Are we really expecting cyberpunk to be better than Deus Ex?

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Phoenixmgs:

I sorta agree and disagree that games don't age. I feel the first 3rd-person shooters like Syphon Filter (relying on lock-on) have aged horribly but that might just be due to that design being bad even then. Whereas a game like Metal Gear Solid holds up because it wasn't trying to be a shooter then and only then evolved into having "shooter" controls when we had figured them out. Or like random battles in JRPGs as I always hated that even as a kid playing on the SNES. Does something that is the best it could be at that given time make it good?

It varies, but if we erase graphics and such out, some old titles will even actively outshine modern titles. Take the graphical limits out of consideration, and Unreal Tournament and Perfect Dark will basically bury most shooters in terms of content amount and variety (while sacrificing jumping in PD's case, granted, not that jumping is a big thing in a lot of current shooters).

The thing with stealth games though, is that a ton of its reliant on AI and fidelity (of various sorts). The first is only just starting to see some real advancements nowadays, and the second is still hit and miss at the best of times. You can make a perfectly functional stealth game with Pac-man hiding from a bunch of arrows (to denote visual line), but its not going to win any stellar acclaims like it might have back in the early Wolfenstein (the original original one) days.

And RPGs, which is the other half of Deus Ex (and Cyberpunk I'm assuming) will simply benefit on a raw scale of having more and more options available, and better levels of detail (I don't mean "stubble on Geralt's chin" detail though, but actual unique environments and characters and so on.)

I'm going to say yes, easily. I mean the story might not be as good, but the gameplay will defiantly be better. The original Deus Ex is jank as fuck and the only way you don't think so is if you have your nostalgia goggles on.

Worgen:
I'm going to say yes, easily. I mean the story might not be as good, but the gameplay will defiantly be better. The original Deus Ex is jank as fuck and the only way you don't think so is if you have your nostalgia goggles on.

I played original Deus Ex in 2011 before the anticipation of Human revolution. ended up my fav game of all time. I was too young in 2000 to play game like Deus Ex 1.

You know I'm not defending B-Cell in any way shape or form (unlike him, I actually was around to play the original early FPS's he praises so much when they were fresh), but I have to tell you, as someone who loves the actual Cyberpunk 20XX tabletop setting with all my heart and soul, I'm starting to lose enthusiasm for the project. Only three classes to play, and it doesn't seem to have the stylistic soul of the setting from what footage I've seen. It really does seem like Human Rev with Cyberpunk 20XX sauce to flavor, and while that's still worth a try, I'm not going to sing it's praises from the mountaintop.

Smithnikov:
as someone who loves the actual Cyberpunk 20XX tabletop setting with all my heart and soul, I'm starting to lose enthusiasm for the project. Only three classes to play, and it doesn't seem to have the stylistic soul of the setting from what footage I've seen.

With regard to classes, it's actually "classless" and freeform. They have "archetypes" of solo, netrunner and techie (which I expect translates approximately to combat, magic and gadgets respectively), but many of the skills and playstyles of other classes *are* in the game. The reason they did it this way is that not all of the original PnP classes translate so well into a video game. Rockerboys, corporates, cops, fixers and media just aren't that playable in a video game but more than that, they don't fit into this particular game, specifically as a player character.

NPCs are fixers (we meet Dexter DeShawn in the footage), and Stout is a Corporate agent. They are in the game, they just aren't playable and I don't think it will hurt our experience. V's story will involve (as gameplay showed) cybernetics, hacking, engineering, drones, weapons, stealth, melee combat, street cred, teammates and what not. It doesn't make much sense for V to be a cop, media or corporate in the story they're telling. It also means we can develop our characters differently and organically to suit our preference without the boundary of class restrictions.

As for style, Mike Pondsmith himself has said on film (I'm including a video below) that "it's like they took the world out of my brain and made it real" (words to that effect from another video i can't find atm, echoed below at 2m03s). In interviews, he said he's flown back and forth to Poland for meetings where they've asked him about little details on how things work or look or behave (1m30s). With all the above said, you should also note that this is 2077, *not* 2020. It's intentionally pushed forward chronologically so they can change the world a bit. It's still canon and thus in continuity with existing source materials but CDPR have a lot of leeway for creating an explicit world which looks as good by day as it will by night. The creator himself said the world is how he imagined it!

Look, it will inevitably suffer from the same issue as turning a book into a film (or reading the book after watching the film), the version in your imagination might not match the on-screen version. To my knowledge, this is the first video game adaptation of the property and it might be the only one you ever get. I don't get Human Revolution vibes at all (besides superficial visual cues), this is more Shadowrun than Deus Ex (excepting the obvious fantasy elements). Running the net, doing jobs for fixers, cyberdecks, teammates, it doesn't have DEs grand conspiracies, global politics and (I hope) doesn't focus so much on the cyberwear. In 2077, cyberwear just exists and it has a cost in humanity, but it is (hopefully) not the driving force of the entire story (neuropozyne in HR, racism in MD). Also, V is more "punk" and gutter-rat than "evolutionary wunderkind" Jensen. Lastly, I will say with 100% conviction right now 2077 will be an RPG, not an action-game-with-RPG-elements, which is what DE:HR was. HR had *some* elements of reactivity, but it wasn't an RPG where *we* could define our character.

I personally think that Human Revolution and Mankind Divided was a step up (or at least step sideways) from Deus Ex 1. The first level of the latter was a masterpiece but they never did that again. Every other level is, hands down, beaten by the later games. The openness of this first level makes it a terrible tutorial. It is way more fun to play on a second round, or it would have been better as a second level where you have developed more options.

I've been thinkinf about the open worldness of Cyberpunk. Deus Ex is very restrictive and xlosed off compared to an open world, which helps with tone and story. I think Cyberpunk's openness could wreck the feel Im looking for

Smithnikov:
You know I'm not defending B-Cell in any way shape or form (unlike him, I actually was around to play the original early FPS's he praises so much when they were fresh), but I have to tell you, as someone who loves the actual Cyberpunk 20XX tabletop setting with all my heart and soul, I'm starting to lose enthusiasm for the project. Only three classes to play, and it doesn't seem to have the stylistic soul of the setting from what footage I've seen. It really does seem like Human Rev with Cyberpunk 20XX sauce to flavor, and while that's still worth a try, I'm not going to sing it's praises from the mountaintop.

Yeah...I don't think Cyberpunk 2077 is ever going to live up to CP2020 the PnP RPG. That's not necessarily going to be CDPR's fault though. What I want is CP2020 the PnP in videogame form, but retaining the benefits of having a human GM and players, but that's never going to happen. I dunno, sometimes you have to settle for what you can get, but that fact that it isn't quite what you want is always going to be there.

I watched the gameplay trailer in the end though. Nice to see them mentioning The Afterlife. Wonder if any of the regulars will still be there, 60 years later...

Well this is disheartening:
https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/1005958197654351872

William Gibson, the "Neuromancer" author most accept as the "granddaddy" of cyberpunk (how Tolkien was to fantasy), sounds underwhelmed for CP2077 :-(

PS. Is there a way to embed a tweet on these forums the way there is for YT videos? I've seen it done on other sites, can't remember if it's been done on here.

PPS. For what it's worth, I think the above tweet related to the trailer, not the gameplay released since.

Okay. So we know next to nothing about this game yet, what exactly are we discussing here? Besides, you might believe that Deus Ex is the best game ever, but that is hardly an objective opinion. Just yours.

I already think that Witcher 3 is a better game than Deus Ex. Why wouldn't the same people be able to make a game in the same genre as Deus Ex that surpasses it?

Davroth:
Okay. So we know next to nothing about this game yet, what exactly are we discussing here? Besides, you might believe that Deus Ex is the best game ever, but that is hardly an objective opinion. Just yours.

I already think that Witcher 3 is a better game than Deus Ex. Why wouldn't the same people be able to make a game in the same genre as Deus Ex that surpasses it?

You might think Witcher 3 is better than Deus Ex but that is hardly an objective opinion. There's no such thing as an objective opinion (with regards to subjective material). What objective facts can prove one game is better than the other?

Davroth:
Okay. So we know next to nothing about this game yet, what exactly are we discussing here?

Next to nothing? We've had an in engine trailer, 48 minutes of gameplay, we have the 2020 ruleset, interviews with the creator and devs and more. If you still "know next to nothing", then you haven't been paying attention.

KingsGambit:
Well this is disheartening:
https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/1005958197654351872

William Gibson, the "Neuromancer" author most accept as the "granddaddy" of cyberpunk (how Tolkien was to fantasy), sounds underwhelmed for CP2077 :-(

His opinion. Just FYI, this tweet is kinda old, and was a reaction to the first trailer.

Besides, didn't Gibson proclaim cyberpunk "dead" as a genre, some time ago?

Phoenixmgs:
You might think Witcher 3 is better than Deus Ex but that is hardly an objective opinion. There's no such thing as an objective opinion (with regards to subjective material). What objective facts can prove one game is better than the other?

Yeah, that's why I said that's what I think, aka an opinion. All opinions are subjective. What are you trying to pin on me here?

MrCalavera:

KingsGambit:
Well this is disheartening:
https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/1005958197654351872

William Gibson, the "Neuromancer" author most accept as the "granddaddy" of cyberpunk (how Tolkien was to fantasy), sounds underwhelmed for CP2077 :-(

His opinion. Just FYI, this tweet is kinda old, and was a reaction to the first trailer.

Besides, didn't Gibson proclaim cyberpunk "dead" as a genre, some time ago?

I did note the timing of the tweet, noticed shortly after but you are quite right. I realise it's just a glib throwaway post but still. It kinda makes me wonder what Tolkein would say if he saw Shadows of War and lootcrates o.o I think that's an interesting idea for another thread, playing in other peoples' worlds. I realise I've analogised him with Tolkein twice, but I mean it only insofar as the influence and the subgenres that followed their seminal works, not equating literary prowess.

I couldn't say about those other comments, I didn't hear about that. I like the Sprawl books, tho was disappointed that the main cast weren't in the "sequels", except the girl with the sunglasses (and then it wasn't a major role really). The thing is his work did put the spark to tinder. I'm not going to completely credit him; without demeaning Gibson's work in any way, I would say Philip K Dick was also a huge influence on what came later. Minority Report, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep (Blade Runner) and Let Us Remember That For You Wholesale (Total Recall) also really did a great job of showing worlds with technology that that can harm and oppress as much as it can help and liberate.

I'm not sad, honest, I'm still preordering CP2077 in 2019 or whenever it's announced. Just a little disappointed that an author I do like, but in particular the one mostly responsible for the whole subgenre, wasn't so impressed. In fairness, i can kinda see how the trailer could leave someone with that impression; there are other gamers in this thread saying similar. I think for those of us looking closer, we can see what the game and role-playing aspects will be beneath the retro-future neon aesthetic.

Also, I love your name.

I don't know why anyone thinks it'll be good at all. Like I can understand liking what you've seen, but this is the AAA industry. Anyone remember Colonial Marines, and how all the vertical slice game-play footage was faked, and the release code was basically an incomplete beta code?
Just saying, lower your expectations. There is no reason to believe Project RED hasn't completely mucked this up. Also remember the last series they did, Witcher, took 3 games to get to playable. I'm expecting a mix of Colonial Marines marketing lies and Witcher 1 birthing pains and honest design mistakes.

Will it be better than Deus Ex?

Yes? I mean, I loved the original game back in the 90's but yes I think Cyberpunk will be way better in much the same way that cars were better 25-years after the Model-T.

Also some games age well, particularly on the SNES, but some age poorly. Like a fine wine left under the radiator. A really buggy, pixelated and badly-voice-acted radiator.

KingsGambit:
-

I do hope you're right. I really do.

And Pondsmith giving a thumb's up to it, assuming it's not just for paid PR, is a green flag for me.

Davroth:

Phoenixmgs:
You might think Witcher 3 is better than Deus Ex but that is hardly an objective opinion. There's no such thing as an objective opinion (with regards to subjective material). What objective facts can prove one game is better than the other?

Yeah, that's why I said that's what I think, aka an opinion. All opinions are subjective. What are you trying to pin on me here?

It just seemed weird calling someone's opinion not objective enough basically. There's plenty of reasons to think CDPR won't be able to outdo Deus Ex as I'll get into with a reply just below this.

Silentpony:
I don't know why anyone thinks it'll be good at all. Like I can understand liking what you've seen, but this is the AAA industry. Anyone remember Colonial Marines, and how all the vertical slice game-play footage was faked, and the release code was basically an incomplete beta code?
Just saying, lower your expectations. There is no reason to believe Project RED hasn't completely mucked this up. Also remember the last series they did, Witcher, took 3 games to get to playable. I'm expecting a mix of Colonial Marines marketing lies and Witcher 1 birthing pains and honest design mistakes.

It's seems like from watching the gameplay demo that CDPR has put together better shooting than they did with melee combat with Witcher 3, though 1st-person shooting is probably easier to make good over melee combat. Colonial Marines was definitely an outlier in deception plus I recall hearing that the people that saw the demo closed doors had a person playing it live. So I believe what's been shown is representative. However, what is shown isn't by any means mind-blowing, it basically looked like early tutorial-esque missions showing the player 'look you can shoot through walls' and 'look there's alternate paths through the level' with a super convenient route to flank an enemy. Where Cyberpunk really succeeds or fails we won't really see because trying to basically make an immersive sim RPG is all about level design, creating organic open-ended gameplay with well-designed abilities/skills/powers, and how much player choice actually impacts the game world. And CDPR has no track record of doing that. Witcher-esque open world design greatly differs from say Deus Ex or Dishonored type level design. I don't think any dev has been able to make a quality immersive sim game that didn't have people on the team that actually worked on the OG Deus Ex, Thief, System Shock, etc. Maybe CDPR hired on some experts in that type of game design like Guerrilla Games did with hiring people for Horizon in areas they didn't have experience in. Regardless of who the dev is, I won't believe they can do something until they've done before and done it well. Plus, I felt none of the gameplay in Witcher 3 was good so I really don't expect anything but good writing from Cyberpunk at this point and CDPR will have to prove me wrong with the finished product.

Phoenixmgs:

Davroth:

Phoenixmgs:
You might think Witcher 3 is better than Deus Ex but that is hardly an objective opinion. There's no such thing as an objective opinion (with regards to subjective material). What objective facts can prove one game is better than the other?

Yeah, that's why I said that's what I think, aka an opinion. All opinions are subjective. What are you trying to pin on me here?

It just seemed weird calling someone's opinion not objective enough basically. There's plenty of reasons to think CDPR won't be able to outdo Deus Ex as I'll get into with a reply just below this.

Silentpony:
I don't know why anyone thinks it'll be good at all. Like I can understand liking what you've seen, but this is the AAA industry. Anyone remember Colonial Marines, and how all the vertical slice game-play footage was faked, and the release code was basically an incomplete beta code?
Just saying, lower your expectations. There is no reason to believe Project RED hasn't completely mucked this up. Also remember the last series they did, Witcher, took 3 games to get to playable. I'm expecting a mix of Colonial Marines marketing lies and Witcher 1 birthing pains and honest design mistakes.

It's seems like from watching the gameplay demo that CDPR has put together better shooting than they did with melee combat with Witcher 3, though 1st-person shooting is probably easier to make good over melee combat. Colonial Marines was definitely an outlier in deception plus I recall hearing that the people that saw the demo closed doors had a person playing it live. So I believe what's been show is representative. However, what is shown isn't by any means mind-blowing, it basically looked like early tutorial-esque missions showing the player 'look you can shoot through walls' and 'look there's alternate paths through the level' with a super convenient route to flank an enemy. Where Cyberpunk really succeeds or fails we won't really see because trying to basically make an immersive sim RPG is all about level design, creating organic open-ended gameplay with well-designed abilities/skills/powers, and how much player choice actually impacts the game world. And CDPR has no track record of doing that. Witcher-esque open world design greatly differs from say Deus Ex or Dishonored type level design. I don't think any dev has been able to make a quality immersive sim game that didn't have people on the team that actually worked on the OG Deus Ex, Thief, System Shock, etc. Maybe CDPR hired on some experts in that type of game design like Guerrilla Games did with hiring people for Horizon in areas they didn't have experience in. Regardless of who the dev is, I won't believe they can do something until they've done before and done it well. Plus, I felt none of the gameplay in Witcher 3 was good so I really don't expect anything but good writing from Cyberpunk at this point and CDPR will have to prove me wrong with the finished product.

Didn't Laura K Dale praise the demo, but also stated she had seen similar footage before hand, but she wasn't playing it, someone else was?
Just saying, air on the side of caution. Devs are too used to lying, and customers too used to letting them get away with it. Its even money that Cyberpunk is either a Shadow of Mordor hit, or a Colonial Marines disaster.

Silentpony:
Didn't Laura K Dale praise the demo, but also stated she had seen similar footage before hand, but she wasn't playing it, someone else was?
Just saying, air on the side of caution. Devs are too used to lying, and customers too used to letting them get away with it. Its even money that Cyberpunk is either a Shadow of Mordor hit, or a Colonial Marines disaster.

I don't know who Laura K Dale is. I think I recall YongYea saying the closed door demo had someone playing it live. If someone is playing the game, then the game obviously exists in the capacity it was shown. Whereas I'm pretty sure Colonial Marines wasn't footage from the actual game IIRC. There's been very few instances of purposefully deceptive faked footage that I've taken pretty much any demo with like a half hour+ of unedited footage to be representative of the game and I haven't been screwed over by the final game being something noticeably different. Sure you have instances of like a Sean Murray or Peter Molyneux saying their game is going to allow the player to do all this stuff that you can't really do but there was never game footage showing off that stuff either. I never saw any footage of No Man's Sky of what you'd be doing outside of flying the ship and walking around so that's what I expected the game to be and that's what it was.

But yeah, you don't have to tell me to be cautious, I don't hype or anticipate games unless it's from a dev that I loved something they've already made and they're making a new similar type game that I feel they know how to make. CDPR has never made a immersive sim RPG before so I don't trust that they can make a good one. And the footage while looking like a good start doesn't show anything to prove that it will be a good immersive sim RPG. If they got someone like StealthGamerBR to play the game and show off creativity the game allows for like the creativity his Dishonored videos show, then that would go quite a ways to thinking CDPR may actually have pulled it off. Bethesda actually used StealthGamerBR to promote Dishonored: Death of the Outsider. I don't get why getting a really awesome gamer to basically do their own scripted run showing off your game isn't standard marketing at this point vs the overly slow and scripted demos (like Cyberpunk) or the expensive fancy CGI trailers.

Phoenixmgs:

It just seemed weird calling someone's opinion not objective enough basically. There's plenty of reasons to think CDPR won't be able to outdo Deus Ex as I'll get into with a reply just below this.

Oh, I get it. You never played Witcher 3 didn't you? Otherwise there's literally no way you could say that. You don't have a shred of evidence other than a work in progress video presentation, anyway. Why do you feel the need to crap on a game that wont be out for at least a few years based on an early peak? Your precious Deus Ex is old, and has aged poorly in many respects. And its sequels have been less than impressive.

Davroth:

Phoenixmgs:

It just seemed weird calling someone's opinion not objective enough basically. There's plenty of reasons to think CDPR won't be able to outdo Deus Ex as I'll get into with a reply just below this.

Oh, I get it. You never played Witcher 3 didn't you? Otherwise there's literally no way you could say that. You don't have a shred of evidence other than a work in progress video presentation, anyway. Why do you feel the need to crap on a game that wont be out for at least a few years based on an early peak? Your precious Deus Ex is old, and has aged poorly in many respects. And its sequels have been less than impressive.

There's plenty of reasons to be wary of Cyberpunk 2077 at this point. The most obvious is that CDPR only has 3 major games under their belt, all from the same series, and that apart from those three games they've only made two more games, one being a CCG and the other an incredibly short-lived MOBA for mobile.

Another reason is that Cyberpunk 2077 was announced waaaaay back in May 2012 with the first teaser trailer coming out in January 2013. That's at least 6,5 years of development time put into the game at this point, which puts Cyberpunk 2077 in the same league as S.T.A.L.K.E.R (announced 2001, released 2007), Prey (the original) and Duke Nuke'em Forever in terms of protracted development periods. The fact that after 6,5 years all CDPR has to show is a pre-alpha work-in-progress vertical slice should worry all of us, because that's a clear indication that Cyberpunk is having a troubled development.

On top of that we should remember that considering game mechanics the Witcher 3 wasn't a smash hit, with a janky slightly-above-average combat system, a rather uninspired leveling system (which was still the best of the trilogy) and an open world that was quite sparse in terms of player interaction. The Witcher 3 managed to cover all that by the strength of its open world ambiance, great moment to moment writing and ability to immerse the player in the world and story. In a traditional 3rd person RPG you can get away with these sins, but a FPS is much more susceptible to faltering if its core mechanics aren't absolutely rock solid, especially if it comes out in the triple-A bracket.

That's not to say that CDPR can't pull it off, but their current showing shouldn't be confidence inspiring for anyone. They've shown a clearly doctored trailer of footage they themselves admit won't represent the final product after maintaining radio silence for 5,5 years. At this point Cyberpunk should be seen as a promising pitch, without anything to back it up and several hurdles that have to be cleared before CDPR can deliver on said pitch.

The OP's question irks me.

Are we really expecting cyberpunk to be better than Deus Ex?

I mean, why shouldn't we expect newer games to be better than older ones?

Deus Ex was a phenomenal game and I like it a lot, but it's not without its flaws. There's many things about it that can be improved upon, and many things that already have improved. It's not some insurmountable and untouchable thing, there to be put on a pedestal to be venerated, unchallenged for all time. Whether or not Cyberpunk 2077 will surpass Deus Ex is still in the air. Doesn't mean it can't be done. Or that it shouldn't even be tried.

And if CDproject succeeds? Good. All the better.

Davroth:

Phoenixmgs:

It just seemed weird calling someone's opinion not objective enough basically. There's plenty of reasons to think CDPR won't be able to outdo Deus Ex as I'll get into with a reply just below this.

Oh, I get it. You never played Witcher 3 didn't you? Otherwise there's literally no way you could say that. You don't have a shred of evidence other than a work in progress video presentation, anyway. Why do you feel the need to crap on a game that wont be out for at least a few years based on an early peak? Your precious Deus Ex is old, and has aged poorly in many respects. And its sequels have been less than impressive.

I played Witcher 3 and rated it 4/10 because the actual PLAYING of the game was never good IMO. I found the combat poor and even character movement (running about town) was poor. CDPR literally patched in better movement after release. Combat was some mishmash of Arkham and Souls combat that just didn't work. CDPR showed they ain't good with designing powers either as both quen and axii totally make combat joke easy. Plus, combat was designed for humanoid encounters instead of monster fights thus making what should be the highlight of the game (monster fights) really bad, I came to play a monster hunter (AKA witcher) not some medieval Batman mainly killing thugs and drowners. Even quest design was the same thing over and over again; go to Point_A, follow trail with detective vision witcher senses to Point_B and kill what's there. What made the quests memorable was the writing heavily window dressing the bog standard underlying design. So, that's why I have little faith in CDPR making an immersive sim RPG because they haven't shown any of the design skills required to make such a game. Now if Arkane Studios were making Cyberpunk, I'd be questioning their writing ability, but at least they could do the gameplay and level design.

Chimpzy:
The OP's question irks me.

Are we really expecting cyberpunk to be better than Deus Ex?

I mean, why shouldn't we expect newer games to be better than older ones?

Perhaps because -oh I dunno- in the 18 years since it's release nothing has delivered an overall package that has topped it, including its own sequels?

Perhaps because games made today are made with the shareholders' interests first and foremost, rather than the customers and designer's vision like in the 90s/early 00s?

Perhaps because in general (I know CDPR are an exception to this) modern games are released half baked and fixed never?

Perhaps because the very nature of a Deus Ex style game is incredibly difficult to construct, and developers are more limited than ever in what can and can't be portrayed?

Honestly there are loads of reasons why we generally expect modern releases to pale in comparison to their older, more feature rich ancestors. Star Wars Battlefront, Battlefield V, Serious Sam, Tomb Raider, etc etc.

I certainly hope Cyberpunk can live up to or surpass Deus Ex. But make no mistake, the onus is on Cyberpunk to break the mold of all the other failed attempts at meeting that bar, not on Deus Ex to simply be untouchable or otherwise.

Squilookle:
Perhaps because -oh I dunno- in the 18 years since it's release nothing has delivered an overall package that has topped it, including its own sequels?

Perhaps because games made today are made with the shareholders' interests first and foremost, rather than the customers and designer's vision like in the 90s/early 00s?

Perhaps because in general (I know CDPR are an exception to this) modern games are released half baked and fixed never?

Perhaps because the very nature of a Deus Ex style game is incredibly difficult to construct, and developers are more limited than ever in what can and can't be portrayed?

Honestly there are loads of reasons why we generally expect modern releases to pale in comparison to their older, more feature rich ancestors. Star Wars Battlefront, Battlefield V, Serious Sam, Tomb Raider, etc etc.

I certainly hope Cyberpunk can live up to or surpass Deus Ex. But make no mistake, the onus is on Cyberpunk to break the mold of all the other failed attempts at meeting that bar, not on Deus Ex to simply be untouchable or otherwise.

I know that and I for the most part agree. It's just that there is something annoying about how the OPs question is phrased. As if the idea that something can surpass Deus Ex is silly. It's too defeatist for my tastes. Fuck yes, we should be expecting for games to get better.

Chimpzy:

Squilookle:
Perhaps because -oh I dunno- in the 18 years since it's release nothing has delivered an overall package that has topped it, including its own sequels?

Perhaps because games made today are made with the shareholders' interests first and foremost, rather than the customers and designer's vision like in the 90s/early 00s?

Perhaps because in general (I know CDPR are an exception to this) modern games are released half baked and fixed never?

Perhaps because the very nature of a Deus Ex style game is incredibly difficult to construct, and developers are more limited than ever in what can and can't be portrayed?

Honestly there are loads of reasons why we generally expect modern releases to pale in comparison to their older, more feature rich ancestors. Star Wars Battlefront, Battlefield V, Serious Sam, Tomb Raider, etc etc.

I certainly hope Cyberpunk can live up to or surpass Deus Ex. But make no mistake, the onus is on Cyberpunk to break the mold of all the other failed attempts at meeting that bar, not on Deus Ex to simply be untouchable or otherwise.

I know that and I for the most part agree. It's just that there is something annoying about how the OPs question is phrased. As if the idea that something can surpass Deus Ex is silly. It's too defeatist for my tastes. Fuck yes, we should be expecting for games to get better.

Oh that's just B-Cell. He always phrases his beliefs as statements barely disguised as questions. It's kind of like his thing.

B-Cell, why do you always ask us to predict the future? No-one knows if it will be better/same/worse than Deus Ex. We'll find out when it releases. All we can know for sure is that it will definitely look and sound better than Deus Ex.

Phoenixmgs:
-snip-

Well, in that case, maybe try different games, because this one is not for you. Because plenty of people love Witcher 3, and all the other Witcher games, and if Cyberpunk is anything like those games, it'll be a beloved classic, no matter what you think of it. Just because you dislike a game doesn't mean it's a bad game. Just because you dislike mechanics doesn't make them bad mechanics. You disliking playing the game doesn't mean others don't like playing the game.

Kinda funny that you'd bring Arkane Studio into this. I find Prey to be a barely passable FPS, and the level Design in Dishonored 2 made a really sharp turn for the worse compared to 1. I don't know why anyone would want them to take on game such as Cyberpunk, they have absolutely zero experience with it.

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