Is Bayonetta Sexist or empowering?
Hell Yes
13.3% (39)
13.3% (39)
Yeah
4.8% (14)
4.8% (14)
A little
9.2% (27)
9.2% (27)
Maybe
6.8% (20)
6.8% (20)
Dunno
13.6% (40)
13.6% (40)
Not at all
50.7% (149)
50.7% (149)
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Poll: Bayonetta Sexist?

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Is Bayonetta sexist? No.
Is Bayonetta sexy? Yes.
Is sexy sexist? No.

No more so than something like God of War is sexist in its depiction of men, which I don't consider it to be. So no, Bayonetta is not sexist. It's not as if it's saying ALL WOMEN MUST BE THIS WAY, in the same way that God of War doesn't say ALL MEN MUST BE THIS WAY. Pandering, yes, but sexist, no.

Can't decide. Too distracted by bouncy leatherclad digital ass.

Pandering, sure.

Sexist, not really.

Bayonetta is strongly characterized, and not just "for a videogame character."

Being sexy doesn't automatically negate everything else about a person.

I wouldn't go so far to say she's empowering to women. She's strong and independent and caring and blah blah blah... but she's too obviously fictional to be a real roll model.

Why can't she be neither?

0thello:
I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

Sexist is the wrong word.

"Women are only good for housework and breeding" is sexist.

"I know, let's make a game about a strong, fantastic female character whose clothes fly off every minute so that sexually frustrated manchildren can get off on it" is exploitation (in several senses). It uses a fantasy of liberated and available female sexuality to sell a product.

The former is outright harmful. The latter represents a pretty cynical attitude to selling a product, but the actual content is only really as bad as its effects. If the fantasy shapes how people view the real world, then it can be extremely harmful. We've all met guys who treat women as objects or consider themselves to have a right to behave voyeuristically or inappropriately because they're used to achieving sexual gratification with images or objects.

It's very easy nowadays to have 'sexual' experiences without having to negotiate consent with a real person, and thus it's hardly surprising that you end up with a whole load of guys (and it is largely guys, sadly) who can't adequately distinguish between interaction with fantasy and interaction with real people.

In this case, I don't know. While I find any game which panders to its viewers (assumed) male heterosexuality slightly irritating, I don't think it intrinsically harms anyone. At the same time people view reality very much through their fantasies, and to a certain extent controlling those fantasies means controlling people's real behaviour. So yeah.. jury out, I guess.

I'm not trying to scare you, little guy. Neither am I trying to prove anything.

You may not be trying to prove anything, but you certainly have proven your douchebaggery. Women are perfectly capable of defending themselves, we don't need "help" from people like you.

She's in-love with Luka Redgrave

You know, I never once got the impression that she held any romantic feelings for Luka. Taking the time-manipulation aspect into account, the extent of Bayonetta's feelings for Luka seem to be mild bemusement mixed with Platonic Big Brother Syndrome.

Which, honestly, I found terribly refreshing. When was the last time there was a primary female character that wasn't chained to a male protagonist as a love interest? Samus Aran pre Other M, Maya from Septerra Core?

scorptatious:

0thello:

AmrasCalmacil:

Behold, someone trying to be a big man on the interwebz.
Scary shit.

I'm not trying to scare you, little guy. Neither am I trying to prove anything.

I like how you keep calling him "little guy" when clearly he has a higher post count than you. :P

Ok.

evilthecat:
Sexist is the wrong word.

"Women are only good for housework and breeding" is sexist.

"I know, let's make a game about a strong, fantastic female character whose clothes fly off every minute so that sexually frustrated manchildren can get off on it" is exploitation (in several senses). It uses a fantasy of liberated and available female sexuality to sell a product.

The former is outright harmful. The latter is questionable in and of itself and represents a pretty cynical attitude to selling a product, but the actual content is only really as bad as its effects. If the fantasy shapes how people view the real world, then it can be extremely harmful. We've all met guys who treat women as objects or consider themselves to have a right to behave voyeuristically or inappropriately because they're used to achieving sexual gratification without having to negotiate consent with a real person.

The whole game is intentionally absurd (as I've mentioned before, it's Hideki Kamiya), so I felt the fanservice was going for laughs rather than erections. I suspect that taking the partial nudity and weird close-ups out of the context of the game is what makes it seem cynical and questionable, because every single aspect of the game is so over-the-top and deranged that it only makes sense that the fanservice would follow suit.

In a game like this, it would probably be more questionable if it were less intrusive, since it's been taken to such an extreme that it doesn't really register as titillation anymore. This is the kind of game that steals the motorcycle of fanservice, jump-starts it by flipping it off and rides it into space to go kill God.

If you have the time (and if you're reading this, I'm guessing you do), you should read Shimazaki's posts on the character designs too. Interesting stuff.

Part 1 - Bayonetta
Part 2 - Jeanne
Part 3 - Rodin and Enzo
Part 4 - Luka

Why yes, I am a fan of Bayonetta. Surprising, huh?

Dense_Electric:

0thello:
I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

...

Solstar100:
its jusr a terrible game thats a clone of many many many many ma... (you get the point) other like GOW but games, however i especially HATED the abuse of one of my favourite songs (Fly me to the moon) and wised to see the ratpack rise and destroy sega for heretic abuse of one of the last remaining bastions of unspoiled good music

(wow i've been ranting alot today)

I'm not sure if you're joking, I thought it had at least been accepted by the majority that in terms of gameplay and style Bayonetta is an innovative take on the beat-em-up genre, with not only some of the best set pieces that don't use quick-time events in a game, but easily one of the best combat systems...

In case you're being serious however, the lead designer on Bayonetta created Devil May Cry; the series God of War took a lot from [well, that and Rygar]. Bayonetta's version of Fly me to the moon is hilarious and suited the game perfectly.

As for the topic in question; I don't beleive it's sexist at all; for reasons as simple as although the character is sexuality they are not a character defined by their sexuality; and it all fits in with the games presentation and style anyway.

0thello:

Dense_Electric:

0thello:
I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.

Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

Evil Tim:

Warty Bliggens:
Bayonetta is a collection of fetishes with no personality beyond what is commonly considered 'sexy' by heterosexual men. She is the most blatant, shameless sex object in video game history.

Haven't played that many games, have you?

Hahaha, yeah, I was gonna say that the series Dead or Alive is filled with like 12 Bayonettas, and there's even volleyball and photoshoot spin offs that just further fuel this.

As someone said earlier, I think her appearance is sexist but her character in the game, all appearance aside, is not.

jamesworkshop:

0thello:

Dense_Electric:

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.

Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn't train to identify it in the manner which you refer to 'training'; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for "routine checks" it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have 'experience'. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It's about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as 'normal'. They don't think its sexism, that's my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren't very good at identifying sexism. Hell I'd extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say "sexist and empowering" is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

0thello:

jamesworkshop:

0thello:

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.

Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn't train to identify it in the manner which you refer to 'training'; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for "routine checks" it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have 'experience'. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It's about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as 'normal'. They don't think its sexism, that's my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren't very good at identifying sexism. Hell I'd extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say "sexist and empowering" is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

you infer rasicm because you presumptously assume the police to be rasict

what value you place is irrelevant as a non arbiter

sexist or empowering is what i said, the game has the very real possibility or being neither

also you really are making far too many assertions needlessly, male privilage....really

(males especially over the internet whom are gamers)
That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...how does privilage change depending on any particular males interest in the videogame market or non interest depending on an individuals circumstance because heaven knows people might not all be cardboard cutouts

jamesworkshop:

0thello:

jamesworkshop:

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.

Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn't train to identify it in the manner which you refer to 'training'; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for "routine checks" it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have 'experience'. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It's about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as 'normal'. They don't think its sexism, that's my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren't very good at identifying sexism. Hell I'd extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say "sexist and empowering" is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

you infer rasicm because you presumptously assume the police to be rasict

what value you place is irrelevant as a non arbiter

sexist or empowering is what i said, the game has the very real possibility or being neither

also you really are making far too many assertions needlessly, male privilage....really

(males especially over the internet whom are gamers)
That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...how does privilage change depending on any particular males interest in the videogame market or non interest depending on an individuals circumstance because heaven knows people might not all be cardboard cutouts

I don't presume the police to be racists, I believe the system they operate under to be. Your IGNORANCE is beginning to get on my nerves actually, and I don't care for your accusatory tone and I do not care for your pathetic attempt to tell me what my presumptions are.

(you)That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...(ypu)
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#opinion

No offence, but I don't really deem you worthy of any more of my time on this topic especially. If you want to take this further, feel free to PM me but I can't guarantee a response.

It's funny that you go on about "male privilege" when females are just as privileged in modern western society, albeit in different ways.

mireko:

Why yes, I am a fan of Bayonetta. Surprising, huh?

I tried the demo about a year ago and it was just too weird (I remember the music made me slam on the mute button). Then I gave it a real chance a few weeks ago and loved it. I just beat it two nights ago (that last boss' portal of insta-kill made me rage the first few times). The gameplay is so fun (Though I'm not good at it. I only got an chapter award higher than the Stone Award twice). I'm not going to make an argument for Bayonetta as a deep character, but she's not just sex-appeal as some people are saying. She has other characteristics: Wit, and compassion (after a while).

Overall, this isn't a game meant for deep thinking. It's just fun and challenging.

0thello:

jamesworkshop:

0thello:

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn't train to identify it in the manner which you refer to 'training'; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for "routine checks" it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have 'experience'. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It's about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as 'normal'. They don't think its sexism, that's my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren't very good at identifying sexism. Hell I'd extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say "sexist and empowering" is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

you infer rasicm because you presumptously assume the police to be rasict

what value you place is irrelevant as a non arbiter

sexist or empowering is what i said, the game has the very real possibility or being neither

also you really are making far too many assertions needlessly, male privilage....really

(males especially over the internet whom are gamers)
That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...how does privilage change depending on any particular males interest in the videogame market or non interest depending on an individuals circumstance because heaven knows people might not all be cardboard cutouts

I don't presume the police to be racists, I believe the system they operate under to be. Your IGNORANCE is beginning to get on my nerves actually, and I don't care for your accusatory tone and I do not care for your pathetic attempt to tell me what my presumptions are.

(you)That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...(ypu)
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#opinion

No offence, but I don't really deem you worthy of any more of my time on this topic especially. If you want to take this further, feel free to PM me but I can't guarantee a response.

I don't really deem you worthy

wow

apparently you are soo powerless you can dismiss people with a waive

talk about being under privilaged

pathetic attempt to tell me what my presumptions are.

and what did you say earlier about every male + games + internet

you gave me all the ammo i need, you told me your presumtions quite openly

you are bigoted, self rightous and self pitying

not an attractive combination

I was severely offended by Bayonetta, I mean, she just plain used guys to her own ends.... like we were some sort of object, nay, a toy for her!

cgentero:
Let me answer this with another question, is Dante sexist because he is an attractive male whose a bit flirty and doesn't like to wear a shirt?

This, this guy right here ios the reason I don't need to think up an intellegent and rational arguement that would quickly have devolved in to a long angry spiel.
Thank you kind sir, thank you for sparing me the inevitable suspension.

OP:
In case yyou can't tell, I say no.

DustyDrB:

mireko:

Why yes, I am a fan of Bayonetta. Surprising, huh?

I tried the demo about a year ago and it was just too weird (I remember the music made me slam on the mute button). Then I gave it a real chance a few weeks ago and loved it. I just beat it two nights ago (that last boss' portal of insta-kill made me rage the first few times). The gameplay is so fun (Though I'm not good at it. I only got an chapter award higher than the Stone Award twice). I'm not going to make an argument for Bayonetta as a deep character, but she's not just sex-appeal as some people are saying. She has other characteristics: Wit, and compassion (after a while).

Overall, this isn't a game meant for deep thinking. It's just fun and challenging.

That was roughly my experience with it too. The demo didn't click at first, but when you get into it it's fiercely addictive. Hard mode is even more intense, and then there's non-stop climax mode (hard mode without witch time). I like that the hard mode isn't just "the same, but with less health!" like you get in so many action games. They introduce tough enemies at the very beginning of the game, and it doesn't let up at all.

And yet it's not impossible or cheap. This is the only 360 game for which I unlocked all the achievements, so it does it all right.

I really wish they'd have skipped the quicktime events that show up something like twice in the entire game, but that's pretty much my only complaint. I don't mind J-pop, so I really like the version of "Fly me to the Moon" they use, however heretical some may find it.

But yeah. Persona 4 it ain't, and that's not really the point either. I will still disagree with people calling the game dumb, however. It's a fantastically intelligent game.

I don't mean the writing or the story, those are both pretty silly. It's the gameplay. The gameplay characterizes Bayonetta as much as the cutscenes (if not more), and the visual design puts it all together. It's so well-designed, well-composed and fun that calling it stupid seems highly disingenuous.

More than anything, it's like a perfect piece of music. Maybe it doesn't have any social, political, psychological or philosophical meaning, but when you listen to it you can still go "holy shit I can't believe you just did that".

Now I've gushed about a game that I like for about six paragraphs. Should I put a spoiler tag on it? Who knows.

I'm becoming a bit of a Kamiya fanboy. After Devil May Cry, Okami and Bayonetta.. I'm very excited to see what his next projects will be.

tartparty:
Please discuss for my pleasure.
Sorry I don't know if this has already been discussed but I am fairly new to the message boards although I am a long time fan Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw's Zero Punctuation.

Can someone tell me how to edit the poll, and be nice I am new to this. And I am also fairly doped up with prescription meds at the moment which is probably why the poll doesn't make sense
just take off or empowering

The poll question :IS BAYONETTA SEXIST?

I haven't played it but from what I've seen Bayonetta (the character) isn't sexist. Yes she'd pandering to males a lot but I don't think that makes her seixst, I think that just makes her a shallow character.

To be sexist IMO the developers would have to try to say that 'all women act like X' or 'women aren't that tough, see' or something like that.

Don't get me wrong I still think this kind of character is 2 dimensional and lazy writing and should be avoided if you care about making good characters. But I do not think it represents any kind of sexist attitudes (and I'm a bit of a stickler for definitions).

Oh and I'm basing all this on ads and the first 10 or so minutes of gameplay that I've watched my friend play. If she does develop more (no pun intended), I didn't know.

EDIT: Oh and I'm not voting in the poll because I haven't played much of the game, so maybe she does do something bad later.

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#opinion

I see you're from Shakesville. That explains quite a bit, really.

Neither, its just one character, and is not symbolic of all women, so it cannot be interpreted to represent them.

jamesworkshop:
and what did you say earlier about every male + games + internet

you gave me all the ammo i need, you told me your presumtions quite openly

you are bigoted, self rightous and self pitying

not an attractive combination

While Othello's post was not terribly well phrased, you know as well as I do that it's a general rule that men do not see male privilege. Why would they? Male privilege is normal.. it's not noticeable unless you're excluded from it.

As someone who has 'trained' to be able to identify gender privilege and other such things, I can safely that being a man is a pretty massive disadvantage in being able to see these things. There is such an intense oversaturation and overfocus on catering to men in visual media that it's not even obvious. It's more obvious when it doesn't happen or when something contradictory happens than when it does.

This is particularly true in the games industry, which until very recently has always tended to assume a white (or Japanese in this case) male, heterosexual audience in all cases everywhere. As men (men who sleep with women, specifically) we can always count on having easy access to compliant sexual fantasies (pornography, sexually suggestive films or games, etc). This is so normal we (perhaps rightly) consider it an intrinsic right, but unlike other rights its hardly universal.

It is very tempting when someone says something like 'men don't see privilege' to a) take it as a universal, which clearly isn't true, and b) to overreact and get defensive. Actually, there's a grain of truth there which needs to be pulled out and examined.

ZOMG! She's a woman AND ATTRACTIVE! That's TOTALLY SEXIST! Real women are never attractive! Men who like seeing attractive women in entertainment are all filthy pigs, and women who like seeing attractive women must be lesbians or something, because it's not like normal women prefer characters that are attractive to ones that aren't. Just like men prefer playing games as ugly guys. That's why every guy in any video game ever is hideously ugly, right?

ZephrC:
ZOMG! She's a woman AND ATTRACTIVE! That's TOTALLY SEXIST! Real women are never attractive! Men who like seeing attractive women in entertainment are all filthy pigs, and women who like seeing attractive women must be lesbians or something, because it's not like normal women prefer characters that are attractive to ones that aren't.

Example 1

Example 2

Do you see the difference?

evilthecat:

jamesworkshop:
and what did you say earlier about every male + games + internet

you gave me all the ammo i need, you told me your presumtions quite openly

you are bigoted, self rightous and self pitying

not an attractive combination

While Othello's post was not terribly well phrased, you know as well as I do that it's a general rule that men do not see male privilege. Why would they? Male privilege is normal.. it's not noticeable unless you're excluded from it.

As someone who has 'trained' to be able to identify gender privilege and other such things, I can safely that being a man is a pretty massive disadvantage in being able to see these things. There is such an intense oversaturation and overfocus on catering to men in visual media that it's not even obvious. It's more obvious when it doesn't happen or when something contradictory happens than when it does.

This is particularly true in the games industry, which until very recently has always tended to assume a white (or Japanese in this case) male, heterosexual audience in all cases everywhere. As men (men who sleep with women, specifically) we can always count on having easy access to compliant sexual fantasies (pornography, sexually suggestive films or games, etc). This is so normal we (perhaps rightly) consider it an intrinsic right, but unlike other rights its hardly universal.

It is very tempting when someone says something like 'men don't see privilege' to a) take it as a universal, which clearly isn't true, and b) to overreact and get defensive. Actually, there's a grain of truth there which needs to be pulled out and examined.

that maybe the case i'm not denying privilage exists although personally I think it's a fairly bad word to described what is being asserted anyone male or female that is heterosexual has no worries of finding media representation but the issue here is I don't see the relevance.
I happen to be literate but I would not described the fact that 90% of every individual adult I meet is also going to be and assumed by me to also be literate adults because 99% of them are is not something I would define as privilage or discuss it in an air of it must be wrong to be literate or that somehow people that are literate are somehow unable to recognise that when someone is illiterate because I myself know how to read might find themselves faced with an uphill struggle to get on in life.

the idea that bayonetta, a light hearted "rule of cool" spectacle cannot be anything other than either sexist or empowering (must be one or the other) is a silly dichotomy, one of his links carried the implication that questioning that meant I was inflicting suffering of millions of people, clearly proving my point that people are taking the idea far too seriously in reguards to the lens of judging the game Bayonetta.

Bayonetta maybe be female but in context she is not a human or even a human woman, I do find it slightly odd that with things like say Buffy from the generally very good TV show, are talked about in context of female empowerment or feminism when they clearly possess supernatural abilites and thus are not really suitable because their nature removes them from the topic as non-entities as they clearly are not subjected to the same rules, it's odd to me to suggest women characters are only of worth due to the very things that make them nolonger women, human or even mortal in some cases.

It's a bit like the anime media representing swords as valid weapon in a modern mechanised projectile/balistic weaponry based army and then have to overcome the shortcomming by making the individual brandishing the swords as being 5x stronger, faster and more agile than any human has the capability of doing.

Swords being brilliant as long as the owner can deflect/dodge 320 m/s speeding bullets

evilthecat:

ZephrC:
ZOMG! She's a woman AND ATTRACTIVE! That's TOTALLY SEXIST! Real women are never attractive! Men who like seeing attractive women in entertainment are all filthy pigs, and women who like seeing attractive women must be lesbians or something, because it's not like normal women prefer characters that are attractive to ones that aren't.

http://idiotduck.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/adriana-lima-doutzen-kroes-supermodel-obsession.jpg

http://topnews.in/light/files/danielle-l.jpg

Do you see the difference?

Nope. Well, they're different people in different poses. Assuming you weren't trying to send me to a 404 error page and actually meant to do the URLs and the text the other way around that is. Even then I don't think that's what you mean though.

Maybe you're referring to the second one's pose being more sexy? I dunno. All I see is a couple half naked women being pretty for the camera. Do you really believe they're that different? Do you think there's something wrong with a sexy pose perhaps? That good women don't do that?, That women should always be chaste and never tempt men with their filthy, filthy bodies?

ZephrC:
Maybe you're referring to the second one's pose being more sexy? I dunno. All I see is a couple half naked women being pretty for the camera. Do you really believe they're that different? Do you think there's something wrong with a sexy pose perhaps? That good women don't do that?, That women should always be chaste and never tempt men with their filthy, filthy bodies?

Link fixed.

They are fundamentally different genres. They were produced for very different purposes. My feeling on it isn't the issue.

One is a fashion shot designed to appeal primarily to female identification.

The other is a glamour shot designed to appeal primarily to a male libido.

I chose ambiguous examples of both genres because I wanted to break it down to the most fundamental elements of how the models are styled and posed and how the shots are composed and produced, but you've clearly missed it altogether.

There is a difference between representing beauty and sexuality and doing pornography (pornography in the broad sense, not the generic sense). To deliberately appeal on that level is not representing or celebrating beauty or sexuality, it's reducing bodies (female bodies, almost always) to simplistic tropes and one dimensional images in order to provide fantasy material to an assumed male audience.

But again, you probably don't see the difference.. Just remember that your privilege is your ability to differentiate yourself from those bodies which you consume. Some people aren't so lucky.

Also, you've never met that woman. She's not tempting you. In fact she probably doesn't give a shit about anything you might feel or have to say. She didn't naturally throw herself there because she's wanton and sexually available for you, she's been paid to sit in that position in order that you can get off pretending that there's some kind of interaction there. Choosing to see that does not make me a sex-negative reactionary, choosing not to see it does not make you a champion of sexual liberation.

jamesworkshop:
snip

Well said. I agree with most that.

For the record, I think you both have points worth making, it just seemed you were bouncing off each other quite badly.

In the same way that duke nukem is sexist.

Haha so many of you are hypocrites.

evilthecat:

ZephrC:
Maybe you're referring to the second one's pose being more sexy? I dunno. All I see is a couple half naked women being pretty for the camera. Do you really believe they're that different? Do you think there's something wrong with a sexy pose perhaps? That good women don't do that?, That women should always be chaste and never tempt men with their filthy, filthy bodies?

Link fixed.

They are fundamentally different genres. They were produced for very different purposes. My feeling on it isn't the issue.

One is a fashion shot designed to appeal primarily to female identification.

The other is a glamour shot designed to appeal primarily to a male libido.

I chose ambiguous examples of both genres because I wanted to break it down to the most fundamental elements of how the models are styled and posed and how the shots are composed and produced, but you've clearly missed it altogether.

There is a difference between representing beauty and sexuality and doing pornography (pornography in the broad sense, not the generic sense). To deliberately appeal on that level is not representing or celebrating beauty or sexuality, it's reducing bodies (female bodies, almost always) to simplistic tropes and one dimensional images in order to provide fantasy material to an assumed male audience.

But again, you probably don't see the difference.. Just remember that your privilege is your ability to differentiate yourself from those bodies which you consume. Some people aren't so lucky.

Also, you've never met that woman. She's not tempting you. In fact she probably doesn't give a shit about anything you might feel or have to say. She didn't naturally throw herself there because she's wanton and sexually available for you, she's been paid to sit in that position in order that you can get off pretending that there's some kind of interaction there. Choosing to see that does not make me a sex-negative reactionary, choosing not to see it does not make you a champion of sexual liberation.

Well no shit she got paid to do that. News flash! The model in the first picture was being paid as well! They're both being paid to be pretty for the camera. Is it really so horrible that a different audience's idea of pretty is being used for the different pictures?

Besides, plenty of women enjoy behaving like that, because they enjoy the reactions of the men around them. Do I believe for a second that they give a shit about me? Hell no. Does that make them bad? No. No, it doesn't.

Also, I would find hilarious that you seem to be under the impression that the fashion industry is somehow good for women if it weren't so pathetically, dangerously wrong.

I hope someday you can realize that perhaps there's more to this than simply saying that everything women like is super cool and everything men like is naughty and wrong. It is certainly my privilege to live in a society that knows what I like. How about instead of trying futilely to take that away from me, you work on extending that same benefit to women as well? Hell, for the right money I'd be just as willing to pretend to fulfill a million random women's desires that I don't really care about as the women in the second photograph you provided was willing to pretend to fulfill mine. It probably wouldn't have anything to do with prancing around in my underwear, but hell, I'd even do that if you paid me enough. And let me tell you, she probably got paid enough.

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