Dawn of War 3 cast adrift in the warp

Well, I was kind of hoping that maybe Relic would continue development and magically turn it into something that wasn't a pile of shit. Guess that's not going to happen.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-02-08-relic-leaves-dawn-of-war-3-behind-as-it-moves-on-to-new-projects

Let's see now, discussion...ummm...should the game's designers now be BLAMmed for heresy or fehling teh Emprah?

Heresy? Nah.
BLAMed for taking a niche IP and rare RTS genre game with a smallish but very loyal fanbase and trying to turn it into a new MOBA e-sport bait title? Yeah, BLAM them for that.

It'd be like if some crazy dev added a Battle Royale mode to a cowboy western action game to try to cash in on PUBG and that other one's viral popularity with streamers!
Absolutely insulting to the fans, and a desperate and sloppy hummer to trend following.

So no Necrons DLC?

Sadface :(

I hope this doesn't kill chance of getting DoW 4, both 1 and 2 are very interesting in there own way. 3 was just... I dunno I guess they tried to grab the good from both and make the best of each but ended making something that wasn't really special.

Silentpony:
Heresy? Nah.
BLAMed for taking a niche IP and rare RTS genre game with a smallish but very loyal fanbase and trying to turn it into a new MOBA e-sport bait title? Yeah, BLAM them for that.

It'd be like if some crazy dev added a Battle Royale mode to a cowboy western action game to try to cash in on PUBG and that other one's viral popularity with streamers!

Question 1: What does "BLAM" stand for?

Question 2: Since when was Warhammer 40K a "niche" IP?

Question 3: Is the Battle Royale thing a hypothetical, or did I miss something?

Hawki:
Question 3: Is the Battle Royale thing a hypothetical, or did I miss something?

I believe there's rumors of a Battle Royale mode in Red Dead Redemption 2.

I don't understand it either, and I've never even played the first one.

Hawki:

Question 1: What does "BLAM" stand for?

Question 2: Since when was Warhammer 40K a "niche" IP?

Question 3: Is the Battle Royale thing a hypothetical, or did I miss something?

BLAM! is execution via boltpistol for heresy.
image

It's not a niche IP per se, but the Dawn of War franchise was fairly small, in a genre that these days is not booming with players.

As for the Battle Royale thing, Take Two says they're just watching the situation and finding it interesting.
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/gta-red-dead-company-responds-to-battle-royale-phe/1100-6456648/

Dawn of War 3 was quite good but I was really hoping they would add the DOW2 last stand mode too it. Damn, plus it needed Nids.
image

Hawki:

Silentpony:
Heresy? Nah.
BLAMed for taking a niche IP and rare RTS genre game with a smallish but very loyal fanbase and trying to turn it into a new MOBA e-sport bait title? Yeah, BLAM them for that.

It'd be like if some crazy dev added a Battle Royale mode to a cowboy western action game to try to cash in on PUBG and that other one's viral popularity with streamers!

Question 1: What does "BLAM" stand for?

Question 2: Since when was Warhammer 40K a "niche" IP?

Question 3: Is the Battle Royale thing a hypothetical, or did I miss something?

1. BLAM is an onomatopoeia for Comissar justice. It's a 40k meme to express disgust, or declare something "heresy".

2. At least compared to other IPs , yeah 40k is pretty niche. COD, WOW, magic the gathering, Star wars and Trek. There are a ton of IPs to choose from. You only pick 40k when you want 40k and only 40k fan to buy it.

3. I read, like Rogue Wolf said, that Red Dead Redemption is getting a battle royale mode. Here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/02/06/leaked-red-dead-redemption-2-info-reveals-a-battle-royale-mode/#ca99f2b6e49f

The game had no identity at all.

All they had to do was enhance the gameplay of either DoW1 or DoW2.

They chose to do none of that and throw a massive mess of mechanics together that completely lacked cohesion.

It didn't even emulate the universe very well, which is like, kind of a big part of the fun.

Silentpony:
3. I read, like Rogue Wolf said, that Red Dead Redemption is getting a battle royale mode. Here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/02/06/leaked-red-dead-redemption-2-info-reveals-a-battle-royale-mode/#ca99f2b6e49f

why does that bother you, when it's clearly an optional mode saved only for the online part of the game? GTAV online has its own variety of similar modes, they affect nothing else and not only are easily ignored, but are also easily missed

Also, three races?

Like, are you kidding me?

Xsjadoblayde:

Silentpony:
3. I read, like Rogue Wolf said, that Red Dead Redemption is getting a battle royale mode. Here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/02/06/leaked-red-dead-redemption-2-info-reveals-a-battle-royale-mode/#ca99f2b6e49f

why does that bother you, when it's clearly an optional mode saved only for the online part of the game? GTAV online has its own variety of similar modes, they affect nothing else and not only are easily ignored, but are also easily missed

Because I find it to be the first step on the slope to straight trend-following that DOW3 fell off. It started slowly, with DOW2 having hero characters and much less base building, moving on to the Last Stand which was only hero units vs hordes, and then reached maturation with DOW3 being a MOBA clone aimed at a completely different market than was DOW is supposed to be aimed at, ie RTS and 40k fans.

It'll start slow with Red Dead Redemption, and if no one cries foul, before you know it RDR3 will be a battle royale only game aimed at the PUBG crowd, will fail miserably, and that'll be the end of yet another promising franchise lost to Streamer bait and trend following.

To me trend following is one of the most dangerous ideas in gaming development. It shows a lack of originality, and a desperation to be something other than what the game is supposed to be.
Resident Evil 7 didn't want to be a Resident Evil game, it wanted to be Outlast.
Dawn of war 3 didn't want to be a Dawn of War game, it wanted to be League of Legends.
Dead Space 3 didn't want to be a Dead Space game, it wanted to be a Gears of War game, etc etc.

And its not even innovative to change the formula. Its taking someone else's idea, assuming it'd work in a completely different game, and that your fans, being cowboy fans or 40k fans, don't really want to be playing cowboy and/or 40k games, they want PUBG and LOL. Because those are popular with esports and streamers.

Good, now salt the earth and stomp on the rubble a few times to be sure. Dawn of War hasn't been good since Dark Crusade.

Silentpony:

2. At least compared to other IPs , yeah 40k is pretty niche. COD, WOW, magic the gathering, Star wars and Trek. There are a ton of IPs to choose from. You only pick 40k when you want 40k and only 40k fan to buy it.

Wait...Magic ISN'T a niche IP? I'd say it was more niche than any of those.

Apart from that, okay, 40K is more niche than a lot of those IPs you mentioned (though practically any IP is more niche than Star Wars or Star Trek, at least in speculative fiction), but that doesn't make it niche in of itself. 40K seems to be reasonably well known - even if you've never played it, if you walk into any kind of tabletop games shop (not necessarily Games Workshop), you're going to at least be aware of it. And even if you don't play tabletop games, when you consider the proliferation of 40K tie-in material (e.g. novels), then, yeah. Not what I'd call niche.

You'd pick 40K as a chance to bolster your game's selling factor, not diminish it. If you want an example of an actual niche IP, look at something like Homeworld - also created by Relic, but practically a non-entity when compared to Dawn of War or Company of Heroes.

Hawki:

Silentpony:

2. At least compared to other IPs , yeah 40k is pretty niche. COD, WOW, magic the gathering, Star wars and Trek. There are a ton of IPs to choose from. You only pick 40k when you want 40k and only 40k fan to buy it.

Wait...Magic ISN'T a niche IP? I'd say it was more niche than any of those.

Apart from that, okay, 40K is more niche than a lot of those IPs you mentioned (though practically any IP is more niche than Star Wars or Star Trek, at least in speculative fiction), but that doesn't make it niche in of itself. 40K seems to be reasonably well known - even if you've never played it, if you walk into any kind of tabletop games shop (not necessarily Games Workshop), you're going to at least be aware of it. And even if you don't play tabletop games, when you consider the proliferation of 40K tie-in material (e.g. novels), then, yeah. Not what I'd call niche.

You'd pick 40K as a chance to bolster your game's selling factor, not diminish it. If you want an example of an actual niche IP, look at something like Homeworld - also created by Relic, but practically a non-entity when compared to Dawn of War or Company of Heroes.

I think what makes me view 40k as niche is that you have to handle it very carefully for 40k to like it, and then you have to handle the actual gameplay itself for gamers to like it.
Look at all the terrible 40k games: Firewarrior, Warhammer 40000: Space Wolf, Carnage, Storm of Vengeance, Regicide, that visual novel Dorn game, Squad Command, Glory in Death.
The bad/poorly done 40k games far outweighs the good 40k games, which number roughly half of the Dawn of Wars series, Space Marine, arguably the Deathwatch game, that Crusade game, Chaos Gate, and a few of the Epic 40k games.

The 40k IP is no guarantee of success. In fact, I'd think it invites even more scrutiny and pressure, and most of the times its not worth it. Devs just take previous ideas and add 40k wallpaper and expect it to work as well, and it doesn't.

jademunky:
Good, now salt the earth and stomp on the rubble a few times to be sure. Dawn of War hasn't been good since Dark Crusade.

The first campaign in Dawn of War 2 was fun. Too bad the multiplayer was ass.

Silentpony:

jademunky:
Good, now salt the earth and stomp on the rubble a few times to be sure. Dawn of War hasn't been good since Dark Crusade.

The first campaign in Dawn of War 2 was fun. Too bad the multiplayer was ass.

See now, I feel DoW 2 took away the feeling of scale that the first one had. I wanted an RTS rather than simple squad-combat (I do love sqaud-based games, even squad-based warhammer, just not what I was wanting here).

Plus Dark Crusade was the only one that gave you a big multifaction map, allowed you to conquer at your own pace AND allowed buildings you constructed to carry over to the next battle in that region (the latter of which was weirdly absent in Soulstorm).

jademunky:

Silentpony:

jademunky:
Good, now salt the earth and stomp on the rubble a few times to be sure. Dawn of War hasn't been good since Dark Crusade.

The first campaign in Dawn of War 2 was fun. Too bad the multiplayer was ass.

See now, I feel DoW 2 took away the feeling of scale that the first one had. I wanted an RTS rather than simple squad-combat (I do love sqaud-based games, even squad-based warhammer, just not what I was wanting here).

Plus Dark Crusade was the only one that gave you a big multifaction map, allowed you to conquer at your own pace AND allowed buildings you constructed to carry over to the next battle in that region (the latter of which was weirdly absent in Soulstorm).

I wont argue with that. It was certainly a more squad-based RTS without any real base building. Still, for what it was, with the customization of equipment and skills, I enjoyed it as a 40k title.

Silentpony:

I wont argue with that. It was certainly a more squad-based RTS without any real base building. Still, for what it was, with the customization of equipment and skills, I enjoyed it as a 40k title.

Got to say, I was one of those raging at what they did with DoW2. Then I actually played it and it became my favourite 40K game of all time. Sadly the same could not be said of DoW3. Got to the end of mission 2 and refunded. Never have I played a DoW campaign mission and wished for it to be over after about 1/3 of the way in.

Silentpony:

I think what makes me view 40k as niche is that you have to handle it very carefully for 40k to like it, and then you have to handle the actual gameplay itself for gamers to like it.
Look at all the terrible 40k games: Firewarrior, Warhammer 40000: Space Wolf, Carnage, Storm of Vengeance, Regicide, that visual novel Dorn game, Squad Command, Glory in Death.
The bad/poorly done 40k games far outweighs the good 40k games, which number roughly half of the Dawn of Wars series, Space Marine, arguably the Deathwatch game, that Crusade game, Chaos Gate, and a few of the Epic 40k games.

The 40k IP is no guarantee of success. In fact, I'd think it invites even more scrutiny and pressure, and most of the times its not worth it. Devs just take previous ideas and add 40k wallpaper and expect it to work as well, and it doesn't.

So in other words, tie-in games are usually bad?

I have no reason to doubt that the majority of 40K games are of low quality, but I can't say that's endemic to 40K. If anything, that developers can expect a 40K game to sell based on brand recognition is indicative that it isn't a niche IP. And there isn't anything about the setting that would make it difficult to base a game around - just get a Space Marine, some xenos, and have him shoot stuff. Bam. There's your game. Doesn't have to be a good game, but it's a far simpler concept to execute than in other IPs.

It's funny that the 40k are basically terrible to the point of non-existence while the Fantasy games which are set in a dead IP are doing far better.

Dawn of War 1 was fantastic. Some aspects of it haven't aged particularly well, but it really fit the fantasy of throwing two gigantic 40K armies at each other, and the campaigns were a lot of fun, too.

Dawn of War 2 had a great campaign and Last Stand mode, and was much more in-depth in regards to unit interactions and abilities, but the small-scale battles, and lack of base building left a lot to be desired in terms of the multiplayer mode.

When THQ closed, I was so disappointed that we might never see a DoW3, but when it was actually announced...

Dawn of War 3 a disappointment almost immediately. Only launching with 3 races was a huge mistake, because it really took away from the variety that the previous games had. Also, with the super units, it never felt like armies were ever necessary, as they would just plow through everything that was thrown at them. I waited for an expansion or massive rebalances to get into the game properly, but I guess that is never going to happen, now.

Relic need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel, and just stick to what made Dawn of War and the original Company of Heroes so fun to play.

Hopefully, if there ever is a Dawn of War 4, it will live up to the legacy of DoW1.

Laggyteabag:

Hopefully, if there ever is a Dawn of War 4, it will live up to the legacy of DoW1.

At this rate I expect if there is a DoW4, it'll be a battle royale zombie survival game with crafting elements, microtransactions, a card game and all made with minecraft graphics.

Because that's exactly what 40k fans want. Literally everything but a 40k game.

All I wanted from Dow3 was Dow2 with a better engine, more focus on map control, more variety in units, some new heros, and a graphical/ui update. I dont think thats a ton to ask for but they turned it into what felt like a moba when we wanted a squad based RTS.

This is yet another tale of a developer not knowing its own audience and sales suffering because of it. I hope this doesnt mean we wont get a Dow4 thats you know, an actual RTS but it wouldnt surprise me at this point.

Silentpony:

Because I find it to be the first step on the slope to straight trend-following that DOW3 fell off. It started slowly, with DOW2 having hero characters and much less base building, moving on to the Last Stand which was only hero units vs hordes, and then reached maturation with DOW3 being a MOBA clone aimed at a completely different market than was DOW is supposed to be aimed at, ie RTS and 40k fans.

It'll start slow with Red Dead Redemption, and if no one cries foul, before you know it RDR3 will be a battle royale only game aimed at the PUBG crowd, will fail miserably, and that'll be the end of yet another promising franchise lost to Streamer bait and trend following.

To me trend following is one of the most dangerous ideas in gaming development. It shows a lack of originality, and a desperation to be something other than what the game is supposed to be.
Resident Evil 7 didn't want to be a Resident Evil game, it wanted to be Outlast.
Dawn of war 3 didn't want to be a Dawn of War game, it wanted to be League of Legends.
Dead Space 3 didn't want to be a Dead Space game, it wanted to be a Gears of War game, etc etc.

And its not even innovative to change the formula. Its taking someone else's idea, assuming it'd work in a completely different game, and that your fans, being cowboy fans or 40k fans, don't really want to be playing cowboy and/or 40k games, they want PUBG and LOL. Because those are popular with esports and streamers.

But it's an optional game mode. Nobody has to play it, see it, deal with it unless they want to. Like every GTAV multiplayer game mode is some sort of multiplayer 'trend' ...they do cover a lot of variety in that sense, and the option to create your own mode sort of adds to that anyway. This is something you're clutching pearls over, it's not going to affect any other part of the game, Rockstar are not going to suddenly decide to put all their effort into one current fad from now on just cos it's what's 'hot.' Maybe other titles that have more limited resources perhaps, but as with any trend it is only a temporary thing for as long as it proves profitable, then it will fade and not matter at all. Why waste the worry?

....Aaaand it's down to ?10 on steam sale.

The 40K nerd in me wants to buy it, the Dawn of War fan wants to say fuck you for fucking this up, I'll never let you have a penny for this.

 

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