Why every shooter should have leaning

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Doing a small follow-up here to my last post in this thread. When ADS is used, I can see the space bar activating a leaning mode. Although honestly, it kinda depends on the game. Like, for example, in Crysis when in Strength mode, you can leap really high while keeping firm hold of your gun. Therefore, jumping while using ADS is useful in that game.

I have been replaying Far Cry 3 though and I notice that FC3's intelligent cover system satisfies the need for a lean very well. It simply detects when you're up against cover and when it does, it raises your gun letting you subtly know that the system is activated (as long as you don't move out of cover) and then whenever you use ADS, you will lean in the direction of the nearest corner, or if behind a chest-high wall, you will pop out of cover just enough to aim and shoot. This is a very elegant solution to the leaning problem. You don't need to specify a specific key or keys for leaning now but you still have access to it should you ever need it.

Also, I'm really really happy that Halo invented quick-access grenades. Some of ya'll need to go back and play an FPS like Quake 2 or Perfect Dark where the grenades took up a whole separate weapon slot. You had to stop shooting, clunkily pull them out, and then use them, by which time the opportunity to use them may have already passed. Oh and don't forget, you need to have time to cook the grenades too, assuming the game even allows you to. Most of the time, you'll just forget you have them and they'll sit in your inventory completely unused, making them worse than redundant to the game's rocket launcher. What a waste! And it isn't even realistic. Soldiers usually have them hooked to some part of their armor or clothing for easy access and use. Now, if you're so worried about grenade spam, there's several things you can do to limit them, including just flat out removing them from the map/game entirely.

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
Better to just replace lean with something actually useful.

MGS4 isn't that good or smooth a shooter. Also, nade quick throw buttons are fun and can make badass moments more badass.

Lean is very useful, it will win you tons of gunfights when used properly.

MGS4 is the most sound TPS to date and the aiming is the smoothest as well with no aim-assist of any kind.

Nope.

What other shooter has good enough aiming to make the competitive multiplayer rely on only headshots for kills?

Only headshots is super lame.

What's more badass than what Dishonored allows for? And, guess what, not even Dishonored has insta-throw grenades.

Dishonored is too overpowering and easy to be badass. I need to post this again:

It's mechanical too, in how you have to switch abilities with the number row/radial menu. It would be as if Bayonetta only allowed you to double jump or dodge after switching to that ability through a mini-menu.

Arnoxthe1:
Also, I'm really really happy that Halo invented quick-access grenades. Some of ya'll need to go back and play an FPS like Quake 2 or Perfect Dark where the grenades took up a whole separate weapon slot. You had to stop shooting, clunkily pull them out, and then use them, by which time the opportunity to use them may have already passed. Oh and don't forget, you need to have time to cook the grenades too, assuming the game even allows you to. Most of the time, you'll just forget you have them and they'll sit in your inventory completely unused, making them worse than redundant to the game's rocket launcher. What a waste! And it isn't even realistic. Soldiers usually have them hooked to some part of their armor or clothing for easy access and use. Now, if you're so worried about grenade spam, there's several things you can do to limit them, including just flat out removing them from the map/game entirely.

Well, PhoenixMGS likes things really mechanical.

Arnoxthe1:
Doing a small follow-up here to my last post in this thread. When ADS is used, I can see the space bar activating a leaning mode. Although honestly, it kinda depends on the game. Like, for example, in Crysis when in Strength mode, you can leap really high while keeping firm hold of your gun. Therefore, jumping while using ADS is useful in that game.

I have been replaying Far Cry 3 though and I notice that FC3's intelligent cover system satisfies the need for a lean very well. It simply detects when you're up against cover and when it does, it raises your gun letting you subtly know that the system is activated (as long as you don't move out of cover) and then whenever you use ADS, you will lean in the direction of the nearest corner, or if behind a chest-high wall, you will pop out of cover just enough to aim and shoot. This is a very elegant solution to the leaning problem. You don't need to specify a specific key or keys for leaning now but you still have access to it should you ever need it.

Also, I'm really really happy that Halo invented quick-access grenades. Some of ya'll need to go back and play an FPS like Quake 2 or Perfect Dark where the grenades took up a whole separate weapon slot. You had to stop shooting, clunkily pull them out, and then use them, by which time the opportunity to use them may have already passed. Oh and don't forget, you need to have time to cook the grenades too, assuming the game even allows you to. Most of the time, you'll just forget you have them and they'll sit in your inventory completely unused, making them worse than redundant to the game's rocket launcher. What a waste! And it isn't even realistic. Soldiers usually have them hooked to some part of their armor or clothing for easy access and use. Now, if you're so worried about grenade spam, there's several things you can do to limit them, including just flat out removing them from the map/game entirely.

Again, it was a solution I put together in a couple minutes and posted a couple others after the post as well. There's no reason leaning can't easily work on a KB/M.

Those sorta "soft" cover systems suck. Sure, they can work just fine in single player but when playing against human opponents, you can't have the game doing stuff for you that you don't want. Like I said previously, leaning is just as good in the open vs when you have your face up against a wall. Or what if you want to lean around something that you're 5-10 feet behind. Those systems don't allow for such things. As a player, I always want to initiate everything that my character does, I don't want the game doing anything for me.

My online shooter of choice is still MGO2 which you have to cycle to your grenades to throw and there's no issue whatsoever in throwing grenades in the game, grenades are still VERY important. It just takes a little premeditation, is that too much to ask? The reason insta grenades are so bad is readily apparent in shooters with high health where you could know your losing a gunfight and chuck a nade either dying but getting the "revenge" kill a second later or make the other player run without being able to finish the kill. That situation happens ad nauseam in Uncharted's multiplayer.

Ezekiel:
Only headshots is super lame.

It makes skill win gunfights and makes camping basically useless, that's win-win.

Dishonored is too overpowering and easy to be badass. I need to post this again:

It's mechanical too, in how you have to switch abilities with the number row/radial menu. It would be as if Bayonetta only allowed you to double jump or dodge after switching to that ability through a mini-menu.

Good thing I was in the process of making a Dishonored video from just finishing up Death of the Outsider. What stealth game isn't completely OP? You posted that before and I posted a video of old-school Splinter Cell being played by just running through the level as well. No stealth games are hard because you have the option to avoid combat (the thing that can actually cause the player to die).

Wait... How do else are you going to switch weapons or items in a game? With your mind? God forbid, you have to press a button to switch weapons or items like every other game. Or do you want to hold up say 2 fingers in front of the Kinect to switch to weapon #2?

Arkane makes games for you to be creative, that's the whole point of the games. In any game you can find exploits and easy ways to win. If you're just going to find one thing that works and do it over and over again, then you're playing the game wrong. It would be like building the same exact thing over and over again with a tub of Legos.

Anyways, here's some video highlights from my playthrough of the latest Dishonored.
Guess what? No radial menu in any of the clips, I wonder how I did it!!!

Ugh now we're going after jumping? Look, I'll admit you don't need jumping to make a good FPS, but if it came down to jumping or leaning, it's jumping all the way. Leaning is a completely non-essential luxury. Jumping can be used to completely change the level design and gameplay of the whole shooter.

I still haven't seen anything yet that refutes that strafing does the job just fine.

Squilookle:

Dirty Hipsters:

Squilookle:

However, outside of peeking from cover, leaning offers nothing that a quick sidestep shouldn't be able to provide as well.

As much as I hate to agree with Phoenixmgs about something, leaning from side to side does do something that sidestepping doesn't. It changes the position of your head.

You've got me there. Such a pain in the arse to strafe 5 paces to the left and remember I left my head right back where I started running...

The point is that when all of the character models in a game are the exact same height people easily learn what height to aim at preemptively to hit you in the head. If your character can lean and you go into a gunfight leaning it'll throw off your opponent's aim because they have to compensate for where they thought your head was going to be versus where it actually is.

Squilookle:
Ugh now we're going after jumping? Look, I'll admit you don't need jumping to make a good FPS, but if it came down to jumping or leaning, it's jumping all the way. Leaning is a completely non-essential luxury. Jumping can be used to completely change the level design and gameplay of the whole shooter.

I still haven't seen anything yet that refutes that strafing does the job just fine.

I never said remove jumping. I said that I doubt anyone needs to jump when they're ADS so you can make the jump key (the spacebar) be the "switch" that makes A and D lean instead of strafe only when ADS so you don't need to move your fingers off A and D. Press spacebar while ADS to lean with A/D, release to strafe. It was only one such way of doing leaning that I came up with in about 2 minutes. Or use a side button on a gaming mouse to be the "switch". Or numerous other ways. The point is there's no reason why leaning should add 2 more buttons to the controls when it can just take 1 more button or even none. Leaning actually works best on a controller because you can use the left stick to lean making it super easy to allow for raising and lowering your head along with the standard left/right. I previously went through all the reasons why leaning and strafing allow for different things.

Samtemdo8:
I remember the days when most old school PC FPS games had leaning, even Crysis 1 had leaning.

Pah kids today, I remember System Shock and Thief, which had totally useless "lean forward" buttons.

I like being able to lean, but I find it pointless in console shooters. I've just got into Battlefield 1, and the way it works there is that you get a button prompt to pop out of cover (whether by leaning or by peaking over), but its very temperamental about what counts as cover. It's just one more thing for me to press by accident. (The game isn't that great at integrating tutorials, I played through all the story missions and a couple of hours of the multiplayer before I properly learnt the throw grenade button).

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
Only headshots is super lame.

It makes skill win gunfights and makes camping basically useless, that's win-win.

It's lame, and it takes skill either way. I wonder if that means shotguns are pretty much useless. I love blasting people away with shotguns. MGS4 isn't that good a shooter. Even the perspective sucks for shooting. Really zoomed in when aiming, making it hard to see your sides, you're forced to move slowly while aiming and the camera shakes ridiculously during rapid fire.

maninahat:
I like being able to lean, but I find it pointless in console shooters. I've just got into Battlefield 1, and the way it works there is that you get a button prompt to pop out of cover (whether by leaning or by peaking over), but its very temperamental about what counts as cover. It's just one more thing for me to press by accident.

I find Battlefield to be a rather bad shooter especially on consoles at least. BF4 has an aim-assist that is basically auto-aim making gunfights really poor. Then, its lean mechanic as you said is just as horrible. Any type of contextual controls are bad especially in a competitive environment where any instance of a game doing something you don't want can get you killed. BF's lean mechanic is horrible because it's contextual, only working when your face is against a wall.

Ezekiel:

Phoenixmgs:

Ezekiel:
Only headshots is super lame.

It makes skill win gunfights and makes camping basically useless, that's win-win.

It's lame, and it takes skill either way. I wonder if that means shotguns are pretty much useless. I love blasting people away with shotguns. MGS4 isn't that good a shooter. Even the perspective sucks for shooting. Really zoomed in when aiming, making it hard to see your sides, you're forced to move slowly while aiming and the camera shakes ridiculously during rapid fire.

Shotguns are actually the most satisfying in MGO2 than any other shooter IMO. It takes 2 to 3 hits to kill via a shotgun but landing a shot within the shotgun's effect range (like 15m) makes the enemy flinch or you can straight-up knock the enemy to the ground if you're really close (like 5m). You can't completely stun-lock an enemy with a shotgun as the timing is setup just right (with shotgun pumping the next round) to allow the other player a chance to land a headshot between shotgun blasts. Thus, you can't stand still and just fire into the other player or else you'll get killed so you have to keep on the move during your 2-3 shots to get the kill. My patented 3-shot flinch kill is the normal standing opening shot, then crouch on my 2nd shot to lower my head, then lean left or right on the 3rd shot to finish the kill moving my head left/right. Or if you're close enough for the knockdown, you just keeping moving basically right on top of the downed player to finish the kill with your 2nd shot. Using a shotgun in MGO2 requires having really great map knowledge along with knowing the shotgun's flinch range to the inch because if you engage in combat just outside of the flinch range, you're pretty much dead. Also, the shotgun is a great counter to the shield, shoot at the exposed legs to cause a flinch and they have almost no chance. Although, the shotgun in the game is the one thing that is actually the most unbalanced in almost a perfectly balanced game, not because headshots rule the game otherwise, but because there's a level 1 skill (using only 1 of your 4 skill slots) that basically allows your character to not flinch which does basically nullify the shotgun's effectiveness. Basically a level 1 skill takes out a level 3 skill. There's other times your character will flinch so the skill was put in for mainly that reason but it so happened to somewhat break weapon balance. If a team knows a player or two on the other team shotguns, then they can all equip that level 1 skill to basically nullify that player. I had 2 clans always run that skill when they were playing my clan because of me but they didn't realize I only shotgunned on certain map/mode combinations that I felt shotgunning was most effective. Anyway, a lot of MGO players are quite annoyed by the shotgun that they will disable the gun in rooms they create and I've also been top player numerous times against top clans running the shotgun to know it's a very effective gun if you know how to use it.

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