Best of Show:
Devil May Cry (series)
28.5% (76)
28.5% (76)
God of War (series)
35.6% (95)
35.6% (95)
Ninja Gaiden (series)
7.1% (19)
7.1% (19)
Bayonetta
12% (32)
12% (32)
Dante's Inferno
5.6% (15)
5.6% (15)
Darksiders
4.1% (11)
4.1% (11)
Conan
2.2% (6)
2.2% (6)
Other (Please List)
2.6% (7)
2.6% (7)
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Poll: God of Bayontetta's Darksider Gaiden Inferno May Cry

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Okay, so it's nothing new to copy game design with your own art direction. Dev's have been doing it for years for sure. You can look back to the arcade old side-scroller beat 'em up's (Final Fight, et. al.) or various other genres since the dawn of gaming.

The interesting thing is now we're creating genre's based on games. Devil May Cry (ironically intended to be the next installment of Resident Evil) seemed to have created an entire genre of games that copy the mechanics nearly verbatim. Combos, power orbs, frantic buttonmashy gameplay, larger than life boss fights, weapon upgrades... it seems that tons of games have copied the Devil May Cry gameplay down to the most minute detail. What's even stranger is that most of the credit for this genre seems to have gone to God of War which came out nearly four years AFTER Devil May Cry and rips off it directly in more ways than I can count.

So the question remains I suppose, should we be calling out developers on their unoriginality, or simply accept that Devil May Cry established a framework by which developers ranging from relative unknowns like Visceral Games (Dante's Inferno) to behemoths such as Team Ninja (Ninja Gaiden) can tell their story?

If you look at history, we used to compare games like Super Mario World and Sonic the Hedgehog, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat, but those games have such extreme differences between them that it's easy to tell when you're playing one and not the other. With the Devil May Cry style of games, you could literally interchange the protagonists without confusing the gameplay in the slightest.

I'm guessing the general consensus based on sales figures is that we're totally fine with this as a gaming community... but doesn't it just make you feel kind of awkward?

Hmm, I wouldn't say thats actually true.

I'll use Devil May Cry and Bayonetta. The fact its made by some of the same guys, and is allegedly something similar is a load of rubbish - effectively, Bayonetta is a poor, slaggy cousin of DMC. The gameplay differences... well, yes, i can see some of your point, apart from the difference in being that DMC actually working properly in that aspect.

I can understand where you're coming from in terms of gameplay, certainly. Plotwise? Totally different ballgame for all of them. Some have understandable plots - as far as you can, I guess - while others you have to ignore for how horrendous or how impossible to understand they are.

Its a simple matter of how you use the art design, and then how you market it in my opinion. Is not every single Call of Duty and Medal of Honour game the same according to your opinion? Its using the same logic as applied to the DMC style after all.

In gameplay your examples are all similar and valid..but when it comes to you saying the DMC started everything..you're talking out of your ass.

SnootyEnglishman:
In gameplay your examples are all similar and valid..but when it comes to you saying the DMC started everything..you're talking out of your ass.

Okay, what game did then?

I don't think Darksiders belongs on this list.

Squiggers:
I can understand where you're coming from in terms of gameplay, certainly. Plotwise? Totally different ballgame for all of them.

I totally agree with that; I wasn't so much commenting on the stories as the idead that Devil May Cry created a sort of "palette" of sorts by which different stories could be told.

Squiggers has it right. Gameplay wise they are all clones, but you can't really say that the storyline has been recycled again and again - except for Dante's Inferno (but that horse has actually started to blister with the flogging I'm giving it, so I will quit there).

God of War is the best of these by far I think. better mechanics that DMC (IMO) and possibly the strongest storyline of them all too.... until i am proved wrong in about 3 weeks.

eels05:
I think the Soul Reaver series could probably make that list.

I could see the correlation, but if you sit down and play Devil May Cry, God of War, Ninja Gaiden and the like in succession, the engine feels so similar, I'd say that Soul Reaver has more of a Tomb Raider-esque feel to it. Possibly because of the developers being the same, I don't know.

It's a tie between Bayonetta and God of War. They play so differently, though.

Batfred:
Squiggers has it right. Gameplay wise they are all clones, but you can't really say that the storyline has been recycled again and again

Again, I don't think I said that the stories were similar... I was merely commenting on whether or not this sort of "Template" is a good thing for games or not.

eels05:
I think the Soul Reaver series could probably make that list.

The gameplay was mediocre at best, you played Soul Reaver for the story. Really a whole different experience.

I chose Conan because it seems completely out of place. lol

Ghostwise:
I chose Conan because it seems completely out of place. lol

Have you played it? Could have been called "Conan of War"... heh.

Although Ninja Gaiden is laid out in a way that resembles DMC, Ninja Gaiden gameplay is one of the furthest from DMC in this list. It's the fastest and probably more diverse in it's gameplay (mostly due to the weapon selection). GoW could same the same too I guess. But some of these games are very far each other. DMC and Bayonetta (same team I think); GoW, Dante's Inferno and Darksiders; Ninja Gaiden by itself. Only thing that these games have in common are their genre's elements. Sure one of these came before the others but doesn't mean that the other owe their success to the first. Ninja Gaiden, GoW, and DMC are VERY different in gameplay and story and, wow, they share their structure (/sarcasm), but so does every FPS and RPG. It's just because of their genre.

Well, I think that there's is really only a limited number of ways you could possibly use a controller (ANY controller, even something as "godly" as Natal suffers from this limitation) before it becomes a detrement to your game. With that in mind, you now have a framework of how any given game is going to function.
For example; if you want to make a shooter, you can choose to make it a third or first person shooter. Once that's chosen, you basicaly have only a few ways of mapping out the gameplay style.
What DMC did was find the great balance of gameplay elements that made this kind of third-person action game work extremely well. Once the developers saw the kind of success that DMC achieved, they tend to gravitate towards using the same stuff whenever they're going to make a game that would be best represented through a third-person action game.

A tie between Bayonetta and Devil May Cry. But DMC wins purely because there's more of it.

Ninja Gaiden, easily. Sure it does nothing overly interesting storywise, but what it does works well. And the gameplay, oh god, the gameplay.. easily the most important aspect of this type of game, and NG does it to perfection. Multiple weapon types that really do totally change the way you play, with no clear "best" choice. Blazing fast speed with extremely fluid and responsive controls. No coddling for button mashers and those who don't bother at least trying to learn the combat system.. which really has nearly enough depth to be at home in a full fledged fighting game. If it weren't for the sometimes flighty camera and the cheap=hard programming of a few of the bosses, it would essentially be perfect.

Anywho, as to the question raised in the OP, I think it is actually quite silly that all of these games get lumped together in the way they are. FPS games are viewed as an entire genre to themselves, but 3rd person actioners are all supposedly inbred clones of eachother. Sure Inferno was a very similar game to GoW, so I think the clone label could apply there to some limited degree, but that should be just about where it ends.

SavingPrincess:

Batfred:
Squiggers has it right. Gameplay wise they are all clones, but you can't really say that the storyline has been recycled again and again

Again, I don't think I said that the stories were similar... I was merely commenting on whether or not this sort of "Template" is a good thing for games or not.

Yeah, your response to Squigger sort of ninja'd me there.

Pingieking:
What DMC did was find the great balance of gameplay elements that made this kind of third-person action game work extremely well. Once the developers saw the kind of success that DMC achieved, they tend to gravitate towards using the same stuff whenever they're going to make a game that would be best represented through a third-person action game.

Gotta love the voice of reason. Thanks!

Okay for those who seem confused, let's break it down.

Here's the Devil May Cry template:

(we'll start more general and get more specific)
- Linear A-B Level Progression
- 3rd Person Semi-Fixed Camera
- Combo Style Ranged/Melee Battle System
- Relative Control Scheme (i.e. Up = up, not Up = Forward)
- 60fps lock (Don't know why but this stands out to me, prolly a visual styling thing, but I know I'm gonna get ripped for mentioning it)
- Orb Collection
- Purchase-Based Upgrade System
- Gameplay Grading System (i.e. Level D - SS)
- Some sort of "Overdrive" Power-Enhancing Mode
- Boobs
- Dash Attacks
- Obnoxiously Large Boss Fights
- Enter Room, Doors seal up, kill all baddies, doors open back up.

The list goes on. This is what I'm talking about. It's a template, and it's blatant. I'm curious if God of War dev's knew they were directly ripping off Devil May Cry (probably since CAPCOM was the publisher in Japan); and as a gaming community are we completely okay with this style of templating?

This goes beyond "Most FPS's are like other FPS's", we're talking very specific gameplay elements and feeling of controls. All of the aformentioned games FEEL like one another... like if they were girls, and Devil May Cry was your girlfriend, she couldn't get mad at you for accidentally sleeping with God of War because they're so similar you may have just been confused and thought it was her to begin with.

God of War wins for me mainly beacause, I'm a sucker for greek mythology and Boobies, that's right I like Boobies.

I've never had so much fun as in Devil May Cry.

Everyone else... just can't compare. Except Ninja Gaiden.

I like my games more difficult.

I'm going to have to go with DMC on this one. It doesn't get nearly as much credit as it deserves.

SavingPrincess:

eels05:
I think the Soul Reaver series could probably make that list.

I could see the correlation, but if you sit down and play Devil May Cry, God of War, Ninja Gaiden and the like in succession, the engine feels so similar, I'd say that Soul Reaver has more of a Tomb Raider-esque feel to it. Possibly because of the developers being the same, I don't know.

I found dante's guns to be more enjoyable than Kratos' Magic. Sure it was far more visceral, but feh, who cares? So there's an added, "Fuck you" button in God of War. Whoopee. At least Dante doesn't look constipated all hte time.

But you can hit back with, "at least kratos doesn't look like a sissy wearing too many belts and I love the magic far more than guns" and I'll just have to say... Well, sure, but the antagonists in Devil may cry were a lot more quaky and Kratos doesn't have a badass brother. But they both took swords to the chest(dante multiple times)

so whatever floats your boat.

When it comes down to it, Devil May Cry and Bayonetta are the top for me. Though Bayonetta does have a much more fun combat system than Devil May Cry's, especially DMC4 in particular. This whole glut of "spectacle fighters" aren't all that bad, but the problem is that we constantly compare them to whichever set the bar first (DMC back in 2001, God of War in 2005, hell, Bayonetta's going to be compared to constantly in 2010), so it's hard to be original in this genre. In this case, I'd say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" considering Visceral Games' attitude in making Dante's Inferno and Sony making God of War. I bet in 10 years we'll be calling things Bayonetta or God of War clones and Devil May Cry will all but evaporated.

Other. i really liked the second lord of the rings game. since i have never found a worthy game of the same vein.

This is a little off topic, you say how all these games are the same then ask us which one is the best.

It's like saying heres 13 different shades of white, which is your favorite?

I would have to say ninja gaiden 'cos DMC's guns were totally useless, bayonetta (demo) is way to sexualized (and whats with double jumping and turning into a butterfly?),never played the rest of them. plus ninja gaiden is quite hard at first, I also accidentally got the symbol tattooed on me ...

SavingPrincess:

Pingieking:
What DMC did was find the great balance of gameplay elements that made this kind of third-person action game work extremely well. Once the developers saw the kind of success that DMC achieved, they tend to gravitate towards using the same stuff whenever they're going to make a game that would be best represented through a third-person action game.

Gotta love the voice of reason. Thanks!

Okay for those who seem confused, let's break it down.

Here's the Devil May Cry template:

(we'll start more general and get more specific)
- Linear A-B Level Progression
- 3rd Person Semi-Fixed Camera
- Combo Style Ranged/Melee Battle System
- Relative Control Scheme (i.e. Up = up, not Up = Forward)
- 60fps lock (Don't know why but this stands out to me, prolly a visual styling thing, but I know I'm gonna get ripped for mentioning it)
- Orb Collection
- Purchase-Based Upgrade System
- Gameplay Grading System (i.e. Level D - SS)
- Some sort of "Overdrive" Power-Enhancing Mode
- Boobs
- Dash Attacks
- Obnoxiously Large Boss Fights
- Enter Room, Doors seal up, kill all baddies, doors open back up.

The list goes on. This is what I'm talking about. It's a template, and it's blatant. I'm curious if God of War dev's knew they were directly ripping off Devil May Cry (probably since CAPCOM was the publisher in Japan); and as a gaming community are we completely okay with this style of templating?

This goes beyond "Most FPS's are like other FPS's", we're talking very specific gameplay elements and feeling of controls. All of the aformentioned games FEEL like one another... like if they were girls, and Devil May Cry was your girlfriend, she couldn't get mad at you for accidentally sleeping with God of War because they're so similar you may have just been confused and thought it was her to begin with.

Every element you list is by no means new. Yes, DMC brought together most of these elements first, but what's your point?
Why not complain about Silent Hill or Eternal Darkness ripping off Resident Evil?
Or Dr. Mario ripping off tetris?

There's nothing to really discuss here.

God of War, and maybe Devil May Cry.
All other's thank you for applying, don't call us, we'll call you.

Erana:
Every element you list is by no means new. Yes, DMC brought together most of these elements first, but what's your point?
Why not complain about Silent Hill or Eternal Darkness ripping off Resident Evil?
Or Dr. Mario ripping off tetris?

There's nothing to really discuss here.

But to bring those elements so consistently together over and over and over again? You can a CLEAR and distinct gameplay difference between ALL of those games you mentioned and would never feel as though they were even based of similar engines, but with the Devil May Clones, they all feel nearly identical with different things to look at; and the point wasn't so much a point as a question, is that okay? We're talking BLATANT rip-off-cloning here, not just the same genre. Read the OP.

I don't really feel that God of War is that similar to DMC. When playing both of those games they just don't feel the same. Not least of all because of God of war is packed full of QTE's and DMC has...well none. And the guns (pea-shooters) in DMC are non-existent in GoW (no the magic does not count), unlike Dante's Inferno where you get some uber cross thing than can decimate any enemy you like. But again that's choc-full of QTE's like GoW. Bayonetta had guns but a little QTE aswell. Then there's Darksiders which is probably most similar to GoW but with a big helping of Zelda thrown in for a kick. I enjoy all these games but they all seem to rip from each other here and there. I'm not too convinced that Gaiden fits in that well...but then I have very limited experience of the Ninja Gaiden games. And lets non forget that Conan game! Ironically I've forgotten it's full title, ha. But that was another game that was just like GoW.

DMC was the original but I did love God of War aswell, because although it was similar it still felt different enough to be original in it's own right. Everything else has just taken bits from these two games in my opinion and attempted to improve them with varying success. Eitherway, bring on the violence! :-D

Actually, the only one I've cared to actually pay for is Dante's Inferno, and I'm loving it. God of War and DMC entertained as well, overall, I'm a big fan of the game style that they have popularized, and getting my favorite work of classical poetry turned into a raging badass-fest with a cross for a weapon makes me squee.

I'm gonna go ahead and say DMC wins.
I've played Bayonetta, which failed terribly. It's laggy, the combos never change(you can master the gameplay in one long loading screen) and no one takes the story or the protagonist seriously. I mean sure, the infinite number of strip teases are nice, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just the bastard child of an amazing game and it failed to live up to it's potential.
Now, God of war and DMC are similar, yes but different enough that I can play the two without having the need to compare. It's like saying Tekken and DOA are the same. They are, in that they're both 3D fighting games but the differences are apparent. GoW is a brutish massacre that quite frankly made me cry over how easy it was. Sure it has power orbs and stuff, but so does Rayman.
Anyway, I think DMC wins purely for the effort put both into the story and the gameplay. The graphics weren't too bad either. Plus it had perhaps some of the most memorable weapons and combo's of any game. We all remeber rocking out on Nevan in DMC 3.

Shouldn't this then include The Bouncer?

Most of the games listed are just an extension or evolution of the beat-em-up genre started long ago (thinking of Double Dragon, River City Ransom, etc). The only difference now is that there are RPG elements (XP, etc) which were really first paired with fighting/beat-em-up games back in Tobal No .1 for the PS1. The whole idea of an action game protagonist progressively gaining abilities through the plot also could be "ripped off" from Mega Man.

Seems like a shaky argument over the sub-genre of a sub-genre.

SavingPrincess:

Erana:
Every element you list is by no means new. Yes, DMC brought together most of these elements first, but what's your point?
Why not complain about Silent Hill or Eternal Darkness ripping off Resident Evil?
Or Dr. Mario ripping off tetris?

There's nothing to really discuss here.

But to bring those elements so consistently together over and over and over again? You can a CLEAR and distinct gameplay difference between ALL of those games you mentioned and would never feel as though they were even based of similar engines, but with the Devil May Clones, they all feel nearly identical with different things to look at; and the point wasn't so much a point as a question, is that okay? We're talking BLATANT rip-off-cloning here, not just the same genre. Read the OP.

"Read the OP" works when someone hasn't read the OP. I have, and all I see is that you're saying, "Look, these peoples cloned DMC."
The closest actual prompt for discussion is, "Which game is the best," "Should we be pointing fingers at developers" or, "Doesn't this make you feel awkward?"
(Yes, those are paraphrases)

None of those make for a good discussion prompt. I'm asking you to refine your OP so that I may actually argue a point.

Oh no...I'd actually managed to wipe the memory of that "weapon" from DMC3 from my memory. Whoever came up with the idea for that guitar needs to be shot, seriously. It's an embaressment to the series. I still can't believe they put it in the finished game, what on earth....sorry I'll stop myself there before this rant gets out of hand. *slaps self across face* There, all better now :-P

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