David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

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Slycne:

RedEyesBlackGamer:
Still, she is human, not a near immortal witch. Resurrection spells are not part of the DA lore. The Urn of Sacred Ashes is ruined (The reason she turns on you). It is not that people weren't anticipating it like with Flemeth. It is just impossible.

Really it's a matter of providing proper suspension of disbelief. Certainly going "Surprise! We had proper resurrection this whole time and forgot to use it to save the King or anyone else". wouldn't go over very well, but I can think of at least a few ways it could be more cleverly explained.

Look, I don't want to argue. I'll end with this. Wynne is a mage, meaning she has a connection to the Fade. A lot can happen to a mage. Leliana is a normal human. I'm betting on a deus ex machina for an explanation.

Well I defiled the ashes with both Wynne and Leliana in my party. Maybe Wynne cast revival on her after I left? The wonder of spiritual healers.As for wynne well she has her spirit that saves her ass when dead so don't see the problem.

What I hate in cRPG is the "discrimination" btwn what can be ressurected and those that can't.My advice is not die in cutscenes :)

If a retcon has ruined your game, then your over-reacting.

Besides, it's never stated that the Leliana in DA2 is actually Leliana, I mean, sure same voice actor and looks kinda the same, but it's something that could easily be added into a 3rd game. Just throwing that out there.

BiscuitTrouser:

Freechoice:
Decapitation was merely a setback.

DIdnt seem to bother my party members the hundreds of times it happened to them and they got revived. People seem to forget a key mechanic in this game is the ability to raise the recently dead. Also you murdered a priestess in front of a holy icon. Deffinantly gonna see some divine intervention there.

Her demise accomplished nothing. Meredith will have you! You will drown in your own blood! The world shall burn!

Sir John the Net Knight:

Wait, that was always the crawl. Wasn't it? What did they change it to?

Original:


Post '81

Zakarath:
Protip: Its better to own your mistakes than it is to just call the person pointing them out wrong.

(And if anyone says that I need an apostrophe in "Its" then SHUT UP YOU ARE WRONG.)

You need an apostrophe in "Its" because it's a contraction. You don't need it when it's possessive.

For example:

It's very fast. (contraction)

The car is known for its speed. (possessive)

Hexenwolf:

Zakarath:
Protip: Its better to own your mistakes than it is to just call the person pointing them out wrong.

(And if anyone says that I need an apostrophe in "Its" then SHUT UP YOU ARE WRONG.)

You need an apostrophe in "Its" because it's a contraction. You don't need it when it's possessive.

For example:

It's very fast. (contraction)

The car is known for its speed. (possessive)

....That was the joke.

but if what you're insisting on is "I think X is dead so I should never see them again no matter what"... well, prepare to be dissapointed.

That became painfully obvious when they crammed in as many DA:O characters into the sequel as possible. The king of Ferelden crossed continents and requested a visit, after which I still didn't have a clue why he was here.

Hexenwolf:

Zakarath:
Protip: Its better to own your mistakes than it is to just call the person pointing them out wrong.

(And if anyone says that I need an apostrophe in "Its" then SHUT UP YOU ARE WRONG.)

You need an apostrophe in "Its" because it's a contraction. You don't need it when it's possessive.

For example:

It's very fast. (contraction)

The car is known for its speed. (possessive)

Yeah, I know. Its a joke.
-------------------(^^and that's a troll)

Samechiel:
their thoughts and opinions can be safely discounted.

....Yeah, you can't really say that. Just because others have used the comparison to less than stellar effect does not mean that meaningfull comparisons cannot be made.

There are some similarities. I'm saving judgment until I finish it, but from what I've seen, the Witcher does do some things better than DA2. It does some things worse, too.

The_root_of_all_evil:

poiumty:
Still, a few exceptions don't make the rule obsolete. Planning sequels in advance is much better than just thinking it up as you go along, generally.

Lot more exceptions than you'd think. Lost, The X-Files, Dallas, Star Trek, Life On Mars, House, Battlestar Galatica, 24, Twin Peaks...

Without mentioning 99% of Marvel/DC's stuff.

So what are you trying to say here? No matter how many exceptions there are, they're no proof that advance preparations don't circumvent this kind of story-wise dumbassery.

We really just killed her identical twin!!

poiumty:
So what are you trying to say here? No matter how many exceptions there are, they're no proof that advance preparations circumvent this kind of story-wise dumbassery.

I'm saying there's a lot of stuff written on the fly that doesn't even bother circumventing; and another load that try their hardest, but collapse. Back to the Future has huge gaping plot holes, but it's still awesome. Some dumbassery is just standard, it's just not making a drama out of it.
Who Shot Nice Guy Eddie?
What's in Marcel Wallace's briefcase?
Who actually hears him say "Rosebud"?
How does a Great White Shark blow up from swallowing an oxygen cannister?
and every time travel story ever.

Onyx Oblivion:
We really just killed her identical twin!!

No, we killed her and now her evil twin is masquerading around as her as part of her plan to take over the world! Next time on the Young and Dragonless.

The_root_of_all_evil:

poiumty:
So what are you trying to say here? No matter how many exceptions there are, they're no proof that advance preparations circumvent this kind of story-wise dumbassery.

I'm saying there's a lot of stuff written on the fly that doesn't even bother circumventing; and another load that try their hardest, but collapse. Back to the Future has huge gaping plot holes, but it's still awesome. Some dumbassery is just standard, it's just not making a drama out of it.
Who Shot Nice Guy Eddie?
What's in Marcel Wallace's briefcase?
Who actually hears him say "Rosebud"?
How does a Great White Shark blow up from swallowing an oxygen cannister?
and every time travel story ever.

Well, okay, I guess? Don't see how this is relevant to a mistake Bioware made twice (Mass Effect AND DA2), but okay.

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Onyx Oblivion:
We really just killed her identical twin!!

No, we killed her and now her evil twin is masquerading around as her as part of her plan to take over the world! Next time on the Young and Dragonless.

Evil twin ROBOT. Because it turns out that DA takes place on a planet in the ME universe!

poiumty:
Well, okay, I guess? Don't see how this is relevant to a mistake Bioware made twice (Mass Effect AND DA2), but okay.

First of all, have a whole bag-full of "A Wizard Did It" ready.
Secondly, NEVER reply to your critics. :)
Thirdly, write those plot-holes down on an index card and there's half your story for a DLC. :)

secretsantaone:

ZiggyE:
With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Well I haven't played DA2, but from what I've heard it is a 'framed narative', told by someone who likes to exaggerate to a person he doesn't necessarily like. So it doesn't matter if you kill her or not, Varric could just include her for shits and giggles.[1] And also, Hawke is from Lothering, and Varric knows Hawke, and Lelianna was in Lothering for a time. So Varric knowing about Lelianna isn't much of a stretch.

[1] Remember, I have't actually played, so if I'm missing something here, feel free to tell me.

Onyx Oblivion:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Onyx Oblivion:
We really just killed her identical twin!!

No, we killed her and now her evil twin is masquerading around as her as part of her plan to take over the world! Next time on the Young and Dragonless.

Evil twin ROBOT. Because it turns out that DA takes place on a planet in the ME universe!

Planted there by the Reapers! When she gets the signal she will open up the Mass Relay to Thedas! Only Hawke and the Warden can stop her now. Which is why she is searching for them to terminate them.

The_root_of_all_evil:

poiumty:
Well, okay, I guess? Don't see how this is relevant to a mistake Bioware made twice (Mass Effect AND DA2), but okay.

First of all, have a whole bag-full of "A Wizard Did It" ready.
Secondly, NEVER reply to your critics. :)
Thirdly, write those plot-holes down on an index card and there's half your story for a DLC. :)

DLC...the easier and more profitable way to cover plotholes. Instead of putting it in a video game novel adaption that no one reads.

"'Tis but a flesh wound!"

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Onyx Oblivion:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

No, we killed her and now her evil twin is masquerading around as her as part of her plan to take over the world! Next time on the Young and Dragonless.

Evil twin ROBOT. Because it turns out that DA takes place on a planet in the ME universe!

Planted there by the Reapers! When she gets the signal she will open up the Mass Relay to Thedas! Only Hawke and the Warden can stop her now. Which is why she is searching for them to terminate them.

And then she turns out to be a Biotic! And it's a Biotics vs Magic battle for Thedas!

Onyx Oblivion:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

Onyx Oblivion:
Evil twin ROBOT. Because it turns out that DA takes place on a planet in the ME universe!

Planted there by the Reapers! When she gets the signal she will open up the Mass Relay to Thedas! Only Hawke and the Warden can stop her now. Which is why she is searching for them to terminate them.

And then she turns out to be a Biotic! And it's a Biotics vs Magic battle for Thedas!

And the head of the Templars turns out to be the Illusive Man! Who was using the Circles to experiment with a fusion between magic and Mass Effect fields!

Why would anyone kill Leliana anyway? I'm sure there are players like that and I understand their frustrations but I'm glad their evil plan failed *sinister laugh*

Leliana is a normal human.

Demons and spirits can possess anyone, even dwarves; it's just terribly more difficult to do so without a blood mage helping them out. Or in, as the case may be. Thus, demons and spirits will almost always take the path of least resistance, i.e. mages.

Spangles:
Gaider's writing has been getting worse since the Kotor/Jade games, those were the telling points of his decline as a cohesive writer... He's been believing his own publicity too long, just because everyone and his dog has been saying that Bioware have the best writing. It's gotten to the point he thinks that gold flows from his pen, he's no longer objective about his prose and thinks that he can do no wrong.

He's now honestly unable to recognise just plain bad writing. Just because he is able to throw together any old justification for gaping plot holes and shoddy plot planning he thinks that he can excuse himself out of any situation, that's simply not true. What IS true is that his writing now is just plain sloppy and shoddy.

Bioware now are just a shadow of their former selves and becoming less relevant by the minute.

Wow, those are some pretty foreboding words coming from so new a member.

The only words similarly so harshly critical of this man would arise from all the hoopla surrounding the whole "Gay characters and David Gaider" incident.

Makes one wonder if a certain person would create a forum account simply to fan the fames of such a debacle.

Edit:

For the matter, I was under the impression that BioWare had done some of their best work yet with Mass Effect 2 and DAO. If sales and press have been any indication, now is BioWare's Golden Age rather than twilight years.

MiracleOfSound:

RedEyesBlackGamer:

MiracleOfSound:
Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.
Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

There is no

....

...ever.

Agreed. If someone hasn't played a game, telling them a significant part of the story is ALWAYS a spoiler.

The_root_of_all_evil:
Some dumbassery is just standard, it's just not making a drama out of it.
Who Shot Nice Guy Eddie?
What's in Marcel Wallace's briefcase?
Who actually hears him say "Rosebud"?
How does a Great White Shark blow up from swallowing an oxygen cannister?
and every time travel story ever.

Except for Primer (2004) xD.

I do agree with you, there's lots of 'dumb' writers out there, and sometimes they even make fun stories; still, there's no reason not to be offended by 'dumb' writing, or expect it not to be 'dumb'. And by 'dumb' I mean "bad".

Biosophilogical:

secretsantaone:

ZiggyE:
With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Well I haven't played DA2, but from what I've heard it is a 'framed narative', told by someone who likes to exaggerate to a person he doesn't necessarily like. So it doesn't matter if you kill her or not, Varric could just include her for shits and giggles.[1] And also, Hawke is from Lothering, and Varric knows Hawke, and Lelianna was in Lothering for a time. So Varric knowing about Lelianna isn't much of a stretch.

Nope. Leliana shows up after the story is told.

[1] Remember, I have't actually played, so if I'm missing something here, feel free to tell me.

secretsantaone:
How on earth can anyone be 'self-entitled' about a game they spent 40 on?

How on earth is the unexplained revival of a major character for no good reason 'petty'?

How on earth could anyone say 'it's their game, they can do what they want with it!' when it's the consumer who actually finances and experiences the game?

Because 40 Euroes is suddenly enough money to make you head project manager at Bioware? Buying a book you don't like doesn't mean you even should go and tell off the author because the ending you guessed was wrong and you liked yours better.

13lackfriday:
If sales and press have been any indication, now is BioWare's Golden Age rather than twilight years.

Sales mean nothing;
What the press says is mostly based on sale-predictions;
Sales are mostly based on what the press says;
And so, for instance, Black Ops won a best videogame award (voted by the public).
http://www.bafta.org/awards/video-games/video-games-awards-nominees-in-2010,1656,BA.html#jump15
The whole thing is essentially circular and has very little to do with quality.

My opinion is that Bioware is losing its charm because 1) they've been using their magic 'formula' for too long 2) they're making too much stuff at the same time... and getting sloppy.

I'll decide what dead is in my own good time Bioware!
Thank you very much!

13lackfriday:

Spangles:
Gaider's writing has been getting worse since the Kotor/Jade games, those were the telling points of his decline as a cohesive writer... He's been believing his own publicity too long, just because everyone and his dog has been saying that Bioware have the best writing. It's gotten to the point he thinks that gold flows from his pen, he's no longer objective about his prose and thinks that he can do no wrong.

He's now honestly unable to recognise just plain bad writing. Just because he is able to throw together any old justification for gaping plot holes and shoddy plot planning he thinks that he can excuse himself out of any situation, that's simply not true. What IS true is that his writing now is just plain sloppy and shoddy.

Bioware now are just a shadow of their former selves and becoming less relevant by the minute.

Wow, those are some pretty foreboding words coming from so new a member.

The only words similarly so harshly critical of this man would arise from all the hoopla surrounding the whole "Gay characters and David Gaider" incident.

Makes one wonder if a certain person would create a forum account simply to fan the fames of such a debacle.

Edit:

For the matter, I was under the impression that BioWare had done some of their best work yet with Mass Effect 2 and DAO. If sales and press have been any indication, now is BioWare's Golden Age rather than twilight years.

Wow.. that's pretty damned weak.. simply because you are so blinded by your own feelings about this 'writer' and the quality of his work you have to JUSTIFY your own insecurity by saying that I am actually creating more than one account to further my opinions... That's really quite dumb.

Oh, and BTW... No.

Cheesepower5:
Ooh, how about this. It's all being narrated by Varric, so he's wrong.

Hehe, I almost felt like saying that in some of the dragon age 2 hate threads about the changes and stuff.

Anyway, it's understandable to be annoyed that characters you kill can come back and there are plenty of inconsistencies between these two games' stories.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the writer(s?) were talking about stuff like this and just felt like playing the odds and expected more people think "Yay Leliana!" than "Wtf, I chopped her head off!?"

This whole importing decisions/events thing is an interesting novelty, but I really think people are expecting to much from it.

Edit:

ImprovizoR:
Why would anyone kill Leliana anyway?

This is definitely the bigger issue here.

Jaded Scribe:

You haven't even played it?

then don't you think it's a little unfair to sit their and pass judgment when you haven't played it.

First of all it's not unfair to pass judgment on a game just becuase you haven't played it. There are plenty of other ways to learn about a game's quality. But that doesn't actually matter right now. At the time of replying this thread was more about Bioware's writing overall than just Dragon Age 2. My complaints stem mostly from Mass Effect 2 and how choices were handled there.

Sometimes the direction of a story changes. I think telling a developer "You're never allowed to retcon anything. You should not give us any choices that could ever be changed as the series evolves." is unreasonable. Things change. While they may have been ready for a sequel, it is HIGHLY unlikely the final draft of DA2 was written before DA:O came out.

It is not unreasonable to demand that a company that prides itself on excellent storytelling an player choices not use retcons. If Bioware is going to tout themselves as great writers then they need to meet the standards that come with this. Part of that is not retconning out details of the story and nullifying player choices becuase they didn't plan ahead.

All this crying is going to do is discourage developers from ever giving the player choices that could impact a game. A fanbase who is so rigid and can't give an inch is going to encourage more and more linear storylines with no emotional connection to the story.

If the narrative has to be more linear to give people more choices that actually matter, then so be it. I don't want Bioware to throw a bunch of choices at me that don't actually matter. I'd much rather have a handful of choices that actually have significant impact rather than dozens that lead to no impact. There's no emotional connection to the story when Bioware just whitewashes many of your choices because they didn't plan ahead.

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