Do you think that the reason females aren't main characters in violent games is because...

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....We like to depict females in a more positive light and don't like the concept of them being hurt?

I say this because lets take GTA4 for example, its quite apparent that there is a majority male AI, pedestrians, main characters etc, much of this could be because the developers suspected males gamers would have a violence towards women approach, maybe not, who knows. WWE games have now separated males and females in their games, which to me seems pretty stupid, I can understand the realism approach, but it kind of defeats the purpose of even putting females in the game, the number of matches you can have with females included is limited and they can never directly compete with the males, so why even bother putting them in the game? I don't JUST want to play normal and tag matches, I want to play all with any character I feel like choosing. Besides that we have very macho male orientated games from FPS to Sandbox and few feature female protagonists.

Its nice to see the choice available in games like Dragon Age and Fallout, but what about other games?

But like I said, do you think think that its the protective nature that we have of females and violence? Could it be political correctness? Why can't there be a female protagonist in Dead Space? Is it because she'd suffer the same morbid deaths as Issac does? Like someone said, why no females in FPS games?

What do you think it is and do you think things should change or stay as they are?

(QUICK EDIT: I think its a little more than just "Its a male dominated market", because then we have to look at the specifics of it, like race and culture, I don't identify with Marcus Fenix because he's a male, to be honest I couldn't give a damn as long as the gameplay is sound and the plot makes some sort of sense otherwise I would never have played Tomb Raider games. Heck, saying I identify with the male characters more is almost insulting, its like saying I'm simple minded, I'm a black, fairly skinny guy who lives in England, I'm neither American, White or Muscle Bound, so I have no connection with these characters whatsoever, I live nothing like them, their lives are alien to me, but I enjoy the games all the same.)

I have noticed that video games and movies tend to shy away from showing women being killed, especially not as violently as the men getting killed. It's a subtle form of sexism, probably descended from the belief that men should go fight in wars while women stay in the kitchen.

No, it's because males identify themselves more easily with other males. Gaming being predominantly a male "thing", developers cater more to them. I doubt any developer have ever said to themselves "We won't make a woman a main character in this WWII game just because women need to stay in the kitchen".

That's society. More males game=more games with male protagonists. I would like to see more games with female protagonists, but publishers want guarunteed income.

Females can be the protagonists of violent games, it's just they're not chosen often (males are more aggressive? I dunno). BloodRayne, anyone?

Chamale:
It's a subtle form of sexism, probably descended from the belief that men should go fight in wars while women stay in the kitchen.

Everything is some sort of "-ism" these days. . .

Tragedy's Rebellion:
No, it's because males identify themselves more easily with other males. Gaming being predominantly a male "thing", developers cater more to them.

I never quite understood this. Yes sure it works for the majority of cases but just have a look at the popularity of Tomb Raider. Sure you could say is cause of the polygon overrun that occured in the first game (you know what Im talking about), but honestly I think people actually connected with Lara. I don't really see the whole, guys can only experience fun in a game through a guys eyes. If you make a meaningful character who is a girl, I think guys are equally capable to enjoy the game as if it was a guy. Possibly even more so because they gain an experience they might not otherwise have had.

Tragedy's Rebellion:
No, it's because males identify themselves more easily with other males. Gaming being predominantly a male "thing", developers cater more to them. I doubt any developer have ever said to themselves "We won't make a woman a main character in this WWII game just because women need to stay in the kitchen".

No, its a bit more then that, that's why I pulled up the topic. I don't think developers have an issue with creating female leads even if it is a male dominated market (which is less the case nowadays then it used to be) and evidence of that is Tomb Raider and Pandamonium, Heck, even Blood Rayne, these are old games in the times when less females played games.

I know the views towards Lara Croft were pretty sexist, but nonetheless, she was a powerful character in gaming, its only because the games have become a little dry that they are in less demand, not necessarily to do with her. But the refresh TR releasing soon is evidence that women too can be put in difficult situations that mean life or death.

It happens in movies as well, you will always see in zombie flicks males being ripped apart by zombies, never will you see that happen to females and that could be the reasoning for games as well.

Take Issac for example, in the first game he didn't speak, if it wasn't for the support characters and flashbacks, he could have been a she or heck, even an alien for all we knew, so there wasn't that much stopping them from making him a her as well, giving gamers that choice and simply tweaking the plot a little. They just wanted to avoid putting females in that kind of danger or harm.

it upsets us more, same reason getting hit in the testicles is so very unpleasant, it directly threatens the continuation of our genes, so we have an atavistic hate of it.

Perfect dark .
Dino crisis
Parasite eve
Mirrors edge
Final fantasy x-2
final fantasy xiii
Final fantasy 6 ( debatable)
Xenosaga (debatable)
Kingdom hearts (joke )
Metroid
Velvet assassin
Portal ( i think)

And im sure there are many more

Oh you mean war games with manly men with muscles bigger than their heads . Yeah although there are women that go to war , it's a tiny percentage . So having a female main character in CoD is boarderline unrealistic , plus i don't want to relive metroid other M ever again.

Edit: Thought of some more , Tomb raider , X-blades , Silent freaking hill 3 (comon you can't get any more greusome than that !) Resident evil , Clock tower 3 , Wet , Alice . Okay i' going to stop here you get my point

... Could be the realism factor. Or it could be more like women are supposed to be damsels in distress and men are supposed to be heroes. People want to be heroes, not damsels.

Tragedy's Rebellion:
No, it's because males identify themselves more easily with other males. Gaming being predominantly a male "thing", developers cater more to them.

Well, yeah, that's another point. Except if you were to picture a knight in shining armour right now you probably think more of a man standing majestically in a gleaming suit of metal in front of a waving flag than you do of a Joan of Arc knock-off (Want a description for her? Hunchbacked, crooked toothed and cross-eyed, wearing a rusting WW1 German spiked helmet and a mouldy kitchen apron with the words 'I'm a feminist' scrawled in crayon over the front).

HassEsser:

Chamale:
It's a subtle form of sexism, probably descended from the belief that men should go fight in wars while women stay in the kitchen.

Everything is some sort of "-ism" these days. . .

Not everything an -ism, but treating members of one gender differently in media because of their gender is sexist.

I'd rather play the Metroid Prime series over ANY of the drivel churned out today

Female lead---Check
Pretty violent---Check
Insane feeling of baddassery----Check
Awesome series---Check

Anyone makes a reference to this and OPs FPS comment, I will kick you square in the bollocks
Metroid Prime is NOT an FPS

Chamale:
I have noticed that video games and movies tend to shy away from showing women being killed, especially not as violently as the men getting killed. It's a subtle form of sexism, probably descended from the belief that men should go fight in wars while women stay in the kitchen.

I would say it is because of fear that all those crazy so called "feminists" will cry out when such scenes are showed. Followed by protests and lawsuits.

There are enough games that prove the thesis otherwise. Strong, female leads. But it takes a lot more "guts" and efford from the devs to create such a charakter as mr testosteron number 56 who is also expandable.

Many publishers see it as a risk to sales. I'd also like to see people move beyond whatever stupid instinctual aversion they have to gibbing females, in any case.

On the subject of women rarely dying violent deaths in video games, in Alpha Protocol

Ladies are getting deaths that are equally as gruesome as guys in games nowadays, slowly but surely, e.g. Shadows of the Damned or The Darkness - which I suppose coincides with the fact that there are more female protagonists now.

Well, we can't have a female main character without sparking some type of controversy.

You know the drill, "Her breastz r shwing! Covr or we ban gamz! She iz killing too muchz! Tone down Violence! Also, make it have unicorns and fru-fru colorz. Theeen we might consider..."

This is what happens when the general public can not be mature about what type of gender is being portrayed in a game. Male gamers want buff manly characters with 8-inch wide muscles and big, bloody guns. Female gamers probably couldn't care less but I bet they would like to play as a nice, rounded female character who isn't a walking stereotype. (Like Lilith from Boderlands. She was not sexually portayed and she fits in just fine with the rest of the group. Or Elena from Uncharted. She is as real as all of us. She has feelings and character.)

pulse2:
....We like to depict females in a more positive light and don't like the concept of them being hurt?

I say this because lets take GTA4 for example, its quite apparent that there is a majority male AI, pedestrians, main characters etc, much of this could be because the developers suspected males gamers would have a violence towards women approach, maybe not, who knows. WWE games have now separated males and females in their games, which to me seems pretty stupid, I can understand the realism approach, but it kind of defeats the purpose of even putting females in the game, the number of matches you can have with females included is limited and they can never directly compete with the males, so why even bother putting them in the game? I don't JUST want to play normal and tag matches, I want to play all with any character I feel like choosing. Besides that we have very macho male orientated games from FPS to Sandbox and few feature female protagonists.

Its nice to see the choice available in games like Dragon Age and Fallout, but what about other games?

But like I said, do you think think that its the protective nature that we have of females and violence? Could it be political correctness? Why can't there be a female protagonist in Dead Space? Is it because she'd suffer the same morbid deaths as Issac does? Like someone said, why no females in FPS games?

What do you think it is and do you think things should change or stay as they are?

There was Elizabeta... (I think that was her name) in GTA4. She shoots a guy in the face in a cut scene and makes a living selling cocaine.

Seems to be doing fine in a man's world.

Chamale:
I have noticed that video games and movies tend to shy away from showing women being killed, especially not as violently as the men getting killed. It's a subtle form of sexism, probably descended from the belief that men should go fight in wars while women stay in the kitchen.

There's a lot of truth to this statement, I think. Take God of War 3 as an example. Notice all the people Kratos kills in very graphic ways. You watch from Poseidon's point of view as Kratos kills him up until his eyes are poked out. You cut the legs off of Hermes. Rip out Hades' soul. Punch Hercules until he doesn't have a face anymore.

And then there's Aphrodite and Hera. Well, Kratos doesn't even lay a hand on Aphrodite (in terms of murder) and completely ignores Hera. He seems to regard her as a drunk that isn't worth his time. It's not until she insults Pandora that Kratos kills her. By strangling her with one hand. And it's not interactive. Literally the only non-interactive and non gruesome kill in the entire game is a middle aged drunk woman. He'll burn a man trapped in Hades, um, alive (that was actually gonna help him), but Hera gets a free pass.

DEAD SPACE SERIES SPOILERS

dead space? while the main character is male there are female necromorphs Nicole is dead Kendra gets smeared all over the place by the hive mind bitch deserved it too.

in the 2nd game Ellie gets an eye torn out daina is spaced/shot.

in dead space extraction Catherine Howell murdered/allowed to die.

the cartoons have major if not main female characters that either get spaced or lobotomised. among lesser character who kill themselves/get killed.

and many random victims.

I think you used a bad example of games to prove your point heh.

krazykidd:
Perfect dark .
Dino crisis
Parasite eve
Mirrors edge
Final fantasy x-2
final fantasy xiii
Final fantasy 6 ( debatable)
Xenosaga (debatable)
Kingdom hearts (joke )
Metroid
Velvet assassin
Portal ( i think)

And im sure there are many more

Oh you mean war games with manly men with muscles bigger than their heads . Yeah although there are women that go to war , it's a tiny percentage . So having a female main character in CoD is boarderline unrealistic , plus i don't want to relive metroid other M ever again.

Perfect reply, I would have mentioned these games as an example of where developers have tried to do something different, at the same time moving away from the cliche and stereotype that women and too fragile for violence. Like you said, take Metroid, of anything, people hated the fact that they gave her too much personality in the latest game, it made her seem weak, while in previous games she came across as deadly, silent and focused on her mission, unaware of the feelings of fear.

In fact, I tend to think that Japan (despite how much we call them backwards developers) give women quite a lot of empowerment. I can think of hundreds of powerful gaming, anime and cartoon characters that I genuinely liked from Japan, for example, at the top of my favourites, the "Major Motoko" in Ghost in a Shell who is just hands down badass. In fact, I see her as symbolic in a way because her strength seemed realistic for a woman at the same time, she showed typical female emotion, proving that she wasn't some kind of unnatural female robot fighting and killing for the sake of it.

Now, giving her a game anything like MGS, I would enjoy that, probably more so then I would Gears of war. Not because she is female, but because she has more reason for what she is doing and seems a bit more human and realistic to me. Not to mention the fact the plot would be quite superb if its anything like the series.

Tragedy's Rebellion:
No, it's because males identify themselves more easily with other males. Gaming being predominantly a male "thing", developers cater more to them. I doubt any developer have ever said to themselves "We won't make a woman a main character in this WWII game just because women need to stay in the kitchen".

That may be true, in that this is what the developers think, but it is not true that males can only identify with male characters. A lot of the time, games are used to experience different circumstances that don't exist in a player's everyday life. Gender , although very meaningful , is a circumstance. For example, I found that playing FF X-2 had a fun kind of strangeness to it, despite the fact that it is actually a pretty bad game.

Because violent video games are written by men 98% of the time and a dude writing a female character either turns out really cheesey, big breasted idiot, dependent on lead male character... catch my drift?

Look at The Other M -.-;;;;

ryo02:
dead space? while main character is male there are female necromorphs Nicole is dead Kendra gets smeared all over the place by the hive mind bitch deserved it too.

in the 2nd game Ellie gets an eye torn out daina is spaced/shot.

in dead space extraction Catherine Howell murdered/allowed to die.

the cartoons have major if not main female characters that either get spaced or lobotomised. among lesser character who kill themselves/get killed.

and many random victims.

I think you used a bad example of games to prove your point heh.

Yes, but rarely do you see it as graphically as you see the males, and those dead are already dead, not NOW being killed. I don't think its as bad an example as you might think it is, I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise, I've played all of them. :/ If anything, Capcom has more female morbid death, in Resident Evil Shiva could die in pretty much all the same ways Chris the main character could. Its examples like this I'm using as a benchmark.

the spud:
That's society. More males game=more games with male protagonists. I would like to see more games with female protagonists, but publishers want guarunteed income.

Tragedy's Rebellion:
No, it's because males identify themselves more easily with other males. Gaming being predominantly a male "thing", developers cater more to them. I doubt any developer have ever said to themselves "We won't make a woman a main character in this WWII game just because women need to stay in the kitchen".

Yeah. It's basically this. Males relate better with other males.

There are a lot of female gamers yes. But, women can relate to male protagonists more easily than Men can relate to Female Protagonists. So honestly, Male Protagonists have potential to appeal to both markets.

It may be more than "It's a male-dominated market," But that's a large part. Possibly the vast majority of it. Guys want to play as guys, for the most part.

krazykidd:
Perfect dark .
Dino crisis
Parasite eve
Mirrors edge
Final fantasy x-2
final fantasy xiii
Final fantasy 6 ( debatable)
Xenosaga (debatable)
Kingdom hearts (joke )
Metroid
Velvet assassin
Portal ( i think)

And im sure there are many more

Oh you mean war games with manly men with muscles bigger than their heads . Yeah although there are women that go to war , it's a tiny percentage . So having a female main character in CoD is boarderline unrealistic , plus i don't want to relive metroid other M ever again.

Is that a Noa avatar? Sorry, it's off topic, but you rarely see anyone that even seems aware that game even existed. And it's such a same.

Probably could have included Legend of Legaia in that list. Noa may not have been smart (she was raised by a wolf in a cave), but she was definitely a strong and brave female character. Maybe not the lead, but she was pretty close to it as Vahn was silent.

Kurai Angelo:

pulse2:
....We like to depict females in a more positive light and don't like the concept of them being hurt?

I say this because lets take GTA4 for example, its quite apparent that there is a majority male AI, pedestrians, main characters etc, much of this could be because the developers suspected males gamers would have a violence towards women approach, maybe not, who knows. WWE games have now separated males and females in their games, which to me seems pretty stupid, I can understand the realism approach, but it kind of defeats the purpose of even putting females in the game, the number of matches you can have with females included is limited and they can never directly compete with the males, so why even bother putting them in the game? I don't JUST want to play normal and tag matches, I want to play all with any character I feel like choosing. Besides that we have very macho male orientated games from FPS to Sandbox and few feature female protagonists.

Its nice to see the choice available in games like Dragon Age and Fallout, but what about other games?

But like I said, do you think think that its the protective nature that we have of females and violence? Could it be political correctness? Why can't there be a female protagonist in Dead Space? Is it because she'd suffer the same morbid deaths as Issac does? Like someone said, why no females in FPS games?

What do you think it is and do you think things should change or stay as they are?

There was Elizabeta... (I think that was her name) in GTA4. She shoots a guy in the face in a cut scene and makes a living selling cocaine.

Seems to be doing fine in a man's world.

Haha, but she shot a MAN in the face, and she never gets killed herself :D

In fact, she doesn't even get caught by the police, partially because Niko saved her ass, but who knows why else :)

I do like how the men in GTA4 rush over to defend females if you start fights with them, I liked that, it was small, but it was incredibly effective, but it also makes me realize that the developers (Rockstar) knew full well they wanted less violence towards females (beyond what you can do already _) then there would otherwise be if there was 50/50 AI sexes and a lead female character :)

It's easier for a woman to find offense to a more extreme depiction of violence/sexism/etc with another woman involved, and litigation is still quite a fad for those who see lawsuits as "money in the pocket."

Least that has been my thoughts on it. Males relating to males makes sense too, but men have been taking a route towards more "female" behaviors within the past one or two decades, so I'm not sure that's the case either.

we live in the 21st century, and video games still follow social norms of the 1950s. Men fight wars (any FPS, take ur pic) and women belong in the kitchen (COOKING MAMA). i mean, GoW just getting a female character proves its still a long road until women are equally depicted in video games

jesskit:

Tragedy's Rebellion:
No, it's because males identify themselves more easily with other males. Gaming being predominantly a male "thing", developers cater more to them.

I never quite understood this. Yes sure it works for the majority of cases but just have a look at the popularity of Tomb Raider. Sure you could say is cause of the polygon overrun that occured in the first game (you know what Im talking about), but honestly I think people actually connected with Lara. I don't really see the whole, guys can only experience fun in a game through a guys eyes. If you make a meaningful character who is a girl, I think guys are equally capable to enjoy the game as if it was a guy. Possibly even more so because they gain an experience they might not otherwise have had.

I understand what the publishers are trying to do, but I don't think it is entirely true. As a male, I can say that as long as a character is well written, I can find some way to identify with them, regardless of gender. As a Brony, I have never thought that the show would be any better if most of the characters were male. The show knows what it is and it's proud of it, which I respect it for. It has also brought a side in me that I probably never would have found otherwise. It helped expand my comfort zone and taught me to not always take a first impression to heart.

Saltyk:

krazykidd:
Perfect dark .
Dino crisis
Parasite eve
Mirrors edge
Final fantasy x-2
final fantasy xiii
Final fantasy 6 ( debatable)
Xenosaga (debatable)
Kingdom hearts (joke )
Metroid
Velvet assassin
Portal ( i think)

And im sure there are many more

Oh you mean war games with manly men with muscles bigger than their heads . Yeah although there are women that go to war , it's a tiny percentage . So having a female main character in CoD is boarderline unrealistic , plus i don't want to relive metroid other M ever again.

Is that a Noa avatar? Sorry, it's off topic, but you rarely see anyone that even seems aware that game even existed. And it's such a same.

Probably could have included Legend of Legaia in that list. Noa may not have been smart (she was raised by a wolf in a cave), but she was definitely a strong and brave female character. Maybe not the lead, but she was pretty close to it as Vahn was silent.

Yup it is. The game really isn't well known, which is why i chose this avatar , (plus noa is awsome) , kinda like an easter egg for anyone that actually knows/ played the game. The reason i didn't add LoL ( legend of legaia ) to the list , is because she isn't actually the main character, although she has ties to the main vilain ( debatably more than vahn ) . Also you make a very good point about vahn being silent , i never actually thought about that, she really does take the spotlight in that game.Which now makes me wonder why vahn is silent , other than the 'yes & no ' answers. You sir have given me a reason to play this game again :)

In Dreamweb I remember Ryan blew one of the 'evil ones' in half. She (her top half I mean) had crawled into the other room trying to get away. Ryan followed her and started chatting with her ... I remember at one point he mumbles, mostly to himself "It hurts, doesn't it?"

Then, once he was satisfied she'd suffered enough, he blew her brains all over the carpet at point blank range.

It was at this point I really started to suspect that Ryan was a complete fucking loon and the people I was killing were just unlucky bastards his addled schizophrenic mind had targeted.

I wasn't so bothered by the men being killed though, often equally horribly.

MianusIzBleeding:
I'd rather play the Metroid Prime series over ANY of the drivel churned out today

Female lead---Check
Pretty violent---Check
Insane feeling of baddassery----Check
Awesome series---Check

Anyone makes a reference to this and OPs FPS comment, I will kick you square in the bollocks
Metroid Prime is NOT an FPS

The only downside is that the lead could have been a fucking cat; the only time we ever hear her during the first 2 is when she gasps and wheezes when she gets hurt. The only Metroid game in which Samus being a female mattered much story-wise was Other M. Look how that shit turned out. Apparently that bad-ass bounty hunter I loved in Prime has more daddy-issues than a Vegas stripper.

Besides, whenever the industry tries this it's handled incredibly poorly. It's either an excuse to put breasts into the game, some cliche love interest, or ultra-feminine gender role #47 to pad out the cast.

There are many valid reasons why women aren't the main protagonists in violent games, but if they were it would make more interesting for the plot.

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