David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

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Jaranja:

Biosophilogical:

secretsantaone:

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Well I haven't played DA2, but from what I've heard it is a 'framed narative', told by someone who likes to exaggerate to a person he doesn't necessarily like. So it doesn't matter if you kill her or not, Varric could just include her for shits and giggles.[1] And also, Hawke is from Lothering, and Varric knows Hawke, and Lelianna was in Lothering for a time. So Varric knowing about Lelianna isn't much of a stretch.

Nope. Leliana shows up after the story is told.

Oh, okay then. Clearly she's actually a zombie.

[1] Remember, I have't actually played, so if I'm missing something here, feel free to tell me.

ZiggyE:
With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

Personally I'd call a character being dead in one game and then alive in the sequel more than a 'little' inconsistency.

I think Gaider needs to not get involved in internet forums. They're terrifying places filled with horrible people. No good can come of arguing with the fans, no matter who's right or wrong.

I can't help but think it's in part due to Brent Knowles, the creative lead of DA:O, leaving Bioware just before its release. The sad thing is that he left partly because he didn't like the direction DA2 was taking.

Anyways, once again, Bioware gets no sympathy from me. The standard response is someone brings this up (because let's be honest, if you play one game and kill a character, then see them come back in part 2, then you'd sure as hell want to ask the writer what's going on) is:

"Hey, good catch! We didn't spot that, but we'll get on it and see if we can't work something out."

That something being a patch where the character doesn't appear if you killed her. I doubt that would be the hardest thing for Bioware to do, and it would show your fans you're trying to come up with a solution.

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

Because then you've just pissed off your fanbase, and left them still holding a broken game.

And as I've said before, and will say again now: rush job.

Is it just me or does it seem more like Gaider was just saying he didn't want to say anything about what happened with Leliana yet(as in, save it for the sequel) and not "fuck you, there's no errors in my story." Really, this is all being thrown way out of proportion.

I still find it amazing that people here believe we shouldn't be able to voice criticisms against this game. A minority feels neglected, and a bunch of you are just going "Shut the fuck up and stop whining Bioware's Teh Graetest!"

Who here are the fanboys?

She did die in a big giant room full of magic.

secretsantaone:
image

David Gaider, lead writer on Dragon Age 2, has declared that being 'dead' isn't such a big deal in Dragon Age 2.

Apparently Leliana was just pretending when I chopped her head off. Alrighty then.

This seems a bit contradictary, especially considering Bioware had been playing up the 'big choices that matter' in regards to their games and especially especially in how they didn't pull this in Mass Effect 2. Wrex STAYED dead.

Seems like a big retcon cover to me. Thoughts?

Source: http://social.bioware.com/%20http:/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6589945/2

Well yes, the thing is that Bioware is getting sloppy with their game design and writing. To be honest it would have been workable to have "Agent Nightengale" turn out to be differant people depending on the outcomes of the first game, but it would have taken a lot of work, and this is the sequel where they are re-using the same maps constantly, and having enemies spawn in waves to attack you.

The idea of a game series with meaningful desicians carrying over from chapter to chapter is an RPG-nerd's wet dream. It's quite doable, but it takes a lot of work, and it's not something your going to get with a quick cash-in like "Dragon Age II". Simply put, I think they cut every corner they possibly could with this game, and on top of that had their people heavily divided among a number of projects despite where their names might show up. As a result this wasn't a game of the general quality you'd have expected from Bioware. Their quality was because they had a crack group of people that took whatever time was needed, that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Leliana is one of the things I think about when I tell people that I don't think the writing was very good for "Dragon Age II", or at least not up to Bioware's standards. I just rarely want to give specific examples. The possibility of her being dead is one thing, but then again what about a situation where she was romancing a Gray Warden who was a mage? Indeed the final word on the subject for my character in "Origins" is that the two were seen travelling together through the land. I get the whole "disapperance" of the hero of Feralden being discussed, but it doesn't seem likely under the circumstances that Leliana would exactly be waving a "right of annulment" flag as well.

What's more, when my mage character saved Feralden, I used the request from the king to have the mages removed from the chantry's direct regulation. Among other things it should not have been illegal to be an Apostate in Feralden, and mayhaps there might be some angry religious types and hints of a civil war, but there shouldn't be Templars controlling the tower there either. I can see where the affects through the DLC would be minimal, but given the passage of time in "Dragon Age 2" I'd have expected this to be accounted for in dialogue when what's going on in other parts of the world were discussed.

It's not that Bioware couldn't have anticipated these things, and written appropriate situations and dialogue, it's just that they chose not to. Being a professional company though they aren't going to come out and say they did a bad job, rushed, or got sloppy. We'll just have to see if they do better in the future.

Simply put Nightengale having differant identities depending on the events of the first game wouldn't have been hard to pull off. It's no worse than say the beginning of Awakening where your encounter with the ruler and the exact dialogue depends on who is on the throne. One of my Warden's for example was a male, human-noble, who would up marrying the queen, making him the king-consort or whatever. This was actually accounted for, and it was very differant from the game with where I had Alistair on the throne, and my elven mage got together with Leliana.

Having a couple of differant characters who could be Nightengale and a couple differant sets of dialogue for each would have been all it would have taken.

Cheesepower5:

secretsantaone:
How on earth can anyone be 'self-entitled' about a game they spent 40 on?

How on earth is the unexplained revival of a major character for no good reason 'petty'?

How on earth could anyone say 'it's their game, they can do what they want with it!' when it's the consumer who actually finances and experiences the game?

Because 40 Euroes is suddenly enough money to make you head project manager at Bioware? Buying a book you don't like doesn't mean you even should go and tell off the author because the ending you guessed was wrong and you liked yours better.

No, but it does mean that you have every right to criticise it if it has glaring plot holes.

You're seriously suggesting that anyone who was unhappy with the game shouldn't be allowed to give any negative feedback whatsoever?

Everything lined up in my DA2 game so I have no complaints.
Which is funny because my Dragon Age 1 campaign didn't line up with itself and I still had no complaints.

Every other sentence people would not shut up about 'King Alistair' I assume they got the wrong game and did a little to much Skooma because my friend made it expressly clear how much he didn't want to be king and Anora seemed entirely competent. Also, was very nice to me.
They also thought I ended up with Zevran, which never remotely happened, there was an unrequited love with Alistair, he remained just friends due to my Rogue's penchant for agreeing with Morrigan.
They glitched my Leliana out of existence as well, incapable of being spoken to or have her standing with me changed at all. Even after I broke the urn she didn't care, I told her politely to leave because her zombie stare was bothering my dog Ser Myzery the 9th.
I know they got other stuff wrong to, not to mentioned the Awakenings sync.

Of all that DA2 had nothing out of order. (Well, not with it's game sync. It had some fatal pacing and focus issues)

Edit: To more specifically address this topic. BioWare did not include a command to physical confirm their death. Every fantasy has there random friendly bystanders find corpse and nurse back to health in nick of time, or divine figure intervenes for faithful follower.

Don't take everything so literally, fill in the blanks for yourself, rewrite the story however you want, ignore any part you want. It is your purchase to do so, it is your roleplaying.
But don't expect the writers to conform to that vision, it's their story.

secretsantaone:

Cheesepower5:

secretsantaone:
How on earth can anyone be 'self-entitled' about a game they spent 40 on?

How on earth is the unexplained revival of a major character for no good reason 'petty'?

How on earth could anyone say 'it's their game, they can do what they want with it!' when it's the consumer who actually finances and experiences the game?

Because 40 Euroes is suddenly enough money to make you head project manager at Bioware? Buying a book you don't like doesn't mean you even should go and tell off the author because the ending you guessed was wrong and you liked yours better.

No, but it does mean that you have every right to criticise it if it has glaring plot holes.

You're seriously suggesting that anyone who was unhappy with the game shouldn't be allowed to give any negative feedback whatsoever?

No, that would be rather stupid.

I just don't think a 10 page flame war is totally necessary.

Eh, as long as they offer an explanation for how the head re-grew I guess it's ok.

MiracleOfSound:

StBishop:

MiracleOfSound:
Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

I'm noticing a lot of spoilers around these days.

I remember a time when spoiler tags were used to hide spoilers rather than images or YouTube clips.

That video was a version someone made without my knowledge.

EDIT: In otherwords.... you got a problem with the spoilers, talk to Mandalore.

Go look at my Youtube page, my version's only spoiler is that Shepard punches people.

Sorry, wasn't a personal attack. I was meaning in general on the site.

I'm actually a fan. Sorry bro.

Regardless, I'm seeing people use the spoiler tags more for "What song would play in this situation?" threads than to hide spoilers.

StBishop:
[
Sorry, wasn't a personal attack. I was meaning in general on the site.

I'm actually a fan. Sorry bro.

Regardless, I'm seeing people use the spoiler tags more for "What song would play in this situation?" threads than to hide spoilers.

Aha... no probs dude. I had a lot of people bitching at me over spoilers in that Shepard vid even though I had nothing to do with it and presumed you were doing the same :D

You get set options of what happened in the past when you start your game. This thread is pointless.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

I am getting fairly sick and tired of these statements. Certainly in the history of creative writing no one has ever brought anyone back from the dead for any reason whatsoever. None of the long running and very much beloved TV shows in the history of fantasy and sci-fi has EVER featured a character that died and came back.

Come to think of it, no book series of famous status has ever let a lead "die" only to see them coming back later, more bad-ass than ever. Or turned from Gray to White, for that matter.

But oh-no, BioWare did it, and it only reinforced our believe that they are incompetent and no longer pay attention to detail since, naturally, all they want to do is write "rush jobs". You know, writers don't give a fuck about their work nowadays.

Yes. It is THEIR Universe. They can do whatever they please with the characters, and that includes bringing them back from the dead since some folks decided to murder her/them in Origins. Do they owe anyone an explanation? Maybe. And maybe they will give one, or maybe they will leave it at that.

Leliana returning is not a plot hole. A plot hole is Cullen not recognizing Anders. A plot hole is Hawke taking a good year to get around and do the chore he/she was saddled with in return for an escort to a port.

Yes. DA2 has plot holes; Just like any other RPG every written has its little flaws---and I would bet my hat (in fact, I would eat it), that the writers and producers looking at them once the product is finished will cringe just as much as every player about their existence.

That said, DA2 has far less plot holes than I would expect from a game that has to take into account the massive amount of possibilities of the prequel. Because as awesome "choice" is on paper, it is a nightmare to take into account considering the sheer amount of players taking different turns. BioWare could have just as well decided to ignore Origins.

Ah what am I saying.

People would have bitched anyway.

Well, in a world of magic, the dead are rarely ever truly out of the picture.

Anah'ya:
Angry fangirlism and sarcastic bile-spewing :P

Speaking of plot holes, imagine my surprise when Alistair (The dead king) walked through the gates of my castle in Awakening. Frankly I was too happy to see him to bother about trivialities such as "he should have been dead" and so on.

The Hairminator:

Anah'ya:
Angry fangirlism and sarcastic bile-spewing :P

Speaking of plot holes, imagine my surprise when Alistair (The dead king) walked through the gates of my castle in Awakening. Frankly I was too happy to see him to bother about trivialities such as "he should have been dead" and so on.

That is not a plot hole though, that is just messed up. Alistair died for my mage, and Anora showed up at the gates. Are you sure you imported the right save? :P

And Oi! Minion! If I was an angry fan-girl I would not have listed 2 (of the numerous) small plot holes that Dragon Age 2 is boasting. Also, why are you reading this? Aren't you always all worked up over spoilers?

Rationalization:
You get set options of what happened in the past when you start your game. This thread is pointless.

We're talking about importing a save from DAO. In which you can kill a major character who simply revives in DA2 no matter what happened to her in DAO.
That's the issue.

Your post is pointless.

IronicBeet:

Shadowkire:
Summary of thread:
"I killed Leliana but she showed up in the sequel!/cry. Why doesn't Bioware bend over backwards to make everything I do matter?/crymore"

And the people saying the Mass Effect saga is better because it doesn't declare what is canon are not thinking it through. Dieing in ME2 is a direct effect of your choices, and a pretty big effect. Yet by the very existence of a third game with the same character all your important choices are rendered void.

And was killing either Zevran or Leliana really that important? One is a crow assassin, if he didn't have a name there would be no difference between him or the HUNDREDS of other crows I killed. So who the f*** cares if he shows up and gives me a quest, think of him as some other rogue assassin. And then there is Leliana, a retired spy... yeah killing her is sooooo important and therefore should never appear again.

When this happens in the next DA or ME game, read/imagine the characters' names backwards and envision my middle finger where their faces are and you won't be so butt-hurt about it.(probably not though)

Bioware has said (And it's stated in a loading screen in-game) that if Shep dies at the end of ME2, ME3 won't accept that import save and you'll have to make a new Shepard. Have you even played the game?

And yeah, Leliana and Zevran were pretty important, they weren't just random people you met in sidequests who showed up once. They were (Or at least had the potential to be) your party memebers during the game. If I don't recruit Leliana, or kill Zevran when I first meet him, they shouldn't show up in the second game like they joined my group anyway. It's just lazy and Gaider's being completely unprofessional about it.

Oh, and your pretentious tone is more than a little frustrating.

Yes I did play ME2, and I did know that about ME3. THAT was the point. Shepard's death as a direct consequence of your choices is more important than the fate of important side characters, and yet people are saying Mass Effect is better at containing their choices. This is not true because ME3 declares that the choices made by the people who got Shep killed are now made void so the story can go on.

Leliana and Zevran were important and you can technically claim they were met in side quests. They were so unimportant that you can start a new game and not let them join your party and the only thing different in the rest of the game is two less side quests and love interests.

Anah'ya:

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

I am getting fairly sick and tired of these statements. Certainly in the history of creative writing no one has ever brought anyone back from the dead for any reason whatsoever. None of the long running and very much beloved TV shows in the history of fantasy and sci-fi has EVER featured a character that died and came back.

Come to think of it, no book series of famous status has ever let a lead "die" only to see them coming back later, more bad-ass than ever. Or turned from Gray to White, for that matter.

But oh-no, BioWare did it, and it only reinforced our believe that they are incompetent and no longer pay attention to detail since, naturally, all they want to do is write "rush jobs". You know, writers don't give a fuck about their work nowadays.

Yes. It is THEIR Universe. They can do whatever they please with the characters, and that includes bringing them back from the dead since some folks decided to murder her/them in Origins. Do they owe anyone an explanation? Maybe. And maybe they will give one, or maybe they will leave it at that.

Leliana returning is not a plot hole. A plot hole is Cullen not recognizing Anders. A plot hole is Hawke taking a good year to get around and do the chore he/she was saddled with in return for an escort to a port.

Yes. DA2 has plot holes; Just like any other RPG every written has its little flaws---and I would bet my hat (in fact, I would eat it), that the writers and producers looking at them once the product is finished will cringe just as much as every player about their existence.

That said, DA2 has far less plot holes than I would expect from a game that has to take into account the massive amount of possibilities of the prequel. Because as awesome "choice" is on paper, it is a nightmare to take into account considering the sheer amount of players taking different turns. BioWare could have just as well decided to ignore Origins.

Ah what am I saying.

People would have bitched anyway.

I tip my hat to you for your great wisdom.

Shadowkire:

IronicBeet:

Shadowkire:
Summary of thread:
"I killed Leliana but she showed up in the sequel!/cry. Why doesn't Bioware bend over backwards to make everything I do matter?/crymore"

And the people saying the Mass Effect saga is better because it doesn't declare what is canon are not thinking it through. Dieing in ME2 is a direct effect of your choices, and a pretty big effect. Yet by the very existence of a third game with the same character all your important choices are rendered void.

And was killing either Zevran or Leliana really that important? One is a crow assassin, if he didn't have a name there would be no difference between him or the HUNDREDS of other crows I killed. So who the f*** cares if he shows up and gives me a quest, think of him as some other rogue assassin. And then there is Leliana, a retired spy... yeah killing her is sooooo important and therefore should never appear again.

When this happens in the next DA or ME game, read/imagine the characters' names backwards and envision my middle finger where their faces are and you won't be so butt-hurt about it.(probably not though)

Bioware has said (And it's stated in a loading screen in-game) that if Shep dies at the end of ME2, ME3 won't accept that import save and you'll have to make a new Shepard. Have you even played the game?

And yeah, Leliana and Zevran were pretty important, they weren't just random people you met in sidequests who showed up once. They were (Or at least had the potential to be) your party memebers during the game. If I don't recruit Leliana, or kill Zevran when I first meet him, they shouldn't show up in the second game like they joined my group anyway. It's just lazy and Gaider's being completely unprofessional about it.

Oh, and your pretentious tone is more than a little frustrating.

Yes I did play ME2, and I did know that about ME3. THAT was the point. Shepard's death as a direct consequence of your choices is more important than the fate of important side characters, and yet people are saying Mass Effect is better at containing their choices. This is not true because ME3 declares that the choices made by the people who got Shep killed are now made void so the story can go on.

Leliana and Zevran were important and you can technically claim they were met in side quests. They were so unimportant that you can start a new game and not let them join your party and the only thing different in the rest of the game is two less side quests and love interests.

I think you're missing the point about what people are mad about here. The people who killed Leliana/Zevran/Whoever aren't mad that Bioware isn't making their choice specifically canon to the series, they're mad that if they import a save where someone died, that person just appearing anyway with no effort made to replace them with someone else or even add a line of dialogue mentioning their "death" is bullshit and Gaider's just saying "WE DA WRITERS WE MAKE DA RULES STOP CRITICIZING ME" to the people who brought it up is incredibly unprofessional.

IronicBeet:

Shadowkire:

snip

I think you're missing the point about what people are mad about here. The people who killed Leliana/Zevran/Whoever aren't mad that Bioware isn't making their choice specifically canon to the series, they're mad that if they import a save where someone died, that person just appearing anyway with no effort made to replace them with someone else or even add a line of dialogue mentioning their "death" is bullshit and Gaider's just saying "WE DA WRITERS WE MAKE DA RULES STOP CRITICIZING ME" to the people who brought it up is incredibly unprofessional.

Where did Gaider say that? The screenshot of his posts from the OP said "You thought you killed them but actually they survived somehow, and to the people who are going to rant and rave that they should remain dead anyways: I won't get into an argument with you."

Seriously, go reread it just to refresh your view of his words. I guess a person could interpret those words more negatively but not as bad as you claim(unless there is more out there for me to see)

Shadowkire:

Yes I did play ME2, and I did know that about ME3. THAT was the point. Shepard's death as a direct consequence of your choices is more important than the fate of important side characters, and yet people are saying Mass Effect is better at containing their choices. This is not true because ME3 declares that the choices made by the people who got Shep killed are now made void so the story can go on.

Leliana and Zevran were important and you can technically claim they were met in side quests. They were so unimportant that you can start a new game and not let them join your party and the only thing different in the rest of the game is two less side quests and love interests.

He is making a point. Of course people can now argue "But why can I import my DA:O and Leliana is alive?!" -- and they are blatantly ignoring that BioWare is trying to provide a better slate to base future content on; which demanded of them to make decisions that would help them on the long run. And Lelianas' fate was one of them.

*tips her hat*

At that note, imagine how many people will complain once ME3 comes out about not being allowed to import their dead Shepard. But Shepard is dead, how can ME3 have a Shepard! NAAARRRRRGH! There will be complaints about it, that's just how RPG fans are. They will complain no matter what route you take.

Shadowkire:

IronicBeet:

Shadowkire:

snip

I think you're missing the point about what people are mad about here. The people who killed Leliana/Zevran/Whoever aren't mad that Bioware isn't making their choice specifically canon to the series, they're mad that if they import a save where someone died, that person just appearing anyway with no effort made to replace them with someone else or even add a line of dialogue mentioning their "death" is bullshit and Gaider's just saying "WE DA WRITERS WE MAKE DA RULES STOP CRITICIZING ME" to the people who brought it up is incredibly unprofessional.

Where did Gaider say that? The screenshot of his posts from the OP said "You thought you killed them but actually they survived somehow, and to the people who are going to rant and rave that they should remain dead anyways: I won't get into an argument with you."

Seriously, go reread it just to refresh your view of his words. I guess a person could interpret those words more negatively but not as bad as you claim(unless there is more out there for me to see)

Gaider is a shit writer. He included the characters he wanted and is going to magic some bullshit excuse out of his arse as to why they somehow managed to become resurrected from the grave.
If I killed Lelianna she should stay dead. There shouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina device which revives her so the plot can continue in the way Gaider wanted it too.
What is the point of giving me the option to kill Lelianna if the game treats it as if it never happened?

Shadowkire:

Where did Gaider say that? The screenshot of his posts from the OP said "You thought you killed them but actually they survived somehow, and to the people who are going to rant and rave that they should remain dead anyways: I won't get into an argument with you."

Seriously, go reread it just to refresh your view of his words. I guess a person could interpret those words more negatively but not as bad as you claim(unless there is more out there for me to see)

So... It isn't saying. "So what? You decapitate them but they got better. And i won't talk about it more because this is how it should be... wark wark... "
Listen you chopped her head of, and "they survived somehow". And saying that "I won't get into an argument with you." is just mean because we want to know how?

The problem with this is not that she is alive. Propably is just the save, save have flags only on few things so propably it would be a problem to import every information since they didn't predict it. But... You remember Baldurs Gate? And drizzt? In first you could kill him, he was just random encounter kinda. In baldurs gate 2, if you import he is not there (classic), but if you didn't import character, drizzt is still there, but he kinda ask you did you kill him. Do you see where i'm going. They knew that this character could be dead so they gived an option to tell him, right i killed you in last game, so you will be angry now and attack me or whatever. In this game those character even thought you could kill them just talk without saying anything, like it never happend. It's stupid. It's like IT NEVER HAPPEND.
Ok Dragon age is huge etc. but you know what? If lead writer doesn't actknowaldge his mistakes or he just ignore our questions. It's anoying. In DA2 they put a lot characters that could be dead, just because they were popular. If you give us option, stick with it, that's how rpg should be done, or at least tell us why it happend, don't ignore us.

And for those knights who defend his decision to revive them etc. I also like bioware, but where are mistakes or flaws we as fans should point them out, so they could fix it and so they could make better games. Games are for us. Don't defend them, they don't need it...
When you love company you don't have pink glasses and ignore flaws. You should give them money when they did great job, and if there are small mistakes, correct them because they are humans and they make mistakes. And if they create bad game, don't give them money so they won't do it again and say what was wrong, simple love ;P.

Anah'ya:

At that note, imagine how many people will complain once ME3 comes out about not being allowed to import their dead Shepard. But Shepard is dead, how can ME3 have a Shepard! NAAARRRRRGH! There will be complaints about it, that's just how RPG fans are. They will complain no matter what route you take.

They first idea was that they couldn't play you know? They changed it, because it's nothing artistic in not playing game ;P. So they know it and propably will come up with something. Propably space vampire version 2.

Trolldor:

Gaider is a shit writer. He included the characters he wanted and is going to magic some bullshit excuse out of his arse as to why they somehow managed to become resurrected from the grave.
If I killed Lelianna she should stay dead. There shouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina device which revives her so the plot can continue in the way Gaider wanted it too.
What is the point of giving me the option to kill Lelianna if the game treats it as if it never happened?

Anah'ya:

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

I am getting fairly sick and tired of these statements. Certainly in the history of creative writing no one has ever brought anyone back from the dead for any reason whatsoever. None of the long running and very much beloved TV shows in the history of fantasy and sci-fi has EVER featured a character that died and came back.

Come to think of it, no book series of famous status has ever let a lead "die" only to see them coming back later, more bad-ass than ever. Or turned from Gray to White, for that matter.

But oh-no, BioWare did it, and it only reinforced our believe that they are incompetent and no longer pay attention to detail since, naturally, all they want to do is write "rush jobs". You know, writers don't give a fuck about their work nowadays.

Yes. It is THEIR Universe. They can do whatever they please with the characters, and that includes bringing them back from the dead since some folks decided to murder her/them in Origins. Do they owe anyone an explanation? Maybe. And maybe they will give one, or maybe they will leave it at that.

Leliana returning is not a plot hole. A plot hole is Cullen not recognizing Anders. A plot hole is Hawke taking a good year to get around and do the chore he/she was saddled with in return for an escort to a port.

Yes. DA2 has plot holes; Just like any other RPG every written has its little flaws---and I would bet my hat (in fact, I would eat it), that the writers and producers looking at them once the product is finished will cringe just as much as every player about their existence.

That said, DA2 has far less plot holes than I would expect from a game that has to take into account the massive amount of possibilities of the prequel. Because as awesome "choice" is on paper, it is a nightmare to take into account considering the sheer amount of players taking different turns. BioWare could have just as well decided to ignore Origins.

Ah what am I saying.

People would have bitched anyway.

Tolkien is a shit writer. How dare he throw Gandalf down with the Balrog and then have him come back?!

Joss Wheddon is a shit writer. How dare he kill Buffy, and have her come back?!

... I could continue listing other authors who have resurrected characters during the course of their stories lifespan, but that would be a very, very, very long list.

This is THEIR universe. As much as the player wants to be the centre of attention, that only works for the most linear of experiences. The moment you have choice involved you will cripple yourself. Choice is only awesome on paper. Choice will fuck you up with the sheer amount of it presented in DA:O.

They had every right to do what they did with these characters. Who are you to know whether or not they have something else planned for Leliana? Do you own their Dragon Age Bible? Know just what is possible and what is not? Do you know whether or not Leliana was actually sent by the Maker to assist the Warden, as she claimed at the beginning?

Having said that, please, go ahead and write up a comprehensive and expansive story as they have. Once you have done that and found a publisher, come back and present your work and show us just how great you are as an author.

*huffs*

I can stand people trash talking games, but insulting a writer?

*twitch*

Ishiro32:

And for those knights who defend his decision to revive them etc. I also like bioware, but where are mistakes or flaws we as fans should point them out, so they could fix it and so they could make better games. Games are for us. Don't defend them, they don't need it...
When you love company you don't have pink glasses and ignore flaws. You should give them money when they did great job, and if there are small mistakes, correct them because they are humans and they make mistakes. And if they create bad game, don't give them money so they won't do it again and say what was wrong, simple love ;P.

I hope you were not referring to me as a knight there. I would feel highly offended to be referred to as such. Heavy armor weights me down too much.

Anyway.

I am standing to the defence of the writers who made a decision that the players do not agree with, while being fully capable and entitled to do so. Leliana was no plot hole, which is what people are riding it as. Leliana was a choice.

Actual plot holes are common in every RPG I have ever played which offers a storyline complex enough to fill a novel sized book. And Dragon Age 2 is no exception. If I would ever argue that Dragon Age 2 was perfect, in both design and writing, I should be struck by lighting and left to smoulder in a pile of charred meat on the floor.

Royta:

Rationalization:
You get set options of what happened in the past when you start your game. This thread is pointless.

We're talking about importing a save from DAO. In which you can kill a major character who simply revives in DA2 no matter what happened to her in DAO.
That's the issue.

Your post is pointless.

The save you "load" is a checklist of certain set options. All other choices are irrevelant to the backstory uploaded.

Can you define major in this particular case, I played DAO I don't remember this character. Went on the wikia from there it looks like she's an optional companion that doesn't advance the plot but does have one DLC for her. I mean from my point of view to be a major character I wouldn't have been given the option to pass her up as a companion, and doing so having no effect on my game. I went to the quest in the wikia that says you can kill her, but I can't find the part. One more thing that leads me to believe her, and killing her arn't a big deal. Also, her limited involvement in only the end of DA2, and another in an optional DLC, adds more weight to her not being a major character.

In awakening she never shows up and is only mentioned once at the epilogue, if the warden had a romance with her. Lots of ifs there.

Anah'ya:

Trolldor:

Gaider is a shit writer. He included the characters he wanted and is going to magic some bullshit excuse out of his arse as to why they somehow managed to become resurrected from the grave.
If I killed Lelianna she should stay dead. There shouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina device which revives her so the plot can continue in the way Gaider wanted it too.
What is the point of giving me the option to kill Lelianna if the game treats it as if it never happened?

Anah'ya:

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

I am getting fairly sick and tired of these statements. Certainly in the history of creative writing no one has ever brought anyone back from the dead for any reason whatsoever. None of the long running and very much beloved TV shows in the history of fantasy and sci-fi has EVER featured a character that died and came back.

Come to think of it, no book series of famous status has ever let a lead "die" only to see them coming back later, more bad-ass than ever. Or turned from Gray to White, for that matter.

But oh-no, BioWare did it, and it only reinforced our believe that they are incompetent and no longer pay attention to detail since, naturally, all they want to do is write "rush jobs". You know, writers don't give a fuck about their work nowadays.

Yes. It is THEIR Universe. They can do whatever they please with the characters, and that includes bringing them back from the dead since some folks decided to murder her/them in Origins. Do they owe anyone an explanation? Maybe. And maybe they will give one, or maybe they will leave it at that.

Leliana returning is not a plot hole. A plot hole is Cullen not recognizing Anders. A plot hole is Hawke taking a good year to get around and do the chore he/she was saddled with in return for an escort to a port.

Yes. DA2 has plot holes; Just like any other RPG every written has its little flaws---and I would bet my hat (in fact, I would eat it), that the writers and producers looking at them once the product is finished will cringe just as much as every player about their existence.

That said, DA2 has far less plot holes than I would expect from a game that has to take into account the massive amount of possibilities of the prequel. Because as awesome "choice" is on paper, it is a nightmare to take into account considering the sheer amount of players taking different turns. BioWare could have just as well decided to ignore Origins.

Ah what am I saying.

People would have bitched anyway.

Tolkien is a shit writer. How dare he throw Gandalf down with the Balrog and then have him come back?!

Joss Wheddon is a shit writer. How dare he kill Buffy, and have her come back?!

... I could continue listing other authors who have resurrected characters during the course of their stories lifespan, but that would be a very, very, very long list.

This is THEIR universe. As much as the player wants to be the centre of attention, that only works for the most linear of experiences. The moment you have choice involved you will cripple yourself. Choice is only awesome on paper. Choice will fuck you up with the sheer amount of it presented in DA:O.

They had every right to do what they did with these characters. Who are you to know whether or not they have something else planned for Leliana? Do you own their Dragon Age Bible? Know just what is possible and what is not? Do you know whether or not Leliana was actually sent by the Maker to assist the Warden, as she claimed at the beginning?

Having said that, please, go ahead and write up a comprehensive and expansive story as they have. Once you have done that and found a publisher, come back and present your work and show us just how great you are as an author.

*huffs*

I can stand people trash talking games, but insulting a writer?

*twitch*

I actually am a published Author, so lol.
And it was fiction too.
Double lol.

Trolldor:

I actually am a published Author, so lol.
And it was fiction too.
Double lol.

Good on you (and I will not press further in public, lest this turns personal and we do not want that)-- however I see you decided to ignore the rest of my post.

Now the question is, take this to PMs or leave it at that. I figure taking it anywhere else could be considered a waste of time, since we would probably just tear each others throats out over your dismissal of Gaider as a bad writer. Something I cannot possibly agree with since I have read far worse published fantasy novels than his Dragon Age books (The Stolen Throne and The Calling).

Anah'ya:

Trolldor:

I actually am a published Author, so lol.
And it was fiction too.
Double lol.

Good on you (and I will not press further in public, lest this turns personal and we do not want that)-- however I see you decided to ignore the rest of my post.

Now the question is, take this to PMs or leave it at that. I figure taking it anywhere else could be considered a waste of time, since we would probably just tear each others throats out over your dismissal of Gaider as a bad writer. Something I cannot possibly agree with since I have read far worse published fantasy novels than his Dragon Age books (The Stolen Throne and The Calling).

I didn't feel obliged to read your post because you tried to argue that in order to criticise writing we must somehow have authored a piece of our own - absurdity to the highest degree.

When the lead writer decides it's okay to have an optional companion who can be killed or completely ignored by the player return from the dead to serve as a plot device, you have problems. There is no consistency.
The writing is shit because it's dismissive. It tells the player that really their role in the narrative doesn't matter because Bioware will pull all sorts of magic out of its arse anyway.

Gaider was the lead in Origins, so how he fucked up so badly I don't know.

Trolldor:

I didn't feel obliged to read your post because you tried to argue that in order to criticise writing we must somehow have authored a piece of our own - absurdity to the highest degree.

No, I can happily point out a score of published authors who are shite, in comparison to Gaider, at least. I made no argument that you need to be able to write your own book to judge someones work. What this interjection was all about was you showing little to no appreciation whatsoever, and this sort of blatant dismissal is rarely seen by anyone who knows how much work has to flow into writing a comprehensive piece of fiction.

When the lead writer decides it's okay to have an optional companion who can be killed or completely ignored by the player return from the dead to serve as a plot device, you have problems. There is no consistency.
The writing is shit because it's dismissive. It tells the player that really their role in the narrative doesn't matter because Bioware will pull all sorts of magic out of its arse anyway.

Gaider was the lead in Origins, so how he fucked up so badly I don't know.

... and this is where you ignored my post. Writers have been resurrecting their favourite characters for one reason or the other throughout the course of fiction. Some with coherent reasons (Gandalf -- he never did die, Buffy -- we saw the ritual), some with less (Leliana, Ellen Ripley -- she should have never died to begin with *hiss*), some with such ridiculous fervour that it makes me want to bash my head against a wall (Supernatural).

So. Again I will point out that I do not think Dragon Age 2 is perfect. The plot holes I would list are probably not the ones that most folks rage about, however, and this is not part of the discussion.

What I have been trying to say is that, without being involved in the creation of the Dragon Age setting, players may have the "right" to complain about a decision, but they do not have the right to dismiss the choice from being a valid one for the people who wrote it, because face it: While man does not have the means to return someone from the dead, for all we know it was not man who brought her back.

I can come up with a multitude of possibilities on how Leliana survived and my imagination doesn't have to stretch very far to come up with a score more for how she might have returned had she really died. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it is not perfectly valid in context of the Dragon Age setting.

For crying out loud, Anders had a fucking sword driven through him and didn't as much as flinch before he ripped the people responsible apart. "Unique circumstances" back and forth, whoever knows Leliana doesn't have some as well?

And that is just taking into account that people make the argument of having cut off Lelianas pretty red head. A weak argument at best. The times my characters in DA:O cut someones head off and then talked to them in a cutscene can barely fit on the fingers of one hand. Game mechanics. Blerk.

Anah'ya:

I hope you were not referring to me as a knight there. I would feel highly offended to be referred to as such. Heavy armor weights me down too much.

Anyway.

I am standing to the defence of the writers who made a decision that the players do not agree with, while being fully capable and entitled to do so. Leliana was no plot hole, which is what people are riding it as. Leliana was a choice.

Actual plot holes are common in every RPG I have ever played which offers a storyline complex enough to fill a novel sized book. And Dragon Age 2 is no exception. If I would ever argue that Dragon Age 2 was perfect, in both design and writing, I should be struck by lighting and left to smoulder in a pile of charred meat on the floor.

Knights wear armor all the time only in D&D rpg's and cheap fantasy ;P.

Ok but replying to your argument. Fine i could accept it and go play games because, it's small mistake (i still will say that was mistake because this situation shouldn't happen... It's not good storytelling when, you know... You have option to chopped head off, and then character somehow survive). But my problem is how this situation is handeld by lead writer. I understand he has a lot of stress etc, but cutting down discusion without acknowledge of plothole (in my opinion it is) is not polite. He gave us no reason, no explanation of this situation, it is like the choice from Dragon Age:Orgins never existed. And he didn't even wrote "yeah you know, we forgot about that. We will try to add something in next patch" or "You see we know that only minority killed her, so we couldn't fit new story for people who has. Sorry for that" or "This is great secret, buy our new game/dlc you will see what kind of zombie/resurrection spells we added to game". Nothing... I don't like how it's handled more than the minor mistake.
Do you know what i mean?

As for the DA2, rushed out to make money. It was made in one year, that's too short time to make good rpg. Propably this game was rushed because of the delaying SW:TOR, maybe not, but this theory makes sense. When you look at game in this way, it is very sad... Still i hope TOR will be worth it. Can't wait ^^

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