David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

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Nigh Invulnerable:

Zakarath:
Protip: Its better to own your mistakes than it is to just call the person pointing them out wrong.

(And if anyone says that I need an apostrophe in "Its" then SHUT UP YOU ARE WRONG.)

Typing in all caps and saying "I'm right and you are wrong" does not make it so. Apostrophe needed. :P

OT: sounds like the writer have heard of a Raise Dead spell.

Have you missed the joke or were you just taking advantage of the opportunity to be a grammar/punctuation nazi?

Chairman Miaow:

Nigh Invulnerable:

Zakarath:
Protip: Its better to own your mistakes than it is to just call the person pointing them out wrong.

(And if anyone says that I need an apostrophe in "Its" then SHUT UP YOU ARE WRONG.)

Typing in all caps and saying "I'm right and you are wrong" does not make it so. Apostrophe needed. :P

OT: sounds like the writer have heard of a Raise Dead spell.

Have you missed the joke or were you just taking advantage of the opportunity to be a grammar/punctuation nazi?

:P typically means I'm kidding around. However, it is entirely possible I may have missed whatever joke you're referring to, as I do not live on the Internet like some friends of mine.

The_root_of_all_evil:

poiumty:
This is why you plan your sequels in advance.

Like Lucas did? ;)

(He retconned most of his decisions. Star Wars was a singular film, that was then 9, then 6, now 9 again - and Darth Vader was just a boss fight in the original.)

Well, at least he planned 3 of them in advance. I think.

You can see what happened to the ones who weren't.

Freechoice:
Decapitation was merely a setback.

DIdnt seem to bother my party members the hundreds of times it happened to them and they got revived. People seem to forget a key mechanic in this game is the ability to raise the recently dead. Also you murdered a priestess in front of a holy icon. Deffinantly gonna see some divine intervention there.

Wow, his second post in particular, is seriously pathetic.

ZiggyE:
I believe those are the questions we are supposed to be asking. We're supposed to be wondering where Hawke and The Warden buggered off to at the end.

Same place Revan and The General went.

At this point, after the insane amount of unreasonable bullshit they've been hearing, I expect Bioware to be running out of patience and prone to the occasional snapping. Hell, I have been and I merely think it's a cool game.

People's willingness to idiotically crucify every single point of this game from those that hate that they defend gay relationships to those that think they don't defend gay couples, to every single plot point (and this one is actually valid, but a huge many deal are not) being frantically ripped to shreds, yeah, I'd say it kind of might make people want to snap.

That said, this reaction does them no favours, especially when on this case, where there is a perceived plot hole.

They're still the writers/authors of the game world, and as such, any character they perceive as relevant will likely make a comeback. They explained Flemeth pretty well; they will likely have to explain the Architect should you kill him; at most, there will be an explanation for Leliana, too.

But frankly all this harping by the same few people on the game is bordering on the pathetic.

secretsantaone:

Sorry for expecting quality from the game I spent £40 on.

I guess I'll just shut up and enjoy my plotholes and being treated like a 5 year old by the developers.

Some options have to be made canon. Otherwise, you might have to but DA- Kill Leliana edition, Dragon Age- Romance Leliana, and DA- She's hot, but I oggled after a foursome with Shale, Oghren and Dog instead.

And people would bitch about BW making them buy DLC.

I find big choices rarely matter in Bioware games. I still love the games but they're really more like "choose your own personality adventure" games and understandably so. It would take far too much time to have multiple story lines.

I do remember in the expansion for Baldur's Gate II. At the start you encounter all of your old party member even ones you've killed. You can even ask them "Didn't I kill you before?". So this is nothing new from the Bioware guys.

BiscuitTrouser:

Freechoice:
Decapitation was merely a setback.

DIdnt seem to bother my party members the hundreds of times it happened to them and they got revived. People seem to forget a key mechanic in this game is the ability to raise the recently dead. Also you murdered a priestess in front of a holy icon. Deffinantly gonna see some divine intervention there.

Oh you with your cute little "logic" and "explanations".
Of course Bioware won´t think of a good way to adress continuitiy problems such as character deaths in-game.
Because, as you may have forgotten, they are moronic and utterly talentless hacks, that cannot write a single coherent sentence and everything they say can, and indeed must, be interepreted in the single most negative way possible.
Because, you know, they have released a vaguely rushed and not universially loved game this year.
And if that is not enough to instantly jump onto every single f*cking utterance made by an employee of a studio and use the opportunity to insult them,
what, my good man, is ?

Nigh Invulnerable:

Chairman Miaow:

Nigh Invulnerable:

Typing in all caps and saying "I'm right and you are wrong" does not make it so. Apostrophe needed. :P

OT: sounds like the writer have heard of a Raise Dead spell.

Have you missed the joke or were you just taking advantage of the opportunity to be a grammar/punctuation nazi?

:P typically means I'm kidding around. However, it is entirely possible I may have missed whatever joke you're referring to, as I do not live on the Internet like some friends of mine.

The joke where he is talking about owning up to your mistakes and then refuses to own up to his own.

Ren3004:
Decapitation? Pfft, it's just a fleshwound.

Kinda reminds me of this:

Specifically from 1:25 onwards

Knight: Tis but a scratch!
Arthur: A scartch? Your arm's off!

Bioware must have watched heaps of Monty Python when writing DA2...

EDIT: In fact if it played out anything like this, Dragon Age would be overall improved by about 200%!

I hate that so much; weren't they touting "player choice" as this whole big thing?
What if I want to fuck your narrative and everyone's schemes up and make the world my own?

Booze Zombie:
I hate that so much; weren't they touting "player choice" as this whole big thing?
What if I want to fuck your narrative and everyone's schemes up and make the world my own?

I dunno,
write a book ?
Because in any story-driven game, what you can do is always and will always be limited by what the writers anticipated and designed, i.e. the narrative.

Jaded Scribe:

While she didn't play that major of a role in DA2, it's pretty clear she's going to play a major role in DA3. As for providing the option, they clearly weren't originally planning on having her come back in that capacity.

Again, there was hand-waving involved with Anders/Justice, a little handwaving in Awakening allowing you to import a dead warden.

These things come up. It is incredibly difficult to progress with a series with this many choices if you don't have the entire series planned out up front (which is very rare) without a little hand-waving.

It's very easy to play arm-chair quarterback and say they just used poor writing, etc. But you don't know what was discussed in their meetings, how they decided it would work, etc.

Plus, again, it's possible that one of the other posters is wrong about the beheading part, making it easier to say "you thought she was dead, but she wasn't".

I'm not saying it couldn't be handled better, but of all the things to nerdrage about, you pick this?

This. (applause)

I would just have to add, that in regards to the apparent cohesiveness of ME in regards to DA, Dragon Age Origins had the feel of a one off thing, whereas ME was seemingly planned like a trilogy all the time. in ME, it's clearly defined and binary who lives and who dies, and in what given situation. Dragon Age 2 is not a sequel, despite the number, it's a different story in the same universe. If anything, relied a bit too much on cameos, but playing through I do feel like DA:O is actually Dragon Age zero and the real stories of Thedas start with Hawke, as they're certainly giving it that direction.

TheAmazingHobo:
I dunno,
write a book ?
Because in any story-driven game, what you can do is always and will always be limited by what the writers anticipated and designed, i.e. the narrative.

It's a shame we haven't reached the point where there's a "fuck the narrative" option and you can just shoot everyone and take over the world like a power-hungry bastard.

It's also interesting to note that no such outcries apply to Minsc, Edwin or Xzar's magically rising from their graves on BG II, where a canon story was applied independent of the backstory of the second.

But THAT game, oh man, Rpg that was all about CHOICE.

Internet Kraken:
Though I haven't played the game myself, this is just going on what other people have said. I think if Bioware had actually addressed how Lelianna was present or foreshadowed it somehow in the original nobody would be bothered by this. Or better yet, don't shove a character from the old game into the new one when it can create these problems. The fact that they make no attempt to do this doesn't result in the player being curious about her existence but rather confused.

She's only in it briefly, it's very much meant to be a reveal not a full cameo that must be justified wholly and completely.

SuperChurl:
Sorry, but to me the unexplained cameos of previously-thought-deceased Leliana and Zevran just smacked more of lazy writing than of a desire to set up a further narrative. I think if BioWare had an explanation for their appearance they would have given it in-game--though, granted, there wouldn't be much of a canonical reason to explain their survival/resurrection to a bunch of strangers...

Much as I love BioWare I'm pretty reluctant to expect too much from their cross-game continuity at this point. It's impressive that they're trying it, but--as hard as it must be to write and program--the results thus far haven't exactly been inspiring. All but the absolute biggest decisions from the first Mass Effect were resolved in the second with "thanks for completing that side quest!" emails.

I mean, yeah, it's totally possible that BioWare is coming up with an actual plot to revive our potentially deceased party members beyond an irate forum handwave--and considering how much they seem willing to change their games based on their fans' reactions that doesn't seem like too unlikely. But I ain't holdin' my breath just yet.

Leliana is the only one that shows up even if you killed her. For instance if you killed Zevran, you should not get the Murder of Crows mission. I guess I am simply not so quick to damn them over not fully explaining a character who is in the game less for less than 30 seconds, though I've been told she is also in the Exiled Prince which I don't have.

While I overall enjoyed the game, I had some legitamte problems with it. I don't consider this to be one of them unless they forget to explain it later.

Dragon Age has always been terrible at continuity. The DLC for Origins revived my character without explaining why or anyone acknowledging what had happened.

Honestly, I don't see why this franchise is so popular. It's getting near-laughable.

secretsantaone:

Jaded Scribe:
Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.

And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

They specifically said you can still revive someone if their soul stays with the body, so she might of made a deal with a demon to stay with the body until someone can bring the body back, there is plenty of room in the lore to keep her alive.

secretsantaone:
image

David Gaider, lead writer on Dragon Age 2, has declared that being 'dead' isn't such a big deal in Dragon Age 2.

Apparently Leliana was just pretending when I chopped her head off. Alrighty then.

This seems a bit contradictary, especially considering Bioware had been playing up the 'big choices that matter' in regards to their games and especially especially in how they didn't pull this in Mass Effect 2. Wrex STAYED dead.

Seems like a big retcon cover to me. Thoughts?

Source: http://social.bioware.com/%20http:/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6589945/2

SuperChurl:

Slycne:

SuperChurl:
Will BioWare commit to that level of depth? If the currently discussed situation is any indicator, prooooobably not. Easy way out that preserves writers' beloved characters for the winnnnn!

Wait how has it been indicator that they are not trying to achieve that? Gaider flat out said that if you made the choice of killing her that it still happened.

Sorry, but to me the unexplained cameos of previously-thought-deceased Leliana and Zevran just smacked more of lazy writing than of a desire to set up a further narrative. I think if BioWare had an explanation for their appearance they would have given it in-game--though, granted, there wouldn't be much of a canonical reason to explain their survival/resurrection to a bunch of strangers...

Much as I love BioWare I'm pretty reluctant to expect too much from their cross-game continuity at this point. It's impressive that they're trying it, but--as hard as it must be to write and program--the results thus far haven't exactly been inspiring. All but the absolute biggest decisions from the first Mass Effect were resolved in the second with "thanks for completing that side quest!" emails.

I mean, yeah, it's totally possible that BioWare is coming up with an actual plot to revive our potentially deceased party members beyond an irate forum handwave--and considering how much they seem willing to change their games based on their fans' reactions that doesn't seem like too unlikely. But I ain't holdin' my breath just yet.

It's a retcon only if you yourself killed her, because it was an option in a choice based game. If the official canon states that that didn't happen (which would make sense because killing Leliana is an evil act, and she's the pure one, I would imagine the official canon of DAO would be that your character was good (SHOCK HORROR!)). I would imagine most people didn't kill her, and it wasn't "Supposed" to happen in the over all story.

The reason this happens is because there isn't a method of save continuity across games like there is in Mass Effect, which is an overall trilogy focusing on Shepard and Co, Dragon Age on the other hand is a collection of stories in the Dragon Age universe, not an over all arching plot. Just because YOU killed lianna that doesn't make the writers bad or being stupid, because I would also imagine the official lore doesn't involve you killing Alister and taking on-board Lohan either. Yeah it's a bit immersion breaking if you personally killed Lilana but if the writers have decided canon-conicly she was to not be killed by the hero, then that's their choice, Much the same as Alistair not being beheaded before the final act.

Okay maybe they shouldn't have given you the option to kill her, but I imagine DAO was supposed to be a one off, which is why DA2 is so different to the first, and they had to fill in the unexpected sequal stories. It's not a plot hole.

I killed Minsc and the thief girl (I forget her name) in BG 1, but they were there in BG2, zomg FUCK YOU BIOWARE YOU SUCK! YOU'RE LAZY WRITERS! Because in the canon the hero didn't decide to be a complete evil bastard and murder his party in cold blood.

Take Prince of Persia two, there's an ending where you fail to succeed, and then the third one, you do succeed! ZOMG BAD WRITING! In a game with multiple endings, where a sequal exists the game designers have to choose one of the endings to use as canon, it's not a hard concept.

Even ignoring all that. This is a universe where people wield magic for fuck sake, it's entirely plausible the gods bought her back for trying to protect the urn, or a family member or ex lover recovered her body and got a priest to ressurect her, and now is looking for revenge against the main character or DAO.

image

It explains EVERYTHING!

Things like this are why some people always want a "canon" version of events. To me, this is just more evidence the game was rushed. They could have had someone else play the sister in DA2. Could have even kept the lilianna voice over. Just cover her face or whatever with a hood.

1) You could kill Leliana?
2) WHY WOULD YOU KILL LELIANA?!
3) She's still at the end of DA2 if you kill her with your own hands in DAO?
4) Jesus fucking Christ, you'd think BioWare of all people would account for that, and realise they're making games that should unfold the way we want.
5) And I thought her comment about two unrelated people "disappearing" (my Warden died and she was banging him, and attended his funeral...) not being a coincidence was rather lazy, but this is rather ridiculous.

Oh, and the official canon argument above me is bullshit. Even KotOR 2 (I know it was made by Obsidian, just need a close example) had a rudimentary system for implementing your own continuity.

Why is this a big deal? Games do this ALL THE TIME.

And to be frank, I would rather a writer break canon and tell the story they wanted to tell, than restrict themselves because something MIGHT have happened in a previous game.

Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect. In ME we're expecting total congruity because it's a directly continuing story, that's ME's raison d'être. But DA is more relaxed, with multiple protagonists and multiple settings, why shouldn't there be some blurring around the edges?

Not even the canon-ific Star Trek can always keep its story straight; there are retcons all over the place in that beast of a canon.

And ultimately, if it bothers you, use your imagination. DA is a world of magic. Work it out. Maybe the writers even intend to reveal her as being revived for some unknown purpose etc. But probably not. Is it worth getting knickers in a twist over?

Jaded Scribe:
Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.

And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

Except that you can also stick a knife in Genitivi's head as well. I look forward to the in-game explanation of how she survived when we reach DA3.

EvilPicnic:
Why is this a big deal? Games do this ALL THE TIME.

And to be frank, I would rather a writer break canon and tell the story they wanted to tell, than restrict themselves because something MIGHT have happened in a previous game.

Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect. In ME we're expecting total congruity because it's a directly continuing story, that's ME's raison d'être. But DA is more relaxed, with multiple protagonists and multiple settings, why shouldn't there be some blurring around the edges?

Not even the canon-ific Star Trek can always keep its story straight; there are retcons all over the place in that beast of a canon.

And ultimately, if it bothers you, use your imagination. DA is a world of magic. Work it out. Maybe the writers even intend to reveal her as being revived for some unknown purpose etc. But probably not. Is it worth getting knickers in a twist over?

If this were true, why would they use the save import feature at all?

Given where liliana would have supposedly "died" in DAO, it would be actually pretty easy to explain here "miraculous" recovery, especially considering how big of an Andraste lover she was.

secretsantaone:

ZiggyE:
With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Ummm Fantasy game... anyone?

Seriously, its their IP they can do whatever they like with it, and as its fantasy that includes breaking the laws of nature and of physics. I mean hell thats the whole point of stuff like magic and gods and dragons and monsters in the fantasy genre, its to create an alternate and more exciting version of reality where this stuff can happen.

anyway, continuity between games doesn't really matter, so long as each game itself is coherent.

I can't believe I actually read this entire thread of vitriol and petty anger. I must be a masochist, or some sort of glutton for punishment. :\

She died in front of The Urn of Sacred Ashes.

I mean, c'mon.

EvilPicnic:
Why is this a big deal? Games do this ALL THE TIME.

And to be frank, I would rather a writer break canon and tell the story they wanted to tell, than restrict themselves because something MIGHT have happened in a previous game.

Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect. In ME we're expecting total congruity because it's a directly continuing story, that's ME's raison d'être. But DA is more relaxed, with multiple protagonists and multiple settings, why shouldn't there be some blurring around the edges?

Actually DA2 is worse, becuase its not fixed they could have made a different character instead of her coming back, just like Anders, so this is worse than ME and has no excuse,aside from laziness.

How on earth can anyone be 'self-entitled' about a game they spent £40 on?

How on earth is the unexplained revival of a major character for no good reason 'petty'?

How on earth could anyone say 'it's their game, they can do what they want with it!' when it's the consumer who actually finances and experiences the game?

Sigh. It's just a minor plot hole. I can see why it bothers someone but seriously? I didn't kill Leliana during any of my DA:O playthroughs and I can't see why I should have. She was a cool character. And why on earth would I side with the cultists in that mission(besides to get the achievement)?

OT The writers can't take everything that happened in DA:O into account. I think that there aren't many players that killed Leliana compared to those who didn't. And Zevran is in DA2 too, but if you killed him the first one, he isn't. It is not sloppy writing imo. It may have been a calculated decision or they could have simply forgotten it(though that is higly unlikely). No game is perfect and these things happen.

Has anyone thought that they never really planned for the possibility of a Dragon Age sequel? And when they did, they felt compelled to let players import Origin/Awakening choices after the success of ME2's system?

How many of you, in complete honesty, would have been disapointed/angry if this hadn't been included in the game, without knowing the plot holes this could potentially cause?

Dragon Age 2 should have been set in a completly different 'age', in the Sixth Blight, with all the details of the Fifth Blight lost into legends. No more plot holes.

secretsantaone:
especially especially in how they didn't pull this in Mass Effect 2. Wrex STAYED dead.

Seems like a big retcon cover to me. Thoughts?

Source: http://social.bioware.com/%20http:/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6589945/2

the biggest difference is that mass effect doesnt take place in an alternate universe with magic...

but i agree its a bit crap, not having killed leliana, i assumed when she turned up in my DA2, that if i HAD killed her, some other character would have filled her role, but apparantly not

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