Do you have to like a character before you consider them good?

You know those godawful threads that are born when someone encounters an opinion that conflicts with their own and goes running to the internet in search of confirmation? Yeah, well, this is essentially one of those... sorry 'bout that. But stick with me, there's a bit more to this.

...

So... while reading the numerous threads relating to the Mass Effect games I noticed a bit of hate toward the character Jack/Subject Zero. Now, we're not talking Metroid Other M-level hate or anything, just the normal everyday variety.

This didn't really come as a surprise. After all, she's an extremely aggressive female with a shaved head and tattoos. Her chances of being popular are pretty slim. But what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a bitch."

Now, this seems a bit odd to me. It's akin to hating Hannibal Lecter because he's a cannibalistic murder. Yes, he is, but that's kinda the point. Same with Jack. Yes, she's a bitch, and refers to herself as such, but that's exactly what she's supposed to be. She has a severely fucked up past, deep-seated trust issues and a very low opinion of humanity in general. Couple that with a significant degree of raw power and you get a vicious bitch. If you regard her as such, doesn't that mean she is a well made character?

Anyway, moving on from the horrific and traumatising prospect of people on the internet not liking something that I like, this got me thinking. If you do not like a character, if they illicit a negative response, does that automatically mean they are poorly executed and therefore a bad character?

It's not hard to think of other examples.

Like, say, Justicar Samara. (My apologies to those of you who are really sick of hearing about ME2.) I didn't like her at all. She's merciless, cold, rigid and dogmatic. She did gain a significant bit of warmth after her loyalty mission, but overall I found her somewhat unsettling, even a bit creepy. However, on reflection, I would say that's an indication of a quality character. After all, she's the product of an alien society (literally) and even her own kind consider her to be an extremist of sorts.

Or, if I really want to put this to the test, how about Hope from Final Fantasy XIII? (Cue chorus of groans.) I hated that little wet rodent. Every time he was on screen I found myself hoping (hurr hurr) that he would fall off a cliff or get eaten by something. However, rather than cursing the game's writers for making me put up with him for 17 hours, should I instead be praising their perfect depiction of an irritating and angsty teenage male?

...

Okay, that post got awfully verbose. Excessively so, in fact. I wonder how many people will just go, "Waaagh! Words! TL;DR!" But I think I've made my point.

So... thoughts?

Sometimes, say with a villain, if you like them they're not doing it right. So sometimes they can only be good characters if you don't like them.
For example in Uncharted 2, I hate Harry Flynn. He's cocky even though he isn't smart, he annoys me to no end, but I think he's a great character.

Zhukov:
...what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a bitch."

Now, this seems a bit odd to me. It's akin to hating Hannibal Lecter because he's a cannibalistic murder. Yes, he is, but that's kinda the point. Same with Jack. Yes, she's a bitch, and refers to herself as such, but that's exactly what she's supposed to be.

I didn't like Jack that much.
As a character, I think she was well done.
But as me liking that character as a person? No.

Hannibal was a cannibalistic murderer, and a good character: I didn't like him as a person.
Jack was damaged goods, a bitch, and a good character: I didn't like her as a person.

That's where I'm coming from, least ways.
Her dialog was well written, she had some serious issues and a heavy past, and she even had moments of tenderness and vulnerability. A good character. But she was obnoxiously aggressive, she was painfully insecure with always trying to look tough, and she was beyond selfish. Not someone I like hanging out with.

So she was a good character, but not a part of my team.

I hate Fang from final fantasy 13, but i still consider her an interesting character. Mainly because of her backstory.

I hate Benny from FNV so damn much. But he is a good character because every time I meet him I keep thinking "Well he doesn't seem so bad for a guy who shot me in the face".

A character can have whatever qualities they need to. A good character can assume those same qualities and still seem like they would exist. A good character feels real and fits into the role they are taking. Hell, even parody characters, so long as they are committed to that parody, can be good (The dentist from Psychonauts, for instance).

Are you basically saying, can I appreciate a character as being well-written without liking the character as a person? If so, the answer is yes, absolutely. Jack and Samara are well-written characters, even if I wouldn't care to hang out with either of them IRL.

If you want an example of a poorly-written character in ME2, it's Miranda, mostly because she's a bundle of informed attributes: the game (and Miranda herself) keep telling us how superior she is to everybody else, how intelligent she is, and what a great leader she is, but her actions in cutscenes and dialogue don't support any of it, nor is she a particularly powerful squadmate in game (once I had Jack and Samara, I had no reason to bring Miranda along on missions).

I don't think it's at all unrealistic for there to be mean and unwanted people in a universe like Mass Effect. However, as strange as it sounds, being surrounded by nothing but either nice people or dead-set villains is sometimes an acceptable break from reality. Just like in real life, we'd prefer to be working alongside people we generally like, who are funny, enjoyable, and have viewpoints somewhat similar to our own, plus a few character quirks we enjoy.

That said I sort of thought Jack could fit partly into the "nice people" regard, only given what she's been through and being able to understand that. It was the Justicar that I felt there was no way of identifying with.

Likewise to Jack in one of my favorite series, Phoenix Wright...

I loved Jack. Pursuing her romance led to actual character development. I think hating characters because of the way they are written is perfectly acceptable. The writers want strong reactions to a character whether negative or positive. I never understood the hate for Jack, though. You try being tortured as a child for years and then find yourself working with the people that did it.

No, you don't.

I can understand where the confusion comes from, but not liking a character for a reason that's down to their personality (and not them being dull, poorly written, 2 dimensional, etc) is just as much a sign of good writing as you liking them.

I certainly don't like Kratos, but I acknowledge that we was well-written for 1 entire game.

It's wierd. I thought Miranda was a bigger bitch than Jack... Jack was just a messed up kid in a way lashing out because she was totally emotionally scarred. Miranda should know better but still acts like a complete cow. I wanted to lay her out with an ultimate shepard punch when she had a go at Joker. *enrage*

I like both of the characters though becuase they are kind of realistic. Yeah Miranda is an ice queen but I get a big sister vibe off her (mostly becuase shes actually the spit of my big sister rofl) and I get a little sister vibe off Jack and Tali. Miranda is there to help me and nudge me in the right direction, Jack and Tali need my help.

So I guess in conclusion no I don't have to like a character to think they are well done. Look at Jacob for example he's a nice enough guy but the character is as wooden as a post. I sometimes think he was added as an afterthought for there to be a human male love interest.

I think men get so much better options for romance in that game lol, but maybe that's becuase I don't like the idea of alien sexy times :3

I don't think I truly liked a single major player in Red Dead Redemption.

I did, however, find many of them to be good characters.

Hating a character and recognizing they are nicely written aren't exclusive to each other. People hating Jack doesn't mean they consider her poorly executed in the context of the story so I don't know what you are upset about. But then again I also don't know what posts that got this reaction out of you contained so I don't want to be too preachy in cast they were just "LOL! Jack sux cuz she bitch lmao!!!!!"

I hated Caim from Drakengard.
Because he was incredibly hate-able. A genuine douchebag.
But god was he an awesome character.

I hated Morrigan for so long. But needing a mage due to decisions at the circle led me to only having her as an option, after a while (and almost every gift in the game) she grew on me.
I think it's good to make a bitch/arse character and then develop them in such a way that, despite being an arse, they're nice to the PC.

That's a good character to me.

Making a character that's an arse for no reason, when they're supposed to be my companion, that's a dick move in my mind.

Making a character I don't like because I find them annoying is different. I hated Wakka from Final Fantasy X, but I know others who didn't so I think he's a decent character because he has appeal.

What you described for Jack (Not finished with ME yet, so not started ME2) is a shitty (in my mind) character to have as a companion but not a shitty character in general.

Hoookay! Let the reply parade begin!

Baby Tea:
I didn't like Jack that much.
As a character, I think she was well done.
But as me liking that character as a person? No.

Hannibal was a cannibalistic murderer, and a good character: I didn't like him as a person.
Jack was damaged goods, a bitch, and a good character: I didn't like her as a person.

That's where I'm coming from, least ways.

Uh... yeah. That exactly what I was trying to get across.

Heh. You just said in six lines the same thing that took me six paragraphs. God damn it.

Falseprophet:
If you want an example of a poorly-written character in ME2, it's Miranda, mostly because she's a bundle of informed attributes: the game (and Miranda herself) keep telling us how superior she is to everybody else, how intelligent she is, and what a great leader she is, but her actions in cutscenes and dialogue don't support any of it, nor is she a particularly powerful squadmate in game.

xXxJessicaxXx:
It's wierd. I thought Miranda was a bigger bitch than Jack... Jack was just a messed up kid in a way lashing out because she was totally emotionally scarred. Miranda should know better but still acts like a complete cow. I wanted to lay her out with an ultimate shepard punch when she had a go at Joker. *enrage*

(Check it out! Two replies for the price of one!)

I wasn't entirely sure how to feel about Miranda. At first the whole engineered-to-be-perfect thing rubbed me up the wrong way. "You've got to be kidding me. That is your source of angst? You were made to be perfect? Woman, cry me a fucking river." But during her loyalty mission it becomes clear that her situation is far from ideal. Also, in Lair of the Shadow Broker there is a mention that her genetic engineering has rendered her permanently infertile. That would have to be a real kick in the... ovaries.

If I were going to hate Miranda, it would be for the boots. Seriously, who goes into a firefight dressed like that? I wanted to hug that one snarky Asari mercenary who calls her out on it.

Katana314:
It was the Justicar that I felt there was no way of identifying with.

But that was my point. She's an alien being who follows an alien code that is considered strange and outdated even by her own people. If we can't identify with that, might that not be an indicator of skilful characterization?

Although my point kind of fails when I remember that I actually sorta ended up liking her eventually. A couple of her lines following the conclusion to her loyalty mission were real heart-melters. At one point she describes herself as "a broken old warrior", and slightly later on as "a ruined vessel of sorrow and regret". She also says that, despite everything, she was intensely proud of Morinth. I found that oddly touching.

Katana314:
...in one of my favorite series, Phoenix Wright...

Would you still consider her a well-executed character if she never warmed up? Or if she changed in a less agreeable way?

Horny Ico:
I certainly don't like Kratos, but I acknowledge that we was well-written for 1 entire game.

Heh. Nice shot.

RedEyesBlackGamer:
I loved Jack. Pursuing her romance led to actual character development. I think hating characters because of the way they are written is perfectly acceptable. The writers want strong reactions to a character whether negative or positive. I never understood the hate for Jack, though. You try being tortured as a child for years and then find yourself working with the people that did it.

Yup. That was almost exactly how I felt.

(Achievement Unlocked: Confirmation)

StBishop:
I hated Morrigan for so long. But needing a mage due to decisions at the circle led me to only having her as an option, after a while (and almost every gift in the game) she grew on me.
I think it's good to make a bitch/arse character and then develop them in such a way that, despite being an arse, they're nice to the PC.

That's a good character to me.

Making a character that's an arse for no reason, when they're supposed to be my companion, that's a dick move in my mind.

What you described for Jack (Not finished with ME yet, so not started ME2) is a shitty (in my mind) character to have as a companion but not a shitty character in general.

See, this is were I start getting confused. I don't see why a game should have to surround the protagonist with yes-men. I realise that this plays into the fact that games are often about wish-fulfillment, but I still find it excessive.

Personally, I liked Morrigan when she was making sarcastic remarks and calling me out on all my goody-two-shoes acts of charity to random strangers (read: side missions) while there was an entire world that needed saving.

That said, her later character development was still welcome.

Zhukov:
I don't see why a game should have to surround the protagonist with yes-men. I realise that this plays into the fact that games are often about wish-fulfillment, but I still find it excessive.

Agreed!
I found this was best, actually, in Dragon Age 2.
I know that game isn't spoken fondly of here on the internet, but I enjoyed it. And the Actual characters were one of the big reasons. Isabella? Totally left my group. So did Fenris. Why? Because we had staunchly different views, and they wouldn't stop being who they are.

I liked that.

Now, I loved ME2, but when you can end the game with everyone loving you and holding hands, that's a bit unrealistic. I enjoyed the moments of tension between crew members, but was disappointed when you could, with enough 'renegade' or 'paragon' points, smooth everything over.

I was a very peaceful man in DA2. Well, as much as a could be. But I was glad when moments where I attempted peace didn't work. That's realistic. That's real characterization! People don't always get along, no matter how much of a silver tongue you have or how much they like you. Sometimes choices must be made, and I saw more of that in DA2 then I did in ME2.

Zhukov:

So... while reading the numerous threads relating to the Mass Effect games I noticed a bit of hate toward the character Jack/Subject Zero. Now, we're not talking Metroid Other M-level hate or anything, just the normal everyday variety.

This didn't really come as a surprise. After all, she's an extremely aggressive female with a shaved head and tattoos. Her chances of being popular are pretty slim. But what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a bitch."

I loved Subject Zero. Seriously, she and Grunt are my favourite characters from the mass effect games. I liked her from the moment when I first saw her breaking out of prison. The only thing I didn't like about her, was that she wasn't into girls, so I couldn't cheat on Liara... I often play the "evil" or "bitch" character myself when I get the chance in RPG's like mass effect.

Zhukov:

Katana314:
It was the Justicar that I felt there was no way of identifying with.

But that was my point. She's an alien being who follows an alien code that is considered strange and outdated even by her own people. If we can't identify with that, might that not be an indicator of skilful characterization?

I think it would be REALISTIC characterization, but not likable characterization. If a story like The Dark Knight can even make its villains somewhat "likable" while serving all their purposes, it's just better that way. You enjoy it more. The one exception I might make is when that sort of alienation does more than just vary the characterization, and actually serves some direct purpose in the storyline. For instance, incurring a possible war with the Justicars.

Zhukov:

Katana314:
...in one of my favorite series, Phoenix Wright...

Would you still consider her a well-executed character if she never warmed up? Or if she changed in a less agreeable way?

To put it simply, no, I don't think I would. Phoenix Wright cases tend to end in a very happy way after quite a lot of emotional trauma, and I don't think I'd prefer it any other way. Tragedy and moody characters are artsy and all, but in the end it's just generally not as satisfying.

she is a bitch.

but thats her entire fucking character. if you dont romance her, and no sane person would become attracted to someone who does nothing be act like an asshole to them IRL, then she has no other qualities. for me jack is a perfect example of why an understandable character personality has nothing to do with whether its good or not. she only has any sort of dimension when you romance her, but agian, what bloody reason would you do that for?! shes a psychotic killer who hates cerberus, who YOU are a part of, and all of her conversations end up with her humoring you until she gets fed up and says "fuck off"; WHO WOULD FIND THIS ATTRACTIVE?!

i get it. her life sucks. she has every reason to act the way she does. but intentionally unlikeable IS STILL UNLIKEABLE. i believe that those who like jack either romanced her not because they liked her but just to see how the hell it could possibly turn out, and/or to feel like the underdogs defending a disliked character.

she had all those tattoos that supposedly told a story; she was a hardcore as anyone could be; she had uniquely extreme experience with an 'adapt or die' lifestyle. but all bioware could make of that is "fuck you shepard" repeated 12 times until you romanced her. not a good character to me.

Zhukov:
You know those godawful threads that are born when someone encounters an opinion that conflicts with their own and goes running to the internet in search of confirmation? Yeah, well, this is essentially one of those... sorry 'bout that. But stick with me, there's a bit more to this.

...

So... while reading the numerous threads relating to the Mass Effect games I noticed a bit of hate toward the character Jack/Subject Zero. Now, we're not talking Metroid Other M-level hate or anything, just the normal everyday variety.

This didn't really come as a surprise. After all, she's an extremely aggressive female with a shaved head and tattoos. Her chances of being popular are pretty slim. But what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a bitch."

Now, this seems a bit odd to me. It's akin to hating Hannibal Lecter because he's a cannibalistic murder. Yes, he is, but that's kinda the point. Same with Jack. Yes, she's a bitch, and refers to herself as such, but that's exactly what she's supposed to be. She has a severely fucked up past, deep-seated trust issues and a very low opinion of humanity in general. Couple that with a significant degree of raw power and you get a vicious bitch. If you regard her as such, doesn't that mean she is a well made character?

Anyway, moving on from the horrific and traumatising prospect of people on the internet not liking something that I like, this got me thinking. If you do not like a character, if they illicit a negative response, does that automatically mean they are poorly executed and therefore a bad character?

It's not hard to think of other examples.

Like, say, Justicar Samara. (My apologies to those of you who are really sick of hearing about ME2.) I didn't like her at all. She's merciless, cold, rigid and dogmatic. She did gain a significant bit of warmth after her loyalty mission, but overall I found her somewhat unsettling, even a bit creepy. However, on reflection, I would say that's an indication of a quality character. After all, she's the product of an alien society (literally) and even her own kind consider her to be an extremist of sorts.

Or, if I really want to put this to the test, how about Hope from Final Fantasy XIII? (Cue chorus of groans.) I hated that little wet rodent. Every time he was on screen I found myself hoping (hurr hurr) that he would fall off a cliff or get eaten by something. However, rather than cursing the game's writers for making me put up with him for 17 hours, should I instead be praising their perfect depiction of an irritating and angsty teenage male?

...

Okay, that post got awfully verbose. Excessively so, in fact. I wonder how many people will just go, "Waaagh! Words! TL;DR!" But I think I've made my point.

So... thoughts?

HOPE ... HOPE!! don't get me started on that mummy's boy granted I hated all the characters in FF-XIII YES ALL OFF THEM :@ he is my most hated character ever from my most hated game ever.

So no I can't for give squire enix for this I took my FF13 and hit it with a stick in my garden until it broke into tiny pieces, I wish I was kidding.

Zhukov:

StBishop:
I hated Morrigan for so long. But needing a mage due to decisions at the circle led me to only having her as an option, after a while (and almost every gift in the game) she grew on me.
I think it's good to make a bitch/arse character and then develop them in such a way that, despite being an arse, they're nice to the PC.

That's a good character to me.

Making a character that's an arse for no reason, when they're supposed to be my companion, that's a dick move in my mind.

What you described for Jack (Not finished with ME yet, so not started ME2) is a shitty (in my mind) character to have as a companion but not a shitty character in general.

See, this is were I start getting confused. I don't see why a game should have to surround the protagonist with yes-men. I realise that this plays into the fact that games are often about wish-fulfillment, but I still find it excessive.

Personally, I liked Morrigan when she was making sarcastic remarks and calling me out on all my goody-two-shoes acts of charity to random strangers (read: side missions) while there was an entire world that needed saving.

That said, her later character development was still welcome.

I don't think everyone need to agree with me, or that they even need to like me. But why would the warden allow them to come along if they were arses the whole time?
See Sten, he always told me I was being dishonourable, or that I was less powerful than he had heard Wardens were (which was ironic because my character was a monster, Sword and Board but still managed to hit the 250 damage achievement, with so much life it was beyond a joke. Hard mode was a cake walk.).
I still liked Sten though, because I understood everything he did and said, Morrigan was ridiculous and often would have a go at me for not helping people.
She just seemed inconsistent and always fucking disapproved with nearly everything I did. The only way to make her not hate me was to talk to her all the fucking time at camp and give her ALL the gifts.
I think it's not so much that she disagreed, it's that she was a bitch about it.

Truly-A-Lie:
Sometimes, say with a villain, if you like them they're not doing it right.

What if they're just fun to watch, like say, the Joker or Alex from A Clockwork Orange? I mean I know they're both heartless brutes, but I just can't help but to feel some sort of admiration for them.

ABLb0y:
I hate Fang from final fantasy 13, but i still consider her an interesting character. Mainly because of her backstory.

Her and maybe Orlandu Holy Swordsman from FFTactics...his character was amazingly powerful and with a great story but i sure as hell didnt like him...too goodie goodie for me even if he was TGCid

shadyh8er:

Truly-A-Lie:
Sometimes, say with a villain, if you like them they're not doing it right.

What if they're just fun to watch, like say, the Joker or Alex from A Clockwork Orange? I mean I know they're both heartless brutes, but I just can't help but to feel some sort of admiration for them.

Yeah I should've said not all villains, but there's definitely some that we are supposed to hate. You're right in that there's usually a certain charm to most bad guys though, unless they're hideous and completely evil like the Chimera or something.

Truly-A-Lie:

shadyh8er:

Truly-A-Lie:
Sometimes, say with a villain, if you like them they're not doing it right.

What if they're just fun to watch, like say, the Joker or Alex from A Clockwork Orange? I mean I know they're both heartless brutes, but I just can't help but to feel some sort of admiration for them.

Yeah I should've said not all villains, but there's definitely some that we are supposed to hate. You're right in that there's usually a certain charm to most bad guys though, unless they're hideous and completely evil like the Chimera or something.

Hehe, yeah. Can't wait to finish those fuckers off in Resistance 3.

Captcha: from mmenizen

You wouldn't happen to know where mmenizen is do you?

I liked Ashley as a good character, but wasnt particularly fond of her in game because she was so well written. She had her own opinions and beliefs, and I thought they were stupid and didnt like them. Not because they were poorly written, I just disagreed.

Pretty good character IMO.

Jack? I think shes an absolutely shit character. Shes a similar sort of romance Bioware have already done in the past, but back then it was done far better (Viconia - fall in love with the evil chick and redeem her because of it/discover her sad past and why she is the way she is).

The difference is Viconias romance was far better written, and she didnt do things like tell you to fuck off all the time and generally annoy you. All in all, it was a haphazard romance with an unlikeable character where he attitude and appearance didnt make me want to "discover her soft, wounded side".

What I get from those two different cases is that it just varies from time to time. I have no idea who Im going to like or hate and for what reasons. I guess thats part of the appeal, and disappointment too.

Vern5:
I hate Benny from FNV so damn much. But he is a good character because every time I meet him I keep thinking "Well he doesn't seem so bad for a guy who shot me in the face".

Almost exactly what I was thinking, except every time I caught up with him I just thought it sounded like he was trying to weasel his way out of a confrontation. I had him crucified and, while he was hanging there, crippled his limbs with a sledgehammer.

Proof that good characters don't require that you like them to be good characters.

I tend to give well-written characters credit where it's due. Most of the video game characters I strongly dislike earned my ire by being poorly written, such as Final Fantasy XIII's Lightning or The World Ends with You's Neku Sakuraba.

Zhukov:
This didn't really come as a surprise. After all, she's an extremely aggressive female with a shaved head and tattoos. Her chances of being popular are pretty slim. But what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a bitch."

Well, she is. She's annoying and infuriating and whiny and possesses that "I don't care what anyone else thinks, I'm all that matters" attitude that annoys me about so many people. I kept her in my squad only when I needed her. I couldn't stand her.

In essence, she is exactly that.

Thing is, that's the point with that character. She's supposed to be obnoxious. She's a well-drawn character; a character I despise, but a good character nonetheless.

So of course one doesn't need to like a character. They just have to be plausible, to elicit a reaction - positive or negative - and play their part in the story.

I dunno, I think that to a certain extent, yes. Take Rorschach from WATCHMEN for example. I know for a fact that I would fucking HATE him if I met him in real life, but he is probably one of my favorite characters ever written. It's not so much the character's attitude, it's the way said attitude is written.

I don't think you have to like a character for them to be good. I think if a character is deep and well fleshed out then it is a good character. Like most villains, you aren't meant to like them, but usually their character is well thought out.

Although maybe it is easier to view a character as good if they are likable.

Falseprophet:
If you want an example of a poorly-written character in ME2, it's Miranda, mostly because she's a bundle of informed attributes: the game (and Miranda herself) keep telling us how superior she is to everybody else, how intelligent she is, and what a great leader she is, but her actions in cutscenes and dialogue don't support any of it, nor is she a particularly powerful squadmate in game (once I had Jack and Samara, I had no reason to bring Miranda along on missions).

From a gameplay perspective, I personally disagree with you. I found Miranda to be a pretty versatile and useful squadmate who could take down mech & shield as well as armour & barrier type enemies, thanks to the unique combo of Overload and Warp. The other two might have more flash, but I personally prefer overall practicality. I pretty much have her superglued to my side as a result.

Xaositect:
The difference is Viconias romance was far better written, and she didnt do things like tell you to fuck off all the time and generally annoy you. All in all, it was a haphazard romance with an unlikeable character where he attitude and appearance didnt make me want to "discover her soft, wounded side".

Maybe I'm misremembering, since I haven't played BG2 in a while, but I'm pretty sure Viconia does indeed tell you to fuck off (not literally, but the message is essentially the same) and generally annoy you after you sleep with her the first time. Or am I misremembering her gloating about how superior and Drowish she was, and how she'd lied through her teeth to me about her previous experiences and had been playing me for a fool, etc.

I don't hate Jack, I never hated Jack, I liked Jack. She was honest, so she got my respect. She was cold, dark, depressing, and why because she had spent most her life being a lab rat, she had the right to be. She didn't want to be bothered so she went into the basement. That doesn't deserve hate because she is true to herself and tells people how she feels. At least she isn't like Miranda's bitch ass gloating that she is "better" then everyone.

 

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