David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

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Shaoken:

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Jaded Scribe:

secretsantaone:

Jaded Scribe:

While she didn't play that major of a role in DA2, it's pretty clear she's going to play a major role in DA3. As for providing the option, they clearly weren't originally planning on having her come back in that capacity.

Again, there was hand-waving involved with Anders/Justice, a little handwaving in Awakening allowing you to import a dead warden.

These things come up. It is incredibly difficult to progress with a series with this many choices if you don't have the entire series planned out up front (which is very rare) without a little hand-waving.

It's very easy to play arm-chair quarterback and say they just used poor writing, etc. But you don't know what was discussed in their meetings, how they decided it would work, etc.

Plus, again, it's possible that one of the other posters is wrong about the beheading part, making it easier to say "you thought she was dead, but she wasn't".

I'm not saying it couldn't be handled better, but of all the things to nerdrage about, you pick this?

I'm not so much miffed about Leliana being in DA2, when I saw her, I just thought 'Huh, didn't I kill you? Oh well.' it's more about the response from Gaider, that you're an idiot for thinking having your head chopped off means the character's dead and that any choice you think you've made can pretty much be negated by Bioware if they feel like it.

THIS I agree with you on. It was incredibly undiplomatic. But, David Gaider is human like the rest of us. He makes mistakes. He could have been having a bad day. That particular poster could have done something to irritate him, etc. He's also been dealing with a lot of backlash over DA2 (though I myself thoroughly enjoyed it) and dealing with people complaining about every little thing, often in conflict with each other.

Should he have handled it better? Absolutely.

If you look at some of the posts Gaider has posted before it's the same story. He seems genuinely unable to take criticism. Stuff like dismissing all negative criticism as a '4chan raid' and mocking anyone who dares express concern over dragon age 2 really is a quite bad.

If I say that Dragon Age 2's story was sloppily put together, do you think Gaider will swoop in on me and yell at me? Or will a fanboy get to me first?

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Shaoken:

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Drew Karpyshyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Gaider. He actually gives a shit what the fans think. That is why I'm liking ME2 more than DA2.

secretsantaone:

Jaded Scribe:

secretsantaone:

I'm not so much miffed about Leliana being in DA2, when I saw her, I just thought 'Huh, didn't I kill you? Oh well.' it's more about the response from Gaider, that you're an idiot for thinking having your head chopped off means the character's dead and that any choice you think you've made can pretty much be negated by Bioware if they feel like it.

THIS I agree with you on. It was incredibly undiplomatic. But, David Gaider is human like the rest of us. He makes mistakes. He could have been having a bad day. That particular poster could have done something to irritate him, etc. He's also been dealing with a lot of backlash over DA2 (though I myself thoroughly enjoyed it) and dealing with people complaining about every little thing, often in conflict with each other.

Should he have handled it better? Absolutely.

If you look at some of the posts Gaider has posted before it's the same story. He seems genuinely unable to take criticism. Stuff like dismissing all negative criticism as a '4chan raid' and mocking anyone who dares express concern over dragon age 2 really is a quite bad.

True, but for me, I don't care how big of a douche someone is if I like what they put out. If Gaider does something to the game that ruins it for me, I'll walk away. If he continues to put out games that I thoroughly enjoy, I'll keep playing them regardless of his personality.

Soviet Heavy:
If I say that Dragon Age 2's story was sloppily put together, do you think Gaider will swoop in on me and yell at me? Or will a fanboy get to me first?

Well there's considerably more fanboys than there is Gaider.

ZiggyE:
With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

um, thats a bit more then an incosistency... This is on the scale of someone saying "I'm just going to visit George Washington, who became a computerised cyborg, created by aliens after Washington used the Illuminati time machine to visit the year 3291 CE."

Forgetting that ones favourite colouor is blue is an inconsistency, forgetting that one had ones head cut off & hence should be dead is just plain shoddy writing.

Soviet Heavy:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Shaoken:

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Drew Karpyshyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Gaider. He actually gives a shit what the fans think. That is why I'm liking ME2 more than DA2.

At least he respects the branching paths in the first game. When I compare my import to the ME2 default, I feel proud and unique. I can't say the same about DA2. God I hope he doesn't cave to the Talimancers.

matthew_lane:

Forgetting that ones favourite colouor is blue is an inconsistency, forgetting that one had ones head cut off & hence should be dead is just plain shoddy writing.

Sure. Unless we accept the fact that the majority of players wouldn't have killed off Leliana and that Leliana's head being 'chopped off' was completely subjective and the fact they have to consider however bloody many choices there were in Dragon Age II, I'm pretty sure it can be passed off as an inconsistency, considering it will only ever be retconned for the minority and half of them wouldn't even care.

It's not like Leliana dies in every playthrough of the game. Then it would be shoddy writing. But she doesn't.

ZiggyE:

matthew_lane:

Forgetting that ones favourite colouor is blue is an inconsistency, forgetting that one had ones head cut off & hence should be dead is just plain shoddy writing.

Sure. Unless we accept the fact that the majority of players wouldn't have killed off Leliana and that Leliana's head being 'chopped off' was completely subjective and the fact they have to consider however bloody many choices there were in Dragon Age II, I'm pretty sure it can be passed off as an inconsistency, considering it will only ever be retconned for the minority and half of them wouldn't even care.

It's not like Leliana dies in every playthrough of the game. Then it would be shoddy writing. But she doesn't.

With a developer like Bioware, the minority is the most crucial person to look at. Remember how they put out the statistics for ME2 that said the majority of people played Soldier? They didn't put that out to say that they will cater to Soldier players because they are the obvious majority.
They will look at the stats, and use them to make the alternatives more appealing. Just because the majority did not kill Leliana does not mean they should disregard the minority that did.

Soviet Heavy:
Just because the majority did not kill Leliana does not mean they should disregard the minority that did.

They had to disregard something considering their time constraints. If it's either something the minority did or the majority did, I'd pick the minority.

ZiggyE:
It's not like Leliana dies in every playthrough of the game. Then it would be shoddy writing. But she doesn't.

It is shoddy writing. If you have any story line that involves the death of a major character & then the next game just up and ignores that, that essential renders void the idea that i'm making choices that make any difference (okay so DA:02 did that anyway with its single ending). That is by its very definition shoddy writing.

ZiggyE:

Soviet Heavy:
Just because the majority did not kill Leliana does not mean they should disregard the minority that did.

They had to disregard something considering their time constraints. If it's either something the minority did or the majority did, I'd pick the minority.

No they didn't. They chose to disregard something due to self imposed itme constraints. Fans have every right to point out where this game failed. If you orded lunch from me & i just through random stuff on a plate & then billed it as 5 star cuisine, then you have every right to be pissed off. An if my excuse is, well we needed your money, so we did it fast, then that is just suckyness on a huge scale.

ZiggyE:

Soviet Heavy:
Just because the majority did not kill Leliana does not mean they should disregard the minority that did.

They had to disregard something considering their time constraints. If it's either something the minority did or the majority did, I'd pick the minority.

Surely it'd be better to leave her out altogether.

secretsantaone:

ZiggyE:

Soviet Heavy:
Just because the majority did not kill Leliana does not mean they should disregard the minority that did.

They had to disregard something considering their time constraints. If it's either something the minority did or the majority did, I'd pick the minority.

Surely it'd be better to leave her out altogether.

Yeah good point. She didn't add anything to the plot at all, it was just another pointless random cameo (like Alistair, Zevran, and Nathaniel). It could have been any other random character they made up, and it wouldn't make any difference

LOL You people never cease to amaze me!

It's as if you've never heard of a character being killed and then brought back? Seriously?

We are talking about a fantasy game here people!!

He also said: "not saying what happened in that chamber never occurred... in fact, we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana. You're free to make all the assumptions you like,"

matthew_lane:

ZiggyE:
It's not like Leliana dies in every playthrough of the game. Then it would be shoddy writing. But she doesn't.

It is shoddy writing. If you have any story line that involves the death of a major character & then the next game just up and ignores that, that essential renders void the idea that i'm making choices that make any difference (okay so DA:02 did that anyway with its single ending). That is by its very definition shoddy writing.

The death of the major character doesn't occur in every playthrough, therefore it can easily be disregarded as a non-canon death. God, why aren't you guys making more of a fuss about Anders?

I'd agree with you if she died every time around, BUT SHE DIDN'T. Therefore, it isn't shoddy writing when they pick and choose what they want to include in the next game based on the multitude of choices they give you. They can't keep everything a choice, because by the time they get to the fifth game (should it go that far) you'd almost be able to expect an entirely different storyline for the smallest of things of you did in the original game. Walking on tiptoes around eggshells when making these games would take an extraordinary amount of time and Bioware is in it for a profit, not to please every rabid fanboy.

secretsantaone:

ZiggyE:

Soviet Heavy:
Just because the majority did not kill Leliana does not mean they should disregard the minority that did.

They had to disregard something considering their time constraints. If it's either something the minority did or the majority did, I'd pick the minority.

Surely it'd be better to leave her out altogether.

;_; not my Leliana.

Sober Thal:
LOL You people never cease to amaze me!

It's as if you've never heard of a character being killed and then brought back? Seriously?

We are talking about a fantasy game here people!!

He also said: "not saying what happened in that chamber never occurred... in fact, we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana. You're free to make all the assumptions you like, of course"

From a developer characterised by tight story and meaningful decisions yeah.

Wrex dies.... WTF???

OT: I didn't kill her so I don't know how "revivable" she seems but magic can revive anything in that game so I wouldn't put it past someone else.

RatRace123:
Yeah, but I distinctly remember cutting off her head once.
I can understand maybe some people in the DA universe can survive that.

Hmm, maybe the Maker was protecting her after all.

My same exact thought
"Well maybe that Maker bullshit was true after all.

secretsantaone:

Sober Thal:
LOL You people never cease to amaze me!

It's as if you've never heard of a character being killed and then brought back? Seriously?

We are talking about a fantasy game here people!!

He also said: "not saying what happened in that chamber never occurred... in fact, we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana. You're free to make all the assumptions you like, of course"

From a developer characterised by tight story and meaningful decisions yeah.

He brings up a point though. Leliana was a very minor character in DA2. It is entirely possible that the choice at the Urn of Sacred Ashes will be addressed in DA3, as there wasn't a logical place for it to be addressed in DA2. Perhaps a blood mage brought her back to life (and DA2 sets precedence for that ability), or something else happened altogether.

Right now, we can only look at what we're given. But, considering we don't have the long view of the series Gaider and BioWare have, things that make no sense now will come back to be wrapped up later.

There was a LOT left out of DA2 that I've been trusting to be wrapped up in DA3 and/or DLC.

I never killed her--didn't even know you could until I read about it later--but considering WHERE you kill her at, it is completely possible for her to come back. She is a devote follower of The Maker, and you are standing in possibly the most holy place on Thedas when you kill her. Let's also not forget that The Urn has healing powers. Perhaps something Divine reached out to save her if you decided to kill her.
This could also explain why she is suddenly so close to the Divine herself.

Jaded Scribe:

secretsantaone:

Sober Thal:
LOL You people never cease to amaze me!

It's as if you've never heard of a character being killed and then brought back? Seriously?

We are talking about a fantasy game here people!!

He also said: "not saying what happened in that chamber never occurred... in fact, we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana. You're free to make all the assumptions you like, of course"

From a developer characterised by tight story and meaningful decisions yeah.

He brings up a point though. Leliana was a very minor character in DA2. It is entirely possible that the choice at the Urn of Sacred Ashes will be addressed in DA3, as there wasn't a logical place for it to be addressed in DA2. Perhaps a blood mage brought her back to life (and DA2 sets precedence for that ability), or something else happened altogether.

Right now, we can only look at what we're given. But, considering we don't have the long view of the series Gaider and BioWare have, things that make no sense now will come back to be wrapped up later.

There was a LOT left out of DA2 that I've been trusting to be wrapped up in DA3 and/or DLC.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if they addressed it in some way in DA2, but they completely ignored it. For my playthrough she was quite a major character. For my second playthrough I decided to be an asshole atheist and take every opportunity to piss Alastair and Leliana off. I took her along to the urn of sacred ashes knowing that I could destroy it and was delighted when I found out I could kill her, in my mind making a major decision, only to have it shat upon.

ZiggyE:
With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

There are only inconsistencies because they didn't invest the time and effort to make a rich, complex and worthwhile story.

Soviet Heavy:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Shaoken:

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Drew Karpyshyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Gaider. He actually gives a shit what the fans think. That is why I'm liking ME2 more than DA2.

You do realise that Mac Walters is current lead writer for Mass Effect =]

Though, I'm not sure if it matters in regards to the core narrative, as supposedly it was laid out from day one.

As for Gaider: I'm sure he is a great (though, apparently stubborn) guy, however I fail to see how he can justify a blatant retcon.

RedEyesBlackGamer:

MiracleOfSound:
Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.
Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

They did, they said that saves where shepard dies aren't going to be accepted in ME3.

Apparently someone was nice enough to spend 10,000 GP on a True Resurrection. Yay for Epic Level PCs!

Isnt that guy supposed to be fired cause of the way he wrote the story for homosexuals?

Anyway, I dont know why people are getting bent out of shape in a videogame. if they want to get on their cases about people being dead, perhaps when the character "dies" in battle, that should be the end. have the game stop, and not be able to be played agian, cause your character died. Then we'll see how much bitching we get for whether or not a character is dead.

Besides that, welll.. I havent really played DA2 so maybe someone can correct me on this, but do you have to play Origins to play two? Like, does it import your data? cause if you dont, then how does the game know what you did in the DAO?

Decapitation? It's Just a flesh wound.

secretsantaone:

Jaded Scribe:

secretsantaone:

From a developer characterised by tight story and meaningful decisions yeah.

He brings up a point though. Leliana was a very minor character in DA2. It is entirely possible that the choice at the Urn of Sacred Ashes will be addressed in DA3, as there wasn't a logical place for it to be addressed in DA2. Perhaps a blood mage brought her back to life (and DA2 sets precedence for that ability), or something else happened altogether.

Right now, we can only look at what we're given. But, considering we don't have the long view of the series Gaider and BioWare have, things that make no sense now will come back to be wrapped up later.

There was a LOT left out of DA2 that I've been trusting to be wrapped up in DA3 and/or DLC.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if they addressed it in some way in DA2, but they completely ignored it. For my playthrough she was quite a major character. For my second playthrough I decided to be an asshole atheist and take every opportunity to piss Alastair and Leliana off. I took her along to the urn of sacred ashes knowing that I could destroy it and was delighted when I found out I could kill her, in my mind making a major decision, only to have it shat upon.

But where should it have been addressed? In the three lines she had at the end? Or should she have told Hawke out of nowhere during her cameo in The Exiled Prince? "Oh, nice to meet you Hawke. You really do need to watch out for the Resolutionists. I'm working with the Chantry and Knight-Commander Meredith to put an end to it. By the way... I was resurrected by blood magic myself."

Honestly, I think it the bigger hole that she mentions traveling with the Warden if you don't recruit her at Lothering.

I honestly don't think they are trying to shoot down what happens in various playthroughs, or make your choices inconsequential (as shown by the large number that do influence the game). But, they couldn't have any recurring characters between games/xpacs without risking making a canon choice alienating fans that picked the one choice not supported.

Just another reason Dragon Age 2 is a big pile o' shit. If they can't do the choice carry over without deciding that the player was just "wrong" when they did something, they have no business doing it at all.

Now that I think about it, does this mean that the Ultimate Sacrifice ending is just bullshitted away too?

I know I'm missing the point but... WHY WOULD ANYONE KILL LELIANA?!?!?!

CAPTCHA: best; zerte

emeraldrafael:
Isnt that guy supposed to be fired cause of the way he wrote the story for homosexuals?

Anyway, I dont know why people are getting bent out of shape in a videogame. if they want to get on their cases about people being dead, perhaps when the character "dies" in battle, that should be the end. have the game stop, and not be able to be played agian, cause your character died. Then we'll see how much bitching we get for whether or not a character is dead.

Besides that, welll.. I havent really played DA2 so maybe someone can correct me on this, but do you have to play Origins to play two? Like, does it import your data? cause if you dont, then how does the game know what you did in the DAO?

You can import your data, or if you don't have an Origins game to import, or just don't want to, you can pick one of three prefabbed backgrounds.

Galliam:
What scares me is that in ME3, theres the potential for your entire team to be dead. I liked that no matter what, some characters were NOT going to die in ME1, but in ME2, everyone could be gone. I'm a bit scared about this.

Technically, that can't be possible.

I'm just glad that Gaider doesn't write for Mass Effect. Even if Karpyshyn isn't as involved as before, Mass Effect 2 still had some great parts to it, new writer and all. It's looking pretty good to be optimistic about ME3.

witness51:
I know I'm missing the point but... WHY WOULD ANYONE KILL LELIANA?!?!?!

CAPTCHA: best; zerte

My character was an atheist, wanted the secret knowledge that the cult offered (Reaver class), and didn't like Leliana getting uppity with him. Do the math.

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