic is something that won't take anything away from a game, especially if the shooter already has ADS. If there's ADS, then leaning doesn't have to waste any buttons whatsoever because you can have the leaning controls only become available during ADS (like MGS4) so that no buttons are wasted. Shooters already like to waste buttons like having aforementioned grenade and melee buttons. MGS4 allows for so many more actions without any contextual controls whatsoever because it doesn't waste buttons for no reason, it's a TPS with 1st-person leaning that most FPSs can't even incorporate.

Well in that case you need to change the title of your topic then, because that title 'literally' means every shooter. I'll agree that leaning doesn't take anything away from a shooter though (unless it moves the usual q and e button functions further away, in which case it does take away).

Squilookle:

However, outside of peeking from cover, leaning offers nothing that a quick sidestep shouldn't be able to provide as well.

As much as I hate to agree with Phoenixmgs about something, leaning from side to side does do something that sidestepping doesn't. It changes the position of your head.

That's something that's REALLY important. It's one of the reasons that in many shooters players jump out or dive out from behind walls, to make it more difficult to predict where their head is going to be.

When you're just side stepping your head is in the same position it's always in, and it's the same position as the heads on all the other character models. The moment you start playing a game you learn the exact place you generally need to aim to get a headshot. Leaning changes that headshot location just enough to give you the edge over someone who isn't leaning, especially if you're able to lean and strafe at the same time. It moves your head just enough that your opponent either has to adjust their aim slightly to hit you in the head, or has to fire a couple of extra shots to body shot you to death.

Of course I find this more important on PC and on consoles because console auto-aim tends to make such mechanics a lot less useful.

Speaking as someone who's played an ass-ton of FPS games, from Ultimate Doom to Far Cry 2 to Halo 3 to Insurgency, leaning sounds really great on paper, but honestly, key space next to WASD is valuable and leaning just takes up too many slots to justify its inclusion. Assuming we're playing a semi-realistic game, we're gonna have the usual suspects for controls on the keyboard which are reload, interact, use grenade, melee, sprinting, and crouching. That leaves three nearby keys for miscellaneous functions which is not much, honestly. And two of those keys are in kind of an awkward place.

But Arnox, you say, we don't need to map them to separate keys. You can just ADS and the 'A' and 'D' keys will become lean keys. To that I say, no, that's a terrible idea. I strafe while aiming down sights ALL THE TIME. Most notably to clear sightlines around cover. Now, in multiplayer for semi-realistic games and otherwise, I suppose leaning can be pretty useful, but for me personally, once again, leaning takes up two keys too many on my keyboard that could be assigned to other more practical functions.

Arnoxthe1:
Speaking as someone who's played an ass-ton of FPS games, from Ultimate Doom to Far Cry 2 to Halo 3 to Insurgency, leaning sounds really great on paper, but honestly, key space next to WASD is valuable and leaning just takes up too many slots to justify its inclusion. Assuming we're playing a semi-realistic game, we're gonna have the usual suspects for controls on the keyboard which are reload, interact, use grenade, melee, sprinting, and crouching. That leaves three nearby keys for miscellaneous functions which is not much, honestly. And two of those keys are in kind of an awkward place.

But Arnox, you say, we don't need to map them to separate keys. You can just ADS and the 'A' and 'D' keys will become lean keys. To that I say, no, that's a terrible idea. I strafe while aiming down sights ALL THE TIME. Most notably to clear sightlines around cover. Now, in multiplayer for semi-realistic games and otherwise, I suppose leaning can be pretty useful, but for me personally, once again, leaning takes up two keys too many on my keyboard that could be assigned to other more practical functions.

"But Arnox," I say "anyone who doesn't have extra programmable mouse buttons is a huge noob."

In all seriousness, having a nice mouse with some extra programmable buttons solves SOOO many issues. Depending on the game I usually assign a couple of thumb mouse buttons to melee, crouch, grenade, special ability, etc, which frees up other keys. Right now on my mouse I have 3 extra programmable buttons in range of my thumb and 2 extra buttons in range of my index finger.

Dirty Hipsters:

Squilookle:

However, outside of peeking from cover, leaning offers nothing that a quick sidestep shouldn't be able to provide as well.

As much as I hate to agree with Phoenixmgs about something, leaning from side to side does do something that sidestepping doesn't. It changes the position of your head.

You've got me there. Such a pain in the arse to strafe 5 paces to the left and remember I left my head right back where I started running...

Dirty Hipsters:
As much as I hate to agree with Phoenixmgs about something, leaning from side to side does do something that sidestepping doesn't. It changes the position of your head.

That's something that's REALLY important. It's one of the reasons that in many shooters players jump out or dive out from behind walls, to make it more difficult to predict where their head is going to be.

When you're just side stepping your head is in the same position it's always in, and it's the same position as the heads on all the other character models. The moment you start playing a game you learn the exact place you generally need to aim to get a headshot. Leaning changes that headshot location just enough to give you the edge over someone who isn't leaning, especially if you're able to lean and strafe at the same time. It moves your head just enough that your opponent either has to adjust their aim slightly to hit you in the head, or has to fire a couple of extra shots to body shot you to death.

Of course I find this more important on PC and on consoles because console auto-aim tends to make such mechanics a lot less useful.

Uhh... Thanks, I guess lol

Anyway, a good lean system can allow for the lowering and raising of one's head along with the obvious left/right of leaning as well. It's kinda the same reason why cover systems suck in the competitive environment against human opponents. If I know the other player is using the cover system, I know exactly where his head is going to when he pops out to shoot. But if they just move out from a wall, I don't know how far they are going to move out. Not to mention the greatly reduced mobility of being "stuck" to cover. It's why all the great players rarely actually use cover systems online. Lastly, there's shooters without auto-aim or aim-assist on consoles that make minor movements like leaning very important. Whereas a game like Battlefield 4, I played the beta for an hour and deleted it because its version of aim-assist was basically auto-aim. And, it had the most worthless lean mechanic I've ever seen.

Arnoxthe1:
But Arnox, you say, we don't need to map them to separate keys. You can just ADS and the 'A' and 'D' keys will become lean keys. To that I say, no, that's a terrible idea. I strafe while aiming down sights ALL THE TIME. Most notably to clear sightlines around cover. Now, in multiplayer for semi-realistic games and otherwise, I suppose leaning can be pretty useful, but for me personally, once again, leaning takes up two keys too many on my keyboard that could be assigned to other more practical functions.

I'm pretty sure there's a pretty simple lean solution on KB/M. Hell, I don't even know the basic/standard keys for a FPS on KB/M besides for, of course, WASD and mouse to aim and shoot. So I just googled Call of Duty keyboard controls and saw that spacebar is used for jump. You could then use spacebar as your lean toggle when ADS because I doubt you'd ever want to jump when ADS. Then you can use A and D as your lean buttons and strafe buttons just holding down spacebar when you want to lean and releasing it to strafe. That took me like 2 minutes to think of, not sure if it's a great solution but it solves your problem. It's what I've been doing for years on a controller, I have no problem toggling the left stick between strafe and lean in games like MoH Warfighter and Wolfenstein.

Phoenixmgs:
I'm pretty sure there's a pretty simple lean solution on KB/M. Hell, I don't even know the basic/standard keys for a FPS on KB/M besides for, of course, WASD and mouse to aim and shoot. So I just googled Call of Duty keyboard controls and saw that spacebar is used for jump. You could then use spacebar as your lean toggle when ADS because I doubt you'd ever want to jump when ADS. Then you can use A and D as your lean buttons and strafe buttons just holding down spacebar when you want to lean and releasing it to strafe. That took me like 2 minutes to think of, not sure if it's a great solution but it solves your problem. It's what I've been doing for years on a controller, I have no problem toggling the left stick between strafe and lean in games like MoH Warfighter and Wolfenstein.

What's your problem with jumping? I don't like your solution. It acts as jump when not using ADS? Clumsy. Conflicting. Unintuitive. I mean, I often shoot dodge/roll (Spacebar) when I'm using the OTS in MP3/MGSV.

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
I'm pretty sure there's a pretty simple lean solution on KB/M. Hell, I don't even know the basic/standard keys for a FPS on KB/M besides for, of course, WASD and mouse to aim and shoot. So I just googled Call of Duty keyboard controls and saw that spacebar is used for jump. You could then use spacebar as your lean toggle when ADS because I doubt you'd ever want to jump when ADS. Then you can use A and D as your lean buttons and strafe buttons just holding down spacebar when you want to lean and releasing it to strafe. That took me like 2 minutes to think of, not sure if it's a great solution but it solves your problem. It's what I've been doing for years on a controller, I have no problem toggling the left stick between strafe and lean in games like MoH Warfighter and Wolfenstein.

What's your problem with jumping? I don't like your solution. It acts as jump when not using ADS? Clumsy. Conflicting. Unintuitive.

Do you ever jump when ADS?

And, it works just fine for me. Hell, MoH Warfighter was the first shooter that I think I played that used the left stick for leaning and I was instantly taking full advantage of it right away. Hold L2 to enable leaning, let go to strafe; worked perfectly. With a keyboard having a slew of buttons and shooters being pretty simplistic mechanically, I'm sure there's plenty of buttons to have a dedicated lean "switch" bound to. The spacebar is so big, it would be easy to press down to enable leaning / release to strafe. Simply move jump to another key then. Or put the "switch" on a customizable mouse button your thumb could easily press. Unless you're going to admit a controller can do something better than the amazingly glorious KB/M that is superior in every conceivable way.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:
I'm pretty sure there's a pretty simple lean solution on KB/M. Hell, I don't even know the basic/standard keys for a FPS on KB/M besides for, of course, WASD and mouse to aim and shoot. So I just googled Call of Duty keyboard controls and saw that spacebar is used for jump. You could then use spacebar as your lean toggle when ADS because I doubt you'd ever want to jump when ADS. Then you can use A and D as your lean buttons and strafe buttons just holding down spacebar when you want to lean and releasing it to strafe. That took me like 2 minutes to think of, not sure if it's a great solution but it solves your problem. It's what I've been doing for years on a controller, I have no problem toggling the left stick between strafe and lean in games like MoH Warfighter and Wolfenstein.

What's your problem with jumping? I don't like your solution. It acts as jump when not using ADS? Clumsy. Conflicting. Unintuitive.

Do you ever jump when ADS?

I have. I've also evaded with Spacebar when using OTS, which is the same thing.

And, it works just fine for me. Hell, MoH Warfighter was the first shooter that I think I played that used the left stick for leaning and I was instantly taking full advantage of it right away. Hold L2 to enable leaning, let go to strafe; worked perfectly. With a keyboard having a slew of buttons and shooters being pretty simplistic mechanically, I'm sure there's plenty of buttons to have a dedicated lean "switch" bound to. The spacebar is so big, it would be easy to press down to enable leaning / release to strafe.

Yes, a keyboard has a lot of inputs, but a good control scheme will have all the important keys easily accessible. You can't just say there are plenty of keys and assign them however you want.

Simply move jump to another key then. Or put the "switch" on a customizable mouse button your thumb could easily press. Unless you're going to admit a controller can do something better than the amazingly glorious KB/M that is superior in every conceivable way.

I need to use a switch now? This is staring to sound worse and worse. Besides, I might be using the side buttons of the mouse for something else.

Ezekiel:
Yes, a keyboard has a lot of inputs, but a good control scheme will have all the important keys easily accessible. You can't just say there are plenty of keys and assign them however you want.

I need to use a switch now? This is staring to sound worse and worse. Besides, I might be using the side buttons of the mouse for something else.

The whole point of having a "switch" is to use LESS buttons. Instead lean taking 2 keys, it's only taking up 1 key while not having to move your fingers off A and D to actually lean. Good controls also involve being condensed/streamlined as much as possible. Standard shooter controls with melee and grenade buttons actually waste more buttons and are less efficient. I doubt there's any shooter on PC that allows for more player actions than MGS4 and it does that all with a controller's measly 14 buttons and 2 sticks.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
Yes, a keyboard has a lot of inputs, but a good control scheme will have all the important keys easily accessible. You can't just say there are plenty of keys and assign them however you want.

I need to use a switch now? This is staring to sound worse and worse. Besides, I might be using the side buttons of the mouse for something else.

The whole point of having a "switch" is to use LESS buttons. Instead lean taking 2 keys, it's only taking up 1 key while not having to move your fingers off A and D to actually lean.

Better to just replace lean with something actually useful.

Good controls also involve being condensed/streamlined as much as possible. Standard shooter controls with melee and grenade buttons actually waste more buttons and are less efficient. I doubt there's any shooter on PC that allows for more player actions than MGS4 and it does that all with a controller's measly 14 buttons and 2 sticks.

MGS4 isn't that good or smooth a shooter. Also, nade quick throw buttons are fun and can make badass moments more badass.

Ezekiel:
Better to just replace lean with something actually useful.

MGS4 isn't that good or smooth a shooter. Also, nade quick throw buttons are fun and can make badass moments more badass.

Lean is very useful, it will win you tons of gunfights when used properly.

MGS4 is the most sound TPS to date and the aiming is the smoothest as well with no aim-assist of any kind. What other shooter has good enough aiming to make the competitive multiplayer rely on only headshots for kills?

What's more badass than what Dishonored allows for? And, guess what, not even Dishonored has insta-throw grenades.

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