Every person I know who owns a Wii barely plays it anymore. Every household of casuals I know who bought a Wii because of Wii Sports never touches the thing these days.
I used to defend the Wii to a Gamestop employee I know, but more and more, I lose the arguments, especially after the employee points out that tons of Wiis are being traded in on a regular basis. Why? The kids got bored with it. In the long run, it turns out that the novelty wears off and people would just prefer to sit idle and play their games without having to flail all over the place.
Yes, I feel the Wii's motion control had a great deal of potential, but it's potential that few if any devs aspired to. I can't recall a game after Wii Sports that REALLY sold the concept of motion control by using it to add depth to a game instead of just adding waggle (I don't count pointer games because it's basically just mouse functionality). Here we are, three years later, and motion control is basically sitting dead in the water.
But Natal REALLY scares me, because MS only has two options when they release it:
1. Release it as an add-on to the 360, inevitably dooming it to failure as few devs will make games for an optional peripheral (the same problem Wii Motion Plus will no doubt face).
2. Release it as the primary means of interface for the Xbox720 and rebrand the whole thing for casuals. If MS gives devs an option to not support it, they probably won't, so they'll need to force devs to incorporate Natal features and screw over the majority of the hardcore fanbase who enjoy games with depth.
The only thing that makes marathon gaming sessions (the kind that we all know and love) actually possible is the fact that all it takes is ever so slight tensing of the finger tendons (or pivoting of the wrist with a mouse) to do so. That's all the energy output it requires to play a long, in-depth game.
Remove the controller and EVERY command must be a gesture. Is Natal going to sense when I slightly move my index finger to pull a trigger in a FPS? Doubtful. For that matter, how am I going to aim at an enemy while strafing to the left, switching weapons and jumping, all at the same time? That's something that most FPSes require a player to be able to do in order to play effectively.
Am I going to lean my whole body to the left while pointing my left index finger at the screen like a gun, pumping my right arm to change weapons and jumping up and down to make my character jump? Answer to a rhetorical question: I sure as hell won't, and neither will any other FPS player.
Most people might not see the danger here, but MS will inevitably need to push Natal onto developers in SOME fashion in order to ensure that good games are made for it. Otherwise, they risk being in the same boat as Nintendo where they've personally made some decent motion-controlled games while most other devs have only made crappy, waggle-ridden garbage for the system.
I get a headache just thinking about it. Sure, I'm probably overreacting, but MS is (was) the last bastion of hardcore console gaming.
EDIT: Yes, I'd love to believe this won't affect gaming, but think about it: MS has poured millions upon millions into R&D on Natal (and is still pouring more into it, no doubt). Does anyone think they're just going to launch it, see a negative reaction and then slink away from it in shame? No, they're going to stick with it, even if that does mean making Natal-ready games the standard.
EDIT3: I'd like people to do some serious consideration of the word "potential" because I hear it an awful lot. But here's the thing, I heard it an awful lot back before the Wii came out and everyone was talking about how motion control could take games in new and exciting directions.
Why do people think Natal will be any different? At least with the Wii, you have controllers with buttons, making the system a hybrid of motion control and standard controls so developers wouldn't be forced to go full on into motion controls. What's the end result? Waggle. Sure, devs COULD have used the motion sensors in conjunction with the buttons on the controller to add layers of depth to the game, but no, we didn't get that.
The "potential" of Wii motion control is so unrealized that Nintendo has felt the need to release WMP to hopefully convince developers to try something interesting with it.
So, no, there is no "potential" with Natal and what developers will do with it. If developers were itching to abandon archaic controllers, they'd have been like pigs in slop when it came to the Wii. The Wii is cheaper to develop for due to not needing HD graphics AND it has a larger install base by 20 million units. If that wasn't enough, there's always WiiWare where you can test a game concept with little worry about recouping losses on printing discs.
And yet, we haven't seen these bold, experimental games from developers. For the most part, all we get are shallow, mini-game, waggle-fests and the occasional rare gem like Little King's Story (which uses zero motion control).
Explain to me why developers who could work with incredibly low risk on the Wii to create something new and unique decided not to, yet we expect these same developers to jump at the chance to make full-body waggle games on Natal.
You're not the first to complain about Natal. Now, I agree that it would suck to walk in place or jump while playing a game, but think for a second.
Did the Wii implement these ridiculous actions? No. Do you think Microsoft would do so with Natal? No. Who would even buy it if it was required for every game released thereafter? Nobody.
AncientYoungSon: I get a headache just thinking about it. Sure, I'm probably overreacting, but MS is (was) the last bastion of hardcore console gaming.
Ugh. Not "OMGZ WE R TEH HARDCOREZ" again. Oh, and.
It's not like anyone's forcing you to buy it. I myself don't like the concept of Natal. My solution; I just won't play it. And if they make it a part of the Xbox 720, I just won't buy one.
There's no sense complaining about something if that something won't affect you in the least.
AncientYoungSon: but MS is (was) the last bastion of hardcore console gaming.
no offense but what about the ps3? i have a ps3 and it kicks ass just as well as the xbox. i have put hundreds of hours into it and plan to continue to do so. i don't know if you are a fanboy or if you just haven't played it but calling the xbox the "the last bastion of hardcore console gaming" is nothing sort of absolutely retarded. i have all consoles and in my opinion the ps3 and xbox are both good. and sony is coming out with a product that is almost the same as a wiimote and natal.
AncientYoungSon: but MS is (was) the last bastion of hardcore console gaming.
no offense but what about the ps3? i have a ps3 and it kicks ass just as well as the xbox. i have put hundreds of hours into it and plan to continue to do so. i don't know if you are a fanboy or if you just haven't played it but calling the xbox the "the last bastion of hardcore console gaming" is nothing sort of absolutely retarded. i have all consoles and in my opinion the ps3 and xbox are both good. and sony is coming out with a product that is almost the same as a wiimote and natal.
I own a PS3 and I've loved Uncharted, LBP and InFamous, but...
You're not the first to complain about Natal. Now, I agree that it would suck to walk in place or jump while playing a game, but think for a second.
Did the Wii implement these ridiculous actions? No. Do you think Microsoft would do so with Natal? No. Who would even buy it if it was required for every game released thereafter? Nobody.
Easy to understand, no?
Project Natal has no controllers at all thats the whole point! So how are you going to walk or jump or shoot or anything like that without making the poor gamer stand in front of the screen and gesture. Unless you use the wireless controller in conjunction with project Natal which defies the point of having it. I have a Wii I got it for this Christmas just gone and haven't really played it since February. it's like what Yahtzee said in his Wii sports resort video. 'Without physical feedback motion controls are unimmersive. In the long run they can only hope to sucker in casual gamers with teaspoon shallow mini-games like Wii sports, the gaming equivalent of the cartoon cinemas used to play before the film. I say stop buying the Wii, **** project Natal up the arse and maybe this whole motion sensor trend can **** off and make room for the next innovation, like cyberspace. or a controller made of...fruit.'
AncientYoungSon: but MS is (was) the last bastion of hardcore console gaming.
no offense but what about the ps3? i have a ps3 and it kicks ass just as well as the xbox. i have put hundreds of hours into it and plan to continue to do so. i don't know if you are a fanboy or if you just haven't played it but calling the xbox the "the last bastion of hardcore console gaming" is nothing sort of absolutely retarded. i have all consoles and in my opinion the ps3 and xbox are both good. and sony is coming out with a product that is almost the same as a wiimote and natal.
I own a PS3 and I've loved Uncharted, LBP and InFamous, but...
And now, people begin to learn why I have a personal vendetta against the Wii.
It's not because it sucks. It's because, considering its popularity, it has a good chance of gradually making everything else suck. It's already taken Monster Hunter. Who knows what will be next?
You're not the first to complain about Natal. Now, I agree that it would suck to walk in place or jump while playing a game, but think for a second.
Did the Wii implement these ridiculous actions? No. Do you think Microsoft would do so with Natal? No. Who would even buy it if it was required for every game released thereafter? Nobody.
Easy to understand, no?
Project Natal has no controllers at all thats the whole point! So how are you going to walk or jump or shoot or anything like that without making the poor gamer stand in front of the screen and gesture. Unless you use the wireless controller in conjunction with project Natal which defies the point of having it. I have a Wii I got it for this Christmas just gone and haven't really played it since February. it's like what Yahtzee said in his Wii sports resort video. 'Without physical feedback motion controls are unimmersive. In the long run they can only hope to sucker in casual gamers with teaspoon shallow mini-games like Wii sports, the gaming equivalent of the cartoon cinemas used to play before the film. I say stop buying the Wii, **** project Natal up the arse and maybe this whole motion sensor trend can **** off and make room for the next innovation, like cyberspace. or a controller made of...fruit.'
It took me a few minutes to keep from blowing up with frustration towards you. Now that I'm a little better, allow me to say this:
NATAL WON'T BE FULLY IMPLEMENTED WITH EVERY FUCKING GAME!!!
Do you really think you'll be forced to use Natal? Do you really think Natal will be used for even the most complex of FPS or RPG games? No, No, NO. Natal won't fucking ruin your precious non-casual gaming for the 360.
I personally hate dislike Natal whine and everything it stands for.
We currently don't know much about it. Microsoft is reviving the EyeToy, that's it. I'm fine with speculation, just, put down your "the end is near" signs.
The Wii was built entirely around motion control. It was a part of it's control system and it had little more to offer. No HD graphics, no functional online play, no voice chat and very little 3rd party support. The 360 still has all of that, just because it will have motion control in the near future that doesn't mean Ubisoft will drop whatever they're working on and start making party games instead. If it was more profitable to just make gimmicky motion control games then the Wii would have much more third party support than it has today.
Take it easy, you will never have to shoot bullets using your hands and you will never have to move your body in order to jump. If you're going to, it will never become the standard unless it actually works. People will not play games they don't like, and games that nobody likes won't be sold, games that don't sell won't be made.
If we can get some good (not necessarily "hard core" in the common definition i.e. guns 'n gore) games out of Natal then hurray! More fun for us. If we just get a couple of gimmick games before it fades away then we get away with a scratched wallet and the conclusion that it wasn't such a good idea. Either way it's not the end of the world.
Christ, I hate this "Hardcore" gamer us-vs-them mentality. Casual games may not be what you like, but they're only positive for the industry, as they expose it to more and more people who might find it fun. Going back to when gaming was only done by 13 year old shut-ins solves nothing.
You're not the first to complain about Natal. Now, I agree that it would suck to walk in place or jump while playing a game, but think for a second.
Did the Wii implement these ridiculous actions? No. Do you think Microsoft would do so with Natal? No. Who would even buy it if it was required for every game released thereafter? Nobody.
Easy to understand, no?
Project Natal has no controllers at all thats the whole point! So how are you going to walk or jump or shoot or anything like that without making the poor gamer stand in front of the screen and gesture. Unless you use the wireless controller in conjunction with project Natal which defies the point of having it. I have a Wii I got it for this Christmas just gone and haven't really played it since February. it's like what Yahtzee said in his Wii sports resort video. 'Without physical feedback motion controls are unimmersive. In the long run they can only hope to sucker in casual gamers with teaspoon shallow mini-games like Wii sports, the gaming equivalent of the cartoon cinemas used to play before the film. I say stop buying the Wii, **** project Natal up the arse and maybe this whole motion sensor trend can **** off and make room for the next innovation, like cyberspace. or a controller made of...fruit.'
Microsoft is known for their "hardcore" games, and I highly doubt they're stupid enough to alienate that basis. Without the masses of Halo, Gears of Wars, and Call of Duty fans, Microsoft would die. Simple.
Also to those who didn't get it, Xbox720 is just a joke name.
Honestly, this thread is as bad as all the "OMG L4D2 IS VALVe CONNING US" threads that popped up on the steam forums during E3. Also swine flu.
*puts on anti-flame war outfit and runs into thread screaming "GERANIMOOOOO!"*
I like the concept of the Natal, but it won't make me but an Xbox. No one is going to force you to play it, so just relax and try not get so worked up about it :)
NATAL WON'T BE FULLY IMPLEMENTED WITH EVERY FUCKING GAME!!!
Do you really think you'll be forced to use Natal? Do you really think Natal will be used for even the most complex of FPS or RPG games? No, No, NO. Natal won't fucking ruin your precious non-casual gaming for the 360.
*sits you down with a cup of tea and a cookie* There there, let it all out ;)
Project Natal has no controllers at all thats the whole point! So how are you going to walk or jump or shoot or anything like that without making the poor gamer stand in front of the screen and gesture. Unless you use the wireless controller in conjunction with project Natal which defies the point of having it. I have a Wii I got it for this Christmas just gone and haven't really played it since February. it's like what Yahtzee said in his Wii sports resort video. 'Without physical feedback motion controls are unimmersive. In the long run they can only hope to sucker in casual gamers with teaspoon shallow mini-games like Wii sports, the gaming equivalent of the cartoon cinemas used to play before the film. I say stop buying the Wii, **** project Natal up the arse and maybe this whole motion sensor trend can **** off and make room for the next innovation, like cyberspace. or a controller made of...fruit.'
I found it funny that nobody seemed to clue into the irony in that statement: "the next innovation, like cyberspace", which, when you think about it is actually what the Wii-mote and Natal are the next step toward, only without the inconvenience of requiring a black-market brain surgeon in Chiba.
And yes, according to MS and some of the press reviewers, Natal can indeed sense when you move your trigger finger. And you know the other fun thing about Natal.. it can use props. Hell, it can scan your props and put them ingame.
Will it mean different games? Sure. Since when did different become a bad thing? It's not like the Xbox, or PS3, or any other console is free of garbage games right now. It just means that there'll be more opportunity for anybody to find what they like, not just the OCD crowd who happen to have the time and lack of other activities that make marathon gaming sessions enjoyable.
What are you really afraid of? That your own personal desires will no longer be catered to? Please. The industry is made of people like you and me, and we're a well understood demographic. To think that games for folks like us will disappear is just silly.
No. Two visual inputs, one in IR. This gives it both depth perception and live-object differentiation. It also contains within it voice recognition and facial recognition software, which Milo demonstrated. (Incidentally, Milo is crap, IMO, but the underlying concepts of what it demonstrates are kind of breathtaking when you think about it). In comparison, the eye-toy was simply a glorified webcam.
I really hope people will stop getting their panties in a bunch every time something might not be the most hardcore thing ever invented. I like Natal. Do I think that it will revolutionize gaming or be a gigantic hit? No. Do I think that every game will make full use of it? Hell no.
you know, i respect the ps3's motion control the most. it's the only non-hyped( six axis and ps3 wand.) moition control out there, and thus is least likly to be bashed on this site.
I imagine that Natal will fail, but not because of the flamebait-ish reasons that you've posted.
Now that every company is going to have a motion control device of some sort, each operating differently, companies that make games that will work with these peripherals will have to choose which system they wish to release the game for, as a simple port would be impossible. Developers will either give up on motion control games entirely, or their efforts will be split across 3 consoles. Either way, we all lose.
O ye of little faith. Let's wait for some games to be shown before we flame a product, okay? Plus, Microsoft has stated that they will use both Natal and Regular controllers to control games, so you don't have to use it, so don't complain.
Why has no-one said anything about the other things Natal is supposed to be used for, like signing you in by facial recognition, or video chat, the games for it might not be great, but it has a bunch of other things it can also be used for.
Really now, I don't understand why everyone is reacting in such a way as the above.
I thought, out of all the whining about Natal that I have heard over the forums, that this particular one made a good point about it. Yes, people are going to disagree, and yes the fact that the OP is jumping line a bit considering no-one seems to even really know what the Natal is going to be, but why does everyone suddenly get sarcastic and abusive?
As far as I saw the points he made were;
#1 - Motion controls do not appeal to many people due to their current clumsiness and gimmicky nature. #2 - If Xbox 360 uses the Natal as a primary median between the Gamer and the Game, it will chase away the aforementioned people that the Xbox 360 attracted due to it being a nuisance.
While it is rather presumptuous that Microsoft will make Natal standard on whatever-the-hell-it-does-into-console on completely unfounded guesses, why does that suddenly label the OP as some kind of troll?
As much fun as it is to mock the whole 'hardcore vs. casual' theme running through the first post, it's just as pathetic watching people try to one-up each other over the internet through the use of playground-simplistic and unoriginal insults.
Extra Punctuation
Experienced Points
MovieBob: Intermission
First Person
Loading Time
Miracle of Sound: Encore
Hexproof
Ask Dr Mark
Backchat
Drinking Games
Escape to the Movies
Escapecraft
Escapist Podcast
Feed Dump
GinxTV
Jimquisition
LoadingReadyRun
Meatbag and Co
Media Sandwich
Miracle of Sound
No Right Answer
Pro-Gamer Gauntlet
Reviews
Tales from the Table
The Big Picture
The Escapist Presents
Trailers
Unskippable
Zero Punctuation
The Darkness II Review
Reckoning Review
Exodus Review
Final Fantasy XIII-2 Review
Scarygirl Review
Amy Review
Critical Miss
Name Game
I need to vent this...
Every person I know who owns a Wii barely plays it anymore. Every household of casuals I know who bought a Wii because of Wii Sports never touches the thing these days.
I used to defend the Wii to a Gamestop employee I know, but more and more, I lose the arguments, especially after the employee points out that tons of Wiis are being traded in on a regular basis. Why? The kids got bored with it. In the long run, it turns out that the novelty wears off and people would just prefer to sit idle and play their games without having to flail all over the place.
Yes, I feel the Wii's motion control had a great deal of potential, but it's potential that few if any devs aspired to. I can't recall a game after Wii Sports that REALLY sold the concept of motion control by using it to add depth to a game instead of just adding waggle (I don't count pointer games because it's basically just mouse functionality). Here we are, three years later, and motion control is basically sitting dead in the water.
But Natal REALLY scares me, because MS only has two options when they release it:
1. Release it as an add-on to the 360, inevitably dooming it to failure as few devs will make games for an optional peripheral (the same problem Wii Motion Plus will no doubt face).
2. Release it as the primary means of interface for the Xbox720 and rebrand the whole thing for casuals. If MS gives devs an option to not support it, they probably won't, so they'll need to force devs to incorporate Natal features and screw over the majority of the hardcore fanbase who enjoy games with depth.
The only thing that makes marathon gaming sessions (the kind that we all know and love) actually possible is the fact that all it takes is ever so slight tensing of the finger tendons (or pivoting of the wrist with a mouse) to do so. That's all the energy output it requires to play a long, in-depth game.
Remove the controller and EVERY command must be a gesture. Is Natal going to sense when I slightly move my index finger to pull a trigger in a FPS? Doubtful. For that matter, how am I going to aim at an enemy while strafing to the left, switching weapons and jumping, all at the same time? That's something that most FPSes require a player to be able to do in order to play effectively.
Am I going to lean my whole body to the left while pointing my left index finger at the screen like a gun, pumping my right arm to change weapons and jumping up and down to make my character jump? Answer to a rhetorical question: I sure as hell won't, and neither will any other FPS player.
Most people might not see the danger here, but MS will inevitably need to push Natal onto developers in SOME fashion in order to ensure that good games are made for it. Otherwise, they risk being in the same boat as Nintendo where they've personally made some decent motion-controlled games while most other devs have only made crappy, waggle-ridden garbage for the system.
I get a headache just thinking about it. Sure, I'm probably overreacting, but MS is (was) the last bastion of hardcore console gaming.
EDIT: Yes, I'd love to believe this won't affect gaming, but think about it: MS has poured millions upon millions into R&D on Natal (and is still pouring more into it, no doubt). Does anyone think they're just going to launch it, see a negative reaction and then slink away from it in shame? No, they're going to stick with it, even if that does mean making Natal-ready games the standard.
EDIT2: Yes, I have a PS3 and it has a lot going for it right now, but http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/06/02/sony.ps3.motion.wand/
EDIT3: I'd like people to do some serious consideration of the word "potential" because I hear it an awful lot. But here's the thing, I heard it an awful lot back before the Wii came out and everyone was talking about how motion control could take games in new and exciting directions.
Why do people think Natal will be any different? At least with the Wii, you have controllers with buttons, making the system a hybrid of motion control and standard controls so developers wouldn't be forced to go full on into motion controls. What's the end result? Waggle. Sure, devs COULD have used the motion sensors in conjunction with the buttons on the controller to add layers of depth to the game, but no, we didn't get that.
The "potential" of Wii motion control is so unrealized that Nintendo has felt the need to release WMP to hopefully convince developers to try something interesting with it.
So, no, there is no "potential" with Natal and what developers will do with it. If developers were itching to abandon archaic controllers, they'd have been like pigs in slop when it came to the Wii. The Wii is cheaper to develop for due to not needing HD graphics AND it has a larger install base by 20 million units. If that wasn't enough, there's always WiiWare where you can test a game concept with little worry about recouping losses on printing discs.
And yet, we haven't seen these bold, experimental games from developers. For the most part, all we get are shallow, mini-game, waggle-fests and the occasional rare gem like Little King's Story (which uses zero motion control).
Explain to me why developers who could work with incredibly low risk on the Wii to create something new and unique decided not to, yet we expect these same developers to jump at the chance to make full-body waggle games on Natal.