I find Fallout: New Vegas incredibly dull

The Gentleman:

Samtemdo8:
Eh, being completely sober is much better lifestyle, getting wasted and high sounds like a pain in the ass, I rather keep my senses and sanity thank you. And personally I just find it a waste of money buying Liquor and Narcotics and Cigarettes/Cigars.

Have you ever gotten high? Like, really high? Or plastered? Or gone on a hallucinogenic trip? These are things you can't really understand from an external perspective.[/quote]

You don't even need to get plastered or high as a kite to understand it.

Like, I've never taken drugs, and I've only gotten seriously drunk one time (and even then I dind't experience blackout or puking. Just enough lack of motor coordination that I had to stop and personally assess that "Yeah, I think I had too much").

I still appreciate a good drink now and then. It's super relaxing to feel everything be chill and not really give a damn with a nice buzzy feeling.

If pot didn't carry with it four potential reactions (Super chill, Super energetic, Paranoia, or hallucinations) depending on your personal genetics, I'd likely give edibles a shot.

A friend of mine got into shrooms and swears by them that they're this amazing almost transcendent experience, and I understand why he and his GF like them...But I personally draw a line there for me. While I do enjoy loosening the reins of control once in a while and just de-stressing with some mild substance, I'm paranoid about letting go completely and riding out a drug trip. I like knowing where I am and what I'm doing and retaining control thanks.

At least I know that when I take an evening to enjoy a bottle of delicious malt booze or a rum and coke, I'm conscious and aware enough to know I'm in no state to drive or do any kind of serious mental exercise.

The Gentleman:
(am I really breaking my lurking streak for this? Apparently...)

I feel a lot of people are missing the kind of big fact that there are multiple jurisdictions in the US that have de facto legalized cannabis, one of which I live in. As such, there's some information we do know.

[quote="CaitSeith" post="528.1055718.24254290"]The weed quality will be ruined thanks to capitalism.

Actually, in large part because it's now a heavily regulated industry, a lot of the quality of the products out there have gone up from their black market days. In my jurisdiction (Washington) the use of chemical pesticides and anti-fungal agents is extremely restricted, meaning you're less likely to have batches tainted with chemicals.

TLDR: Even trying just a little bit of booze/light drugs can be great, even if you don't do it often at all.

After getting into D&D recently I've been watching a lot of content related to RPGs, both videogame and tabletop, and the mechanics: how good are they, how well do they translate etc. Naturally Fallout: New Vegas came up. I've played about 60 hours, but the praise for the game always seemed a lot greater than my experience. I started to wonder if there was some hidden genius I'd totally missed because I'd played it as a straightforward action RPG. Maybe there were different builds to discover, new angles to quests I'd never considered and such. So I started a new character.

And less than 3 hours later I'm already bored. I can't for the life of me see where the supposed depth of this game is supposed to lie.

- The combat is as simplistic as you get in a game: shoot at enemies who run towards you in a straight line, then whack with a melee weapon when they get close. Energy weapons don't behave any differently from normal guns, the only difference is damage. There's no resistances or damage types at play, no status effects or sidegrades to consider.

- The stealth is frustratingly simplified to the point of it being barely functional: since the enemies are displayed in a single horizontal line as a single-colored blip, there's no way of telling their elevation or distance. This system worked in Skyrim because 1. the dungeons were straightforward enough to accommodate for this system and 2. it displayed your distance from the enemies, allowing for prioritization. Here stealth relies almost on trial and error: Oh, there was an enemy you couldn't see closer than the one you actually could? Well, shit out of luck, try again. Also, the 3-tiered display of hidden/caution/danger is too vague and rigid to give a proper understanding of how close to detection you actually are. The weapon spread being dictated by the Guns skill makes sniping very unreliable, and getting close enough to an enemy to take them out with a melee weapon requires a far higher Sneak skill than you can get in the beginning.

- The beginning essentially forces you to invest in a very specific set of skills and gear and nothing else. Stealth, Guns, Medicine and Lockpicking being the biggest. Since there's no way of clearing the early dungeons using skills like Speech, Survival or Explosives (due to lack of available resources), and all the directions from the starting town are essentially beefgated behind Deathclaws and Cazadors, the game plays more or less the same way each time.

- Gear collection amounts to just finding ones with different stats. Since, as mentioned before, weapons and gear are so simplified, there's just no debate about whether or not you should use a new weapon you find. The only question is if it has higher damage.

I guess I could ask if there's something I've missed, but as mentioned, I've already played this game for over 60 hours, and never discovered the supposed brilliance this game is supposed to have.

I open this thread and the OP is a post from another thread?

You seem to be interested in very different aspects of it than people like me and the people I know who like it. For me, and quite a few other players I've talked to, the gameplay in most RPG's is just windowdressing. If it's bearable and not too distracting or difficult, that's good enough since it isn't what you are here for. What is interesting is the world: the various different factions and their varying relations to one another and to themselves. When you are at Primm for example, the interesting question, the one I discussed with friends was: what is a good sherif? A robot, a captured former sherif or an NCR squad of troops annexing the whole town. What offers more protection? Is sacrificing Primm's independence worth it? etc. Shooting or sneaking past a rather dull part of gameplay is a means to that end.

One explanation of why somebody might like the game:

bartholen:
- The beginning essentially forces you to invest in a very specific set of skills and gear and nothing else. Stealth, Guns, Medicine and Lockpicking being the biggest. Since there's no way of clearing the early dungeons using skills like Speech, Survival or Explosives (due to lack of available resources), and all the directions from the starting town are essentially beefgated behind Deathclaws and Cazadors, the game plays more or less the same way each time.

- Gear collection amounts to just finding ones with different stats. Since, as mentioned before, weapons and gear are so simplified, there's just no debate about whether or not you should use a new weapon you find. The only question is if it has higher damage.

I've never used lockpicking or medicine at all, I'm not sure about visiting the 'dungeons' (what 'dungeons' do you mean? the vaults?) either and I generally have fairly cheap weapons throughout the game because I don't really care about that stuff. If you feel railroaded in fallout: new vegas, that is at least partially on the way you approach it.

aegix drakan:

The Gentleman:

Samtemdo8:
Eh, being completely sober is much better lifestyle, getting wasted and high sounds like a pain in the ass, I rather keep my senses and sanity thank you. And personally I just find it a waste of money buying Liquor and Narcotics and Cigarettes/Cigars.

Have you ever gotten high? Like, really high? Or plastered? Or gone on a hallucinogenic trip? These are things you can't really understand from an external perspective.

You don't even need to get plastered or high as a kite to understand it.

Like, I've never taken drugs, and I've only gotten seriously drunk one time (and even then I dind't experience blackout or puking. Just enough lack of motor coordination that I had to stop and personally assess that "Yeah, I think I had too much").

I still appreciate a good drink now and then. It's super relaxing to feel everything be chill and not really give a damn with a nice buzzy feeling.

If pot didn't carry with it four potential reactions (Super chill, Super energetic, Paranoia, or hallucinations) depending on your personal genetics, I'd likely give edibles a shot.

A friend of mine got into shrooms and swears by them that they're this amazing almost transcendent experience, and I understand why he and his GF like them...But I personally draw a line there for me. While I do enjoy loosening the reins of control once in a while and just de-stressing with some mild substance, I'm paranoid about letting go completely and riding out a drug trip. I like knowing where I am and what I'm doing and retaining control thanks.

At least I know that when I take an evening to enjoy a bottle of delicious malt booze or a rum and coke, I'm conscious and aware enough to know I'm in no state to drive or do any kind of serious mental exercise.

The Gentleman:
(am I really breaking my lurking streak for this? Apparently...)

I feel a lot of people are missing the kind of big fact that there are multiple jurisdictions in the US that have de facto legalized cannabis, one of which I live in. As such, there's some information we do know.

[quote="CaitSeith" post="528.1055718.24254290"]The weed quality will be ruined thanks to capitalism.

Actually, in large part because it's now a heavily regulated industry, a lot of the quality of the products out there have gone up from their black market days. In my jurisdiction (Washington) the use of chemical pesticides and anti-fungal agents is extremely restricted, meaning you're less likely to have batches tainted with chemicals.

TLDR: Even trying just a little bit of booze/light drugs can be great, even if you don't do it often at all.

Uh...what thread is this...I don't see Fallout: NV anywhere in your post, unless the whole game is a euphemism for drugs and alcohol?

hanselthecaretaker:

Uh...what thread is this...I don't see Fallout: NV anywhere in your post, unless the whole game is a euphemism for drugs and alcohol?

The forum gremlins appear to have appended that post from wherever onto this thread, the OP appears to be the second post.

bartholen:
And less than 3 hours later I'm already bored. I can't for the life of me see where the supposed depth of this game is supposed to lie.

I played F:NV about 200 hours when it came out over four different characters, and picked it up in the recent Steam sale to experience the DLC and just play it again for my own edification. My first character since picking it back up was a high-INT, high-LUK build; I'm playing on Very Hard hardcore mode, no companions (for obvious reasons); thus far I went to the Strip at level 2, got kicked out of all the casinos and got my implants, and went to Big MT at level 6. Considering I'm playing a Guns (specifically, shotguns) build, boy howdy was that a Really Bad Idea.

First, look, you have to remember this game came out in 2010 and was developed by a mid-tier studio. I'll be the first to admit that mechanically, it has not aged well. I mean, the game's big selling point on combat and mechanics was it introduced iron sights to the franchise for God's sake. So, if you're comparing it to later games, or playing it with the perspective of someone who has seen the advancements of game design in the past decade, of course you're going to be disappointed. That said...

The first critique of your point I noticed, is that you're complaining you must tailor stats, skills, and perks for specialism from the beginning of the game in order to play as a specialist from the beginning (low level characters can't snipe or get sneak melee kills, neither statement is actually true but we'll take the argument at face value). And/or, to have that level of specialism requires sacrifice in generalist skills and perks. To which I must say...no shit? It's an RPG. Character planning, understanding the strengths and deficiencies of each build as they progress as a consequence of the choices you have made during character creation and leveling up, and playing to those strengths while mitigating their weakness is kind of the point of, well, the entire genre.

And, with that said, mechanically the biggest strength of F:NV always has been the diversity of builds through a wide selection of traits and perks. The game easily accommodates min-max builds, theme builds, RP builds, and everything in between. They can be as specific, or as general-purpose, as you'd like, and there really are no traits or perks so powerful they're must-have across any build. But, character building and developing in F:NV requires sacrifice, understanding said sacrifice is a consequence of your choice, anticipating shortcomings, and adapting.

This current playthrough where I went to Big MT at level 6, and this is my first time playing Old World Blues. I had planned a more leisurely development, focusing on general-purpose and secondary skills, getting my ability to access and carry loot up, sustaining myself with advanced crafting recipes, and using sneak as a tactical advantage to overcome my character's deficiency in straight-up combat until I could pick up key combat perks. In other words, I had the worst possible build for that DLC, let alone at that character level, at the hardest difficulty in hardcore mode.

It's nothing I can't handle, but I had to throw my entire build plan out the window. Due to how something specific to that DLC works, I had to completely forget sneaking as any kind of tactical advantage and focus on what I had to do right then and there just to survive lobotomite and roboscorpion encounters. I needed Hand Loader ASAP to punch through enemy armor and health pools, but that meant I didn't have enough ammunition because I had to break down standard rounds. That forced me to pick up Scrounger, which I never planned on getting in the first place, to make sure I had enough components to make the hand-load ammo I needed. Hand-load ammo tends to degrade weapons faster, so my next priority was Jury Rigging to ensure my best weapons and armor stay up to par.

I've already anticipated my next problem is going to be armor durability. Went in with Reinforced Combat Armor, and swapped to Christine's COS Armor when durability on that ran low. I don't have the caps to have Sink repair them, and medium armor is notoriously scarce in OWB, so I'm going to have to downgrade to light armor which means I will need to pick up defensive perks next. That one's going to hurt, since I need damage perks yesterday but can't afford to take them quite yet, and at the point I can the enemies in OWB will have hit their next tier.

But I know what guns start showing up at that point. They're my absolute favorite guns in the game bar none, and I was already planning on this character being a cowboy build. When I get there -- and I will -- I won't be locked in Big MT with a bunch of lobotomites and radscorpions; they'll be locked in there with me.

And, in the course of scrambling to develop my character in such a way I can survive OWB in that difficulty and game mode, I had to sideline basically every other secondary skill for several levels now, chiefly Science, Medicine, Survival, and Speech, which has soft-gated me on progression through the DLC's actual plot and severely restricted my consumable use. That is the least of my worries, since I went into the DLC with plenty to last and am now at a point where I can craft food, water, and stimpacks to spare...but in the hour or two before I got the auto-doc, biological research station, and sink turned back on, I was going through so many consumables I actually managed to run low.

Is this a situation I got myself into thanks to overall ignorance of the DLC's content? Yup. Is this the most fun I've ever had in F:NV? Oh yeah. So, I hope that illustrates exactly how important build planning, resource management, identifying strengths and weaknesses, and adapting accordingly really are (well, can be depending on difficulty and game mode) in FNV's long term.

Minor points:

Perception heavily determines the PC's detection range. ED-E and Boone negate it, but the player can easily figure out where enemies are by learning what their detection range is in accordance with their PER, and looking around to figure out where they're likely to be since the game actually has decent NPC initial positioning and patrolling.

NCRCF is the first real "dungeon" players are likely to encounter, by following breadcrumbs from either Goodsprings or Primm. You can talk and/or sneak your way completely through it even if you kill Joe Cobb. Unless you're talking about the various caves in the area populated by insects, abominations, and/or animals, in which case...no shit? Even then, this only halfway passes muster since the Animal Friend perk makes the inhabitants of several of those caves non-hostile and you can walk right past them.

Speaking of, if you're looking for gear to fundamentally change game play experience, you're completely barking up the wrong tree. Traits and perks are what diversify and change play style in FNV, not gear.

The beginning of the game provides the player with enough consumables (chems and skill magazines) any build can pass the earliest skill-based challenges. You just have to look for them. Even the hardest early-game skill challenge -- repairing ED-E -- is laughably trivial considering the components required to fix it absent requisite Repair and/or Science are in the same room.

Last, I-15 between Goodsprings and Sloan is riddled with cazadores and deathclaws? Well, yeah.

The entire point of that is to push new players through Primm, Mojave Outpost, Nipton, Camp Searchlight, Novac, HELIOS One, 188 Trading Post, the Crimson Caravan Company, and Freeside before entering the Strip in their search for Benny. This puts the player in direct contact with the NCR and Legion, their ancillaries, independent factions, and establishes the backstory and nature of the conflicts between them while highlighting the benefits and drawbacks of each faction. Therefore, by the time the player gets to the Strip, they know what's happened and what's to come, and formed their opinions on who is right or wrong, which faction's vision may be best for the Mojave in the long run...then, in the course of resolving the initial conflict with Benny, does the player learn there's a third way.

Or you can walk straight to the Strip at level 1, which is not just doable but outright easy...once you've learned the map and the major landmarks to avoid. Literally, the key to it is "don't Leeroy the cazadores on I-15". That's only something you're likely to do once you've played the game through a first time, meaning you already know the game's backstory, world, and central conflicts, rendering the narrative purpose for the long way around obsolete.

It's not a "beefgate". It's good game design, and excellent world-building and storytelling.

bartholen:
After getting into D&D recently I've been watching a lot of content related to RPGs, both videogame and tabletop, and the mechanics: how good are they, how well do they translate etc. Naturally Fallout: New Vegas came up. I've played about 60 hours, but the praise for the game always seemed a lot greater than my experience. I started to wonder if there was some hidden genius I'd totally missed because I'd played it as a straightforward action RPG. Maybe there were different builds to discover, new angles to quests I'd never considered and such. So I started a new character.

And less than 3 hours later I'm already bored. I can't for the life of me see where the supposed depth of this game is supposed to lie.

- The combat is as simplistic as you get in a game: shoot at enemies who run towards you in a straight line, then whack with a melee weapon when they get close. Energy weapons don't behave any differently from normal guns, the only difference is damage. There's no resistances or damage types at play, no status effects or sidegrades to consider.

- The stealth is frustratingly simplified to the point of it being barely functional: since the enemies are displayed in a single horizontal line as a single-colored blip, there's no way of telling their elevation or distance. This system worked in Skyrim because 1. the dungeons were straightforward enough to accommodate for this system and 2. it displayed your distance from the enemies, allowing for prioritization. Here stealth relies almost on trial and error: Oh, there was an enemy you couldn't see closer than the one you actually could? Well, shit out of luck, try again. Also, the 3-tiered display of hidden/caution/danger is too vague and rigid to give a proper understanding of how close to detection you actually are. The weapon spread being dictated by the Guns skill makes sniping very unreliable, and getting close enough to an enemy to take them out with a melee weapon requires a far higher Sneak skill than you can get in the beginning.

- The beginning essentially forces you to invest in a very specific set of skills and gear and nothing else. Stealth, Guns, Medicine and Lockpicking being the biggest. Since there's no way of clearing the early dungeons using skills like Speech, Survival or Explosives (due to lack of available resources), and all the directions from the starting town are essentially beefgated behind Deathclaws and Cazadors, the game plays more or less the same way each time.

- Gear collection amounts to just finding ones with different stats. Since, as mentioned before, weapons and gear are so simplified, there's just no debate about whether or not you should use a new weapon you find. The only question is if it has higher damage.

I guess I could ask if there's something I've missed, but as mentioned, I've already played this game for over 60 hours, and never discovered the supposed brilliance this game is supposed to have.

1. Bethesda games alrways had a very simple form of combat, I found Fallout New Vegas' combat a bit more deep due to the fact that you can modify with different types of bullets and do little neat upgrades, sure it's still basic, but it's honestly deeper then most of Bethesda's games.

2. I won't argue with you on the stealth, heck I always hated stealth gameplay in non stealthy rpgs. Though I do think for gameplay variety it kinda works, but it's still shit.

3. I think it works because it forces to use spend points on your stats wisely, sure it may not be the want you want and it may hinder freedom ,but it does provide a much more tactical approach to surviving the wasteland.

4. The gear you find in most Fallout games are merely cosmetic, the only good ones are the power armor and the chinese stealth suit.

The main appeal of New Vegas, at least to me, was much of a choice your decisions actually mattered in the plot and side quests. Plus with how flexible the factions are in the game's main story. Don't like the two main factions vying for control of the Mojave? You want a truly free wasteland? Well lucky for you, you can do just that if you wanted to. Also the game's companions are truly memorable and they have their own missions you can do if you spend alot of time with them. For example, there's a follower who is or was apart of the Brotherhood. If you taken her to one of their bases, she begins to reveal important details about herself and the brotherhood of steel.

The writing is just better then anything Bethesda can write up, it's because Obsidian actually cares about making good stories to tell, and not just be this generic thing you expect from Bethesda games.

Plus the game has alot of side quests that are actually pretty interesting and well written. Sure some are duds but alot truly stick out. Like for example, you're task with tracking down a bunch of criminals who wronged the NCR. You gain quite a bit of perspective about them from the person who gives you the mission.

Also it has a killer soundtrack, and the humor is pretty good. Also it has no subways all over the place hindering exploration.

Although I should preface by saying I find most of the Fallout to be vaguely interesting concept, that falls either into horribly generic trope writing or very hit and miss efforts at humour.

A lot of the OP critique comes down on Bethesda's head though. They're the ones with their mediocre to janky mechanics and half-broken engine. That Obsidian got any improvement at all out of it was a small miracle.

Narrative structure is kind of on them too. Granted, I wasn't at whatever creative meetings they had, but big sandbox stuff is Bethesda's bread and butter, and having a defined path while ultimately not *forcing* the player to take that path is par for their course. The only thing you can try and do to add some sort of smoothing narrative to that is by plonking some obstacle in the way.I'd chalk it up to a conflict of priorities, Bethesda wants to sell worlds without much concern for stories, and Obsidian does in-depth narratives.

The settings always been kind of ludicrous with itself. Besides Vault dwellers themselves who have the benefit of knowledge of the before-nuke world, we find literal hordes of archvies and information from the pre-apocalypse. So all the nonsense "Planet of Hats" esque stuff that goes on doesn't make a lick of sense, and only gets worse the farther out they get from the apocalypse as more Vault Dwellers merge into the population and more pre-war stuff is unearthed.

Seth Carter:
The settings always been kind of ludicrous with itself. Besides Vault dwellers themselves who have the benefit of knowledge of the before-nuke world, we find literal hordes of archvies and information from the pre-apocalypse. So all the nonsense "Planet of Hats" esque stuff that goes on doesn't make a lick of sense, and only gets worse the farther out they get from the apocalypse as more Vault Dwellers merge into the population and more pre-war stuff is unearthed.

Honestly, that's something New Vegas tackles directly with no regrets or evasion. It just happens to occur within the confines of the Legion, and for the fact that's the most objectionable, and consequently least-favored, faction among players it goes generally unexplored.

The entire point is, the world was devastated by nuclear holocaust. The Old World and its myriad of competing ideas, beliefs, values, norms, technological wonders, and systems of government failed so horrifically those who survived and came after are mutated, ill, mentally and physically broken, people fighting, often literally tooth and nail, for mere survival in an unforgiving radioactive wasteland that's living mockery of their own pathetic existence. There can be no going back, least of all for the fear humanity will simply repeat its mistakes, but the only way forward is by repeating those mistakes and hoping the light at the end of the tunnel isn't another atomic bomb.

All pre-War archives offer, is the record of humanity's failures that led to the Great War. They don't offer a genuine path forward, just a list of paths to avoid. That's why the NCR, as of New Vegas, is a failing republic; that's why the BoS believes humanity cannot be trusted with high technology; that's why the Institute believes humanity is an evolutionary dead-end; that's even why the Enclave wants (wanted) the hell off this shitty rock, but needs the resources of the world outside and the obeisance of its remaining people, to do it. But most importantly, it's why the Followers want to try something no one in the Old World tried -- not really, anyhow, not in a major or lasting sense for its own sake -- just help people improve themselves and their societies, and find a better way through coexistence and cooperation.

And that's why Caesar left the Followers. He saw and believed people will always have competing interests and beliefs which will draw them inevitably into conflict. Caesar didn't believe there was such a thing as "a way forward" as the Followers believe, because humanity's shortcomings will always assert themselves over the long term. And, for that, the Followers are doomed to failure. Caesar believed the only way forward was through tyranny -- to build a monolithic empire that subsumed all competing interest and identity before itself.

We can sit here and poke holes in Caesar's ideology and values, and the Legion's policies and sustainability, all day. I'll be the first to do it. But, whether or not the Legion was a good idea is irrelevant to my point. Pre-War society already was a "world of hats"; that was the root cause of the Great War, and that it didn't make a lick of sense was the entire point.

War never changes.

Eacaraxe:
*snip*

"Planet of Hats" refers to a trope common in 50/60s sci-fi to have planets of Pirates/Cowboys/Greeks/etc.

The Legion might certainly fit that on a purely aesthetic level, but its stuff like the Kings or the wannabe Gangsters and Daimond City's baseball guys (where its even lampshaded in 4).

Obviously there's a lots of valid reasons for people to reject the NCR (for the Enclave for the evil version) "rebuilding America" when America was part of the apocalypse in the Fallout universe.

The total ignorance of pre-War life demonstrated by most of the populace, which comes to an extreme with the weird gimmick groups, is what makes no sense. It wasn't like humanity flipped back to the dark ages. People are literate, large amounts of them are technologically adept. Actual pre-war survivors are still around as ghouls, and the non-Vault dwellers have a lineage to survivors of their own (which you at best handwave away with the idea of radiation making them mentally deteriorate). Then actual Vault Dwellers are either pre-war via cryogenics or have had (barring some cases) education that stems from that period, they were never in what there was of a dark age.

Its a commmon thread in post-apocalypse settings (The Last of Us comes to mind, where functioning electrical grids exist alongside a world where you have to scavenge random things to make a crappy knife), but Fallout takes it to extremes by having inhabitants that seem not like humans emerging from an apocalyptic event, but like some weird aliens or clones that stumbled onto the planet after all the humans got wiped out and tried to start simulating them with a total lack of context.

We're living in interesting times. I wonder how that post ever managed to get included as the OP.

OT: I didn't actually find NV to be all that much better that FO3. I liked them both about equally, though I'm not sure I've ever actually finished the main story of NV. If I have, I don't remember it.

Seth Carter:
Snippet.

If you're talking about the smaller factions, I see more where you're coming from but still respectfully disagree. To me, those groups and their "themes" represent coping mechanisms and the need to develop a sense of identity and belonging in the wasteland, along with some form of sensibility or ethics. What you have to remember, is that while most factions PC's interact with on a diplomatic level tend towards more knowledgeable, at least practically, most aren't and the panoply of human (or mutant, or ghoul) experience in the wastes can be found. And, while it's hard to recognize in the games, formal education is an extreme rarity.

Even the Brotherhood, the second-most technologically-advanced faction across the entire franchise, lacks genuine interest in scholarly or non-militaristic pursuits, and has regressed to a neo-feudal structure dominated by master-apprentice relationships. There are two places in the franchise this is expressed perfectly: in Veronica's side quest in FNV, if you retrieve the Vault 22 agricultural data for the Brotherhood, they just don't care and fail to see the importance of more resilient, higher-yield crops; and in FO4, during the side quest where you're sent to gather food tribute for the Brotherhood, it's made clear even scribes consider agricultural knowledge unimportant and the job of growing food beneath them.

One thing Caesar, Graham, and even Ulysses all point out, is many of the tribes the Followers and Legion came across, had practically regressed to a hunter-gatherer state, and had to be re-taught from the ground up how to read, write, use even the simplest technologies, and function in a civilized society. Stacked up against the NCR, the various Strip factions (including the Kings), the Brotherhood, even factions from other games like the Institute, the Legion is actually the most intellectual faction in the big picture, save the Followers.

The Great Khans' knowledge was all oral tradition, even though their primary skill was chem-making and their culture was cobbled together from some conglomeration of Mongols and biker clubs. The Kings were yet another illiterate tribe which developed into essentially an Elvis cargo cult.

The problem isn't a "total ignorance" of pre-War life as you put it. The problem is incomplete understanding of pre-War life, which leads to eccentricities and idiosyncrasies. That's not just perfectly reasonable, it's downright logical, especially when one considers that however well-traveled and knowledgeable PC's and their companion(s) may (or not) be, they're just one person in the wastes whose impact may be substantial, but they're not omnipotent or omnipresent. Look at the canonical events between Fallout 1 and 2; for the Vault Dweller's potential extensive knowledge of science and medicine, and practical knowledge of the wastes after the events of the first game, that of the Vault 13 exiles that followed him into the wastes, and the practical knowledge of the wastelanders that joined him, the very best they could do was a tribal subsistence farming society...and even that was a feat.

Honestly, what you're criticizing (social groups being built on incomplete understanding of past societies, or downright misinformation) is something that even happens in the real world today. Cargo cults exist. Laugh, but UFO and ancient astronaut cults were a thing in the mid-20th Century. Look at the various New Age movements -- neo-paganism, kabbalah, various psychedelic cults, tantra, misapplied or misunderstood buddhism and/or hinduism -- which try to re-create religions and practices long lost to history, or are based on appropriations, bastardizations, misunderstandings, and/or misapplications of native American, African, or Asian metaphysics and practices.

I'm not saying all New Age movements, practices, or syncretism are "wrong", obviously, but that in many cases they bear little if any semblance to the historical practices and beliefs upon which they're built.

While NV had better quest structure and story than 3, focusing on troupes was a big mistake. At least the Great Khans from Fallout 1 had more persoanlity than just trying to be Mongol. For example, Caeser clearly has his own ideals but that is not dependant on just being in the Legion. (Even though he was the leader.) Everything is tied to the theme of that tribe, thus IMO making Megaton a more interesting place for characters. Because most NV characters have to follow a formula. If there were a few that grew up with their own ideology rather than something being tied to the past, it would have been better. Or maybe even just groups that grew up in response to other groups (communism, nationalism) would have been good for a change of pace. Stormclocks being an example, even the Thalamor.

And the way slwvery worked was far more like the American south, rather than Roman. And slavery is used far too often to denoted 'bad'. Find a more interesting way to display evil please developers.

The narrative structure of NV deletes a lot of exploration opportunities. Obsidian prefer to explore characters and challenges more (which is a very worthy goal.) Forcing you down one of two tracks was a direct result of Obsidian wanting to tell a story in a partciular order. That means you aren't allowed to go your own way.

Also, I have never talked about the quest in Primm for sherif. You know that decision won't really matter becuase you have no reason to go back there. It's not even an interesting question it raises. It's like the decision you make in Arfue. At least the Brotherhood was about questioning their effectiveness in the world. I thought Fallout 3 Bortherhood was better becuase there was a clear rift and both sides had good points. Fallout 4 strongman takeover was interesting too. Almost putting both sides as the combined winner by wanting to positively effect the world but through forces.

The other interesting part of an RPG is what you define as an RPG. Do you want your choices restricted so 'they matter' like limited skill progression in NV or do you want to had the 'freedom' of being whoever you want like Skyrim (maxing every skill.) Becuase these require very different things. The latter means you can become trapped very easily becuase you haven't been given the tools needed to play the game. The latter means you do pick a role, you can change on the fly and thus there is no emphasis on role playing a character

Seth Carter:
Its a commmon thread in post-apocalypse settings (The Last of Us comes to mind, where functioning electrical grids exist alongside a world where you have to scavenge random things to make a crappy knife), but Fallout takes it to extremes by having inhabitants that seem not like humans emerging from an apocalyptic event, but like some weird aliens or clones that stumbled onto the planet after all the humans got wiped out and tried to start simulating them with a total lack of context.

Which I think was part of the point in Fallout 1/2. Keep in mind that the first two games (and NV to some extent) were heavily inspired by 80's and early 90's pulp comics. The idea of 50's Science! as the basis for what constitutes actual science and the laws of physics in the Fallout-universe is one of the obvious results of this. The tropey Location of Hats that every place you visit is another. Fallout made sure that pretty much every location you visited was a particular trope (Junktown was your Mad Max-place, Shady Sands were the rebuilders, Adytum was the 'making a better future among the ruins' etc.) because that's how the comics that inspired the game would have dealt with the people inhabiting the post-apocalypse.

There's a discussion to be had about whether Bethesda understood or cared about this pulp comic heritage, but it always helps to keep in mind that Fallout is not meant to be a realistic or plausible post-apocalypse simulator. It is meant to be an over-the-top pulp story set in a heavily stylized version of the post-apocalypse.

Gethsemani:

Seth Carter:
Its a commmon thread in post-apocalypse settings (The Last of Us comes to mind, where functioning electrical grids exist alongside a world where you have to scavenge random things to make a crappy knife), but Fallout takes it to extremes by having inhabitants that seem not like humans emerging from an apocalyptic event, but like some weird aliens or clones that stumbled onto the planet after all the humans got wiped out and tried to start simulating them with a total lack of context.

Which I think was part of the point in Fallout 1/2. Keep in mind that the first two games (and NV to some extent) were heavily inspired by 80's and early 90's pulp comics. The idea of 50's Science! as the basis for what constitutes actual science and the laws of physics in the Fallout-universe is one of the obvious results of this. The tropey Location of Hats that every place you visit is another. Fallout made sure that pretty much every location you visited was a particular trope (Junktown was your Mad Max-place, Shady Sands were the rebuilders, Adytum was the 'making a better future among the ruins' etc.) because that's how the comics that inspired the game would have dealt with the people inhabiting the post-apocalypse.

There's a discussion to be had about whether Bethesda understood or cared about this pulp comic heritage, but it always helps to keep in mind that Fallout is not meant to be a realistic or plausible post-apocalypse simulator. It is meant to be an over-the-top pulp story set in a heavily stylized version of the post-apocalypse.

I assume that when Obsidan were making the comments that Fallout 3 was like the 50s and NV (and 1 and 2) were the feel of the 50s this is what they meant. I've never understood that comment until now. Also, I think that the original Fallouts were based on a troupe but not a slave to them. I.e. The characters could have their own persoanlity not tied to the theme of the town.

 

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