There are a truly astounding number of people on the internet that continue to complain about the so-called "casual" audience, and that Nintendo supposedly makes games for despite the fact that they also make games that aren't "casual" and are made mainly for the people that have been buying from them since the NES/SNES/N64 eras. Nintendo releases many games like Exitebots, Punch-Out, Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime, and a bunch of new titles this year at e3 and of the so-called "hardcore" all just bitch, bitch, bitch.
Even Yahtzee, who I respect somewhat despite making internet gaming culture as a whole twice as hostile, continues to appeal to the dumber people on the internet's gaming community by insisting that Nintendo has abandoned the "hardcore" audience. Now, I may tolerate the large number of inaccuracies and batant falsehoods in his reviews for the sake of humor, but making statements like these only assures that the ZP-fanboys will only repeat what he says constantly and continue to believe that the "casual" audience is a threat, no matter what conclusion logic would reach.
Nintendo didn't "abandon" its hardcore audience, and it still hasn't. If anything, a lot the hardcore audience abandoned Nintendo. With the N64, a lot of customers were lost to the Playstation, and Nintendo gained a reputation as sort of a "kiddy" game company. They tried to correct the mistakes they made with the N64 with the GCN, but most of you people flocked to the PS2 and Xbox as though Nintendo were now just an afterthought. After two generations of being in last place, is it any wonder they want to expand to new audiences? And furthermore, why are so many "hardcore" gamers upset about the direction Nintendo is taking when so many of them didn't care for Nintendo in the first place? And why to so many people think that the "hardcore" and "casual" audiences are mutually exclusive?
I would also like to point out that many of the people complaining are not considering any of the positive aspects of the "casual" audiece. Not to insult anyone, but for a reasonable period of time, anyone who considered gaming a serious hobby was usually dismissed as a "loser" with "no life." Now that the hobby is appealing to people beyond a "hardcore" niche, people might actually accept "hardcore" gamers for what we do in our spare time.
In the end, I believe that the whole "casual" dillema really only amounts to scapegoating. Ever since gaming was exposed to the internet there have been scapegoats for the problems with the entire industry. For the past two generations we had the people who only bought consoles to play EA Sports games, and today we have the so-called "casual audience" that will apparantly ruin gaming forever just like dozens of other things have in the past.
Nintendo doesn't make casual games their 3rd party does that for them besides I prefer to think of them as PUG's Pick up Games due to having easy controls and fairly simple gameplay like how games used to be and we all know how awesome the only proper Sonic games (2D Genesis) were, they are great games still but are nowhere near the scope of modern games.
jamesworkshop: Nintendo doesn't make casual games their 3rd party does that for them besides I prefer to think of them as PUG's Pick up Games due to having easy controls and fairly simple gameplay like how games used to be and we all know how awesome the only proper Sonic games (2D Genesis) were, they are great games still but are nowhere near the scope of modern games.
You must not be familiar with with the Wii X lineup
As for the games you said were evidence of them pandering to us, Most of them are overpriced cash-ins on nostalgia (Super Mario Bros. Wii being the biggest offender. $15 downloadable is the maximum reasonable price for that)
jamesworkshop: Nintendo doesn't make casual games their 3rd party does that for them besides I prefer to think of them as PUG's Pick up Games due to having easy controls and fairly simple gameplay like how games used to be and we all know how awesome the only proper Sonic games (2D Genesis) were, they are great games still but are nowhere near the scope of modern games.
As for the games you said were evidence of them pandering to us, Most of them are overpriced cash-ins on nostalgia (Super Mario Bros. Wii being the biggest offender. $15 downloadable is the maximum reasonable price for that)
As opposed to ultraviolent fanservice? Oh yes, I went there.
People also need to understand the kind of games Nintendo has usually made, and the amount they have usually made. A title from each franchise, a new IP, then they let the second and third parties get cracking. It's always been like this. Nintendo has abandoned no one, they have done the exact same thing they have done each generation, except now the Wii is a bit similar to the PS2 in the regard of shovelware (which the PS2 and PS1 had in droves, this is why the PS3 was able to exist as a 'hardcore gamers console' (that term being bullshit by the way) because they had more than enough revenue to splash out on tech).
Go back to each generation and see if Nintendo has ever made gore soaked violence fests (unless you want to count Mario crushing another living thing with his feet, no gore there though). Nintendo is hardly refusing violent or grittier games on their console, nay there are more than happy to see them on the Wii. Nintendo isn't abandoning anyone, the fact remains that they have released more titles for us than they have for the non-gaming audience. Count them.
Wii Fit.
Wii Fit Plus.
Wii Play.
Wii Sports.
......
And I said it before and I'll say it again. People who pretensiously voice themselves as hardcore gamers, aren't hardcore gamers. If they were hardcore they wouldn't have time to bitch, they would be too busy playing the latest game on the hardest setting.
Indigo_Dingo: As for the games you said were evidence of them pandering to us, Most of them are overpriced cash-ins on nostalgia (Super Mario Bros. Wii being the biggest offender. $15 downloadable is the maximum reasonable price for that)
The only game he listed that would even come remotely close to being a reasonable downloadable title is Punch-Out!, and even that's stretching it. Besides, the only way those games would be considered overpriced cash-ins would be if they were about as much fun as, say, most 3D Sonic games.
I'm guessing it's Nintendo's increasing dependence of series that have made people refer to their frequenters as "casual gamers". The most popular series such as Mario and Zelda are not what you'd call 'hardcorebait'.
Compare Super smash melee to brawl and tell me again that brawl is not casual. Though other than that I sense a disturbance in the flammability of this thread.
Yoshi_egg80: Compare Super smash melee to brawl and tell me again that brawl is not casual. Though other than that I sense a disturbance in the flammability of this thread.
It's not casual though. It's still a competitive title, and if you come at me slamming a single button frivolously, you're brown bread. A game where anyone can win at any time would be more true to what I think you are trying to say, and while brawl is a bit closer to that, it's still way off.
Booze Zombie: I don't hate Nintendo because they pander to the inbred masses, I hate Nintendo because they make boring games and gimmicky consoles.
Please don't assume you know what everyone coming to read your thread thinks on a subject or you'll be in for a surprise.
Gimmicky consoles? You mean the motion controller, the same motion controller that the PS360 are trying to emulate? I guess it's not gimmicky if they do it, right?
jamesworkshop: Nintendo doesn't make casual games their 3rd party does that for them besides I prefer to think of them as PUG's Pick up Games due to having easy controls and fairly simple gameplay like how games used to be and we all know how awesome the only proper Sonic games (2D Genesis) were, they are great games still but are nowhere near the scope of modern games.
As for the games you said were evidence of them pandering to us, Most of them are overpriced cash-ins on nostalgia (Super Mario Bros. Wii being the biggest offender. $15 downloadable is the maximum reasonable price for that)
As opposed to ultraviolent fanservice? Oh yes, I went there.
Amazingly, there is more to those games than that.
Nintendo has it's fate chosen all we can do is accept the fate and just buy games that are not made by them if they put the games on the market it is there fault
I stopped caring about Nintendo awhile ago. They can capture the casual market all they want. Sony, MS, and the PC will continue to bring the hardcore fans what they want. All is well.
I'd also like to point out that considering the fan's response to Brawl, which I got the distinct impression Nintendo and Hal poured their hearts and Souls into trying to make a game the fans would love, can you really blame Nintendo for appealing more to an audience that doesn't bitch as much!
itsmeyouidiot: There are a truly astounding number of people on the internet that continue to complain about the so-called "casual" audience, and that Nintendo supposedly makes games for despite the fact that they also make games that aren't "casual" and are made mainly for the people that have been buying from them since the NES/SNES/N64 eras. Nintendo releases many games like Exitebots, Punch-Out, Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime, and a bunch of new titles this year at e3 and of the so-called "hardcore" all just bitch, bitch, bitch.
Even Yahtzee, who I respect somewhat despite making internet gaming culture as a whole twice as hostile, continues to appeal to the dumber people on the internet's gaming community by insisting that Nintendo has abandoned the "hardcore" audience. Now, I may tolerate the large number of inaccuracies and batant falsehoods in his reviews for the sake of humor, but making statements like these only assures that the ZP-fanboys will only repeat what he says constantly and continue to believe that the "casual" audience is a threat, no matter what conclusion logic would reach.
Nintendo didn't "abandon" its hardcore audience, and it still hasn't. If anything, a lot the hardcore audience abandoned Nintendo. With the N64, a lot of customers were lost to the Playstation, and Nintendo gained a reputation as sort of a "kiddy" game company. They tried to correct the mistakes they made with the N64 with the GCN, but most of you people flocked to the PS2 and Xbox as though Nintendo were now just an afterthought. After two generations of being in last place, is it any wonder they want to expand to new audiences? And furthermore, why are so many "hardcore" gamers upset about the direction Nintendo is taking when so many of them didn't care for Nintendo in the first place? And why to so many people think that the "hardcore" and "casual" audiences are mutually exclusive?
I would also like to point out that many of the people complaining are not considering any of the positive aspects of the "casual" audiece. Not to insult anyone, but for a reasonable period of time, anyone who considered gaming a serious hobby was usually dismissed as a "loser" with "no life." Now that the hobby is appealing to people beyond a "hardcore" niche, people might actually accept "hardcore" gamers for what we do in our spare time.
In the end, I believe that the whole "casual" dillema really only amounts to scapegoating. Ever since gaming was exposed to the internet there have been scapegoats for the problems with the entire industry. For the past two generations we had the people who only bought consoles to play EA Sports games, and today we have the so-called "casual audience" that will apparantly ruin gaming forever just like dozens of other things have in the past.
ChromeAlchemist: Gimmicky consoles? You mean the motion controller, the same motion controller that the PS360 are trying to emulate? I guess it's not gimmicky if they do it, right?
It's still gimmicky. Having some stupid little sensor thingy that can barely pick up me moving a stupid white stick around annoyed me, so I chucked it away. The console, that is.
ChromeAlchemist: Gimmicky consoles? You mean the motion controller, the same motion controller that the PS360 are trying to emulate? I guess it's not gimmicky if they do it, right?
It's still gimmicky. Having some stupid little sensor thingy that can barely pick up me moving a stupid white stick around annoyed me, so I chucked it away. The console, that is.
You not liking it doesn't really make it a gimmick though, does it? It's an integral part of the console design and has solid games for it. A gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature. Motion controls (including this one) is changing the way certain games can be played.
Flailing my arms around like a Jackass (Natal) may not be appealing, but it's hardly a bloody gimmick.
And why to so many people think that the "hardcore" and "casual" audiences are mutually exclusive?
...Because they are. I don't want to play casual games, they don't offer much...
In guitaring terms... Hardcore games are like Jimmy Page...and casual games are like "the edge"...and "the edge" sucks at guitar. If "the edge" suddenly became the most popular guitarist in the world...I would be pissed off.
I'm not saying it's right to hate casual games because they are a dumbed down version of an art form you love...but I understand.
Apart from an overuse of quotation marks, not a bad post. Just because Nintendo released the full line of it's normal standbys off the bat, and then turned to garner a bit more cash doesn't mean they turned away from the core gamer, it just meant that they went to do what the wii was--a return of the ideas they had in the past, retrofitted so that the modern crowd would buy. But now they're looking back in the direction of the core gamer, and deciding that it's something worth looking back into. The PS3 costs your brand new newborn just to design for, and is rarely worth the cost, and that's the 'hardcore console'? Sounds more like hardcore just means costs more. But, if in all reality, it's a choice of casual or core gamers, then I'd rather watch the developments from the console that work well for both groups.
canadamus_prime: can you really blame Nintendo for appealing more to an audience that doesn't bitch as much!
Super Mario Galaxy is not now, nor has it ever been, a hardcore title.
What's the point in arguing about this? Obviously a lot of people disagree or there wouldn't be such a tremendous outcry from Wii owners about how they have a pitiful handful of decent games to play on their console, and rightfully so, because there's fuck-all for third party support on the Wii. All Wii owners can do is hope that Nintendo releases something to appease them, either that or sell their consoles and put the money towards buying a system with actual games for it. You're talking out of your ass, OP.
Yoshi_egg80: Compare Super smash melee to brawl and tell me again that brawl is not casual. Though other than that I sense a disturbance in the flammability of this thread.
It's not casual though. It's still a competitive title, and if you come at me slamming a single button frivolously, you're brown bread. A game where anyone can win at any time would be more true to what I think you are trying to say, and while brawl is a bit closer to that, it's still way off.
It's not hardcore though. Having competition as in multiplayer "automatically" makes it a non-casual game, you never tried those multi-player peggle games? This brown bread comment totally escapes me. They have said that they haven't forgotten the hardcore but they merely made a compromise between the hardcore and casual with Brawl. I'm not ranting my head off about this just merely pointing out though immature the people saying stuff about this casual gaming and their comments may be they do have a slight, albeit small...point to them and I'm just biding my time.
ChromeAlchemist: You not liking it doesn't really make it a gimmick though, does it? It's an integral part of the console design and has solid games for it. A gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature. Motion controls (including this one) is changing the way certain games can be played.
Flailing my arms around like a Jackass (Natal) may not be appealing, but it's hardly a bloody gimmick.
They built that whole system upon a gimmick, it's only got "solid games" because they're mastering the gimmick. I imagine if they let that headset thingy live on (and removed that pesky seizure part) some "solid games" could've been released for it.
My main issue with "casual games" is that, for the most part, they are unnecessarily dumbed down by companies who underestimate their consumers. It is entirely possible to create a fun, engaging and entertaining casual game (Plants Vs. Zombies) that doesnn't suffer from poor quality, shoddy design and empty gameplay (Carnival Games).
It's not hardcore though. Having competition as in multiplayer "automatically" makes it a non-casual game, you never tried those multi-player peggle games? This brown bread comment totally escapes me. They have said that they haven't forgotten the hardcore but they merely made a compromise between the hardcore and casual with Brawl. I'm not ranting my head off about this just merely pointing out though immature the people saying stuff about this casual gaming and their comments may be they do have a slight, albeit small...point to them and I'm just biding my time.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, and I do seem to echo myself a bit. The notion of hardcore that people are labelling games as, is bull. Also Peggle has multiplayer, but can you gain an edge in Peggle by knowing how many frames per second attacks are, how to chain throw, how to wavedash, attack priority, and more? I don't think you can. The games themselves are just games, unless they are actually titled as a 'casual' game, it all depends on how you play it.
And if I am wrong in this regard, what is a hardcore game, and what is a game?
ChromeAlchemist: You not liking it doesn't really make it a gimmick though, does it? It's an integral part of the console design and has solid games for it. A gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature. Motion controls (including this one) is changing the way certain games can be played.
Flailing my arms around like a Jackass (Natal) may not be appealing, but it's hardly a bloody gimmick.
They built that whole system upon a gimmick, it's only got "solid games" because they're mastering the gimmick. I imagine if they let that headset thingy live on (and removed that pesky seizure part) some "solid games" could've been released for it.
Nintendo builds on gimmicks.
Then you don't understand what a gimmick is. The Power glove was a gimmick. The Virtual boy was a gimmick. The Wii Remote and Natal and the PS3 motion controller, are not gimmicks. Nintendo does not build on gimmicks, they build on innovation, and that has been a fact for an awful long time.
Indigo_Dingo: Amazingly, there is more to those games than that.
And yet I can say the exact same thing about the games we are talking about.
In regards to most of them, no you can't. Compare the responses to Facebreaker.
All of those games got high scores and positive fan reaction. Facebreaker didn't. That is all.
Because all those games were using nostalgia. That is all.
That's what long running franchise titles do. Their two redeeming factors are quality and nostalgia. Those had both. Nostalgia isn't something you can really kill off in a franchise, it's always going to be there.
Indigo_Dingo: Amazingly, there is more to those games than that.
And yet I can say the exact same thing about the games we are talking about.
In regards to most of them, no you can't. Compare the responses to Facebreaker.
All of those games got high scores and positive fan reaction. Facebreaker didn't. That is all.
Because all those games were using nostalgia. That is all.
That's what long running franchise titles do. Their two redeeming factors are quality and nostalgia. Those had both. Nostalgia isn't something you can really kill off in a franchise, it's always going to be there.
They didn't have quality, the nostalgia give the illusion of quality.
There are a truly astounding number of people on the internet that continue to complain about the so-called "casual" audience, and that Nintendo supposedly makes games for despite the fact that they also make games that aren't "casual" and are made mainly for the people that have been buying from them since the NES/SNES/N64 eras. Nintendo releases many games like Exitebots, Punch-Out, Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime, and a bunch of new titles this year at e3 and of the so-called "hardcore" all just bitch, bitch, bitch.
Even Yahtzee, who I respect somewhat despite making internet gaming culture as a whole twice as hostile, continues to appeal to the dumber people on the internet's gaming community by insisting that Nintendo has abandoned the "hardcore" audience. Now, I may tolerate the large number of inaccuracies and batant falsehoods in his reviews for the sake of humor, but making statements like these only assures that the ZP-fanboys will only repeat what he says constantly and continue to believe that the "casual" audience is a threat, no matter what conclusion logic would reach.
Nintendo didn't "abandon" its hardcore audience, and it still hasn't. If anything, a lot the hardcore audience abandoned Nintendo. With the N64, a lot of customers were lost to the Playstation, and Nintendo gained a reputation as sort of a "kiddy" game company. They tried to correct the mistakes they made with the N64 with the GCN, but most of you people flocked to the PS2 and Xbox as though Nintendo were now just an afterthought. After two generations of being in last place, is it any wonder they want to expand to new audiences? And furthermore, why are so many "hardcore" gamers upset about the direction Nintendo is taking when so many of them didn't care for Nintendo in the first place? And why to so many people think that the "hardcore" and "casual" audiences are mutually exclusive?
I would also like to point out that many of the people complaining are not considering any of the positive aspects of the "casual" audiece. Not to insult anyone, but for a reasonable period of time, anyone who considered gaming a serious hobby was usually dismissed as a "loser" with "no life." Now that the hobby is appealing to people beyond a "hardcore" niche, people might actually accept "hardcore" gamers for what we do in our spare time.
In the end, I believe that the whole "casual" dillema really only amounts to scapegoating. Ever since gaming was exposed to the internet there have been scapegoats for the problems with the entire industry. For the past two generations we had the people who only bought consoles to play EA Sports games, and today we have the so-called "casual audience" that will apparantly ruin gaming forever just like dozens of other things have in the past.