David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

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witness51:
WHY WOULD ANYONE KILL LELIANA?!?!?!

I did in DOA cause I wanted to bang Morrigan in one of my saves and that seemed like the only way she would have relations with me.

... but then again, I did the same thing to Morrigan in another save to get with Lelianna.

Jaded Scribe:
Snip

oka then, well, thats what I mean then.

well

but there he is in DA2, still alive... i didn't have a problem with it, presumably it was something to do with justice

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Shaoken:

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Average by what standard, though?

(Focusing on the Western market) We have Obsidian, BioWare and arguably Valve and 2K telling interesting stories. Compared to the rest of the field, I think they're doing pretty well.

I'm not sure why Gaider is so defensive in that thread, but that's his problem. It's a retcon, and they should just fess up to it. A lot of games use a "true ending" that leads into a sequel, and if we're holding BW to a higher standard than the rest of the market, then let's at least get that out in the open.

Also, I know I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but I still think DA2 had a massively superior plot to Origins. This is probably the first game I've ever played where morality is so obscure and ephemeral that it gets harder and harder to determine what good and evil even mean in the setting.

That's a very interesting direction to take a fantasy RPG, and if DA3 manages to combine that with the integrity and design quality of DA:O, it could become something we've genuinely never seen before.

That's assuming, of course, that they don't rush it and have everyone become abominations.

What'chu know 'bout RPGs?

Not much, apparently. I left Leliana alive, so it was interesting to see her cameo in DA2.

This ain't The Witcher, you don't get choices that mean something.

(for the full effect, please watch Epic VFX Time with FreddieW and Epic Meal Time. Read the first line in EMTs voice, then the last in FreddieWs).

Eisenfaust:
well

but there he is in DA2, still alive... i didn't have a problem with it, presumably it was something to do with justice

Justice did bring back his first host to life, although not in the same way.

Jaded Scribe:

secretsantaone:

Jaded Scribe:

He brings up a point though. Leliana was a very minor character in DA2. It is entirely possible that the choice at the Urn of Sacred Ashes will be addressed in DA3, as there wasn't a logical place for it to be addressed in DA2. Perhaps a blood mage brought her back to life (and DA2 sets precedence for that ability), or something else happened altogether.

Right now, we can only look at what we're given. But, considering we don't have the long view of the series Gaider and BioWare have, things that make no sense now will come back to be wrapped up later.

There was a LOT left out of DA2 that I've been trusting to be wrapped up in DA3 and/or DLC.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if they addressed it in some way in DA2, but they completely ignored it. For my playthrough she was quite a major character. For my second playthrough I decided to be an asshole atheist and take every opportunity to piss Alastair and Leliana off. I took her along to the urn of sacred ashes knowing that I could destroy it and was delighted when I found out I could kill her, in my mind making a major decision, only to have it shat upon.

But where should it have been addressed? In the three lines she had at the end? Or should she have told Hawke out of nowhere during her cameo in The Exiled Prince? "Oh, nice to meet you Hawke. You really do need to watch out for the Resolutionists. I'm working with the Chantry and Knight-Commander Meredith to put an end to it. By the way... I was resurrected by blood magic myself."

Honestly, I think it the bigger hole that she mentions traveling with the Warden if you don't recruit her at Lothering.

I honestly don't think they are trying to shoot down what happens in various playthroughs, or make your choices inconsequential (as shown by the large number that do influence the game). But, they couldn't have any recurring characters between games/xpacs without risking making a canon choice alienating fans that picked the one choice not supported.

Not somethink out of the blue like that. If they had to have her, let the save record her 'death' and add a line of dialogue along the lines of 'I bet he/she'll be suprised when she sees me, as last time we met he/she tried to kill me'. Just to show they recognise that she should be dead.

Gee, you'd almost think there was a way to bring people back to life in the Dragon Age universe... oh wait.

Sylocat:
Gee, you'd almost think there was a way to bring people back to life in the Dragon Age universe... oh wait.

Do share. Magic only works on KO'd characters, Final Fantasy style.

So, this is another point that critics of Dragon Age 2 are going to latch on to. Of course, in a game that they actually enjoyed, they would probably just accept the "Writers determine canon" explanation.

secretsantaone:

Sylocat:
Gee, you'd almost think there was a way to bring people back to life in the Dragon Age universe... oh wait.

Do share. Magic only works on KO'd characters, Final Fantasy style.

Uh, how about Wynn? Did you do her quest?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Wynne

I've always thought of it like the endings in fighting games. Yeah, you can make certain outcomes happen, but ultimately the writers get to decide which ones become canon and affect later games in the series.

mireko:
snip

I never thought it blurred the line between good and evil. The Mages clearly needed to be supervised. I thought the Anvil decision in Origins did that. Anywho, we've been over it. You are in the DA2 camp, I'm in the "Mad Origins fan" camp. Maybe I should expand: The DA team of writers are average. The Mass Effect writers know how to execute a narrative (even if nothing happened in 2. Seems to be a trend starting).

FFHAuthor:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

MiracleOfSound:
Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.
Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

They did, they said that saves where shepard dies aren't going to be accepted in ME3.

That's actually quite reasonable.
You can't continue Shepard's Story in ME:3 if he died in a ditch.

Isn't this like getting the bad ending in ME2 then complaining that there is a ME3? They decide what choices are cannon surely.

McNinja:
What'chu know 'bout RPGs?

Not much, apparently. I left Leliana alive, so it was interesting to see her cameo in DA2.

This ain't The Witcher, you don't get choices that mean something.

(for the full effect, please watch Epic VFX Time with FreddieW and Epic Meal Time. Read the first line in EMTs voice, then the last in FreddieWs).

Eisenfaust:
well

but there he is in DA2, still alive... i didn't have a problem with it, presumably it was something to do with justice

Justice did bring back his first host to life, although not in the same way.

And once again with the Witcher nonsense.

Plot holes in DA2?
/shocked

To be honest, I am quite shocked to see more shit in DA2, didn't think it was possible...

mireko:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Shaoken:

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Average by what standard, though?

(Focusing on the Western market) We have Obsidian, BioWare and arguably Valve and 2K telling interesting stories. Compared to the rest of the field, I think they're doing pretty well.

I'm not sure why Gaider is so defensive in that thread, but that's his problem. It's a retcon, and they should just fess up to it. A lot of games use a "true ending" that leads into a sequel, and if we're holding BW to a higher standard than the rest of the market, then let's at least get that out in the open.

Also, I know I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but I still think DA2 had a massively superior plot to Origins. This is probably the first game I've ever played where morality is so obscure and ephemeral that it gets harder and harder to determine what good and evil even mean in the setting.

That's a very interesting direction to take a fantasy RPG, and if DA3 manages to combine that with the integrity and design quality of DA:O, it could become something we've genuinely never seen before.

That's assuming, of course, that they don't rush it and have everyone become abominations.

^^This.

I'm not trying to sound like a broken-record fangirl, but we have to allow them to pick a direction and follow it. Sometimes that means that choices we make will get retconned.

Should Gaider just say it outright, "Sorry, but we felt with the direction the story is taking that it was necessary to adjust some of the options we gave the player before." sure.

But, considering the Hero of Ferelden is looking to play a big role, do you really expect them to re-set it up and release essentially two games for those that took The Ultimate Sacrifice and change the entire plot of DA3 based around that?

xXxJessicaxXx:
Isn't this like getting the bad ending in ME2 then complaining that there is a ME3? They decide what choices are cannon surely.

What's the point in the choice then?

RedEyesBlackGamer:

mireko:
snip

I never thought it blurred the line between good and evil. The Mages clearly needed to be supervised. I thought the Anvil decision in Origins did that. Anywho, we've been over it. You are in the DA2 camp, I'm in the "Mad Origins fan" camp. Maybe I should expand: The DA team of writers are average. The Mass Effect writers know how to execute a narrative (even if nothing happened in 2. Seems to be a trend starting).

Yeah, there have been enough threads about it.

I'm a little worried about what Mac Walters will contribute to Mass Effect, since we don't really know who wrote what in ME2. If he wrote the T-1000 appearing, then we're all screwed. If Karpyshyn was responsible for that.. we're probably still screwed.

Bah, I'm going back to being pessimistic.

This is why, incredibly contrarily to so many opinions today, I am VASTLY against the "branching decision tree of choices" structure of storytelling. It happened from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2, making it such that if one character has a line "Hey, Joker, could you fetch Shepard and I some coffee?" it would need 10 different versions depending on who's alive, who doesn't hate who, etc. It also meant no specific storylines held significance in terms of foreshadowing, ironic twist, etc.

Bioware is learning that mistake, and accounting for it the wrong way, with things like this. They're realizing "You know what? The story sucks if that character dies, and it was a bad idea to give the player that choice. We could take the writing so many different ways if we just took away choices."

I really think the idea of a storyline hugely influenced by the player is overrated. You can still give the player some feeling of presence in the story, but you don't need massively overarching decisions to make that.

secretsantaone:

Jaded Scribe:

secretsantaone:

I'd be more inclined to believe that if they addressed it in some way in DA2, but they completely ignored it. For my playthrough she was quite a major character. For my second playthrough I decided to be an asshole atheist and take every opportunity to piss Alastair and Leliana off. I took her along to the urn of sacred ashes knowing that I could destroy it and was delighted when I found out I could kill her, in my mind making a major decision, only to have it shat upon.

But where should it have been addressed? In the three lines she had at the end? Or should she have told Hawke out of nowhere during her cameo in The Exiled Prince? "Oh, nice to meet you Hawke. You really do need to watch out for the Resolutionists. I'm working with the Chantry and Knight-Commander Meredith to put an end to it. By the way... I was resurrected by blood magic myself."

Honestly, I think it the bigger hole that she mentions traveling with the Warden if you don't recruit her at Lothering.

I honestly don't think they are trying to shoot down what happens in various playthroughs, or make your choices inconsequential (as shown by the large number that do influence the game). But, they couldn't have any recurring characters between games/xpacs without risking making a canon choice alienating fans that picked the one choice not supported.

Not somethink out of the blue like that. If they had to have her, let the save record her 'death' and add a line of dialogue along the lines of 'I bet he/she'll be suprised when she sees me, as last time we met he/she tried to kill me'. Just to show they recognise that she should be dead.

That would have been reasonable.

But, yet again, considering a number of games retcon their outcomes, is it just possible that because you didn't care for the game you're going overboard?

secretsantaone:

xXxJessicaxXx:
Isn't this like getting the bad ending in ME2 then complaining that there is a ME3? They decide what choices are cannon surely.

What's the point in the choice then?

There is no point to it. It's a story and didn't actually happen.

Are you saying what's the point in universe? The point is whatever the storyteller wants it to be. That's not you. You are playing a part in the story, not telling or creating it.

"That's a cool storyline you made for yourself, bro, but this is what really happens,"

or something.

secretsantaone:

Sylocat:
Gee, you'd almost think there was a way to bring people back to life in the Dragon Age universe... oh wait.

Do share. Magic only works on KO'd characters, Final Fantasy style.

So what happened to Flemeth then?

RedEyesBlackGamer:

witness51:
I know I'm missing the point but... WHY WOULD ANYONE KILL LELIANA?!?!?!

CAPTCHA: best; zerte

My character was an atheist, wanted the secret knowledge that the cult offered (Reaver class), and didn't like Leliana getting uppity with him. Do the math.

But she's just so damned wuvable! Granted she sucks balls in battle and sounds enragingly French, but still!

(Also, I'm honored that THE RedEyesBlackGamer quoted me.)

secretsantaone:

xXxJessicaxXx:
Isn't this like getting the bad ending in ME2 then complaining that there is a ME3? They decide what choices are cannon surely.

What's the point in the choice then?

The point of the choice is to make the player experience decision and emotion right there, at that moment, to draw the player into the story.

It is not, and never has been, meant to be indicative of "We will acknowledge every choice you ever made, ever, throughout the entire course of the series."

mireko:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

mireko:
snip

I never thought it blurred the line between good and evil. The Mages clearly needed to be supervised. I thought the Anvil decision in Origins did that. Anywho, we've been over it. You are in the DA2 camp, I'm in the "Mad Origins fan" camp. Maybe I should expand: The DA team of writers are average. The Mass Effect writers know how to execute a narrative (even if nothing happened in 2. Seems to be a trend starting).

Yeah, there have been enough threads about it.

I'm a little worried about what Mac Walters will contribute to Mass Effect, since we don't really know who wrote what in ME2. If he wrote the T-1000 appearing, then we're all screwed. If Karpyshyn was responsible for that.. we're probably still screwed.

Bah, I'm going back to being pessimistic.

I'm hoping for two things: ME3 isn't centered around Earth and it wraps everything up nicely. I get that and I'll be content.

Sylocat:

secretsantaone:

Sylocat:
Gee, you'd almost think there was a way to bring people back to life in the Dragon Age universe... oh wait.

Do share. Magic only works on KO'd characters, Final Fantasy style.

So what happened to Flemeth then?

Apparently that gets brought up in Witch Hunt. (Haven't played it, but read the wiki on it)

MiracleOfSound:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

MiracleOfSound:
Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.
Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

There is no

....

...ever.

I better not mention that in Super Mario Bros. the princess is in another castle. Oh crap...

Jaded Scribe:

secretsantaone:

xXxJessicaxXx:
Isn't this like getting the bad ending in ME2 then complaining that there is a ME3? They decide what choices are cannon surely.

What's the point in the choice then?

The point of the choice is to make the player experience decision and emotion right there, at that moment, to draw the player into the story.

It is not, and never has been, meant to be indicative of "We will acknowledge every choice you ever made, ever, throughout the entire course of the series."

Yeah if it was my choice Shepard would be married to Joker by now...jus sayin. *teehee*

There are two possibilities here:

1. BioWare are really being petulant and insisting on retconning a character's possible death just because they want to force the character on every player later.

2. In a fantasy world where we can turn people into blocks of ice at will or drink magic potions that cure anything from a concussion to total deafness, it may actually be possible for a dead person to be resurrected. It doesn't seem to happen very much in the DA universe, but that's not to say that it's completely impossible.

witness51:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

witness51:
I know I'm missing the point but... WHY WOULD ANYONE KILL LELIANA?!?!?!

CAPTCHA: best; zerte

My character was an atheist, wanted the secret knowledge that the cult offered (Reaver class), and didn't like Leliana getting uppity with him. Do the math.

But she's just so damned wuvable! Granted she sucks balls in battle and sounds enragingly French, but still!

(Also, I'm honored that THE RedEyesBlackGamer quoted me.)

You just summed up my argument whenever someone complains about Merrill. Also, I don't get the second part. A play on the card name, being sarcastic...? I'm confused.

RedEyesBlackGamer:

mireko:

RedEyesBlackGamer:
I never thought it blurred the line between good and evil. The Mages clearly needed to be supervised. I thought the Anvil decision in Origins did that. Anywho, we've been over it. You are in the DA2 camp, I'm in the "Mad Origins fan" camp. Maybe I should expand: The DA team of writers are average. The Mass Effect writers know how to execute a narrative (even if nothing happened in 2. Seems to be a trend starting).

Yeah, there have been enough threads about it.

I'm a little worried about what Mac Walters will contribute to Mass Effect, since we don't really know who wrote what in ME2. If he wrote the T-1000 appearing, then we're all screwed. If Karpyshyn was responsible for that.. we're probably still screwed.

Bah, I'm going back to being pessimistic.

I'm hoping for two things: ME3 isn't centered around Earth and it wraps everything up nicely. I get that and I'll be content.

While we're on the subject, have you played Arrival? If so, is it worth it?

RedEyesBlackGamer:

witness51:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

My character was an atheist, wanted the secret knowledge that the cult offered (Reaver class), and didn't like Leliana getting uppity with him. Do the math.

But she's just so damned wuvable! Granted she sucks balls in battle and sounds enragingly French, but still!

(Also, I'm honored that THE RedEyesBlackGamer quoted me.)

You just summed up my argument whenever someone complains about Merrill. Also, I don't get the second part. A play on the card name, being sarcastic...? I'm confused.

No, I'm serious. You have a fan.

This is why you plan your sequels in advance.

Soviet Heavy:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Shaoken:

Again, Bioware = best storytellers today.

That is entirely subjective. I find them to be average. If they decide to bring "characters we like back." in DA2 why not ME3 as well? I know it is a different writer, but BW has become quite conceited. I wouldn't put anything past them.

Drew Karpyshyn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Gaider. He actually gives a shit what the fans think. That is why I'm liking ME2 more than DA2.

If you honestly think the writing in ME2 is good then by good do not get the DLC.

GotMalkAvian:
There are two possibilities here:

1. BioWare are really being petulant and insisting on retconning a character's possible death just because they want to force the character on every player later.

2. In a fantasy world where we can turn people into blocks of ice at will or drink magic potions that cure anything from a concussion to total deafness, it may actually be possible for a dead person to be resurrected. It doesn't seem to happen very much in the DA universe, but that's not to say that it's completely impossible.

There is also option number 3. The character wasn't dead in the first place.

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