Indigo_Dingo:

ChromeAlchemist:

Indigo_Dingo:

ChromeAlchemist:

Indigo_Dingo:

ChromeAlchemist:

Indigo_Dingo:
Amazingly, there is more to those games than that.

And yet I can say the exact same thing about the games we are talking about.

In regards to most of them, no you can't. Compare the responses to Facebreaker.

All of those games got high scores and positive fan reaction. Facebreaker didn't. That is all.

Because all those games were using nostalgia. That is all.

That's what long running franchise titles do. Their two redeeming factors are quality and nostalgia. Those had both. Nostalgia isn't something you can really kill off in a franchise, it's always going to be there.

They didn't have quality, the nostalgia give the illusion of quality.

Reviewers don't review games based on nostalgia, they review them based on quality. If they did, they wouldn't be reviewers, they'd be nostalgia critics.

EDIT: And also, if a game is bad, then it's labelled as such. No amount of nostalgia can save it from fans or critics.

Another reason some Wii games are considered good is because of its Nostalgia factor. Remove all Nostalgia in SSBB and you get NOTHING, not even a single character to use. Remove Link from his new games and you get a mediocre game. Remove Mario from his new, good games and you pretty much removed the fun in that particular game.

Nostalgia is a powerful weapon which Nintendo has skillfully mastered and abused.

As for casual games, keep em' piling to introduce video games to the new generation. Just don't abuse the hardcore gamers' nostalgia too much.

Mirroga:
Another reason some Wii games are considered good is because of its Nostalgia factor. Remove all Nostalgia in SSBB and you get NOTHING, not even a single character to use. Remove Link from his new games and you get a mediocre game. Remove Mario from his new, good games and you pretty much removed the fun in that particular game.

Nostalgia is a powerful weapon which Nintendo has skillfully mastered and abused.

As for casual games, keep em' piling to introduce video games to the new generation. Just don't abuse the hardcore gamers' nostalgia too much.

Of course. This is why people who have never played a Mario game universally despise Mario Galaxy.

...Oh wait.

Graustein:

PsychoJosh:
Super Mario Galaxy is not now, nor has it ever been, a hardcore title.

You make this statement as if it means anything.

I would argue that Super Mario Galaxy IS a hardcore title.
My understanding of the term "casual gaming" is that it is a game where there is little to no lasting objective, no real defined goal, and can be picked up and put down without much effort. It's target is people who want to have a mindless, fun experience for a short period of time, people who normally would not spend 4-8 hours sitting in front of their consoles trying to dominate a game.
Mario galaxy combined several fantastic levels of gameplay, required some skill, and a considerable time investment. It's difficulty scaled nicely, and if you didn't master it's mechanics in the earlier levels, you'd find it a good deal more challenging as you progress through the later areas.
I relate it to Ratchet and Clank. Just because it's cartoony, has platforming, and features anthropomorphic lead characters, doesn't mean it's not 'hardcore'. You don't just pick it up, play a round or two, then toss it aside for weeks or months without losing the ability to advance easily.

Tennis and Checkers are "casual games".
Super mario Galaxy and Zelda are "not".

i couldnt be arsed to read all the post on this thread its 4:30 am but incase anyone hasnt said it yet video games are big business and the nintendo wii has expanded the market hugely compared to what it was which is fantastic. I know it can feel embarasing to be a gamer when seeing a 3 year old pick up the latest my little pony game but it will all end up in our favor eventually hardcore gamers its like microsoft always MONEY WE NEED MORE MONEY anyway casual gamers often turn to hardcore gamers because video games are like drugs you start with weed then you look for a better buzz from cocaine filled infinity ward games mmmmmmmmmmmm anyway itl all work out in the end (apologies for my bad grammar)

I don't think people should love nor hate Nintendo. I had a NES, SNES and N64, and then I just stopped caring. I didn't like the games and there were too many peripherals to buy (some of them even necessary). So I moved on to being a PC exclusive gamer.

I never thought "I hate you, Nintendo! Death to Potatamoto!", I just went with something that was much more interesting to me.

They didn't betray me and I didn't betray them... neither of us owed loyalty to the other. It was just a provider-customer relationship, they made games and consoles I liked so I bought them, when their stuff no longer appealed to me, I moved on.

If they now make games with sucky graphics and very simple mechanics relying mostly on their wiimotes and nunchuks: good for them! I don't really care! :D

Laura.:
I don't think people should love nor hate Nintendo. I had a NES, SNES and N64, and then I just stopped caring. I didn't like the games and there were too many peripherals to buy (some of them even necessary). So I moved on to being a PC exclusive gamer.

I never thought "I hate you, Nintendo! Death to Potatamoto!", I just went with something that was much more interesting to me.

They didn't betray me and I didn't betray them... neither of us owed loyalty to the other. It was just a provider-customer relationship, they made games and consoles I liked so I bought them, when their stuff no longer appealed to me, I moved on.

If they now make games with sucky graphics and very simple mechanics relying mostly on their wiimotes and nunchuks: good for them! I don't really care! :D

Once again a woman has to be the voice of reason, lets get it together kids.

Mr. Fister:

itsmeyouidiot:
-Smart Post-

In other words, read this and keep your rabid adolescent elitism to yourself.

Yeah, I've read that before. I don't see how this contradicts my argument in any way though, as it seems to assert that rip-offs of Nintendo's "casual" games that are not well-made will fail, which means companies that produce shovelware will inevitably go belly-up.

EDIT: Some of you may have noticed that I use the terms "hardcore" and "casual" in quotes. That's because I really don't believe there really is a difference. Games are games, and they exist to be enjoyed regardless of their complexity. Are there "hardcore" films? "Hardcore" television shows? "Hardcore" songs? "Hardcore" plays? "Hardcore" and "casual" are made up entirely in our minds, as evidenced by the fact that the definition of "hardcore" seems to change almost every time it is used for the sake of complaint.

Indigo_Dingo:
-snip-

Show me one review for Punchout Wii that didn't mention the original Punchout.

An exception to the rule. Mainly because of it's similarities to the original and sequel. Mentioning the original game doesn't mean that it is projecting the illusion of originality.

Dumbest. Post. Evar.

I mean hurdur, of course we abandoned them. They suck ass.

itsmeyouidiot:

Mr. Fister:

itsmeyouidiot:
-Smart Post-

In other words, read this and keep your rabid adolescent elitism to yourself.

Yeah, I've read that before. I don't see how this contradicts my argument in any way though, as it seems to assert that rip-offs of Nintendo's "casual" games that are not well-made will fail, which means companies that produce shovelware will inevitably go belly-up.

EDIT: Some of you may have noticed that I use the terms "hardcore" and "casual" in quotes. That's because I really don't believe there really is a difference. Games are games, and they exist to be enjoyed regardless of their complexity. Are there "hardcore" films? "Hardcore" television shows? "Hardcore" songs? "Hardcore" plays? "Hardcore" and "casual" are made up entirely in our minds, as evidenced by the fact that the definition of "hardcore" seems to change almost every time it is used for the sake of complaint.

He is actually agreeing with you, not attempting to contradict your statements. And what you said, I agree with, and I put in a thread here. It's something I adamantly agree with, but people don't seem to understand.

In the same vein, people should stop bitching about Uwe Boll. Because after all, lower quality isn't actually a sign of crappy design or a lack of attention to detail, it's because you just aren't in the right mode. The movies weren't an affront to the eyes, your eyes were an affront to the movie.

Translation: Not complaining about casual games is like ordering a steak and instead quietly slurping up the glass of urine they plonk in front of you.

I think this sums it up quite nicely.

itsmeyouidiot:

EDIT: Some of you may have noticed that I use the terms "hardcore" and "casual" in quotes. That's because I really don't believe there really is a difference. Games are games, and they exist to be enjoyed regardless of their complexity. Are there "hardcore" films? "Hardcore" television shows? "Hardcore" songs? "Hardcore" plays? "Hardcore" and "casual" are made up entirely in our minds, as evidenced by the fact that the definition of "hardcore" seems to change almost every time it is used for the sake of complaint.

Exactly. People that complain about "casual games" are basically just a bunch of elitist nerds. It's akin to Warhammer players looking down on checkers or scrabble because they are too "easy".

Ultrajoe:

Translation: Not complaining about casual games is like ordering a steak and instead quietly slurping up the glass of urine they plonk in front of you.

Just out of curiosity, what makes a game "casual"? And can you list some game examples along with it? I have yet to hear a clear definition that isn't full of contradictions.

Ultrajoe:
In the same vein, people should stop bitching about Uwe Boll. Because after all, lower quality isn't actually a sign of crappy design or a lack of attention to detail, it's because you just aren't in the right mode. The movies weren't an affront to the eyes, your eyes were an affront to the movie.

Translation: Not complaining about casual games is like ordering a steak and instead quietly slurping up the glass of urine they plonk in front of you.

I think this sums it up quite nicely.

Wow, I would have expected someone who is basically an escapist celebrity would make an effort to not talk out of his arse.

For starters, whilst I know very little about the man or his movies, I get the impression he is hated because he makes crappy movies that are about pre-existing game franchises. If it was just a matter of quality I'd suggest everyone shut the hell up because clearly some people enjoy them. Instead its more about the fact that he uses other peoples ideas to base his shitty movies on, instead of coming up with his own.

And clearly you have something against casual games... Right, so nobody but you and those who think just like you, are allowed to find enjoyment in interactive media? Go fuck off to your own little fantasy world if that's your opinion. Not everyone wants to play these so called "hardcore" games, some people want Peggle, Bejeweled, Wiifit, minigame compilations and the like. The massive flaw in your steak simile is that you order steak and expect steak, if you order a casual game and expect something else you're an idiot.

And finally, you blame Nintendo for releasing casual games, seemingly ignoring the fact that despite Wiifit/play/sport/etc. they still cater to regular gamers as well. Just because you don't like Metroid, Mario, Zelda etc. does not make them casual games, they weren't considered casual when Ocarina of Time and Mario 64 were released, why should they be considered as such now.

fletch_talon:

Wow, I would have expected someone who is basically an escapist celebrity would make an effort to not talk out of his arse.

I always talk out of my ass, there is never a time where I do not. The reason i'm apparently a 'celebrity' is because what I pull out of my ass is often correct or entertaining. I don't intend for it to be as such, I just do what I think of and for the most part people agree or enjoy it. If you don't like my opinions, then that's damn fine. I'm not telling you not to buy casual games or that you can't enjoy them, but that's you.

And then I read the rest of your post in detail, and found the following:

fletch_talon:
And clearly you have something against casual games... Right, so nobody but you and those who think just like you, are allowed to find enjoyment in interactive media? Go fuck off to your own little fantasy world if that's your opinion. Not everyone wants to play these so called "hardcore" games, some people want Peggle, Bejeweled, Wiifit, minigame compilations and the like. The massive flaw in your steak simile is that you order steak and expect steak, if you order a casual game and expect something else you're an idiot.

Look, i'm not here to butt heads with someone who is in this thread for a fight, I have bettter ways to spend my time than indulging another persons fanaticism. Lets be friends, you come down from your warhorse and you'll find that i'm not sitting on a high horse. Calm down, slugger, or you'll pull a muscle and end up walking funny. Tossing around assumptions about myself and what you assume my opinions are is good way to look like you're talking out of your ass, this isn't a personal battle and if you treat it as such you'll do nothing but waste our time.

Really, when did it become acceptable to open a rapport with insults and profanity? Civility, son, you could use it.

Compose yourself, and we'll have a proper discussion, but not before then.

Indigo_Dingo:

ChromeAlchemist:

Indigo_Dingo:
-snip-

Show me one review for Punchout Wii that didn't mention the original Punchout.

An exception to the rule. Mainly because of it's similarities to the original and sequel. Mentioning the original game doesn't mean that it is projecting the illusion of originality.

No, but it does mean that the reviewers weren't looking at it in a completely uncontextual manner, which is the fucking point of a review. Thus, we can agree its getting these points based on nostalgia.

That's bull. So you're telling me that when reviewers reviewed God Of War 2, Gears Of War 2, every other sequel in existence, that they didn't look at it's prequel as a point of reference? So you're telling me every sequel being reviewed is getting points based on nostalgia? Are you attempting to imply that any review of a sequel is not a real review?

Ultrajoe:

Look, i'm not here to butt heads with someone who is in this thread for a fight, I have bettter ways to spend my time than indulging another persons fanaticism. Lets be friends, you come down from your warhorse and you'll find that i'm not sitting on a high horse. Calm down, slugger, or you'll pull a muscle and end up walking funny. Tossing around assumptions about myself and what you assume my opinions are is good way to look like you're talking out of your ass, this isn't a personal battle and if you treat it as such you'll do nothing but waste our time.

Really, when did it become acceptable to open a rapport with insults and profanity? Civility, son, you could use it.

Compose yourself, and we'll have a proper discussion, but not before then.

I found the above pretty ironic considering the vitriolic tone of your earlier post.

Anyway, assuming you are ready to join the civil discussion at hand, what do you have against casual games that you feel the need to compare them to urine?

Ultrajoe:

fletch_talon:

Wow, I would have expected someone who is basically an escapist celebrity would make an effort to not talk out of his arse.

I always talk out of my ass, there is never a time where I do not. The reason i'm apparently a 'celebrity' is because what I pull out of my ass is often correct or entertaining. I don't intend for it to be as such, I just do what I think of and for the most part people agree or enjoy it. If you don't like my opinions, then that's damn fine. I'm not telling you not to buy casual games or that you can't enjoy them, but that's you.

And then I read the rest of your post in detail, and found the following:

fletch_talon:
And clearly you have something against casual games... Right, so nobody but you and those who think just like you, are allowed to find enjoyment in interactive media? Go fuck off to your own little fantasy world if that's your opinion. Not everyone wants to play these so called "hardcore" games, some people want Peggle, Bejeweled, Wiifit, minigame compilations and the like. The massive flaw in your steak simile is that you order steak and expect steak, if you order a casual game and expect something else you're an idiot.

Look, i'm not here to butt heads with someone who is in this thread for a fight, I have bettter ways to spend my time than indulging another persons fanaticism. Lets be friends, you come down from your warhorse and you'll find that i'm not sitting on a high horse. Calm down, slugger, or you'll pull a muscle and end up walking funny. Tossing around assumptions about myself and what you assume my opinions are is good way to look like you're talking out of your ass, this isn't a personal battle and if you treat it as such you'll do nothing but waste our time.

Really, when did it become acceptable to open a rapport with insults and profanity? Civility, son, you could use it.

Compose yourself, and we'll have a proper discussion, but not before then.

Apologies if you felt my reaction was over the top, needless to say you aren't the only person here that has aggravated me, but at this moment you're the one that has provoked it.

You claim that you're just voicing an opinion, but I have the view (or opinion if you will) that the moment you're opinion starts attempting to speak for everyone, as opposed to just yourself, it loses all credibility.

For example.
"I don't like casual games"
That's fine, it's YOUR opinion, reflecting your prefrences.

"Casual games are all of lower quality and are glasses of piss when compared to the tender steak that is a hardcore game."
This is you making a claim that doesn't identify itself as your opinion. It is a statement that is seemingly presented as fact and therefore gives an impression of superiority, as if your opinion should be accepted by all.

Basically your comment pissed me off because rather than citing examples of what it is you dislike about specific games, you've just come out of nowhere to say that games that you don't like are inferior in quality to those you do. I find console FPS to be incredibly awkward and personally I can't understand how anyone could find it better than a keyboard/mouse or Wiimote setup. I don't go out and say that console FPS is like a serving of cowshit when I ordered the chocolate pudding, because that implies that people who think otherwise are stupid for opposing my belief.

I'm quite happy to be on friendly terms with you, but when claims like that come out (even if you didn't intend to offend people) it angers me, my last post was the combined anger at dozens of posts that I refrained from replying to, I'm sorry it ended up being directed at you, but the point still stands.

...yeah still don't understand why people fight about this. its pretty pointless.

Indigo_Dingo:
When a series has continued on for more than 20 years, yes. Thats the distinction - nostalgia. No-one in 2007 was thinking what a great time 2005 was, and no-one in 2010 will think how great things were back in... ok, bad example, but you get my point (hopefully).

This has to bank on the fact that reviewers are factoring in nostalgia, when for the most part they don't. That's not what they are paid to do. I've seen reviewers say in their personal opinion that you might as well get the original, it's cheaper and is the same game. Doesn't sound like nostalgia to me.

I understand your point somewhat from a gamer perspective and agree with some of it, but not from a critical standpoint. That's not what they are paid for. The original Alone in the dark and it's sequels were great games, but the new one was garbage, and the reviewers and critics rated it accordingly. Where was the nostalgia there?

boholikeu:

I found the above pretty ironic considering the vitriolic tone of your earlier post.

The difference being that my earlier post wasn't aimed between the eyes of another person for the purpose of aggravating and belittling that person. You can be vitriolic, sardonic and abrasive all you damn please, but if you can't come out of the gates with a personal attack and expect to be taken seriously with it. And if you think my comment was a personal attack, and I'm not saying you do, then you need to stop linking your identity with your gaming choices, we have a word for that.

fletch_talon:

Basically your comment pissed me off because rather than citing examples of what it is you dislike about specific games, you've just come out of nowhere to say that games that you don't like are inferior in quality to those you do.

As with 100% of your problem with my comments, you'd solve a lot of stress and shortened lifespan if you didn't treat this thread as a hostile engagement zone. We're not your enemies or your opponents, and if you go around like an out of work Rambo trying to spot personal jibes in every post then your going to find them no matter what people say.

Indigo_Dingo:
They didn't have quality, the nostalgia give the illusion of quality.

And yet, people that have never picked up a game before enjoy Twilight Princess.

Trist66:
Dumbest. Post. Evar.

I mean hurdur, of course we abandoned them. They suck ass.

Your argument, it's power, she astounds me.

How do they suck ass? Because you don't enjoy their product? In that case, Filet Mignon, Take Two, and pizza sucks ass.

See how I didn't provide any argument? AH'M AMAZIN

Indigo_Dingo:

Flying-Emu:

Indigo_Dingo:
They didn't have quality, the nostalgia give the illusion of quality.

And yet, people that have never picked up a game before enjoy Twilight Princess.

Bullshit. The only reason I liked that game was that it was closer to the feel of Majoras Mask than Windwaker. It just wasn't anywhere close to as good.

Uhm.

So... how do you fall into my category of people who have 'never picked up a game'?

I always wondered why people cared so much about [console A] enough to run out and defend it. Who cares? It's not going to lower sales, nor will it make the people who don't like it buy it. Nor will it effect your life in any form or way, Nintendo isn't paying you (unless they are then that's interesting). To be honest I don't care about a console I enjoy the games, I'll defend certain aspects but people don't like [Console A], does this REALLY bother you? And if so why?

Why is it that when people mention 'hardcore' games, monochrome environments and realistic blood-splatter spring to mind?

I just want to know exactly what constitutes core or casual.
I mean take some of the casual games you listed like Punch out & Mario. They are not casual, they are classic. By saying that playing them makes you casual then that means all the olllllld school geeks, the grandaddies of gaming were all just casual gamers? Meh.

Indigo_Dingo:

Flying-Emu:

Indigo_Dingo:

Flying-Emu:

Indigo_Dingo:
They didn't have quality, the nostalgia give the illusion of quality.

And yet, people that have never picked up a game before enjoy Twilight Princess.

Bullshit. The only reason I liked that game was that it was closer to the feel of Majoras Mask than Windwaker. It just wasn't anywhere close to as good.

Uhm.

So... how do you fall into my category of people who have 'never picked up a game'?

None. I was using that as an example of how the games nostalgia was all it had going for them.

A person who hasn't picked up a game before is unlikely to hve anything to compare it to. You could give them anything rated over a 7 and they'll be floored by it, due to it defying their expectations.

However, using yourself as a force for your argument was a flaw, because I know for a fact that you've played games before and have that nostalgia as part of your evaluation of the game. Your younger memories (which I'm assuming you are coloured in some way by the passage of time) of playing Zelda are most likely biased by the fact that it was long ago; everything seems better when it's in the past.

But yes, I see your point. However, if a game is rated over a 7 (which is considered an 'average' game by most sources), how can you call it bullshit?

Because you expected more because of the brand, thereby giving it that dose of nostalgia.

Indigo_Dingo:
Actually, no. The original Punchout was hardcore, emphasis on hard, due mainly to Mike Tyson and his tendency to knock the player out with one punch.

Therefore Tetris is the most hardcore game ever as you can not actually beat it. It just speeds up and up and up until you die. That also means that something Battletoads or I Want to be the Guy are more hardcore than Gears or Mass Effect.