Apparently Riot has some problem with women: nasty behind-the-scenes stuff

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The Lunatic:

Saelune:
This is a terrible set of views to have.

Any allowance of abuse in humanity affects everyone else by lowering the bar of decency. It shouldn't have to directly hurt you for you to want it to be better, because when it IS you, you will want others to care.

So, companies should be forced to adopt a culture which is agreeable to specific groups of people?
It's a private company. It's none of my business what they do, and neither is it any of yours. Your own verdict of what's "Better" and what isn't is completely worthless in this situation, it's not your company to control, nor your culture to influence.

erttheking:
The people who feel uncomfortable working in the industry around this? I know this doesn?t bother you, but you seem to be an outlier in the LGBT community on that issue.

I wouldn't feel comfortable working in San Fransico as an LGBT person, where's my outcry?

Does everyone get an outcry? Nobody I know within the LGBT community cares about these kinds of things. I mean, hell, even in my social groups we use "Homophobic slurs" all the time, and we're a mix of homosexuals and straight people. So, who knows, maybe we're all outliers.

Companies should not be abusive and terrible to its employees or anyone else! If you really do not care as you say, then why are you so bothered by us imposing our views on a company that you are not part of? If it 'doesnt affect you' then why are you opposing it?

We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

You're doing the thing where you don't respond to arguments and just restate your points? Don't expect me to reply to your new points if you couldn't be bothered to reply to my old ones then.

erttheking:

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

You?re doing the thing where you don?t respond to arguments and just restate your points? Don?t expect me to reply to your new points if you couldn?t be bothered to reply to my old ones then.

I don't expect you to reply to me at all. In fact I prefer you didn't, and save your offense for points that actually matter.

erttheking:
Are you turning this into a ?I?m not complaining about this so no one should? thing? Don?t do that. I know quite a few LGBT people who would livid over this. The LGBT community in general seems to be against this kinda shit. And if you want an outcry, well, go ahead and make one. Anyone who feels wronged can make one. I did it in this thread.

Also what you said among a group of friends is different from what you say in the job. Like night and day different.

No. I'm saying that LGB people are individuals, not to be weaponized against whatever the latest outrage is. We're not just some bloc you get to deploy whenever somebody does something you don't agree with.

And if you can't give me, an LGB person a reason to care what goes on in the private doings of a private company, you don't really get to swing that around so easily.

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

I do not view myself as walking on eggshells with what I say, think or do because I do not think say or do horrible things to or about other people. Expecting people to treat others with respect is not " walking on eggshells" it is what should be expected for a society to be able to function. One's rights end where another's begins and treating other people like shat should not be considered more valuable by society than ones right to not want to have that imposed upon them.

It is how people function, and it is how people move forward. Society should be rewarding those who make others feel welcomed and treat others with respect, not those who seek to exclude and abuse. It is not beneficial to society in any way to encourage abuse and toxic behavior. It is however, extremely beneficial for people to work together helping one another to increase productivity to advance society and the sooner we eliminate unnecessary toxic environments the sooner people can focus on productivity instead. people can have disagreements, and discussions with many different viewpoints without being sexist, racist or xenophobic, it is the toxicity that stifles discussion, and no being welcoming and respectful of others does not in any way stifle creative or divergent thinking, in fact without the toxicity, it allows for creativity to flourish as people are not hindered by worry about being viewed as being less than equal when presenting ideas.

Lil devils x:

I do not view myself as walking on eggshells with what I say, think or do because I do not think say or do horrible things to other people. Expecting people to treat others with respect is not " walking on eggshells" it is what should be expected for a society to be able to function. One's rights end where another's begins and treating other people like shat should not be considered more valuable by society than ones right to not want to have that imposed upon them.

What I say with my friends should be our business and if you eavesdrop and hear something you don't like, then that is your fucking problem not ours. It has nothing to do with treating others with respect because I am not talking about blatant shit talking here.

Lil devils x:

It is how people function, and it is how people move forward. Society should be rewarding those who make others feel welcomed and treat others with respect, not those who seek to exclude and abuse. It is not beneficial to society in any way to encourage abuse and toxic behavior. It is however, extremely beneficial for people to work together helping one another to increase productivity to advance society and the sooner we eliminate necessary toxic environments the sooner people can focus on productivity instead. people can have disagreements, and discussions with many different viewpoints without being sexist, racist or xenophobic, it is the toxicity that stifles discussion, and no being welcoming and respectful of others does not in any way stifle creative or divergent thinking, in fact without the toxicity, it allows for creativity to flourish as people are not hindered by worry about being viewed as being less than equal when presenting ideas.

I would argue here that this all-inclusive society you describe would only result in a worse and weaker society. Growing up I was bullied a lot, lunch money, insults, slugged, the whole deal. But I grew strong because of it, I went to gym, I starting bettering myself and I believe that my experiences growing up made me a stronger person. Now people are so cottled, and constantly wrapped in blankets and give participation trophies for merely wiping their asses, that you are now getting these overly sensitive crybabies who can't handle any sort of interpersonal conflict with dignity. Instead they whine and they cry about how offended they are about everything.

I mean come on, that article was about a woman who couldn't handle Air Conditioning? I mean really, bring a fucking sweater! Why does every one else have to melt because you cant handle shit? The A/C was oppressive? Yet the fact that the media treats these stories seriously, give people the courage to try and be more outrageous with what offends them. Where then does it stop? Where is the line of reason? When does the comfort of one person at the cost of everyone else, mean that one person has to simply suck it up?

I just don't get it.

Look the sexual behavior and comments, if they are in fact happening at Riot and these articles aren't just fabrications for attention, are not something I would stand by either. But the other stuff, where the guys are just joking with each other using swears and insulting words by means of affection, is just what guys do. My friends and I call each other bitches, cocksucker, etc all the time, it is a very guy thing. Sure not EVERY guy group does that, but not every group of guys are as cool as mine so I dunno what to tell you.

Commanderfantasy:

Look the sexual behavior and comments, if they are in fact happening at Riot and these articles aren't just fabrications for attention, are not something I would stand by either. But the other stuff, where the guys are just joking with each other using swears and insulting words by means of affection, is just what guys do. My friends and I call each other bitches, cocksucker, etc all the time, it is a very guy thing. Sure not EVERY guy group does that, but not every group of guys are as cool as mine so I dunno what to tell you.

It's a workplace. There are expectations of professionalism and courtesy, if the workplace is going to be a worthwhile place to be.

If a group of friends wants to talk shit at eachother, they can go ahead-- groups of friends can do so when they know eachother well enough, and are in an informal setting. That doesn't mean that the same behaviour can be replicated anywhere, with anyone, and not be alienating or unpleasant.

It's basic workplace decorum. That's literally all it is.

Commanderfantasy:

I would argue here that this all-inclusive society you describe would only result in a worse and weaker society. Growing up I was bullied a lot, lunch money, insults, slugged, the whole deal. But I grew strong because of it, I went to gym, I starting bettering myself and I believe that my experiences growing up made me a stronger person. Now people are so cottled, and constantly wrapped in blankets and give participation trophies for merely wiping their asses, that you are now getting these overly sensitive crybabies who can't handle any sort of interpersonal conflict with dignity. Instead they whine and they cry about how offended they are about everything.

This whole "school of hard knocks" philosophy is absolute bunkum. It's a surefire way to create a restrictive society, in which people are forced to conform to a specific image of what they should be. Cue self-repression, anxiousness, unresolved anger, and an inability to open up, coupled with an inordinate focus on physical strength above intellect and emotional maturity.

Sure, some people might strive-- others will not, through no fault of their own. We do not live in this ridiculous hunter-gatherer society in which we all must be physically mega-strong and stoic. That's an anachronism.

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

There's a difference between walking on eggshells and not sexually harassing people. Yeah walking around head to the ground never saying anything for fear of offending the person who doesn't like words is too much. But walking around openly telling women they're on your short list of women to fuck, and ranking the women in the office by who is most fuckable and farting on people's faces shouldn't be tolerated.

I've worked in offices where even talking about colleagues being sexy or hot at happy hour on a Friday can get you in trouble with HR on Monday.

Silentpony:

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

There's a difference between walking on eggshells and not sexually harassing people. Yeah walking around head to the ground never saying anything for fear of offending the person who doesn't like words is too much. But walking around openly telling women they're on your short list of women to fuck, and ranking the women in the office by who is most fuckable and farting on people's faces shouldn't be tolerated.

I've worked in offices where even talking about colleagues being sexy or hot at happy hour on a Friday can get you in trouble with HR on Monday.

Good point. So does Riot not have an HR? Are these women just content to sit and be sad? When they are told these comments, get dirty images in their inbox, all of these things that could very well be reported to an HR of some kind....why did that not happen? Again employees are protected from reporting issues. Especially HR reports that can be given anonymously, so why did they never do that? Could it be that these articles are bullshit?

The way these things are described, they are crimes. Yet nobody reports them...hmm....curious. I don't care how afraid for a job someone is, you'd still report crimes. Or at least someone who isn't as afraid would report them. I mean somebody there had to have the guts to report this? Yet nobody stepped up? Instead they chose to write blogs, or contribute to random kotaku articles?

It all just smells like bogus.

The Lunatic:

erttheking:
Are you turning this into a ?I?m not complaining about this so no one should? thing? Don?t do that. I know quite a few LGBT people who would livid over this. The LGBT community in general seems to be against this kinda shit. And if you want an outcry, well, go ahead and make one. Anyone who feels wronged can make one. I did it in this thread.

Also what you said among a group of friends is different from what you say in the job. Like night and day different.

No. I'm saying that LGB people are individuals, not to be weaponized against whatever the latest outrage is. We're not just some bloc you get to deploy whenever somebody does something you don't agree with.

And if you can't give me, an LGB person a reason to care what goes on in the private doings of a private company, you don't really get to swing that around so easily.

Doesn't the fact that LGBT people are individuals and not a bloc lend credence to this kind of stuff not being allowed in the work place? Sure you don't mind it, but you just said they aren't a bloc. Plenty of LGBT people aren't ok with it, they can't just be ignored. And I'm speaking on behalf of my LGBT friends thank you very much. You don't get to just take that away from me because you disagree with me.

One word. Empathy. Empathy to fellow human beings who suffer for no reason. It's sonething you either have or don't, do if I need to give you a reason to care about other people, I don't think there's anything I can do

Commanderfantasy:

Silentpony:

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

There's a difference between walking on eggshells and not sexually harassing people. Yeah walking around head to the ground never saying anything for fear of offending the person who doesn't like words is too much. But walking around openly telling women they're on your short list of women to fuck, and ranking the women in the office by who is most fuckable and farting on people's faces shouldn't be tolerated.

I've worked in offices where even talking about colleagues being sexy or hot at happy hour on a Friday can get you in trouble with HR on Monday.

Good point. So does Riot not have an HR? Are these women just content to sit and be sad? When they are told these comments, get dirty images in their inbox, all of these things that could very well be reported to an HR of some kind....why did that not happen? Again employees are protected from reporting issues. Especially HR reports that can be given anonymously, so why did they never do that? Could it be that these articles are bullshit?

The way these things are described, they are crimes. Yet nobody reports them...hmm....curious. I don't care how afraid for a job someone is, you'd still report crimes. Or at least someone who isn't as afraid would report them. I mean somebody there had to have the guts to report this? Yet nobody stepped up? Instead they chose to write blogs, or contribute to random kotaku articles?

It all just smells like bogus.

Well you have to consider the power dynamic. If your boss is sending you dick pics and you go to HR and report him, he can just fire you. Likewise what happens if someone from HR is the person harassing? If there really were email chains between dozens of male employees talking about hot or not, and you find out the head of HR and the company lawyer are in on it, what recourse do you have? Who do you complain to if its a 'boy's club' and they're looking out for one another?
That's what we mean about an atmosphere of harassment, where it feels like all the men in positions of power or positions to help are the ones doing the harassing.

Silentpony:

Commanderfantasy:

Silentpony:

There's a difference between walking on eggshells and not sexually harassing people. Yeah walking around head to the ground never saying anything for fear of offending the person who doesn't like words is too much. But walking around openly telling women they're on your short list of women to fuck, and ranking the women in the office by who is most fuckable and farting on people's faces shouldn't be tolerated.

I've worked in offices where even talking about colleagues being sexy or hot at happy hour on a Friday can get you in trouble with HR on Monday.

Good point. So does Riot not have an HR? Are these women just content to sit and be sad? When they are told these comments, get dirty images in their inbox, all of these things that could very well be reported to an HR of some kind....why did that not happen? Again employees are protected from reporting issues. Especially HR reports that can be given anonymously, so why did they never do that? Could it be that these articles are bullshit?

The way these things are described, they are crimes. Yet nobody reports them...hmm....curious. I don't care how afraid for a job someone is, you'd still report crimes. Or at least someone who isn't as afraid would report them. I mean somebody there had to have the guts to report this? Yet nobody stepped up? Instead they chose to write blogs, or contribute to random kotaku articles?

It all just smells like bogus.

Well you have to consider the power dynamic. If your boss is sending you dick pics and you go to HR and report him, he can just fire you. Likewise what happens if someone from HR is the person harassing? If there really were email chains between dozens of male employees talking about hot or not, and you find out the head of HR and the company lawyer are in on it, what recourse do you have? Who do you complain to if its a 'boy's club' and they're looking out for one another?
That's what we mean about an atmosphere of harassment, where it feels like all the men in positions of power or positions to help are the ones doing the harassing.

I don't know Pony, that seems like an awful lot of terrible things have to line up in order for you to have literally no one you can go to for help. Riot is a little too big to be dominated by a few bad apples in such a way that the rest of the employee's are on lock down.

Commanderfantasy:

We live in a society now where I have to actually be careful how I joke with my friends when we are out to dinner, or out playing cards or whatever, because if some passerby takes offense they can then start a witch hunt to try an ruin my life.

Commanderfantasy:

What I say with my friends should be our business and if you eavesdrop and hear something you don't like, then that is your fucking problem not ours.

This is dishonest and you know it.

So one here is talking about people making snarky "you jackass/cocksucker/etc" jabs at each other at dinner or cards while some overbearing SJW eavesdrops from 3 booths away and screams offense at something they wouldn't have heard unless directly listening in.

This thread is discussing bigger toxic stuff happening at WORK, not out on your own time, and not harmless mildly annoying snipes.

As in, you are basically "locked" in a building with these people, maybe even in a room with them and you can't leave when they start saying not just the occasional snipe of affection at each other. Where you HAVE to hear their shit every single day probably for hours on end.

It has nothing to do with treating others with respect because I am not talking about blatant shit talking here.

I assure you that 99% of us here are talking about the blatant shit talking here (the rape jokes, the n-word and so on) and not the little man-snipes.

It's you who keeps pretending this is about the smaller stuff that we're not talking about.

Look the sexual behavior and comments, if they are in fact happening at Riot and these articles aren't just fabrications for attention, are not something I would stand by either.

Ok, so then we get to the actual stuff that the people here are discussing and not the "dudes making friendly snipes at each other over dinner being censored in my imagination", and the first thing you do is add qualifiers like "IF they are in fact happening" and "IF these articles aren't just fabrication for attention".

Dude, there's stories of nasty sexist gross behaviour directed against women all over the place and they're especially prevalent in tech. There's been multiple studies, multiple exposes, and tons of these stories over years.

Considering the mountain of evidence over the years, it's pretty likely this is in fact something that happens a lot and you should probably give them some benefit of the doubt when yet another one shows up confirming the same pattern at work.

I mean, either that or women are somehow secretly the illuminati and control all the media and are making up everything as part of a master plan to get attention. Which is ludicrous to think of.

But the other stuff, where the guys are just joking with each other using swears and insulting words by means of affection, is just what guys do.

Again, no one is talking about what you and your pals do on your own time. This thread is about the stuff going down at work, where professionalism is expected and you can't just walk out, and is about the more flagrant shit.

Also, sniping seems to mostly only be a guy thing among a certain segment of people. I've rarely seen it myself, outside of the sports-obsessed crowd, or the fratbro type crowd.

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

If being considerate of other people is so inconvenient for you...maybe that's your problem?

And I mean, you want what? To be able to say whatever you want without worry? Then why do -we- have to shut up? Either way, someone has to mind what they say and do, why should it be the mean people who get that freedom?

Silentpony:

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

There's a difference between walking on eggshells and not sexually harassing people. Yeah walking around head to the ground never saying anything for fear of offending the person who doesn't like words is too much. But walking around openly telling women they're on your short list of women to fuck, and ranking the women in the office by who is most fuckable and farting on people's faces shouldn't be tolerated.

I've worked in offices where even talking about colleagues being sexy or hot at happy hour on a Friday can get you in trouble with HR on Monday.

Look, if we don't defend men's right to fart in people's faces who will?

Today it's farting in people's faces, tomorrow it will be locking men up in camps milking them for their jizz in a female led society.

Saelune:

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

If being considerate of other people is so inconvenient for you...maybe that's your problem?

And I mean, you want what? To be able to say whatever you want without worry? Then why do -we- have to shut up? Either way, someone has to mind what they say and do, why should it be the mean people who get that freedom?

And therein lies the irony: those who are sick of people "whining and complaining" about "not getting their way" are themselves whining and complaining that such is a threat to their own way... which they have. It's the "I just ate; quit complaining that you're hungry" school of thoughtlessness; it's hard to believe people can be that dense, but I guess it stands to reason all those push-ups and protein shakes might form an impenetrable layer of testosterone around normally functioning, empathetic brain...

undeadsuitor:

...tomorrow it will be locking men up in camps milking them for their jizz in a female led society.

.....I'd be ok with that. Is there a sign-up sheet or online registration? What time does the bus leave?

Saelune:

Commanderfantasy:
We are quickly becoming a society where everyone has to walk on eggshells with everything they do, say, and even think. Or someone will feel oppressed, threatened, or abused by them. It is not how people function, and it is not how we move forward. But because society seems to be rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized" then we will continue to be in this cycle until what happens is that nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts.

If being considerate of other people is so inconvenient for you...maybe that's your problem?

And I mean, you want what? To be able to say whatever you want without worry? Then why do -we- have to shut up? Either way, someone has to mind what they say and do, why should it be the mean people who get that freedom?

Because the ability to feel empathy is obviously nothing but

"rewarding people who can feel the most abused, the most "victimized.""

It will also inevitably lead to

"nobody hires anyone who disagrees with them, no one is friends with anyone who could have a different view of the world, and we all form these terrible communal bubbles were we hang out as like-minds so that we can't possibly hurt other's with words and thoughts"

tldr:

EMPATHY IS FOR BETA SOYBOY CUCKS!

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

When a company is 80% male, there's probably going to be a bro culture... duh, it's because there are a bunch of bros there.

Every large company in existence has disgruntled ex-employees who feel like they were undervalued and treated unfairly.

And with 100 million players and $1.6 billion in revenue... how can anyone seriously be critical of their hiring and promotion practices? Based on results, I'd say they have a pretty damn good business model, one that should probably be studied and emulated.

Kerg3927:
Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

When a company is 80% male, there's probably going to be a bro culture... duh, it's because there are a bunch of bros there.

Every large company in existence has disgruntled ex-employees who feel like they were undervalued and treated unfairly.

And with 100 million players and $1.6 billion in revenue... how can anyone seriously be critical of their hiring and promotion practices? Based on results, I'd say they have a pretty damn good business model, one that should probably be studied and emulated.

One: boys will be boys is horse shit.

Two: Please don't sell men short by implying they can't make a woman feel welcome

Three: Money isn't a defense from criticism.

Kerg3927:
Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

When a company is 80% male, there's probably going to be a bro culture... duh, it's because there are a bunch of bros there.

Every large company in existence has disgruntled ex-employees who feel like they were undervalued and treated unfairly.

And with 100 million players and $1.6 billion in revenue... how can anyone seriously be critical of their hiring and promotion practices? Based on results, I'd say they have a pretty damn good business model, one that should probably be studied and emulated.

I work with some of blokiest blokes that ever did bloke, but I feel confident in saying that if our boss walked up and farted in the face of any of them, they'd need the jaws of life to remove the enraged boot from their arse. Because there's a difference between being a bit of a lad, and being a disgusting arsehole.

Like surely the social contract in a professional environment would imply that doing that is just fucking rude?

If such issues regarding sexual harassment did occur, legal recourse and not crying at kotaku is the way to go.

I fully support their idea of questioning people's gamer cred, despite the fact that they seem to like games like shooters more than Rpgs which would disqualify me from their idea of a gamer. It's fully their right to hire people who fit in with their ideal image of the gamer because that's how they'll best make the games they want to make.

That a lot of women fail to qualify is only a side-effect of the fact that almost everyone who isn't a fan of call of duty or strategy pc games would fail to qualify.

The Lunatic:
No. I'm saying that LGB people are individuals, not to be weaponized against whatever the latest outrage is. We're not just some bloc you get to deploy whenever somebody does something you don't agree with.

Well if thats the case...

The Lunatic:
And if you can't give me, an LGB person a reason to care what goes on in the private doings of a private company, you don't really get to swing that around so easily.

...then why does it matter if you're LGBT? You just said its not a hiveminded bloc, so by your own argument its not like you can speak for them as a whole any more than ert can. You're trying to use it as leverage to make your opinion seem more valid while insisting people shouldn't use it as leverage. Its just hypocrisy dude

Commanderfantasy:
I would argue here that this all-inclusive society you describe would only result in a worse and weaker society. Growing up I was bullied a lot, lunch money, insults, slugged, the whole deal. But I grew strong because of it, I went to gym, I starting bettering myself and I believe that my experiences growing up made me a stronger person. Now people are so cottled, and constantly wrapped in blankets and give participation trophies for merely wiping their asses, that you are now getting these overly sensitive crybabies who can't handle any sort of interpersonal conflict with dignity. Instead they whine and they cry about how offended they are about everything.

I'm going to level with you, but this screed right here makes you sound massively insecure. You're doing that thing where you try to project strength so much ("Look at how strong I am! Look at what a Real Man I am! Not like the rest of those coddled babies!") that all I can see is weakness. Because trying to make sure everyone around you believes you're a tough guy only tells me that you need validation before you can believe it yourself. Is that why stuff like this actually offends you? Because with less people approving of the Macho Man schtick you have less validation for this persona you've built? Just something for you to mull over a little

Dreiko:
If such issues regarding sexual harassment did occur, legal recourse and not crying at kotaku is the way to go.

I fully support their idea of questioning people's gamer cred, despite the fact that they seem to like games like shooters more than Rpgs which would disqualify me from their idea of a gamer. It's fully their right to hire people who fit in with their ideal image of the gamer because that's how they'll best make the games they want to make.

That a lot of women fail to qualify is only a side-effect of the fact that almost everyone who isn't a fan of call of duty or strategy pc games would fail to qualify.

Uhh, legal recourse is in the hands of civil law and not criminal law.

I.e. you have to find and pay your own lawyers. See Stardock's numerous lawsuits for an idea of how "your lone ass vs flush corporate lawyers" tends to play out. Aka, they counter sue over some "you're trying to sabotage the company" BS and hold it up in court until you run out of money, they settle for no money and you have to apologize. They've done it at least once over sexual harassment, and have an ongoing suit that will likely let them steal the Star Control rights from the creators, including, bizarrely, the thought that the creators of Star Control can't even call themselves the creators of Star Control, unless the actual creators of Star Control can find a couple millions of dollars to fight back.

That's how "legal recourse" goes in civil law. Hell, talking to Kotaku actually helps future "legal recourse" attempts, because look at everybody else corroborating. Establishes a pattern of behavior.

Commanderfantasy:
Good point. So does Riot not have an HR? Are these women just content to sit and be sad? When they are told these comments, get dirty images in their inbox, all of these things that could very well be reported to an HR of some kind....why did that not happen? Again employees are protected from reporting issues. Especially HR reports that can be given anonymously, so why did they never do that? Could it be that these articles are bullshit?

The way these things are described, they are crimes. Yet nobody reports them...hmm....curious. I don't care how afraid for a job someone is, you'd still report crimes. Or at least someone who isn't as afraid would report them. I mean somebody there had to have the guts to report this? Yet nobody stepped up? Instead they chose to write blogs, or contribute to random kotaku articles?

It all just smells like bogus.

HR is not there for the employees. It's to make sure that the company is legally protected. For example, "nobody reports them" could just mean that the "victims" said something and were ignored. If there is this bro culture, its highly likely that anything that the CEO down is seen as totally acceptable by HR. The last thing a person should do is report things to HR. You will probably be fired soon after.

As to why this doesn't go to the police. IDk. Maybe the "victims" didn't think this need to go to the police but they thought it needed pointing out. Just because its legally okay, doesn't mean that its not trash. Maybe it would be classed as a civil dispute, not criminal. I don't know the laws there.

But yes. Any article could be faked. As with anything, both sides are probably telling the truth and lying at the same time

A few updates, first riot has responded with a plan
https://twitter.com/riotgames/status/1028125335257153536?s=21

To listen, we have to be quiet. You haven?t heard from us, because we?re focused on listening and supporting internally. In the weeks and months ahead, we?ll share the immediate and long-term actions we?re taking to enact real change for women at Riot.

also one of the main developers has commented on the issue https://np.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/96922n/ghostcrawler_is_moving_off_of_league_of_legends/e3z0yxa/?context=10000

One of the challenges of situations like this is that plenty of people have been fired for things that were described in the article. I have personally fired people for it (and I did it at Blizzard too). But you don't often go around communicating that fact, often times because you are trying to protect the victim of the harassment.

That is definitely not to say we have addressed every problem mentioned in the article.

this actually seems like pretty good confirmation that the allegations are somewhat true

Kerg3927:
Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

When a company is 80% male, there's probably going to be a bro culture... duh, it's because there are a bunch of bros there.

By far the majority of 80% male companies ever develop a "bro culture".

This kind of behavior is not inherent too maleness. And most men don't identify themself as "bros" and don't condone such a shit.

Sure for the same reason a women at such a place might keep quite to avoid trouble, a man could do the same but it is not something that typically comes into existence whenever men get together.

Yes, some people would claim that this is "toxic masculinity". But i disagree on the ground that this is not actually masculinity at all.

The corporate culture already sounds creepy as fuck. "Loving what you do is mandatory..."? As opposed to being good at your job...? Who actually believes that and what ridiculous standards must you have or so out of touch with actual work do you have to be to not recognize work is still work?

I'm sure doctors, nurses and surgeons might 'love' their job of helping people, but I can't imagine they spend 4 hours trying to save a car crash trauma patient, ultimately failing to do so, and hop, skip and jump to the deceased's family and say; "Sorry 'bout that, tried our best! I just love my job."

I don't go to my accountant and quiz them about just how much fun they will have working on my taxes ... and I'll just monitor their ventral tegmental activity to determine that's actually the case. My eye is on you accountant... shut up and keep still, fMRI in process. Just think about my taxes while lying there. Then we'll see if you're worthy of being my accountant.

No, I go to my accountant because he's good. Just like I went to one particular GP in the past (he retired unfortunately) because he's one of the few GPs I have ever met with the gall to call me an idiot to my face, and one of the few doctors to identify that my "pleurisy" wasn't an infection, it was purely environmental because I was lazy when adjusting my webbing during an expedition on one of my explorations of the Great Dividing Range.

He came up with the idea when he noticed my bag laden with psych textbooks and other bric-a-brac that perhaps I wasn't practicing the best load-bearing practices.

He mustn't have cared enough for the job to keep practicing medicine past his 70s. And that's fair enough ... because no one should (have to) be working well into their 70s. But caring about the job is secondary to being a professional.

Work is work ... when videogame companies have the gall to complain about things like how $60 isn't enough, and they need microtransactions, with exorbitant freemium mechanics, do they take into account the 'meritocracy' of employees sending dick pics to their co-workers?

Usually management tries to trim the fat where it is. If anything, it's what the shareholders of the parent company would want to see.

Kerg3927:

When a company is 80% male, there's probably going to be a bro culture... duh, it's because there are a bunch of bros there.

A "bro culture" is fine as long as it doesn't harm those that aren't part of that culture.

Every large company in existence has disgruntled ex-employees who feel like they were undervalued and treated unfairly.

Yes, and?

In this case it appears those feelings are founded.

And with 100 million players and $1.6 billion in revenue... how can anyone seriously be critical of their hiring and promotion practices? Based on results, I'd say they have a pretty damn good business model, one that should probably be studied and emulated.

Taking that train of thought to the end station, any amoral behaviour within a company can be excused as long as it turns a profit.

Also, never thought I'd see someone else being pro F2P on this site, but there you go.

Dreiko:

I fully support their idea of questioning people's gamer cred, despite the fact that they seem to like games like shooters more than Rpgs which would disqualify me from their idea of a gamer. It's fully their right to hire people who fit in with their ideal image of the gamer because that's how they'll best make the games they want to make.

I find that part absolutely asinine.

The games being cited don't even make sense - apparently playing an FPS (CoD) will make someone better developing for a MOBA (LoL). I mean, if Riot wants to make an FPS with Miss Fortune, Jinx, or someone else, sure, but I'm not counting on that actually happening.

In the realm of personal experience, again, work in libraries. A common interview question is "why do you want to work here?" No-one ever quizzed me on what types of books I like to read.

Basically, it reeks of elitism - the whole "real gamer" nonsense that pops up every so often.

That a lot of women fail to qualify is only a side-effect of the fact that almost everyone who isn't a fan of call of duty or strategy pc games would fail to qualify.

CoD is dominated by males.

Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but again, what is Riot's raison de'etre that "you need to play CoD to work on an ARTS?"

Hawki:

Kerg3927:

When a company is 80% male, there's probably going to be a bro culture... duh, it's because there are a bunch of bros there.

A "bro culture" is fine as long as it doesn't harm those that aren't part of that culture.

Every large company in existence has disgruntled ex-employees who feel like they were undervalued and treated unfairly.

Yes, and?

In this case it appears those feelings are founded.

And with 100 million players and $1.6 billion in revenue... how can anyone seriously be critical of their hiring and promotion practices? Based on results, I'd say they have a pretty damn good business model, one that should probably be studied and emulated.

Taking that train of thought to the end station, any amoral behaviour within a company can be excused as long as it turns a profit.

Also, never thought I'd see someone else being pro F2P on this site, but there you go.

Dreiko:

I fully support their idea of questioning people's gamer cred, despite the fact that they seem to like games like shooters more than Rpgs which would disqualify me from their idea of a gamer. It's fully their right to hire people who fit in with their ideal image of the gamer because that's how they'll best make the games they want to make.

I find that part absolutely asinine.

The games being cited don't even make sense - apparently playing an FPS (CoD) will make someone better developing for a MOBA (LoL). I mean, if Riot wants to make an FPS with Miss Fortune, Jinx, or someone else, sure, but I'm not counting on that actually happening.

In the realm of personal experience, again, work in libraries. A common interview question is "why do you want to work here?" No-one ever quizzed me on what types of books I like to read.

Basically, it reeks of elitism - the whole "real gamer" nonsense that pops up every so often.

That a lot of women fail to qualify is only a side-effect of the fact that almost everyone who isn't a fan of call of duty or strategy pc games would fail to qualify.

CoD is dominated by males.

Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but again, what is Riot's raison de'etre that "you need to play CoD to work on an ARTS?"

I think the focus with CoD is mainly that of a game which is primarily purchased to be played in a competitive, online, multiplayer setting. Since that's what LoL is like it makes sense that they'd want people who play games with a similar mentality.

I certainly don't find it elitist because despite them not considering me a gamer, I know I've won tons of money with anime fighting games and am good enough to win tournaments where money prizes are offered, so I don't need them to acknowledge me on top of that. I think the only people who mind if someone questions their being a gamer are ones insecure about not belonging, and anyone who is an actual gamer would just laugh it off due to its sheer absurdity. That's how I feel anyhow as a fan of jrpgs and someone who never plays shooters and never touched WoW and so on lol.

altnameJag:

Dreiko:
If such issues regarding sexual harassment did occur, legal recourse and not crying at kotaku is the way to go.

I fully support their idea of questioning people's gamer cred, despite the fact that they seem to like games like shooters more than Rpgs which would disqualify me from their idea of a gamer. It's fully their right to hire people who fit in with their ideal image of the gamer because that's how they'll best make the games they want to make.

That a lot of women fail to qualify is only a side-effect of the fact that almost everyone who isn't a fan of call of duty or strategy pc games would fail to qualify.

Uhh, legal recourse is in the hands of civil law and not criminal law.

I.e. you have to find and pay your own lawyers. See Stardock's numerous lawsuits for an idea of how "your lone ass vs flush corporate lawyers" tends to play out. Aka, they counter sue over some "you're trying to sabotage the company" BS and hold it up in court until you run out of money, they settle for no money and you have to apologize. They've done it at least once over sexual harassment, and have an ongoing suit that will likely let them steal the Star Control rights from the creators, including, bizarrely, the thought that the creators of Star Control can't even call themselves the creators of Star Control, unless the actual creators of Star Control can find a couple millions of dollars to fight back.

That's how "legal recourse" goes in civil law. Hell, talking to Kotaku actually helps future "legal recourse" attempts, because look at everybody else corroborating. Establishes a pattern of behavior.

I don't know how you can be so sure that whoever was suing them in the past was an actual victim and not someone trying to scam money out of them. It's certainly not impossible that a disgruntled employee may use deception to get back at a company they have a beef with.

Either way, Kotaku is not the law, this is just getting public opinion to support someone who isn't willing to go through the usual procedure we already have in place for dealing with sexual harassment. If they won't do that they don't deserve the usual sympathy for people who go through it either.

Dreiko:

I think the focus with CoD is mainly that of a game which is primarily purchased to be played in a competitive, online, multiplayer setting. Since that's what LoL is like it makes sense that they'd want people who play games with a similar mentality.

I certainly don't find it elitist because despite them not considering me a gamer, I know I've won tons of money with anime fighting games and am good enough to win tournaments where money prizes are offered, so I don't need them to acknowledge me on top of that. I think the only people who mind if someone questions their being a gamer are ones insecure about not belonging, and anyone who is an actual gamer would just laugh it off due to its sheer absurdity. That's how I feel anyhow as a fan of jrpgs and someone who never plays shooters and never touched WoW and so on lol.

I sort of see what you are saying and I can agree that we (as people who play games as a collective whole) need to loosen up a bit about who's a gamer and who isn't, but:

Riots approach isn't just about asking people sort-of provocative questions about what games they play and whether they are dedicated enough to those games to get the Gamer Seal of Approval. Their approach is about dismissing viable job candidates, not because the candidates lack experience in their field of work, but because of what games they play and how much they play those games. That's what makes it all so fucked up, that getting hired to Riot is ultimately not down to whether you are a good programmer, artist or customer service rep, it is down to whether you play the right games in the right way in your free time.

Imagine the uproar if a company that makes paper towels and wet wipes would only hire people who carry around a set of either in their pocket/purse because "they understand the customer experience". Shit, imagine a man not getting a job at a lingerie company (any position) because "he doesn't wear lingerie and doesn't get our customers". It is tangentially related to the job at hand, but it has no direct impact on whether any given candidate will be good at the job. Riots hiring practices indirectly discriminates women (just as my imaginary lingerie-clause discriminates men), by taking the road of demanding that candidates engage in a typically male-oriented activity in their free time.

Even if it didn't so obviously discriminate, it would still be a stupid clause, based solely on the simple fact that it removes potentially outstanding candidates based on a metric that doesn't satisfactorily judge work performance. This is indicative of the problem of small companies (gaming or no) that grow too fast. Riot went from a college dorm start-up to the company behind one of the top 5 online games in less then five years, its founders (current chairmen of the board) went from business students to chairing the board of one of the biggest game studios in the world in that same time. They have no experience with leadership on that level, or efficient hiring practices or any of that important stuff and in their desire to create a "perfect company", they obviously made some serious missteps that could have been avoided had they had more time to gain experience before being thrust into upper management positions in a massive, international company. I doubt this entire thing reflects any sort of malicious behavior on the part of Riots upper management, just a naive failure to understand the importance of cultivating respectful office culture, because the idea that "everyone can be best buds and do what they love" sounds much more appealing.

And apparently Riot doesn't have an HR department.
Putting aside the "SJW" stuff, nobody wants to work in an uncomfortable, toxic work environment and BS like that just creates just such an environment. When forced to work in such an environment will lower productivity.
Then of course there's the fact that everyone has the right to be treated with respect and dignity (unless they're an asshole) whether they're male, female, or whatever.

Kerg3927:
Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

The Rogue Wolf:

Kerg3927:
Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

I've got to remember that one.

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