David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

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this isnt my name:
Actually DA2 is worse, becuase its not fixed they could have made a different character instead of her coming back, just like Anders, so this is worse than ME and has no excuse,aside from laziness.

I disagree. BioWare wants DA to become a franchise, with more games coming after DA2. Remember this?:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/102599-BioWare-Mass-Effect-3-Story-Has-More-Than-a-Thousand-Variables

Mass Effect was always going to be a trilogy, with your actions affecting how the story plays out, and with each game the variables increase exponentially. Three games is a good cut-off point (for the main series at least) because this model simply won't work with a continuing series.

Say we get to a DA7. Imagine the amount of data recorded over the previous 6 games, and then the work to be put in to give everyone all potential in game options, all the multiple characters, new voice acting, even new areas... which many fans won't see because they made a different choice back in DA:O.

secretsantaone:
If this were true, why would they use the save import feature at all?

Because they can. This is a separate issue to 'every decision you make has been recorded for posterity and will somehow come back in the next game' It makes sense to include as many important events as you can. But that doesn't mean developers have infinite time or infinite money. In an ideal world...

StBishop:

MiracleOfSound:
Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

I'm noticing a lot of spoilers around these days.

I remember a time when spoiler tags were used to hide spoilers rather than images or YouTube clips.

That video was a version someone made without my knowledge.

EDIT: In otherwords.... you got a problem with the spoilers, talk to Mandalore.

Go look at my Youtube page, my version's only spoiler is that Shepard punches people.

poiumty:
Well, at least he planned 3 of them in advance. I think.

Nope, Lucas wrote the entirety of Empire/Jedi after the success of Star Wars. Vader, originally, was just one of the Empire's stooges. He added the family bit in later, but retconned himself. That's why Star Wars original crawl was this:

Trolldor:

McNinja:
What'chu know 'bout RPGs?

Not much, apparently. I left Leliana alive, so it was interesting to see her cameo in DA2.

This ain't The Witcher, you don't get choices that mean something.

(for the full effect, please watch Epic VFX Time with FreddieW and Epic Meal Time. Read the first line in EMTs voice, then the last in FreddieWs).

Eisenfaust:
well

but there he is in DA2, still alive... i didn't have a problem with it, presumably it was something to do with justice

Justice did bring back his first host to life, although not in the same way.

And once again with the Witcher nonsense.

Whats wrong with the Witcher? I thought it was great how if you happened to allow a certain people to have some goods and weapons, they might use those weapons to kill someone you need to talk to, making you have to gain information some other way. I never had that in Mass Effect 1, 2, or Dragon Age 2. DA: O, sort of, but not like that.

The_root_of_all_evil:

poiumty:
Well, at least he planned 3 of them in advance. I think.

Nope, Lucas wrote the entirety of Empire/Jedi after the success of Star Wars. Vader, originally, was just one of the Empire's stooges. He added the family bit in later, but retconned himself. That's why Star Wars original crawl was this:

Still, a few exceptions don't make the rule obsolete. Planning sequels in advance is much better than just thinking it up as you go along, generally.

Yeah? Check this shit out...

For my warrior Lady Hawke, I used the save from my rogue Warden in Origins, where Leliana was definitely alive, Zevran ended up swimming in a small lake of his own blood (double cross me, will you? bitch-ass, punk-ass, ho-ass elf...), Loghain and Alistair are "with the Maker", and Anders went back to the circle without having any idea who or what Justice is. And now Anders in particular is back talking about "trying to help his friend" and without the zippy comments. So, by everyone else's logic, wtf?

And for my rogue Lady Hawke (I like playing female characters, what of it?), I used my warrior Warden's playthrough, where again Leliana is alive and well. Zevran was ran off never to be seen again, Loghain is dead, Alistair gave Morrigan the business, and Justice was sent off to find itself back to the Fade. Again in the case of Anders, he's back talking about "helping his friend and worried how his anger may have twisted Justice". So, by everyone else's logic", wtf?

Someone answer me this question: did anyone on the development team say that the events in Origins would have a direct impact on DA2? If not, then who cares? Sure, it's a little jarring to have someone you supposedly ran through randomly show up again, but BioWare is not the immaculate developer everyone makes them out to be; even the critically acclaimed ME series has a ton of plot holes (sure, the focus was different, but the fact remains). The way I figure, if you find it that disconcerting, play something else - trade it in and grab the new Mortal Kombat or something. Maybe that will be worth your oh-so-precious dollars since this game obviously wasn't.

poiumty:
Still, a few exceptions don't make the rule obsolete. Planning sequels in advance is much better than just thinking it up as you go along, generally.

Lot more exceptions than you'd think. Lost, The X-Files, Dallas, Star Trek, Life On Mars, House, Battlestar Galatica, 24, Twin Peaks...

Without mentioning 99% of Marvel/DC's stuff.

Internet Kraken:
snip

A number of choices had an impact. Who you put on the throne, whether Alistair stays with the Warden or walks away (if Alistair had the wandering drunk epilogue, he appears in the Hanged Man. I think Zevran's cameo is a bug if you've killed him, and would be easy enough for them to fix. (It's also bugged to most of the romance dialogue, even if you turned him down). What you did to the Circle in Ferelden comes into play. Choices in Awakening come into play.

Besides, they gave something to that game. They inspired an emotional connection to that individual game. It seemed clear to me that BioWare wasn't sure if they were continuing this franchise, so they had decisions they later felt were a bad idea. Hence some differences in DA2 with where key decisions were placed, and the impact they could have on future chapters of the story.

Claiming their could now retcon everything, including Origin, gender, etc. comes off as Chicken Little syndrome.

They had a franchise take off better than they thought, were able to continue it, but had to make some changes to what happened in the first. So far, all of THREE decisions out of the.... how many did we make in Origins?... have been retconned.

Axolotl:
snip

Making those three choices fit in the context of the game does cost money. They have to develop content for every possible outcome.

Perhaps not in DA2, but DA3 seems to set it up as a joint effort between the Warden (who in every possible epilogue but 1 gets set up for another story anyways) and Hawke. This makes the story more interesting. After all, what do your choices matter if you never see the long-term consequences of them anyways?

Making a "good" game series is entirely subjective. I know a number of people who liked DA2 as much or more than DA:O, and are looking forward to DA3.

Mcoffey:
snip

Yes, I am making a lot of assumptions on DA3, but these are drawn directly from the setup for it in DA2. The chantry (at least a faction of it) is looking for both Hawke and the Warden because they command enough respect that they may be able to end the current conflict.

As for the retcon for dead Wardens, that should have been obvious to anyone with a drop of sense. In every scenario where the Warden lives, in both Origins and Awakening, their epilogue says something to the effect of "nobody believed this was the end of the Warden's story". This left it pretty clear to me that they were going to add more games that included the Warden.

I'm sure they also collected data on who brought back dead Warden's for Awakening to see how many people would choose to continue the Warden's story, but that's speculation on my part.

==========================================================================================
Most of your choices have been supported. So far, I have seen 3 decisions get retconned out of the tons that we have made, and one of those already has known bugs associated with it, and it is possible that showing up against player decisions is a bug.

But even if not, they have not invalidated every choice the player has made, and has gone out of their way to support most of them.

Here's the simple solution for you: Don't buy DA3 if you don't think your choices are going to get changed. Or just choose never to import your own saves.

I just hope they don't pull this shit in Mass Effect 2. one of the great things about mass effect is the persistence of it's world. Don't make a game where all of your characters can die but then bring them back in the sequel as pivotal characters.

Jaded Scribe:

Internet Kraken:
snip

A number of choices had an impact. Who you put on the throne, whether Alistair stays with the Warden or walks away (if Alistair had the wandering drunk epilogue, he appears in the Hanged Man. I think Zevran's cameo is a bug if you've killed him, and would be easy enough for them to fix. (It's also bugged to most of the romance dialogue, even if you turned him down). What you did to the Circle in Ferelden comes into play. Choices in Awakening come into play.

Besides, they gave something to that game. They inspired an emotional connection to that individual game. It seemed clear to me that BioWare wasn't sure if they were continuing this franchise, so they had decisions they later felt were a bad idea. Hence some differences in DA2 with where key decisions were placed, and the impact they could have on future chapters of the story.

Claiming their could now retcon everything, including Origin, gender, etc. comes off as Chicken Little syndrome.

They had a franchise take off better than they thought, were able to continue it, but had to make some changes to what happened in the first. So far, all of THREE decisions out of the.... how many did we make in Origins?... have been retconned.

How does any of this address my point? Just becuase some choices have impact doesn't excuse the fact that many of the significant ones don't. The fact that Bioware didn't plan for a sequel (which is bullshit. It's pretty obvious they set up the game with a sequel in mind) isn't an excuse either. Now again I haven't played Dragonage 2, but from what I've heard it has these same problems just like Mass Effect 2. Bioware needs to stop giving us so many choices then rendering some of them inconsequential. Making the player think their choice has an impact on the story and then doing the opposite is a pretty cheap trick and is definitely not indicative of the quality writing Bioware wants people to associate with their game.

I could list dozens of choices in Mass Effect that felt like they had no impact on Mass Effect 2. I'm guessing the same can be said of Dragon Age 2.

Internet Kraken:

Jaded Scribe:

Internet Kraken:
snip

A number of choices had an impact. Who you put on the throne, whether Alistair stays with the Warden or walks away (if Alistair had the wandering drunk epilogue, he appears in the Hanged Man. I think Zevran's cameo is a bug if you've killed him, and would be easy enough for them to fix. (It's also bugged to most of the romance dialogue, even if you turned him down). What you did to the Circle in Ferelden comes into play. Choices in Awakening come into play.

Besides, they gave something to that game. They inspired an emotional connection to that individual game. It seemed clear to me that BioWare wasn't sure if they were continuing this franchise, so they had decisions they later felt were a bad idea. Hence some differences in DA2 with where key decisions were placed, and the impact they could have on future chapters of the story.

Claiming their could now retcon everything, including Origin, gender, etc. comes off as Chicken Little syndrome.

They had a franchise take off better than they thought, were able to continue it, but had to make some changes to what happened in the first. So far, all of THREE decisions out of the.... how many did we make in Origins?... have been retconned.

How does any of this address my point? Just becuase some choices have impact doesn't excuse the fact that many of the significant ones don't. The fact that Bioware didn't plan for a sequel (which is bullshit. It's pretty obvious they set up the game with a sequel in mind) isn't an excuse either. Now again I haven't played Dragonage 2, but from what I've heard it has these same problems just like Mass Effect 2. Bioware needs to stop giving us so many choices then rendering some of them inconsequential. Making the player think their choice has an impact on the story and then doing the opposite is a pretty cheap trick and is definitely not indicative of the quality writing Bioware wants people to associate with their game.

I could list dozens of choices in Mass Effect that felt like they had no impact on Mass Effect 2. I'm guessing the same can be said of Dragon Age 2.

You haven't even played it?

then don't you think it's a little unfair to sit their and pass judgment when you haven't played it.

Sometimes the direction of a story changes. I think telling a developer "You're never allowed to retcon anything. You should not give us any choices that could ever be changed as the series evolves." is unreasonable. Things change. While they may have been ready for a sequel, it is HIGHLY unlikely the final draft of DA2 was written before DA:O came out.

All this crying is going to do is discourage developers from ever giving the player choices that could impact a game. A fanbase who is so rigid and can't give an inch is going to encourage more and more linear storylines with no emotional connection to the story.

SirBryghtside:
Wow... that has to have been taken out of context. There is no other way that makes sense :O

RedEyesBlackGamer:

MiracleOfSound:
Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.

I'm playing through it now. There shouldn't be a cutoff point, that's ridiculous. Think of all the old, classic games you haven't played and think what it'd be like to have the WHOLE story ruined for you. Case in point: FF7.

The whole story isn't ruined. And hardly anyone has a dead Wrex on their file. That should tell you something.

Jaded Scribe:

Internet Kraken:
snip

A number of choices had an impact. Who you put on the throne, whether Alistair stays with the Warden or walks away (if Alistair had the wandering drunk epilogue, he appears in the Hanged Man. I think Zevran's cameo is a bug if you've killed him, and would be easy enough for them to fix. (It's also bugged to most of the romance dialogue, even if you turned him down). What you did to the Circle in Ferelden comes into play. Choices in Awakening come into play.

Besides, they gave something to that game. They inspired an emotional connection to that individual game. It seemed clear to me that BioWare wasn't sure if they were continuing this franchise, so they had decisions they later felt were a bad idea. Hence some differences in DA2 with where key decisions were placed, and the impact they could have on future chapters of the story.

Claiming their could now retcon everything, including Origin, gender, etc. comes off as Chicken Little syndrome.

They had a franchise take off better than they thought, were able to continue it, but had to make some changes to what happened in the first. So far, all of THREE decisions out of the.... how many did we make in Origins?... have been retconned.

Axolotl:
snip

Making those three choices fit in the context of the game does cost money. They have to develop content for every possible outcome.

Perhaps not in DA2, but DA3 seems to set it up as a joint effort between the Warden (who in every possible epilogue but 1 gets set up for another story anyways) and Hawke. This makes the story more interesting. After all, what do your choices matter if you never see the long-term consequences of them anyways?

Making a "good" game series is entirely subjective. I know a number of people who liked DA2 as much or more than DA:O, and are looking forward to DA3.

Mcoffey:
snip

Yes, I am making a lot of assumptions on DA3, but these are drawn directly from the setup for it in DA2. The chantry (at least a faction of it) is looking for both Hawke and the Warden because they command enough respect that they may be able to end the current conflict.

As for the retcon for dead Wardens, that should have been obvious to anyone with a drop of sense. In every scenario where the Warden lives, in both Origins and Awakening, their epilogue says something to the effect of "nobody believed this was the end of the Warden's story". This left it pretty clear to me that they were going to add more games that included the Warden.

I'm sure they also collected data on who brought back dead Warden's for Awakening to see how many people would choose to continue the Warden's story, but that's speculation on my part.

==========================================================================================
Most of your choices have been supported. So far, I have seen 3 decisions get retconned out of the tons that we have made, and one of those already has known bugs associated with it, and it is possible that showing up against player decisions is a bug.

But even if not, they have not invalidated every choice the player has made, and has gone out of their way to support most of them.

Here's the simple solution for you: Don't buy DA3 if you don't think your choices are going to get changed. Or just choose never to import your own saves.

If they can decide one of your decisions is "inconvenient", then all of them are fair game. Will you still not mind when they take liberties with the decisions you personally care about?

"We need the werewolves for DA3, ooh, but some people might have killed them. Not anymore!"

"Awww we need the the Dragon Cult to fly in with big explosions and fireballs in DA3 but people might have destroyed the cult! Welllll...."

"Dammit, we want the Warden to be a human male, but some people were a bunch of other annoying things! Well who cares what they did."

Once again: If Bioware cant handle doing save transfers then they shouldn't be doing it.

Slycne:

SuperChurl:
Will BioWare commit to that level of depth? If the currently discussed situation is any indicator, prooooobably not. Easy way out that preserves writers' beloved characters for the winnnnn!

Wait how has it been indicator that they are not trying to achieve that? Gaider flat out said that if you made the choice of killing her that it still happened.

If I had choosen to kill Leliana, my first thought when seeing her wouldn't have been "omg plot error" *post on the forums, it would have been "crap, how is she still alive?". Or are we all so curmudgeon that we refuse to let a game surprise us?

Whats wrong with the Witcher?

What's wrong with the Witcher is that it's a mediocre game -with its own slew of problems, mind you- that nobody seemed to care about or give a second thought to. Yet the very moment Dragon Age 2 came out and everyone started screaming and crapping their pants about how supposedly horrid it was, every single one of those detractors turned the Witcher and its sequel into end-all-be-all buzzwords that somehow simultaneously stand for everything good and proper in RPGs while being proof that DA2 is shit.

Generally speaking, at this point in time whenever anyone brings up the Witcher as an argument against DA2, their thoughts and opinions can be safely discounted.

Mcoffey:

Jaded Scribe:

Internet Kraken:
snip

A number of choices had an impact. Who you put on the throne, whether Alistair stays with the Warden or walks away (if Alistair had the wandering drunk epilogue, he appears in the Hanged Man. I think Zevran's cameo is a bug if you've killed him, and would be easy enough for them to fix. (It's also bugged to most of the romance dialogue, even if you turned him down). What you did to the Circle in Ferelden comes into play. Choices in Awakening come into play.

Besides, they gave something to that game. They inspired an emotional connection to that individual game. It seemed clear to me that BioWare wasn't sure if they were continuing this franchise, so they had decisions they later felt were a bad idea. Hence some differences in DA2 with where key decisions were placed, and the impact they could have on future chapters of the story.

Claiming their could now retcon everything, including Origin, gender, etc. comes off as Chicken Little syndrome.

They had a franchise take off better than they thought, were able to continue it, but had to make some changes to what happened in the first. So far, all of THREE decisions out of the.... how many did we make in Origins?... have been retconned.

Axolotl:
snip

Making those three choices fit in the context of the game does cost money. They have to develop content for every possible outcome.

Perhaps not in DA2, but DA3 seems to set it up as a joint effort between the Warden (who in every possible epilogue but 1 gets set up for another story anyways) and Hawke. This makes the story more interesting. After all, what do your choices matter if you never see the long-term consequences of them anyways?

Making a "good" game series is entirely subjective. I know a number of people who liked DA2 as much or more than DA:O, and are looking forward to DA3.

Mcoffey:
snip

Yes, I am making a lot of assumptions on DA3, but these are drawn directly from the setup for it in DA2. The chantry (at least a faction of it) is looking for both Hawke and the Warden because they command enough respect that they may be able to end the current conflict.

As for the retcon for dead Wardens, that should have been obvious to anyone with a drop of sense. In every scenario where the Warden lives, in both Origins and Awakening, their epilogue says something to the effect of "nobody believed this was the end of the Warden's story". This left it pretty clear to me that they were going to add more games that included the Warden.

I'm sure they also collected data on who brought back dead Warden's for Awakening to see how many people would choose to continue the Warden's story, but that's speculation on my part.

==========================================================================================
Most of your choices have been supported. So far, I have seen 3 decisions get retconned out of the tons that we have made, and one of those already has known bugs associated with it, and it is possible that showing up against player decisions is a bug.

But even if not, they have not invalidated every choice the player has made, and has gone out of their way to support most of them.

Here's the simple solution for you: Don't buy DA3 if you don't think your choices are going to get changed. Or just choose never to import your own saves.

If they can decide one of your decisions is "inconvenient", then all of them are fair game. Will you still not mind when they take liberties with the decisions you personally care about?

"We need the werewolves for DA3, ooh, but some people might have killed them. Not anymore!"

"Awww we need the the Dragon Cult to fly in with big explosions and fireballs in DA3 but people might have destroyed the cult! Welllll...."

"Dammit, we want the Warden to be a human male, but some people were a bunch of other annoying things! Well who cares what they did."

Once again: If Bioware cant handle doing save transfers then they shouldn't be doing it.

If it gives a good story, then I could go with my changes being retconned. But saying "If they retcon any choice, they should remove all choice and import abilities ever." is unreasonable to me.

MatsVS:
I can't believe I actually read this entire thread of vitriol and petty anger. I must be a masochist, or some sort of glutton for punishment. :\

She died in front of The Urn of Sacred Ashes.

I mean, c'mon.

Zakarath:
Protip: Its better to own your mistakes than it is to just call the person pointing them out wrong.

(And if anyone says that I need an apostrophe in "Its" then SHUT UP YOU ARE WRONG.)

... I may be missing some hilarious joke but "it's" is it is. "Its" is possessive.

OT: Having never played DA:O is there actually an option to cut off her head or does she like fall off a cliff never to be seen again?

SirBryghtside:
Wow... that has to have been taken out of context. There is no other way that makes sense :O

RedEyesBlackGamer:

MiracleOfSound:
Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.

I'm playing through it now. There shouldn't be a cutoff point, that's ridiculous. Think of all the old, classic games you haven't played and think what it'd be like to have the WHOLE story ruined for you. Case in point: FF7.

Rosebud was his childhood sled.

Cheesepower5:
Ooh, how about this. It's all being narrated by Varric, so he's wrong.

There, hand-waved again. There's so many ways to dismiss this it's ridiculous(granted, DA3 will most likely prove this 100% wrong.)

The fact is we're just demanding a lot from Bioware. Getting every possibility from DAO to transfer would be crazy amounts of work. Hell, I've killed Zevran and he's in DA2.

If it's to much work then they shouldn't have had the option in the first place. All my choices, (Even the very tiny ones) were present in Mass effect 2 from Mass Effect 1. Things getting glanced over like that is proof that DOA: 2 was badly rushed.

Not saying I hate the game, (After all I played it almost 24 hours straight) but it could have been so very much more had they waited a few more months to release it.

It's Gaider. And it's Bioware. What did you expect.

RedEyesBlackGamer:
snip

My point was simply that apparently when given proper cause people are willing to accept these kind of things. Leliana is merely revealed as a surprise rather than receiving a full cameo or extended narrative time, so I don't get why everyone is getting so bent out of shape that it wasn't fully revealed down to every intricate detail.

I'm just glad this David Gaider isn't writing for ME3. I'd say, with a few small exceptions that were acknolaged as bugs, (Connrad Viner to springs to mind.) they pretty much reshape ME2 to fit your ME1 file save farily perfectly. Now granted, this will be much tricker in ME3 with how many different plot points and veriables there will be, but, so far Mac Walters seems up to the task. Time will tell.

And, bet you anything, the reason David keeps droping the whole "we never offered an explination" for the womens revivial is because they working to save face behind the sceens and will have some kind of explanation for it in a DLC eventually. Or they'll just leave it a "mystery". Gee. If it was a screw up, grow a pair and admit it. If not.. well, it'd be hard to convince anyone at this point... but if that is the case, we'll prolly see an explantion in a DLC.

seems to me like a reasonably smart man just trying to blag a massive flaw in the game, I dont have the game an after seeing some of the stuff he has put up on those forums an some of the crap he has come out with, an some of the justifications for some of the stupid things that have been put in it I'm never buying that game ....

Slycne:

RedEyesBlackGamer:
snip

My point was simply that apparently when given proper cause people are willing to accept these kind of things. Leliana is merely revealed as a surprise rather than receiving a full cameo or extended narrative time, so I don't get why everyone is getting so bent out of shape that it wasn't fully revealed down to every intricate detail.

Still, she is human, not a near immortal witch. Resurrection spells are not part of the DA lore. The Urn of Sacred Ashes is ruined (The reason she turns on you). It is not that people weren't anticipating it like with Flemeth. It is just impossible.

RedEyesBlackGamer:
I never knew Bioware followed comic book logic.

Everything, including real life history, follows comic book logic. xD

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Fair point, but perhaps there is some latent holiness or whatever in the ruins which housed the ashes for centuries. Perhaps the person who reached the ashes before you accidentally sneezed in the ashes after helping themselves to a pinch, coating the chamber in a fine layer of Andraste. Or perhaps simply squeezing some drops of dragon into the damn urn doesn't really ruin the ashes.

The fact of the matter is, the metaphysics of the Dragon Age universe have never been explained in a satisfactory matter. Spewing anger towards Bioware before the story is told to completion is better left to simpletons, while people genuinely interested in the story they are trying to tell are better off delaying judgement.

Well that is just fucking piss poor.

The_root_of_all_evil:

poiumty:
Well, at least he planned 3 of them in advance. I think.

Nope, Lucas wrote the entirety of Empire/Jedi after the success of Star Wars. Vader, originally, was just one of the Empire's stooges. He added the family bit in later, but retconned himself. That's why Star Wars original crawl was this:

Wait, that was always the crawl. Wasn't it? What did they change it to?

RedEyesBlackGamer:
Still, she is human, not a near immortal witch. Resurrection spells are not part of the DA lore. The Urn of Sacred Ashes is ruined (The reason she turns on you). It is not that people weren't anticipating it like with Flemeth. It is just impossible.

Really it's a matter of providing proper suspension of disbelief. Certainly going "Surprise! We had proper resurrection this whole time and forgot to use it to save the King or anyone else". wouldn't go over very well, but I can think of at least a few ways it could be more cleverly explained.

poiumty:

The_root_of_all_evil:

poiumty:
Well, at least he planned 3 of them in advance. I think.

Nope, Lucas wrote the entirety of Empire/Jedi after the success of Star Wars. Vader, originally, was just one of the Empire's stooges. He added the family bit in later, but retconned himself. That's why Star Wars original crawl was this:

Still, a few exceptions don't make the rule obsolete. Planning sequels in advance is much better than just thinking it up as you go along, generally.

I dont get why that meens he wrote it all after the success of new hope, I know thats bull anyway cauase I know for a fact he had written the entire back story of 1-3 and had already written empire an jedi.

Otherwise how could he have known to sign all the actors on for the 3 movies before they were made? thats why they made jack all out of the movies themselves an why those who did't make a acting career out of them films tour like crazy at conventions to make money. I remember reading a quote from mark hamil which was something like "we got paid fuck all" answer that, pretty sure if u look hard enough you can find tht interveiw on the net of him saying they got signed on for all 3 films at the start an thats why they got shafted money wise despite the unreal amount they made. One of the main reasons that when actors sign on for sequels nowdays they reserve the right to negotiate the fee.

AugustFall:

Zakarath:
Protip: Its better to own your mistakes than it is to just call the person pointing them out wrong.

(And if anyone says that I need an apostrophe in "Its" then SHUT UP YOU ARE WRONG.)

... I may be missing some hilarious joke but "it's" is it is. "Its" is possessive.

OT: Having never played DA:O is there actually an option to cut off her head or does she like fall off a cliff never to be seen again?

Yeah, I am joking there. I know it's wrong.

Slycne:

RedEyesBlackGamer:
Still, she is human, not a near immortal witch. Resurrection spells are not part of the DA lore. The Urn of Sacred Ashes is ruined (The reason she turns on you). It is not that people weren't anticipating it like with Flemeth. It is just impossible.

Really it's a matter of providing proper suspension of disbelief. Certainly going "Surprise! We had proper resurrection this whole time and forgot to use it to save the King or anyone else". wouldn't go over very well, but I can think of at least a few ways it could be more cleverly explained.

Exactly. I posted this earlier on, but it was buried under a landslide of rage. That particular example happened in EVERY play-through, so Leliana is hardly unique. Plus, wouldn't a Seeker

be an interesting problem for the Chantry to deal with?

Edit: Double post, sorry.

Slycne:

RedEyesBlackGamer:
Still, she is human, not a near immortal witch. Resurrection spells are not part of the DA lore. The Urn of Sacred Ashes is ruined (The reason she turns on you). It is not that people weren't anticipating it like with Flemeth. It is just impossible.

Really it's a matter of providing proper suspension of disbelief. Certainly going "Surprise! We had proper resurrection this whole time and forgot to use it to save the King or anyone else". wouldn't go over very well, but I can think of at least a few ways it could be more cleverly explained.

Look, I don't want to argue. I'll end with this. Wynne is a mage, meaning she has a connection to the Fade. A lot can happen to a mage. Leliana is a normal human. I'm betting on a deus ex machina for an explanation.

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