Fanboy alert!

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone except for very very pretty harlots should keep theirs covered :D

Hardcore & casual are terms used by children attempting to label something they cant wrap their head around. Example I am a bloody good FPS'er, A great simmer (I will bloody well shoot you down in my Hurricane trust me), I do full blown RPG experience. I traipse through every inch of a RPG, every side quest, every fetch & carry, I dont play any game on anything less than the hardest setting & I try to hit all the ingame marks (acheivements, I dont do the kill 10000000000000000 Gnorts outside Mos Eisley type number grinding though thats crap.) I've been playing games (all types, board, table, miniatures, console, computer) daily as a hobby for roughly 25 years. I've ran tables at 'cons, I've adminned, I've done clan matches, I've won clan matches. I am 'hardcore'.

But funnily enough Im crap at racing games the only ones Im even semi good at are Twisted Metal & Destruction Derby. I suck mightily at racing games. So does that mean Im casual ? Is a game valued by its difficulty ?

That means its easy to make a hardcore game play Hello Kitty: Roller Rescue (A bangingly good game BTW, I highly recommend it)& unplug the controllers, There, kudos, your a hardcore gamer.

Of course these 'hardcore' gamers are screwed when Direct Nueral Interfaces are viable & every player has to rely on his brain rather than his muscle memory.

I think that anybody with ears and a brain that could interpret what goes into them would realize that Yahtzee hates every facet of Nintendo's existence, and in actuality has criticized their hardcore branch for being fucking stale more-so than their casual branch for any reason whatsoever. Maybe this post would've meant something to me if you wouldn't have spent half of it putting words into people's mouths.

Actually, what you said about people abandoning Nintendo in the N64 and GC era, I agree with it.

Stop bossing me about, you could have atleast used the word please.

I don't care what people do with their time and money, buy as many Wii's as you want.

The Wii is not merely focusing on casual gamers anymore (i'll stop using the term when something comes to replace it) and is quite obviously attempting to take the console to the veteran gamers by producing things like dead space extraction and the conduit.
Why should people complain about casual gaming? Only idiots who term themselves 'hardcore' do so.

What if I continue to complain? *gasp*

I'll stop complaining when Nintendo makes Pikmin 3.

Do you know why people abandoned Nintendo around the GC era? Because the platform continued to put out games sparsely, and when it did, they were either third-tier multiplatform ports or forgettable exclusives that were likely ported at a later time. Of course, I generalize, and there will always be exceptions to what I've said, but the gist of it is unarguably true. With their fanbase low at the time of the Wii's arrival, and news that they'd only be able to put out very few, very diluted multiplatform titles (due to graphical limitations), their audience simply gave a loud "Fuck it!" and went off to graze in greener pastures.

How do I know? This exact thing happened to myself, and before the Wii, I was a big supporter of the company. Of course, I can't say I hate them, because ruling out an entire developer without playing all their games would be silly, but I have little faith that they can continue to entertain me in the future.

With that said, OP, shut your fanboy trap. I love my Playstation 3, but you don't see me shamelessly (SONY®) promoting ([]/\OX) it (BLURAY®) everywhere. (LIVE IN YOUR WORLD, PLAY IN OURS)

Ace of Spades:
I'll stop complaining when Nintendo makes Pikmin 3.

Something they have already confirmed. I would expect to see it sometime in 2010, 2011 at the most. Until then, you could always play the New Play Control! Pikmin games.

Indigo_Dingo:

avykins:

Indigo_Dingo:
Actually, no. The original Punchout was hardcore, emphasis on hard, due mainly to Mike Tyson and his tendency to knock the player out with one punch.

Therefore Tetris is the most hardcore game ever as you can not actually beat it. It just speeds up and up and up until you die. That also means that something Battletoads or I Want to be the Guy are more hardcore than Gears or Mass Effect.

Difficulty isn't all there is to it, but its a big redeeming factor.

Yeah, because the difficulty in Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts made it one of the best games ever.

Mr. Fister:

Ace of Spades:
I'll stop complaining when Nintendo makes Pikmin 3.

Something they have already confirmed. I would expect to see it sometime in 2010, 2011 at the most. Until then, you could always play the New Play Control! Pikmin games.

Indigo_Dingo:

avykins:

Indigo_Dingo:
Actually, no. The original Punchout was hardcore, emphasis on hard, due mainly to Mike Tyson and his tendency to knock the player out with one punch.

Therefore Tetris is the most hardcore game ever as you can not actually beat it. It just speeds up and up and up until you die. That also means that something Battletoads or I Want to be the Guy are more hardcore than Gears or Mass Effect.

Difficulty isn't all there is to it, but its a big redeeming factor.

Yeah, because the difficulty in Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts made it one of the best games ever.

Okay, let me adjust it a bit. I'll stop complaining when they release it.

casual gamers are to gaming what Micheal bay fans are to movies.

Did anyone actually read the Birdman article that was posted last page? If so, how is this thread teetering on the verge of a flamewar?

How can a company "abandon" anyone? The only connection any company has to a customer is through the papery things residing in your wallet, and people need to remember that.

It seems to me that games for everyone (ie something my mum can play like Wii Sports) are being tarred with the 'casual' brush, in the same way that anyone who looked at you funny in the middle ages would be tarred with the 'witch' brush. Why? What makes them so offensive that you can't abide being on the same plane of existence as them? Wii Sports is fun! It's fuck all to do with Nintendo, it's to do with good games and bad games, just as it always has been. Why people feel the need to blame Nintendo for something that isn't really blame-worthy anyway, especially since they have nothing to do with most of it, is beyond me.

itsmeyouidiot:
Snip

First off, Super Mario Galaxy is not a "hardcore" game. Secondly, you failed to mention the staggering number of "casual" games in comparison to the handful of "hardcore"ish games you mentioned (I don't count some of those as hardcore).

I'll just use this link as an example of what people think are must-plays for the Wii.

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/207033/feature-the-28-best-wii-games/

Xojins:

itsmeyouidiot:
Snip

First off, Super Mario Galaxy is not a "hardcore" game. Secondly, you failed to mention the staggering number of "casual" games in comparison to the handful of "hardcore"ish games you mentioned (I don't count some of those as hardcore).

I'll just use this link as an example of what people think are must-plays for the Wii.

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/207033/feature-the-28-best-wii-games/

To answer your first two points, what is a "hardcore" game? You can't just go around labeling games as "hardcore" or "casual" without a solid definition.

As for the link, I don't see anything wrong with it (aside from being somewhat outdated), seeing as how most, if not all, of those games are excellent.

Just chuckle at nintendo's whoring, ignore it and move on like most people.

Casual gaming: fine
Shovelware: most definitely not fucking fine

Never before have I seen so many crappy, cheap, almost certainly bad games on a single console.
Nintendo really needs to control this crap, it's getting embarrassing.

Graustein:

PsychoJosh:
Super Mario Galaxy is not now, nor has it ever been, a hardcore title.

You make this statement as if it means anything.

It's good to have ya back. ^_^

The Wiimote is not fun.

Get used to it.

Oh, and because I feel the need to copypaste one of Yahtzee's famous quotes again, if a bit messily...

Nintendo is a big boy now. It doesn't need you defending it like a valiant warrior who they'll throw away to cater to another audience.

Thank you. Good day.

I cannot believe how right Yahtzee was.

itsmeyouidiot:
There are a truly astounding number of people on the internet that continue to complain about the so-called "casual" audience, and that Nintendo supposedly makes games for despite the fact that they also make games that aren't "casual" and are made mainly for the people that have been buying from them since the NES/SNES/N64 eras. Nintendo releases many games like Exitebots, Punch-Out, Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime, and a bunch of new titles this year at e3 and of the so-called "hardcore" all just bitch, bitch, bitch.

Even Yahtzee, who I respect somewhat despite making internet gaming culture as a whole twice as hostile, continues to appeal to the dumber people on the internet's gaming community by insisting that Nintendo has abandoned the "hardcore" audience. Now, I may tolerate the large number of inaccuracies and batant falsehoods in his reviews for the sake of humor, but making statements like these only assures that the ZP-fanboys will only repeat what he says constantly and continue to believe that the "casual" audience is a threat, no matter what conclusion logic would reach.

Nintendo didn't "abandon" its hardcore audience, and it still hasn't. If anything, a lot the hardcore audience abandoned Nintendo. With the N64, a lot of customers were lost to the Playstation, and Nintendo gained a reputation as sort of a "kiddy" game company. They tried to correct the mistakes they made with the N64 with the GCN, but most of you people flocked to the PS2 and Xbox as though Nintendo were now just an afterthought. After two generations of being in last place, is it any wonder they want to expand to new audiences? And furthermore, why are so many "hardcore" gamers upset about the direction Nintendo is taking when so many of them didn't care for Nintendo in the first place? And why to so many people think that the "hardcore" and "casual" audiences are mutually exclusive?

I would also like to point out that many of the people complaining are not considering any of the positive aspects of the "casual" audiece. Not to insult anyone, but for a reasonable period of time, anyone who considered gaming a serious hobby was usually dismissed as a "loser" with "no life." Now that the hobby is appealing to people beyond a "hardcore" niche, people might actually accept "hardcore" gamers for what we do in our spare time.

In the end, I believe that the whole "casual" dillema really only amounts to scapegoating. Ever since gaming was exposed to the internet there have been scapegoats for the problems with the entire industry. For the past two generations we had the people who only bought consoles to play EA Sports games, and today we have the so-called "casual audience" that will apparantly ruin gaming forever just like dozens of other things have in the past.

uhm..

well...

All I can say is, well said. I cannot argue any of the points, especially since I use the WiiFit everyday.

Yahtzee isn't saying that Nintendo abandoned hardcore gamers, he just pointed out "[they're] a videogames company, not Fisher Price". There's a subtle difference.

I'm more annoyed that Nintendo are becoming more and more greedy. Controller add-ons costing a fortune, re-releasing Gamecube titles with Wii controls thrown in. For fuck's sake Nintendo, think of some new ideas. The last one they had was Pikmin back at the Gamecube's launch.

Nintendo's hardcore games suck anyway...

Booze Zombie:
I don't hate Nintendo because they pander to the inbred masses, I hate Nintendo because they make boring games and gimmicky consoles.

Please don't assume you know what everyone coming to read your thread thinks on a subject or you'll be in for a surprise.

Thank you.

FightThePower:
I'm more annoyed that Nintendo are becoming more and more greedy. Controller add-ons costing a fortune, re-releasing Gamecube titles with Wii controls thrown in. For fuck's sake Nintendo, think of some new ideas. The last one they had was Pikmin back at the Gamecube's launch.

Wii Sports?

Mr. Fister:

Xojins:

itsmeyouidiot:
Snip

First off, Super Mario Galaxy is not a "hardcore" game. Secondly, you failed to mention the staggering number of "casual" games in comparison to the handful of "hardcore"ish games you mentioned (I don't count some of those as hardcore).

I'll just use this link as an example of what people think are must-plays for the Wii.

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/207033/feature-the-28-best-wii-games/

To answer your first two points, what is a "hardcore" game? You can't just go around labeling games as "hardcore" or "casual" without a solid definition.

As for the link, I don't see anything wrong with it (aside from being somewhat outdated), seeing as how most, if not all, of those games are excellent.

Actually I could do that, but I don't. You just don't understand what I consider to be a "hardcore" or "casual" game. It doesn't mean I don't have a definition.

Yes, in your opinion most of those games are excellent. Many other people (including myself) disagree. Some of them are good games, but most certainly not all. Even still it's beside the point; whether a game is "casual" or "hardcore" has no bearing on how much fun it can be.

Actually I could do that, but I don't. You just don't understand what I consider to be a "hardcore" or "casual" game. It doesn't mean I don't have a definition.

Yes, in your opinion most of those games are excellent. Many other people (including myself) disagree. Some of them are good games, but most certainly not all. Even still it's beside the point; whether a game is "casual" or "hardcore" has no bearing on how much fun it can be.

I suggest that you stop beating around the bush and actually give your definition.

I'm more annoyed that Nintendo are becoming more and more greedy. Controller add-ons costing a fortune, re-releasing Gamecube titles with Wii controls thrown in. For fuck's sake Nintendo, think of some new ideas. The last one they had was Pikmin back at the Gamecube's launch.

I find this statement funny. Microsoft and Sony just as guilty of being greedy as Nintendo is and some how it's terrible once they start being capitalistic.

Xojins:

Mr. Fister:

Xojins:

itsmeyouidiot:
Snip

First off, Super Mario Galaxy is not a "hardcore" game. Secondly, you failed to mention the staggering number of "casual" games in comparison to the handful of "hardcore"ish games you mentioned (I don't count some of those as hardcore).

I'll just use this link as an example of what people think are must-plays for the Wii.

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/207033/feature-the-28-best-wii-games/

To answer your first two points, what is a "hardcore" game? You can't just go around labeling games as "hardcore" or "casual" without a solid definition.

As for the link, I don't see anything wrong with it (aside from being somewhat outdated), seeing as how most, if not all, of those games are excellent.

Actually I could do that, but I don't. You just don't understand what I consider to be a "hardcore" or "casual" game. It doesn't mean I don't have a definition.

Yes, in your opinion most of those games are excellent. Many other people (including myself) disagree. Some of them are good games, but most certainly not all. Even still it's beside the point; whether a game is "casual" or "hardcore" has no bearing on how much fun it can be.

But that's my point: there is no solid definition of what a "hardcore" and "casual" game is that everyone can agree on. Until we find a solid definition that everyone can agree on, there's little point in saying Game X is casual or hardcore like you're the one who decides these things.

Opinion is always subjective, but the reason those games are listed are because they are exceptionally well-made games. Many people who are into those games love them because of the high quality put into them.

I like nintendo, I grew up with an NES, but that doesnt mean I have to keep loving it out of respect for the glory days. I mean I used to drink out of a bottle, but that's no longer appealing. (no thats not a metaphor to say I think wii is kiddy, madworld and that gem of a game no more heroes prove that as well as the wii version of re4)

What did irk me was the red steel commercial I saw that persuaded me to buy a wii, and the fact that I realized all the "cool" games would be on Xbox and ps3. Since the playstation had been my previous companion i decided why not and got a ps3 with mgs4. I still use the wii for wiifit mostly, since it helps me warm up pretty well, but thats all, I dont feel like throwing money at it. Its not the wii's fault, its just that many of the series I started to like since the ps1 and ps2 were on the ps3, as well as fallout 3 and all of these games that my computer started to have a little trouble with (They are playable).

I dont care how hard a game is, or if anyone else beat it, but I do like the amazing graphics, I do like the fact that MGs4 made me feel so super nostalgic and almost made me shed a tear, I do like playing these games. Do i care if they are easy or controller crushingly hard? no

so my point is...I dont think it should matter what games you or your neighbor play, as long as they are fun, and as long as people love shooting, slashing, and dashing through games, those styles will continue. This "casual" crowd just likes a different style of games, so let them have their fun!

I agree with OP and i have this to add to the arguement:

Gaming as a whole has had a very samey fanbase since its beginning, the 'nerds' as they are called, eventually the nerds grew up, have cut back on gaming because they recieved LIVES, or even stopped gaming all together. Now i ask you, if developers keep catering to the 'hardcore' crowd exclusivley, what will happen when we grow old, get lives and either cut back or stop gaming all together? our beloved passtime will die. If anything, we should be happy that nintendo is making games for youngins' and old timers, why? because it's increasing the consumer base,so that when we grow up, get jobs, families and lives, the youngins' will take our place to ensure that our chosen medium of entertainment won't die out, so that the childeren of their generation can start gaming aswell, so that the consumer base will continue to increase and keep gaming alive and well.

that probably sounded/read really badly, but that last speech was basically paraphrasing (really badly however) moviebob's speech which can be found here:
what I'm trying to say and failing at miserably

OK, after watching this video again, it's some other video by him, but this video adds to this arguement also

Indigo_Dingo:
Show me one review for Punchout Wii that didn't mention the original Punchout.

Keep in mind that I've never played the original: I'm reviewing the game by it's own merits. And it was still great.

Also, Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess, while both being somewhat decent games overall, suffered from an extreme problem: a TERRIBLE opening sequence that nearly drove me to insanity / bored me to tears respectively. I hate those Zelda games, but love the 2D ones, especially the ones on the GBA. You know why? They are excellent, unlike their mediocre 3D counterparts.

Nostalgia is often ignored in reviews unless it increases or decreases the awesome levels of the game substantially. For instance, I'd say that the Resident Evil movies would be half-decent, if they didn't have the RE name attached to them. That brings in my nostalgia factor, which when applied to those movies makes me hate them for butchering one of my favorite videogame licenses.

I personally I'm not going to complain about Nintendo's strategy, first of all it's brilliant, and secondly I PLAY GAMES. I don't care who makes them, I only want them to be fun.

Mr. Fister:

Xojins:

Mr. Fister:

Xojins:

itsmeyouidiot:
Snip

First off, Super Mario Galaxy is not a "hardcore" game. Secondly, you failed to mention the staggering number of "casual" games in comparison to the handful of "hardcore"ish games you mentioned (I don't count some of those as hardcore).

I'll just use this link as an example of what people think are must-plays for the Wii.

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/207033/feature-the-28-best-wii-games/

To answer your first two points, what is a "hardcore" game? You can't just go around labeling games as "hardcore" or "casual" without a solid definition.

As for the link, I don't see anything wrong with it (aside from being somewhat outdated), seeing as how most, if not all, of those games are excellent.

Actually I could do that, but I don't. You just don't understand what I consider to be a "hardcore" or "casual" game. It doesn't mean I don't have a definition.

Yes, in your opinion most of those games are excellent. Many other people (including myself) disagree. Some of them are good games, but most certainly not all. Even still it's beside the point; whether a game is "casual" or "hardcore" has no bearing on how much fun it can be.

But that's my point: there is no solid definition of what a "hardcore" and "casual" game is that everyone can agree on. Until we find a solid definition that everyone can agree on, there's little point in saying Game X is casual or hardcore like you're the one who decides these things.

Opinion is always subjective, but the reason those games are listed are because they are exceptionally well-made games. Many people who are into those games love them because of the high quality put into them.

There is a point. This whole thread revolves around Nintendo's "hardcore" vs "casual" games, so the point would be to contribute my two cents, AKA express my opinion. That's pretty much the point of a thread on any forum, so why tell me there's no point? I never thought I was "the one who decides these things," so I don't know where you're getting that from.

Again, any game can be well made, no matter if it's hardcore or casual. I never said any of them were bad, just that not many of them are hardcore.

Everything in the universe has it's rightful place and serves some kind of purpose. And as long as Nintendo attracts little children enough to keep them off the voice chat in online shooters, it's doing it's job.
Imagine a world without casual games, every kid would play Halo 3(or any other shooter) with a shitty microphone, annoying the hell out of people.

Xojins:

Mr. Fister:

Xojins:

Mr. Fister:

Xojins:

itsmeyouidiot:
Snip

First off, Super Mario Galaxy is not a "hardcore" game. Secondly, you failed to mention the staggering number of "casual" games in comparison to the handful of "hardcore"ish games you mentioned (I don't count some of those as hardcore).

I'll just use this link as an example of what people think are must-plays for the Wii.

http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/207033/feature-the-28-best-wii-games/

To answer your first two points, what is a "hardcore" game? You can't just go around labeling games as "hardcore" or "casual" without a solid definition.

As for the link, I don't see anything wrong with it (aside from being somewhat outdated), seeing as how most, if not all, of those games are excellent.

Actually I could do that, but I don't. You just don't understand what I consider to be a "hardcore" or "casual" game. It doesn't mean I don't have a definition.

Yes, in your opinion most of those games are excellent. Many other people (including myself) disagree. Some of them are good games, but most certainly not all. Even still it's beside the point; whether a game is "casual" or "hardcore" has no bearing on how much fun it can be.

But that's my point: there is no solid definition of what a "hardcore" and "casual" game is that everyone can agree on. Until we find a solid definition that everyone can agree on, there's little point in saying Game X is casual or hardcore like you're the one who decides these things.

Opinion is always subjective, but the reason those games are listed are because they are exceptionally well-made games. Many people who are into those games love them because of the high quality put into them.

There is a point. This whole thread revolves around Nintendo's "hardcore" vs "casual" games, so the point would be to contribute my two cents, AKA express my opinion. That's pretty much the point of a thread on any forum, so why tell me there's no point? I never thought I was "the one who decides these things," so I don't know where you're getting that from.

Again, any game can be well made, no matter if it's hardcore or casual. I never said any of them were bad, just that not many of them are hardcore.

I think we're starting to get off-track, so I'll go ahead and answer both points with the same statement: It doesn't matter whether or not a game is "hardcore" or "casual", the only thing that matters is if it's fun to play. It's what video gaming was originally all about, not to be "hardcore" or "extreme", but to be fun to the people who play them. Arguing about whether or not a game is hardcore or casual is pointless; I've played several games from both sides of the spectrum (if there is one), and while I will always eagerly await the next Zelda and No More Heroes, I still get a kick out of WiiSports (and hopefully WiiSports Resort). This guy explains things so much better than I ever can, if my point still doesn't come across.