I am enjoying Final Fantasy 13

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Garak73:

Thaius:

Garak73:

Hope was a whiny brat and no one (including Lightning) set him straight even though she knew that Snow didn't "kill" his mother. They dragged the drama out far too long. I could understand Hope being upset but he should said something to Snow before Snow took off on the bike at the beginning of the game. It played out like a damn soap opera. Lightning should have told him that it was a misunderstanding but instead let him go on torturing the players.

Even if I were to agree that Hope acted like any kid would (I don't), it doesn't make good entertainment to watch. I guess if you like soap operas where they draw out a 5 minute sequence over a month then it works fine but how many gamers are fans of soap operas?

Maybe she didn't purposely let go but neither did Snow let her go.

Again, he was a young kid. He led a rebellion, she joined him and died. For a grieving child looking for some way to understand what happened, that's enough correlation to blame Snow in a desperate attempt to understand the loss of his mother. If you're judging by "entertainment" then no, maybe it's not. But if "entertainment" is more important than quality storytelling, why are you playing Final Fantasy?

As for Lightning, she was what took the conflict to the next level. She herself hated Snow, even before Serah turned to crystal, which is why her anger drove her to encourage and empower Hope. The conflict between characters in FFXIII was rather complex, pitting Lightning and Snow in direct opposition to each other even down to their base personalities (Snow as an optimistic idealist and Lightning as a cynical realist) so that Lightning would, in her hatred of Snow, actually encourage Hope toward his revenge. The character interaction is quite complex and interesting, really. It's not Lightning neglecting to set the brat straight, it's her being blinded by her common hatred of Snow and wrongfully encouraging Hope; this is what her later monologue is all about. It played out like a soap opera only in the way all Japanese stories do: it took a long time, it involved plenty of monologues, and emphasized the characters' turmoil. Difference being that it's actually intricate rather than superficial.

I don't play Final Fantasy for the story, I play for the battle system. In this game both were sorely lacking.

If you play games for the story, you should atleast recognize how badly this game told it's story.

What I was saying is that Hope came off as annoying but Square could have avoided that by letting us see her death from Hope's point of view. We would never hear her say "Get him home" and we would not be able to tell exactly how she fell. Having some doubt about how she died would have helped us feel empathy for Hope. Instead, we just wish he'd shut up because we already know what happened.

I recognize that XIII didn't do very well in terms of its grand narrative. It relied a bit too much on expository reading to explain the story's world (which was actually very interesting) and, in the end, did not make nearly as much of its interesting world and premise as it could have. But the character drama was, in my opinion, some of the best in the series. And I'll take strong character-driven storytelling at the expense of the grand narrative over the opposite (read: Final Fantasy XII) any day. And yes, I do play Final Fantasy for the story. I play video games as a whole for the story.

You can't criticize Hope's drama based on the fact that we knew how it actually happened. This is a character drama, not a mystery story. You may as well criticize Inception for being a terrible romance story. It wasn't about whether or not Snow was responsible, it was about a young boy trying to cope with his mother's death. It doesn't matter that we knew the details of her death, it mattered that he didn't. Our own knowledge is irrelevant; are you actually suggesting that our empathy towards a character be based on knowledge that we have, regardless of whether he does? That doesn't make any sense. Characters feel emotion based on what they know, regardless of what we know.

Defense:
Hope is actually one of the better "emo" characters from Final Fantasy, it's just that people can't stand realistic characters. Seriously, his mom died and he's trying to exact revenge on the person who he has to travel with, who despite being responsible for his mother's death still acts like a child and calls himself a hero. I don't know about you, but I'd be fucking pissed if that happened. I'm not Cooke and Mack, I can't bounce back in a few minutes after a crappy torch lighting minigame considering my mom died.

Honestly, all of the characters are pretty lame at the beginning, but the point of Final Fantasy XIII is character development over anything. Every single character has a significant change in their personality throughout the story.

The story just falls flat on its face at the end, you'll be very disappointed and confused. It's an interesting enough concept and the mythos is quite interesting, but the ending is so nonsensical that even the game script can't follow what's happening.

And honestly, it's an RPG in the slightest sense, if at all. Just because it's a Final Fantasy game doesn't mean it's an RPG. It's like if PopCap made a gritty FPS and everyone called it casual just because PopCap made it.

People who defend characters like Hope and Tidus with the 'they're realistic' argument fail to understand something fundamental about character design and storytelling. Realism does not automatically make a character relatable or interesting. Yes, the fact that Hope spends most of the game moping about his Mom dying and planning revenge against her perceived killer may be a realistic reaction, but it doesn't mean its something that is interesting or worth writing about.

We expect our heroes to be heroic and to have interesting or unexpected reactions to events of the story. A kid mourning the loss of his mother for 12 hours is not necessarily a compelling story, especially considering his mother was just one of thousands killed in what was essentially mass genocide. Also the fact that we witnessed her volunteer for service, willingly risk her life, and sacrifice herself to save Snow. We KNOW that Hope is misdirecting his hate, we KNOW his desire for revenge is misguided, and we're still expected to sympathize with him? His reaction to his Mom's death isn't interesting to me, it just seems childish - like he's throwing a tantrum at Snow.

AcacianLeaves:

Defense:
Hope is actually one of the better "emo" characters from Final Fantasy, it's just that people can't stand realistic characters. Seriously, his mom died and he's trying to exact revenge on the person who he has to travel with, who despite being responsible for his mother's death still acts like a child and calls himself a hero. I don't know about you, but I'd be fucking pissed if that happened. I'm not Cooke and Mack, I can't bounce back in a few minutes after a crappy torch lighting minigame considering my mom died.

Honestly, all of the characters are pretty lame at the beginning, but the point of Final Fantasy XIII is character development over anything. Every single character has a significant change in their personality throughout the story.

The story just falls flat on its face at the end, you'll be very disappointed and confused. It's an interesting enough concept and the mythos is quite interesting, but the ending is so nonsensical that even the game script can't follow what's happening.

And honestly, it's an RPG in the slightest sense, if at all. Just because it's a Final Fantasy game doesn't mean it's an RPG. It's like if PopCap made a gritty FPS and everyone called it casual just because PopCap made it.

People who defend characters like Hope and Tidus with the 'they're realistic' argument fail to understand something fundamental about character design and storytelling. Realism does not automatically make a character relatable or interesting. Yes, the fact that Hope spends most of the game moping about his Mom dying and planning revenge against her perceived killer may be a realistic reaction, but it doesn't mean its something that is interesting or worth writing about.

We expect our heroes to be heroic and to have interesting or unexpected reactions to events of the story. A kid mourning the loss of his mother for 12 hours is not necessarily a compelling story, especially considering his mother was just one of thousands killed in what was essentially mass genocide. Also the fact that we witnessed her volunteer for service, willingly risk her life, and sacrifice herself to save Snow. We KNOW that Hope is misdirecting his hate, we KNOW his desire for revenge is misguided, and we're still expected to sympathize with him? His reaction to his Mom's death isn't interesting to me, it just seems childish - like he's throwing a tantrum at Snow.

Exactly! Also, we can't really care about the loss of his mother either, we didn't even know her. She is introduced and killed quickly at the beginning of the game. It wasn't like with Aeris.

I hate captcha!

I "liked" XIII while I was playing through the game, until the near end (probably around chapter 11 or so) but then my opinion really started going downhill for some probably silly reasons. I have no real issues with the characters or storyline (except for me not having any effing clue as to what things meant or what was going on for the first couple chapters, due to me not reading that Datalog thing) but oh my god did I hate how the endgame went down.

I generally enjoy Final Fantasy because of how when I was younger, I was incredibly amused by the challenge and loads of optional content you could do with a maxed out party, or rather just what you needed to do to GET a maxed out party (like collecting ultimate gear and abilities). I feel that how this was done in XIII was just absolute garbage. To me, XIII's endgame was composed of slaughtering overgrown turtles for 60+ hours. With each fight giving just a CHANCE to get 1 of an item that you needed 30-40+ of. This didn't come off as fun at all to me, and I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea. The turtles weren't challenging (cept the blue ones) so it's not like I enjoyed the fights, it was just the only *real* way to get the funds necessary to progress my party's strength.

So while when I was playing through the game I thought it was great and awesome, and now that I've gotten the Platinum trophy and done everything I could do, I think the game is a steaming pile of shit that has me looking back and asking why I even wasted all that time to begin with. Must have been because I've scored 100% in every other FF to date (aside from X and XI) and something deep down told me to do it for this one too.

Onyx Oblivion:

Sean.Devlin:
I don't mind people enjoying the game, but I fail to grasp the notion that the game becomes good because you're allowed to run about in a plain at some point doing swoosh swoosh swoosh. I'll never play it, it's just morbid fascination.

It doesn't become good then...It become open.

If you still hate it after chapter 4 (about 4 hours in), you're not gonna like it.

I love it. It's now my favorite FF by far.

The combat is immensely satisfying and unique. Toppling the final boss was immensely satisfying after 30 minutes of fighting the second form alone. 3rd form was too easy, though...

Are you trolling? Please tell me you are trolling.

I fought the final boss in FF13 by accident. I had planned to do as much of the Gran Pulse stuff as possible before doing the final boss but had decided to do a little more storyline to break up the monotony. Then suddenly I was watching the end credits. I had no idea that that easy, boring fight was the final boss. I spent more time, deaths, and strategy on mini-bosses in Chapter 6.

AcacianLeaves:

warm slurm:

AcacianLeaves:
The thing is though, it's still much better than any JRPG that's come out on the 360 with the possible exception of Tales of Vesperia. Other JRPGs may have more exploration and character development, but they're so mired in cliches, terrible acting, and bad design decision that FF13 has been a welcome improvement.

Lost Odyssey is the best jRPG this generation and it's on the 360. Sorry that you haven't played it. :)

Edit: wat, you have played it and you think FFXIII is better? Lost Odyssey has fantastic writing for a jRPG, really great voice acting, hardly any cliches (there aren't even any teenage characters, which is the usual way to go with jRPGs - everyone but Cooke and Mack are at least 20+) and the design of everything is gorgeous. Your taste is terrrible.

Not to mention the fact that by the look of your achievements it's obvious you haven't played most of these "bad" jRPGs for more than five minutes.

Lost Odyssey was a travesty. Two of your main characters are children. Not 'children' in the typical JRPG sense but actual fucking 8 year olds. Kaim spent most of the game openly weeping, and people call Squall 'emo'. The main villain was the most bland, dull, Mr. Satan looking doofus I've ever seen in a JRPG. Jansen is exactly the kind of shoe-horned 'comedy relief' that made Jar Jar Binks so unbearable. The game started with an interesting premise but then just went fucking nowhere.

Also the fact that I have those games listed on my profile should be evidence enough that I've played them, I just tend to share most JRPGs with my wife's account. Its nice to know you cared enough about insulting me to do a thorough background check, though.

Yeaaaah, because two minutes to look through someone's played games is totally thorough. And even if you didn't think the story/characters were any good in Lost Odyssey, the TYODs alone make it a thousand times better than FFXIII.

Steve Fidler:

Onyx Oblivion:

Sean.Devlin:
I don't mind people enjoying the game, but I fail to grasp the notion that the game becomes good because you're allowed to run about in a plain at some point doing swoosh swoosh swoosh. I'll never play it, it's just morbid fascination.

It doesn't become good then...It become open.

If you still hate it after chapter 4 (about 4 hours in), you're not gonna like it.

I love it. It's now my favorite FF by far.

The combat is immensely satisfying and unique. Toppling the final boss was immensely satisfying after 30 minutes of fighting the second form alone. 3rd form was too easy, though...

Are you trolling? Please tell me you are trolling.

I fought the final boss in FF13 by accident. I had planned to do as much of the Gran Pulse stuff as possible before doing the final boss but had decided to do a little more storyline to break up the monotony. Then suddenly I was watching the end credits. I had no idea that that easy, boring fight was the final boss. I spent more time, deaths, and strategy on mini-bosses in Chapter 6.

I kinda just rushed to the end. And didn't use a Synergist...Probably could have had an easier time if I used Hope, but his low HP always bothered me.

AcacianLeaves:
People who defend characters like Hope and Tidus with the 'they're realistic' argument fail to understand something fundamental about character design and storytelling. Realism does not automatically make a character relatable or interesting. Yes, the fact that Hope spends most of the game moping about his Mom dying and planning revenge against her perceived killer may be a realistic reaction, but it doesn't mean its something that is interesting or worth writing about.

Realism makes a character more relatable. And it's supposed to be based more off of how he interacts with other characters because of what happened. Yeah, a 15 year old moping over his mom's death for 15 hours isn't fun by itself, but it's more interesting when he has to travel with the person [that he believes is] responsible for his mom's death.

We expect our heroes to be heroic and to have interesting or unexpected reactions to events of the story. A kid mourning the loss of his mother for 12 hours is not necessarily a compelling story, especially considering his mother was just one of thousands killed in what was essentially mass genocide.

Different strokes for different folks. I actually like when my hero acts more like a normal human than an indestructible badass.

Also the fact that we witnessed her volunteer for service, willingly risk her life, and sacrifice herself to save Snow. We KNOW that Hope is misdirecting his hate, we KNOW his desire for revenge is misguided, and we're still expected to sympathize with him? His reaction to his Mom's death isn't interesting to me, it just seems childish - like he's throwing a tantrum at Snow.

People think based off of emotion rather than logic. Snow was still responsible for encouraging her to fight.

And his childish reaction may be due to the fact that he is a child. Snow was still partly responsible for her death, at least in his eyes.

Garak73:
Exactly! Also, we can't really care about the loss of his mother either, we didn't even know her. She is introduced and killed quickly at the beginning of the game. It wasn't like with Aeris.

She wasn't supposed to be like Aeris. Her point was to move the plot forward and nothing else.

I bought it despite people saying it was horrible about 2 weeks after release. They couldn't of prepared me for how horrible the game was. There is not a single solitary good thing about that game other then that it looks nice, and even that is only okay because the actual creative design part of it sucks. Oh what I could of done with that $60...

She wasn't supposed to be like Aeris. Her point was to move the plot forward and nothing else.

Actually, her point was to drive Hope's plot forward but since we don't care about her, it's hard to care about her death or Hope's revenge. Her one liner "Moms are tough" didn't help matters either. Just a poorly told story.

I hate captcha!

Then you are not alone. I found the story to be okay. Not great, but okay. I found most of the characters to be alright (Lightning, Fang and Sazh), and I found the combat to be engaging and strategical. I mean fuck, you can't flop up for a second without a mistake backfiring on you, or despite common interpretation, solely use auto-attack to defeat a foe. It doesn't work. Although I will admit, losing just because your team leader does was rather annoying. Especially against bosses like Barthandelus.

I expect great amounts of flaming for this paragraph, so I shall prepare!

image

/Decoy

Garak73:
Actually, her point was to drive Hope's plot forward but since we don't care about her, it's hard to care about her death or Hope's revenge. Her one liner "Moms are tough" didn't help matters either. Just a poorly told story.

You're not supposed to care about her though. Like you said, it was supposed to move Hope's plot forward.

Even if Square Enix had the worst story writers and directors ever(which is actually partly true since Motomu Toriyama directed this), they would know that you wouldn't care about a character that dies in 30 minutes.

But yes, that was a horrible one liner. The game is filled with them.

Defense:

Garak73:
Actually, her point was to drive Hope's plot forward but since we don't care about her, it's hard to care about her death or Hope's revenge. Her one liner "Moms are tough" didn't help matters either. Just a poorly told story.

You're not supposed to care about her though. Like you said, it was supposed to move Hope's plot forward.

Even if Square Enix had the worst story writers and directors ever(which is actually partly true since Motomu Toriyama directed this), they would know that you wouldn't care about a character that dies in 30 minutes.

But yes, that was a horrible one liner. The game is filled with them.

Caring about Hope's motives is dependent on caring about his mothers death, IMO.

Anyway, I think the whole purpose of the second game is to give "telling a good story" another try. I remember some headline about some exec at SE saying the story was told poorly and that if given another chance (a sequel) they could fix that. Well, the sequel is coming.

Personally, I think it's kind of amusing that of all of the side stories that people could argue over, It's Hope's. Why not go for a change of pace and argue about Sahz's. I mean, since he's a stereotypical black guy with the "Humorous" one-liners, some people must hate him, while others love him.(Sarcastic paragraph)

PS. I wrote argue, and I mean argue, since the debate of it has long since died.

PPS. I did enjoy the entire game, and all of the characters, feel free to flame me for it.

Dorkamongus:
Personally, I think it's kind of amusing that of all of the side stories that people could argue over, It's Hope's. Why not go for a change of pace and argue about Sahz's. I mean, since he's a stereotypical black guy with the "Humorous" one-liners, some people must hate him, while others love him.(Sarcastic paragraph)

PS. I wrote argue, and I mean argue, since the debate of it has long since died.

PPS. I did enjoy the entire game, and all of the characters, feel free to flame me for it.

Sazh was the best character in the game which is odd because in the previews he was "the dude with a chocobo living in his afro". In fact, he was the least annoying character, I just wish he had killed Vanille.

Garak73:

Dorkamongus:
Personally, I think it's kind of amusing that of all of the side stories that people could argue over, It's Hope's. Why not go for a change of pace and argue about Sahz's. I mean, since he's a stereotypical black guy with the "Humorous" one-liners, some people must hate him, while others love him.(Sarcastic paragraph)

PS. I wrote argue, and I mean argue, since the debate of it has long since died.

PPS. I did enjoy the entire game, and all of the characters, feel free to flame me for it.

Sazh was the best character in the game which is odd because in the previews he was "the dude with a chocobo living in his afro". In fact, he was the least annoying character, I just wish he had killed Vanille.

I'm like 15 hours in and my wife and I keep shouting at the screen "WHY DO YOU HAVE A CHICK LIVING IN YOUR HAIR?!?!"

Also he isn't the worst black character in Square's history, but he is pretty bad. It's the kind of character someone would write if everything they knew about black people they learned from 70s blaxploitation. Its like he was lifted directly from Richard Pryor's character in Superman 3.

I always wonder when Square includes ethnicities in their games. Where are the rest of the black people? Where are the rest of the people with Australian accents?

Here's my two cents:

I just lost interest at about, I think, Chapter 12. If I recall. Whichever chapter gives you access to the fairly open, non-linear map where you can start doing missions.

Here's my problem: I was pretty bored overall with the game until I hit that point. At least the linearity of the game focused me enough on a clear goal that I could pave forward despite my boredom. As soon as I realized that the game was about to give me twenty different goals to complete (in the form of 19 missions to 5-star and 1 path to progress forward) I sort of just said "Screw it". I knew I'd have to grind up myself some levels and I couldn't face the prospect of doing so given my current opinion of it.

Basically, I recognized that the combat system was fairly shallow and it wasn't going to get much better, and the story itself just wasn't interesting me.

You see, I didn't want to sit there facing jellies and penguin-bird-things all day, so I figured I'd take on some Wolves or Greater Beast(-y thingies). Of course, the game has absolutely no penalty for failing over and over, so I figured I'd master taking on extremely tough enemies until I could 5-star them. Of course, its more luck than not, but it's doable given the right timing if you can just stagger the right enemies at the right time. Chain-launch the Greater Beasts and you can take them out before they stand and heal themselves.

On one hand the battle system creates an illusion of complexity, but on the other its just a glorified "Simon Says" game. Simon says, switch to MED/MED/SEN. Simon says, switch to SAB/SYN/SEN. Simon says, switch to COM/RAV/RAV. Simon says, switch to RAV/RAV/RAV. Simon says, switch to COM/RAV/SEN. To make sure of the job, of course, be sure to switch paradigms every ten seconds so your ATB bar gets a free refill, and auto-battle by default since no human can input commands as fast as the computer can, unless it's just to spam a single move (blitz-blitz-blitz). Even if you know the enemy is weak to lightning but don't have it scanned, you're wasting valuable time where your ATB bar doesn't fill while you sit there dilly-dallying.

You know exactly how to win every battle at the outset, and given a particularly tough battle, victory is a combination of luck (the enemy doesn't hit you anything particularly dangerous) and timing. 5-staring battles underleveled is basically a "sprint for the finish, all or nothing, no healer or buffs" dash where you retry the moment anything goes wrong. 5-starring battles overleveled is a combination of (ab)using particular equipment that doesn't increase the maximum time... and a "sprint for the finish, all or nothing, no healer or buffs" dash.

Was there a sweet spot I missed? Perhaps. Sometimes buffs are important: your default position is usually "buffs on", but most battles are 5-starred without them once your timing is down.

Overall, the story itself has its ups and downs. Vanille is everyones least favorite 21-year-old voice actor trying to play a 14-year-old sounding girl (that's really 19 years old according to the manual). The other characters do develop somewhat: Snow warms to the player with his badass "fall fifty feet then carry someone on his back five miles moment", Hope goes through an uplifting transition but only really because that's the only direction he could have gone (it's not like you could have made him more whiny and annoying), Sazh has a mini-struggle beneath his calm and positive demeanor... but the female cast is lacking. Vanille is pure eye-candy with a backstory added for the sake of completeness, Fang has no real role (so far), and Lightning just sort of stays aloof except for one moment when she cries to Hope about her feelings.

The story is still a definite improvement over 12, which just gave each character an intro and a little motivation for joining the group, and then went off in some long-winded plot tangent that was completely irrelevant as far as most of the characters were concerned or bothered to express. I suppose I'm used to traditional Final Fantasy where the hero gets their spotlight throughout the story, and secondary characters get a bit of an introduction as they are introduced and some development along the way in the form of dialogue and commentary, with some extras and optionals thrown in to flesh them out. That was a fair way to do things: from what I see, 13 gives the characters some more introduction and some meaningful development along the way, but its sandwiched in the beginning and middle. The old FFs were episodic in a sense: they created their main interaction between characters by introducing some sort of small challenge or goal in the context of a larger goal, and having the characters talk about it and share their opinions as they overcome it. This allowed them to actually develop as characters.

This one splits up the characters and has them do some really exciting things right away, but I find myself missing the moments like the Black Mage village of FF9 or being trapped in the Casino in FF7: a change in scenery, pace, and mechanics. More memorable are the moments where you return to an area you previously visited and do things even more exciting, like in FF7: going back into that portside town where you originally took the boat ride and being captured/trying to escape, or returning to Midgar and fighting the Weapon.

FF13 does away with the "overall, fairly clear goal" and "episodic challenges" that you see in FF7 and FF9 and goes for a more "changing or unknown villain" and "fairly linear path" method of FF8 and FF12. The overall motivation is fairly unclear, and even the protagonists are slightly confused as to what to do, so the game has to give you a straight line from A to B to walk along in order to keep you motivated. Where FF7 was well-paced, with the episodic challenges varying in importance and climaxing at about every half disc, FF13 is almost a roller-coaster ride that always falls down: by the end of it you're bored. It just rises and rises in impact and significance and almost never slows down for a moment: you really have to give the player a reference to compare to, a moment in the story where things are slow and lackadaisical, or funny and joyous, for those action-packed or tragic moments to hit hard.

FF13 just struggles at basic storytelling conventions where its predecessors excelled or at least functioned (depending on who you talk to), and when the gameplay isn't much it's hard to appreciate it.

In any case, I'm bored of FF13, and I probably won't get back to it for a while.

DjinnFor:
Here's my two cents:

Just wanted to say I more or less agree with your assessment here, but I get the feeling that Lightning and the other female characters may get their moment to shine later on in the story. The combat is admittedly simple for a current-generation turn-based RPG, but I guess I'm at a point where I'm okay with sitting back and letting the game do most of the work (I'm on a lot of medication right now that would otherwise slow my reaction time and cause me many frustrating deaths in other games).

I think that if you get in the right mood, FF13 can be a pretty fun game. It will never be a classic, but in my mind its at least a partial redemption from FFX and FFXII, in that it at least feels like a proper FF entry.

Stupid fanboy concept I don't actually believe go!

Final Fantasy XIII's main problem is that the developers took their story too seriously and, in doing so, gave it too significant an impact on the gameplay. The entire game is meant to reflect the helplessness of the L'Cie, how they are trapped heading towards an inescapable destiny which they cannot avoid - except by giving up completely. A path is laid before them and they are powerless to do anything but follow it. Essentially the entire game is laid out as though it were part of the antagonist's plan.

This is the great irony of Final Fantasy XIII: the hostile reaction is exactly what it was designed to provoke.

Think about it: What is the antagonist's goal?

To plunge the L'Cie into great despair, great anger. It wants to be hated, to take the full force of the rage of the rats trapped on the path it has laid out for them - or to force them to give up entirely and try again with future candidates.

(No, this is not an idea I seriously believe but I think there is some sliver of truth in it)

Yeah I enjoyed it at first too...

My main problems are:

1. Square already did an awesome combat system that worked in Kingdom hearts. Why not here?
2.Where's my airship? I like exploring!
3. FF never really translated well to full cgi and voice acting. This one was the worst offender for me
4. No, seriously, where the fuck's my airship!? I miss being able to grind at your leisure where ever you wanted to. I felt like I had no freedom.
5. No memorable villain to speak of. Story wasn't as compelling as it should have been.

AcacianLeaves:

9_6:

AcacianLeaves:
The thing is though, it's still much better than any JRPG that's come out on the 360 with the possible exception of Tales of Vesperia. Other JRPGs may have more exploration and character development, but they're so mired in cliches, terrible acting, and bad design decision that FF13 has been a welcome improvement.

Well the 360 isn't exactly known for its vast selection of awesome jrpgs...

Neither is the PS3 or Wii, for that matter. The Xbox 360 is, despite its still sad collection, the best current generation console for JRPGs.

Thank God for handhelds, at least.

I'm gonna disagree and say that the Ps3 is much better, aside from the fact that Namco Bandai are evil and enjoy releasing a better version of Tales of Vesperia on Ps3 in Japan alone, almost all of the worthwhile 360 JRPGs are multiplatform and with the inclusion of Valkyria Chronicles and Demon's Souls the Ps3 is much better, I'm almost certain there are other JRPGs I'm missing that are very much worth playing. But I shall agree that this gen isn't great for the genre so far.

warm slurm:

AcacianLeaves:

warm slurm:

Lost Odyssey is the best jRPG this generation and it's on the 360. Sorry that you haven't played it. :)

Edit: wat, you have played it and you think FFXIII is better? Lost Odyssey has fantastic writing for a jRPG, really great voice acting, hardly any cliches (there aren't even any teenage characters, which is the usual way to go with jRPGs - everyone but Cooke and Mack are at least 20+) and the design of everything is gorgeous. Your taste is terrrible.

Not to mention the fact that by the look of your achievements it's obvious you haven't played most of these "bad" jRPGs for more than five minutes.

Lost Odyssey was a travesty. Two of your main characters are children. Not 'children' in the typical JRPG sense but actual fucking 8 year olds. Kaim spent most of the game openly weeping, and people call Squall 'emo'. The main villain was the most bland, dull, Mr. Satan looking doofus I've ever seen in a JRPG. Jansen is exactly the kind of shoe-horned 'comedy relief' that made Jar Jar Binks so unbearable. The game started with an interesting premise but then just went fucking nowhere.

Also the fact that I have those games listed on my profile should be evidence enough that I've played them, I just tend to share most JRPGs with my wife's account. Its nice to know you cared enough about insulting me to do a thorough background check, though.

Yeaaaah, because two minutes to look through someone's played games is totally thorough. And even if you didn't think the story/characters were any good in Lost Odyssey, the TYODs alone make it a thousand times better than FFXIII.

I also agree that FFXIII is better than LO, I was incredibly impressed by TYODs but there was nothing else that game actually delivered on. The idea was pretty good and I actually love it in games where they force you to use certain characters it improves the narrative in the game, for instance where you just have to use Cooke and Mack on that railway line, that bit was brilliant, so disk 3 and thousand year of dreams was brilliant. In FFXIII all the characters where actually some of the best written characters in the medium including some TV and films, the battle system was fun not to mention that the graphics and soundtrack are some of the best things I've ever seen in gaming.

Veldt Falsetto:
I also agree that FFXIII is better than LO, I was incredibly impressed by TYODs but there was nothing else that game actually delivered on. The idea was pretty good and I actually love it in games where they force you to use certain characters it improves the narrative in the game, for instance where you just have to use Cooke and Mack on that railway line, that bit was brilliant, so disk 3 and thousand year of dreams was brilliant. In FFXIII all the characters where actually some of the best written characters in the medium including some TV and films, the battle system was fun not to mention that the graphics and soundtrack are some of the best things I've ever seen in gaming.

Maybe you should play it again, then, if you don't think it delivered in any other way. All the characters are well written, the "kid" characters aren't annoying as per usual, the story is fantastic and it takes a cliche (amnesia) and does something great with it. I don't know why you think Lost Odyssey didn't deliver but FFXIII did... :/

FFXIII's characters (well, Hope, even though everybody hates him) are pretty good, but you're talking out of your ass if you think they're some of the best in video games. Pretty much every other Final Fantasy trumps FFXIII in character development/characterisation, and not to mention other games, too. Graphics were awesome but the soundtrack was okay but doesn't hold a candle to Nobuo's stuff.

I'm on the last chapter and I'm enjoying the game, although some enemies are really ticking me off. FFXIII may not be as good as Square's classics, but it's still a competent entry in the series. Hopefully Versus-XIII or XIII-2 will fix the little, niggling flaws.
Also, I'm hoping Square will come up with a new IP sometime soon, or revisit an old series. take a break from FF and KH. They've got an immensely rich history of role-playing classics, they can afford to change things up a bit.

I love FF13, good on you sir for forming you're own opinion about the game instead of parroting what everyone else is saying. Not saying people can't dislike it but they're way to many people saying it was awful without playing it/giving it a chance.

I liked it enough to want to know what happens next, which is why is genuinely looking forward to FFXIII-2. It was just a little too linear for me.

Is it just me or does it just seems trendy to hate Final Fantasy XIII at the moment?

AcacianLeaves:

9_6:

AcacianLeaves:
The thing is though, it's still much better than any JRPG that's come out on the 360 with the possible exception of Tales of Vesperia. Other JRPGs may have more exploration and character development, but they're so mired in cliches, terrible acting, and bad design decision that FF13 has been a welcome improvement.

Well the 360 isn't exactly known for its vast selection of awesome jrpgs...

Neither is the PS3 or Wii, for that matter. The Xbox 360 is, despite its still sad collection, the best current generation console for JRPGs.

Thank God for handhelds, at least.

Saying that I have to assume that when you talk about JRPGs you mean JRPGs that aren't Japanese.

I liked FF XIII very much sure they made some mistakes with the tutorial but at least it made sense in the world I mean there is a reason for it when you get stuff not just everything at once
and I prefer this title to FF7 I played it 2 years ago and I have to say I was very bored when I came to the second disc something that never happened to me with Final Fantasy games except FF XII but then again I really hate the guts of that title^^ I loved FF VIII and FF X too just like FF VI, FF IX was only ok though and I have yet to play FF X-2

really interesting is that Tidus seemed never obnoxious to me except when it comes to blitzball
but Hope and Vaan are just annoying to me but they do feel authentic which is more important to me than whether I like them or not

on the corridor problem... doesn't really bother me as it makes sense also it's not nearly as much later on Pulse (which also makes sense to me) still though I'm just playing through FFX again and am at zanarkand this thread made me ponder... FF X is as much linear corridors as FF XIII the only difference is sometimes they throw you a bone like in kilika forest where you have a few paths but no real alternatives^^
and now I'm asking why do so many people suddenly find it horrible to walk a nearly linear path?

the tales games and FF XII FF VIII are the only really interesting ones in non linear paths
FF VII does better than most but still very limited

also I must say the datalogs were mostly useless except for some information on not strictly story stuff, then again I had no problems understanding what was going on without them and now I wonder why so many make a fuzz about them

AcacianLeaves:
People who defend characters like Hope and Tidus with the 'they're realistic' argument fail to understand something fundamental about character design and storytelling. Realism does not automatically make a character relatable or interesting. Yes, the fact that Hope spends most of the game moping about his Mom dying and planning revenge against her perceived killer may be a realistic reaction, but it doesn't mean its something that is interesting or worth writing about.

We expect our heroes to be heroic and to have interesting or unexpected reactions to events of the story. A kid mourning the loss of his mother for 12 hours is not necessarily a compelling story, especially considering his mother was just one of thousands killed in what was essentially mass genocide. Also the fact that we witnessed her volunteer for service, willingly risk her life, and sacrifice herself to save Snow. We KNOW that Hope is misdirecting his hate, we KNOW his desire for revenge is misguided, and we're still expected to sympathize with him? His reaction to his Mom's death isn't interesting to me, it just seems childish - like he's throwing a tantrum at Snow.

Because nothing makes better story telling than Mary Sues who lack any semblance of human emotion. Steven Seagal characters are, of course, the pinnacle of character design. No flaws, no emotion, all ass kicking all the time.

It's interesting seeing people call characters like Tidus and Hope emo. Emo-ness requires disproportionate angst given the circumstance while they have legitimate reasons to act like they do.
In fact, the people who criticize them have probably shown more angst over far less.
Which calls into question whether it bothers players because it calls attention to how 'emo' they themselves are in comparison.

It's also interesting that your reasoning for your lack of sympathizing with him shows an inability to empathize.
Empathy requires the ability to divorce yourself from your own perspective and look at events as the other person understands them which you've demonstrated an inability to do in your criticism of Hope's misunderstanding of the situation.

Perhaps you have difficulty relating to such characters, but others find it jarring when characters seem borderline sociopathic when it comes to the degree that they are emotionally numb to the events transpiring around them.
Snow was easily more obnoxious and even more childish than Hope given his complete disregard for the loss of life and his joyful insistence upon himself being a hero.

LokiArchetype:

AcacianLeaves:
People who defend characters like Hope and Tidus with the 'they're realistic' argument fail to understand something fundamental about character design and storytelling. Realism does not automatically make a character relatable or interesting. Yes, the fact that Hope spends most of the game moping about his Mom dying and planning revenge against her perceived killer may be a realistic reaction, but it doesn't mean its something that is interesting or worth writing about.

We expect our heroes to be heroic and to have interesting or unexpected reactions to events of the story. A kid mourning the loss of his mother for 12 hours is not necessarily a compelling story, especially considering his mother was just one of thousands killed in what was essentially mass genocide. Also the fact that we witnessed her volunteer for service, willingly risk her life, and sacrifice herself to save Snow. We KNOW that Hope is misdirecting his hate, we KNOW his desire for revenge is misguided, and we're still expected to sympathize with him? His reaction to his Mom's death isn't interesting to me, it just seems childish - like he's throwing a tantrum at Snow.

Because nothing makes better story telling than Mary Sues who lack any semblance of human emotion. Steven Seagal characters are, of course, the pinnacle of character design. No flaws, no emotion, all ass kicking all the time.

It's interesting seeing people call characters like Tidus and Hope emo. Emo-ness requires disproportionate angst given the circumstance while they have legitimate reasons to act like they do.
In fact, the people who criticize them have probably shown more angst over far less.
Which calls into question whether it bothers players because it calls attention to how 'emo' they themselves are in comparison.

It's also interesting that your reasoning for your lack of sympathizing with him shows an inability to empathize.
Empathy requires the ability to divorce yourself from your own perspective and look at events as the other person understands them which you've demonstrated an inability to do in your criticism of Hope's misunderstanding of the situation.

Perhaps you have difficulty relating to such characters, but others find it jarring when characters seem borderline sociopathic when it comes to the degree that they are emotionally numb to the events transpiring around them.
Snow was easily more obnoxious and even more childish than Hope given his complete disregard for the loss of life and his joyful insistence upon himself being a hero.

"You don't like Hope or Tidus, you must only want American hyper-masculine action heroes in your stories!"

Why does everyone create this straw man when I argue against overly emotional male characters? The problem isn't that they have emotions, the problem is the way that they express those emotions is just bad writing, realistic or not. I love characters that have a myriad of emotional responses to their situation, going through the entire spectrum of the human condition throughout a well-told story. Tidus and Hope do not do this.

A great example in the FF series is Cloud (Cloud from the game, not the whiner from AC). He starts the story arrogant and over-confident, uncaring of others and basically just in it for the money and the fight. When he meets Aeris, he softens up and recalls some kind of subconscious affection for her. He experiences embarrassment, humor, and vulnerability with her. He experiences mourning and loss. Her starts developing friendships and allegiances. He experiences anger and hatred at Shin-Ra and Sephiroth. He has a psychological melt-down and develops a bond with Tifa. He has an identity crisis. Finally he accepts his responsibility and the help of his friends. That is a full character arc.

Hope and Tidus do not do this. So far Hope is a one-note character. He doesn't have several reactions to his varying situation, he has one emotion and one character note - My Mom died and it's all Snow's fault! He doesn't react to the other characters in the story - though Vanille and Lightning both contribute greatly to his 'cause'. He doesn't seem to have anything to say about the Sanctum, being a l'Cie, the overall war that's going on, nothing. His only focus is getting revenge on Snow (who is admittedly an ass). His only emotional response is angsty self-pity. It would be different if he were like Hamlet and actively ignored the rest of the story due to his focus on revenge, but he's not written that way. He just doesn't have any dialogue written for him that isn't moaning about his Mom or twitching angrily at Snow.

Squall is another particularly bad example. Squall is introverted and self-loathing. He begins the game as introverted and self-loathing, and the only development is by the end of the game he's more accepting of himself. Its a one-note character arc, and it makes for bad storytelling.

Tidus is easier. Tidus has Daddy issues, and by the end of the game he has less Daddy issues.

For some great characters that actually seem human due to the complexity of their emotional content and the fact that they rise up to the occasion of the story, see (and feel free to call me out if you disagree): Zidane from FF9, Ashley Riot from Vagrant Story, Lenneth from Valkyrie Profile, Aya Brea from Parasite Eve, Locke from FF6 (pretty much every character from FF6, really), Ramza and Delita from Final Fantasy Tactics, etc.

EDIT: Oh and a good example within FF13 is Lightning. She's a mourning sister, an angry sister-in-law, a stoic and proud soldier, and she shows sympathy and the desire to protect Hope. She's a multi-faceted character, and I wish the game would focus more on her rather than on the Hope/Snow thing already.

brainless_fps_player:
Yeah I enjoyed it at first too...

My main problems are:

1. Square already did an awesome combat system that worked in Kingdom hearts. Why not here?
2.Where's my airship? I like exploring!
3. FF never really translated well to full cgi and voice acting. This one was the worst offender for me
4. No, seriously, where the fuck's my airship!? I miss being able to grind at your leisure where ever you wanted to. I felt like I had no freedom.
5. No memorable villain to speak of. Story wasn't as compelling as it should have been.

You can blame FFX for most of those problems. I know I do.

Although I can see that the lack of a villain is going to be a real problem. Unless someone memorable shows up soon, that's going to be a major strike against the game.

AcacianLeaves:

I always wonder when Square includes ethnicities in their games. Where are the rest of the black people? Where are the rest of the people with Australian accents?

I heard that not only will Sam Worthington be a voice actor in FFXV, but that he's also going to be one of the main writers.

warm slurm:

Veldt Falsetto:
I also agree that FFXIII is better than LO, I was incredibly impressed by TYODs but there was nothing else that game actually delivered on. The idea was pretty good and I actually love it in games where they force you to use certain characters it improves the narrative in the game, for instance where you just have to use Cooke and Mack on that railway line, that bit was brilliant, so disk 3 and thousand year of dreams was brilliant. In FFXIII all the characters where actually some of the best written characters in the medium including some TV and films, the battle system was fun not to mention that the graphics and soundtrack are some of the best things I've ever seen in gaming.

Maybe you should play it again, then, if you don't think it delivered in any other way. All the characters are well written, the "kid" characters aren't annoying as per usual, the story is fantastic and it takes a cliche (amnesia) and does something great with it. I don't know why you think Lost Odyssey didn't deliver but FFXIII did... :/

FFXIII's characters (well, Hope, even though everybody hates him) are pretty good, but you're talking out of your ass if you think they're some of the best in video games. Pretty much every other Final Fantasy trumps FFXIII in character development/characterisation, and not to mention other games, too. Graphics were awesome but the soundtrack was okay but doesn't hold a candle to Nobuo's stuff.

Not all of them, Kaim is pretty good and also Seth but the rest seem to be very cliche though I will agree that Cooke and Mack aren't annoying as per usual kid characters, they were pretty much useless. In my eyes Lost Odyssey didn't have an enthralling story, like I said the thousand years of dreams were brilliant but with the actual game I felt it was pretty much recycled stuff but lacking the charm and masterful design of other games that take the same formula whereas FFXIII wasn't perfect on the gameplay front I felt that it delivered in every other area but even though the battle system and world map weren't as good as it could be it was still that bit different to put it ahead of the game.

Character wise I felt that every character had amazing development in XIII, especially Snow and Hope. Saying pretty much every Final Fantasy trumps XIII in characters is a lie, apart from 6 (which in my eyes does it best) all of the NES/SNES games do very little in way of development and focus on how established characters deal with the situation, VII has development of 3 characters and the rest fall by the wayside, VIII has very little development unless it's Squall, skipping IX because I haven't played it much, X has a lot of development within the main group although it is pretty obvious development it works wonderfully though none of the characters are all that relatable, XII has very little character development and is more about the world and it's politics. XIII has relatable characters that start off dull, uninteresting and ordinary and turn into this colourful party of individually strong heroes that have overcome their own personal trials, every single one of them has relatable qualities and every single one of them (except maybe Fang) has as much depth as any film character, they are all well performed and you could do a very in depth essay on any one of their characters or even all of the main group and come out with an interesting work.

Not to say XIII doesn't have problems, it does, it has many. But in my eyes its this gen's best JRPG until Versus XIII comes out to compete (because that looks like it'll blitz XIII).

I got it because it was so different to other Final Fantasy's. I disliked 7 when I tried it and I also disliked 10 (my first FF game) and 12 but I did quite enjoy 13. As for why I disliked 7, I was a nintendo girl in my youth, and got FF7 quite late and by then the game felt dated and the random battle frequency started to grate on my nerves as I prefer story over combat. Perhaps if I had got it when I was younger I'd feel different but I gave my copy away for free to a mate after feeling disappointed with it.

Thaius:

As for Lightning, she was what took the conflict to the next level. She herself hated Snow, even before Serah turned to crystal, which is why her anger drove her to encourage and empower Hope. The conflict between characters in FFXIII was rather complex, pitting Lightning and Snow in direct opposition to each other even down to their base personalities (Snow as an optimistic idealist and Lightning as a cynical realist) so that Lightning would, in her hatred of Snow, actually encourage Hope toward his revenge...It's not Lightning neglecting to set the brat straight, it's her being blinded by her common hatred of Snow and wrongfully encouraging Hope; this is what her later monologue is all about.

This is why, for me, Lightnings development did not engage me at all. A cynical realist would not hate an optimistic idealist; they'd have a mixture of a small amount of jealousy and a large dose of contempt.

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