Sheogorath and Skyrim (Question for Clarity?) (Spoilers)

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Last warning for spoilers...

Theoretically, yes. The easiest way to look at it is to just think that you're talking to Sheogorath and there has only ever been one Sheogorath. Your character shouldn't know any better anyway.

It's not really explained for sure. I think it's basically your choice whether it's your old character or the same old Prince of Madness we knew and loved in Shivering Isles.

I think it is. But your character has transformed into the exact same thing as the 'old' sheogorath. Because hes essentially an embodiment of madness, so apparently sheogorath is what pure madness looks like in the elder scrolls.

He mentioned when talking about martin septim turning into a dragon that he was there. You know who was there when martin turned into a dragon? your character, the old sheogorath wasnt!

It SHOULD be your old character, but mine was a Dark Elf, so that can't be him. This Sheogorath has the same voice and beard as the one I replaced, and so it seems he came back for his old job, somehow.

Fieldy409:
I think it is. But your character has transformed into the exact same thing as the 'old' sheogorath. Because hes essentially an embodiment of madness, so apparently sheogorath is what pure madness looks like in the elder scrolls.

He mentioned when talking about martin septim turning into a dragon that he was there. You know who was there when martin turned into a dragon? your character, the old sheogorath wasnt!

Although this is a great point as well.

Freaky Lou:
It SHOULD be your old character, but mine was a Dark Elf, so that can't be him. This Sheogorath has the same voice and beard as the one I replaced, and so it seems he came back for his old job, somehow.

Well, being Sheogorath would essentially make you a god, able to reshape reality as you see fit. One would think that this would include the capacity to grow a beard.

Well,

So, no, you probably arnt talking to your old character.
Plus, you can kind of consider the whole DLC a bit non-canon. I dont take it has canon. I dont take half the quests in the game as truly part of the story though.

I just figure that Victoria, my female Imperial main character in Oblivion, got fed up with how things were going in Tamriel, and retreated to the Shivering Isles , fully immersed herself in her role and lost herself to madness. Thus, now she looks just like Sheogorath.

That's just me.

Your character "mantled" Sheogorath, walking like him until he walked like you. Or the other way around. TES cosmotology is very confusing.

kouriichi:
Well,

So, no, you probably arnt talking to your old character.
Plus, you can kind of consider the whole DLC a bit non-canon. I dont take it has canon. I dont take half the quests in the game as truly part of the story though.

However by defeating Jyggalag your character beat the cycle and were made into a Daedric Prince.

"At the end of every Era, Jyggalag was allowed to take on his true form once again, and reconquer his lands, an event known as the Graymarch. After that, however, he would be transformed back into Sheogorath, who would spread madness upon his lands once more. The player can end this cycle by defeating Jyggalag during the Graymarch occurring at the end of the third era. This releases him from his curse, allowing him to remain in his true form instead of transforming back into Sheogorath. After defeating Jyggalag, the player is named the new Sheogorath."

Source: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sheogorath

If I'm to follow that then the cycle no longer exists and both remain as Daedric princes?

Javarock:

kouriichi:
Well,

So, no, you probably arnt talking to your old character.
Plus, you can kind of consider the whole DLC a bit non-canon. I dont take it has canon. I dont take half the quests in the game as truly part of the story though.

However by defeating Jyggalag your character beat the cycle and were made into a Daedric Prince.

"At the end of every Era, Jyggalag was allowed to take on his true form once again, and reconquer his lands, an event known as the Graymarch. After that, however, he would be transformed back into Sheogorath, who would spread madness upon his lands once more. The player can end this cycle by defeating Jyggalag during the Graymarch occurring at the end of the third era. This releases him from his curse, allowing him to remain in his true form instead of transforming back into Sheogorath. After defeating Jyggalag, the player is named the new Sheogorath."

Source: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sheogorath

If I'm to follow that then the cycle no longer exists and both remain as Daedric princes?

Well it may be broken, but daedric princes cant truly be killed.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra
"A Daedroth's physical form can be ruined, but they cannot be truly killed; the soul or Animus of a slain Daedroth returns to the void of Oblivion until it manages to re-coalesce into a physical form again"

So in time, like daedric artifacts, they return to back to their plane of oblivion. So while the cycle may be "broken", in time it would fix itself like all things regarding the daedra.

I'm pretty sure Sheogorath is insane. So he was just fucking with you and you were doing the Fishstick the whole time you thought you were questing through the Shivering Isles. He's like Cthlulu, but you don't die and there's cheese. Trololololol...

Since the details about "the prisoner" are almost non-existent (in the book about TES4 in Skyrim), it can also be assumed that you become the Gray Fox in canon.

kouriichi:

Javarock:

kouriichi:
Well,

So, no, you probably arnt talking to your old character.
Plus, you can kind of consider the whole DLC a bit non-canon. I dont take it has canon. I dont take half the quests in the game as truly part of the story though.

However by defeating Jyggalag your character beat the cycle and were made into a Daedric Prince.

"At the end of every Era, Jyggalag was allowed to take on his true form once again, and reconquer his lands, an event known as the Graymarch. After that, however, he would be transformed back into Sheogorath, who would spread madness upon his lands once more. The player can end this cycle by defeating Jyggalag during the Graymarch occurring at the end of the third era. This releases him from his curse, allowing him to remain in his true form instead of transforming back into Sheogorath. After defeating Jyggalag, the player is named the new Sheogorath."

Source: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sheogorath

If I'm to follow that then the cycle no longer exists and both remain as Daedric princes?

Well it may be broken, but daedric princes cant truly be killed.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra
"A Daedroth's physical form can be ruined, but they cannot be truly killed; the soul or Animus of a slain Daedroth returns to the void of Oblivion until it manages to re-coalesce into a physical form again"

So in time, like daedric artifacts, they return to back to their plane of oblivion. So while the cycle may be "broken", in time it would fix itself like all things regarding the daedra.

He didn't kill him though, He prevented the curse the other Daedra put onto him.

This is just completely confusing. Guess he's not called the prince of madness just for show....

Javarock:

kouriichi:

Javarock:

However by defeating Jyggalag your character beat the cycle and were made into a Daedric Prince.

"At the end of every Era, Jyggalag was allowed to take on his true form once again, and reconquer his lands, an event known as the Graymarch. After that, however, he would be transformed back into Sheogorath, who would spread madness upon his lands once more. The player can end this cycle by defeating Jyggalag during the Graymarch occurring at the end of the third era. This releases him from his curse, allowing him to remain in his true form instead of transforming back into Sheogorath. After defeating Jyggalag, the player is named the new Sheogorath."

Source: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sheogorath

If I'm to follow that then the cycle no longer exists and both remain as Daedric princes?

Well it may be broken, but daedric princes cant truly be killed.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra
"A Daedroth's physical form can be ruined, but they cannot be truly killed; the soul or Animus of a slain Daedroth returns to the void of Oblivion until it manages to re-coalesce into a physical form again"

So in time, like daedric artifacts, they return to back to their plane of oblivion. So while the cycle may be "broken", in time it would fix itself like all things regarding the daedra.

He didn't kill him though, He prevented the curse the other Daedra put onto him.

This is just completely confusing. Guess he's not called the prince of madness just for show....

Well, he banished Jyggalag to brake the cycle, so they did return to two separate aedra, but both of them will return in time.

You know, i bet Sheogorath got cursed on purpose to put this headache on mortals. xD

Skyrim implies through Sheogoraths dialogue that the God you see before you is actually the protagonist from Oblivion. It is probably mostly for convenience and consistency that they made Sheogorath look like he did back in Oblivion. Perhaps there was a slow transformation after the protagonists ascension that turned him/her into the archtypical Sheogorath? Kouriichi made the case pretty well that all things Daedra fix themselves and perhaps the same thing holds true for their appearance.

kouriichi:

Javarock:

kouriichi:
Well,

So, no, you probably arnt talking to your old character.
Plus, you can kind of consider the whole DLC a bit non-canon. I dont take it has canon. I dont take half the quests in the game as truly part of the story though.

However by defeating Jyggalag your character beat the cycle and were made into a Daedric Prince.

"At the end of every Era, Jyggalag was allowed to take on his true form once again, and reconquer his lands, an event known as the Graymarch. After that, however, he would be transformed back into Sheogorath, who would spread madness upon his lands once more. The player can end this cycle by defeating Jyggalag during the Graymarch occurring at the end of the third era. This releases him from his curse, allowing him to remain in his true form instead of transforming back into Sheogorath. After defeating Jyggalag, the player is named the new Sheogorath."

Source: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sheogorath

If I'm to follow that then the cycle no longer exists and both remain as Daedric princes?

Well it may be broken, but daedric princes cant truly be killed.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra
"A Daedroth's physical form can be ruined, but they cannot be truly killed; the soul or Animus of a slain Daedroth returns to the void of Oblivion until it manages to re-coalesce into a physical form again"

So in time, like daedric artifacts, they return to back to their plane of oblivion. So while the cycle may be "broken", in time it would fix itself like all things regarding the daedra.

Yes but he isn't killed you see?
Jyggalag remains jyggalag whilst you became sheogorath
this does not mean sheogorath has been killed, this means you are now sheogorath and jyggalag cannot become him once more

I think the shivering isles quests also stated things about this besides it
I have somewhere the vague recollection that jyggalag actually tells you that you might become just like him

Sheogorath DOESN'T look like he did in Oblivion. He looks just like the default character model for the Champion. Come on guys, use your head!

"You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair. Marvelous times! Butterflies, blood, a Fox and severed head... Oh, and the cheese! To die for."

The Champion was canonically a human male and has become completely a new Sheogorath, though considering the true identity of the old Sheogorath, the Champion might well be the first "true" god of madness. However, he is still a good guy. It is pretty obvious he was trying to help the old emperor in his Skyrim quest all along.

Don't forget that Skyrim takes place 200 years after Oblivion. Your character from Oblivion was still mortal. After he died, maybe the old geezer returned somehow. That's what I think happened.

Adam Jensen:
Don't forget that Skyrim takes place 200 years after Oblivion. Your character from Oblivion was still mortal. After he died, maybe the old geezer returned somehow. That's what I think happened.

What if your character became a Daedra?

The current Sheogorath is the Hero of Kvatch, which is your old oblivion character.
He looks different because he has been morphed into the Mad God.

"the Champion replaced Sheogorath after he defeated Jyggalag and became the new God of Madness. It seems that the champion did indeed grow into his station and by the Fourth Era has fully morphed into the new Sheogorath, just as Haskill and Jyggalag foretold."

I haven't played Oblivion, but from what I've read on Elder Scrolls wiki, Sheogorath in Skyrim is indeed the player character from Oblivion.

Yup it is the Hero of the Oblivion Crisis.

Does anyone else think it kind of odd that the Divine Crusader of the Nine Divines (Knights of the Nine) has become a Daedric Lord?

spectrenihlus:
Yup it is the Hero of the Oblivion Crisis.

Does anyone else think it kind of odd that the Divine Crusader of the Nine Divines (Knights of the Nine) has become a Daedric Lord?

I would have loved if sheogorath dropped a line about how he was once head of the thieves, fighters and mages guilds, the listener of the dark brotherhood and the divine crusader!

On the other hand like someone mentioned, the whole thing could have been a delusion cast on you by the madgod. Which the more I think about the more sense it makes!

It is possible to become a god in elderscrolls(a true one, not like vivec!) both malacath and talos did it. An aedra and a daedra.

I was under the impression that during the shivering isles your character becomes a temporary replacement for Jyggalag then stop the Grey march until the real Sheogorath can return. Also is it just me or has he lost his madness. He makes the same jokes about cheese and skipping rope with intestines. You'ld think a mad god would change over 200 years.

I believe it is your character from Oblivion. At the end of The Shivering Isles expansion pack Sheogorath grants you his power to defeat Jyggalag. You defeat Jyggalag and thus ending the cycle and allow Jyggalag to remain in his true form and you become the Mad God. Jyggalag himself even calls you Sheogorath because you have become him.

I can only assume that over the last 200 years your character has morphed into the Mad God because of the power Sheogorath gave him before he turned into Jyggalag. Not only that, but, Sheogorath mentions that he was there when Martin turned himself into the avatar of Akatosh during the Oblivion crisis. I don't know about anyone else but I didn't see Sheogorath in the Imperial City during the battle, so I think that it is your character from Oblivion.

Also, I want it to be your character from Oblivion because that would just be awesome.

Isn't the old man with the grey beard just a Avatar?
I mean, it's not that far fetched for the Oblivion Champion to just take that form as well when he travels to the Nirn

Well... he probably is and isn't at the same time...

This is going to need some explaining.

The Hero of Kvatch, Champion of Cyrodiill, also known as Ann-Marie (if you want your intestines used as jump ropes, or perhaps the Canon Champion was a female Breton and she made a joke) didn't become Sheogorath, and Sheogorath didn't become the Champion. My theory is that they mutually mantled each-other.

Mantling is best described as "You walk like him until he has no choice but to walk like you." You behave exactly like someone or something else for so long that the universe itself can't tell the difference and just merges you. This is how the Morrowind hero became the Nerevine, he mantled the position by acting exactly like the Nerevine would, and once he was the Nerevine he could act like himself to a degree because he WAS the Nerevine. Your head hurt yet? Well it probably will soon.

The Champion of Cyrodiill, under the tutelage of the Original Sheogorath, began to mantle Sheogorath. Had Sheogorath not turned into Jyggilag, then it is very likely that the Champion would have actually pulled off the Mantling and would wind up folded into Sheogorath... and would have become Jyggilag when Sheogorath changed.

Sheogorath changing into Jyggilag freed up his mantle, the Universe didn't have a Sheogorath at all. So the Universe's standards for Mantling dropped slightly. This lead to a reverse mantling from Sheogorath into the Champion of Cyrodill. Sheogorath took on traits of the Champion, namely a predisposition towards helping people (The original would never help someone, even a dead person, become MORE SANE).

From the other end, the Champion became more like the Mad God. The mood swings, the eccentricity, and so on all came from the Champion changing to be able to claim the mantle, and the mantle changed so that the Universe could hand it off to someone. The result is that the New Sheogorath is ligitimately different from the original.

Oh, and as for the appearance changing. There is a simple explaination for that phenominon... WABBAJACK! Seriously, its his Daedric Artifact. He probably just Wabbajacked himself into looking like Old Sheogorath for kicks.

It could just be some references, but I really do believe it was your old player character from Oblivion, it makes perfect sense.

The explanation for the difference of appearance could be that your body was reshaped to be what Sheogorath should look like as a mad god.

kouriichi:
Well,

So, no, you probably arnt talking to your old character.
Plus, you can kind of consider the whole DLC a bit non-canon. I dont take it has canon. I dont take half the quests in the game as truly part of the story though.

Is it weird I was just looking this up today.

OT: False the DLC is considered canon. I red the article just today and it said within 200 years your character took on the personality, voice and likeness of the mad god, even his immortality. So theoretically yes, Sheogorath in Skyrim is the champion of Oblivion.

Here is a link with all the info http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sheogorath

Adam Jensen:
Don't forget that Skyrim takes place 200 years after Oblivion. Your character from Oblivion was still mortal. After he died, maybe the old geezer returned somehow. That's what I think happened.

I agree. I imagined that 'becoming' Sheogorath was purely from the title. Sheogorath was never an actual daedra, but instead was Jygglag cursed with madness, so taking on that rank can't possibly make you become a daedra. Perhaps your character continued to rule there, like a King, until their passing, at which case a new Sheogorath would be chosen as a different mortal, and so on and so forth, until we reached the time of Skyrim. Since his role is associated with madness, I can only presume that this new Sheogorath modeled himself after the original, and perhaps fooled himself into believing your past exploits were his own until he truly believed he was you. It is likely, considering how mad he is. Jygglag himself said that he didn't understand what your taking on Sheogorath's role meant, but he certainly keeps calling you a mortal.

At any rate, I don't want it to be. I don't like the idea of my pious and devout female Breton character became deranged, and also male.

Captcha: Choco lazer boom!

Are.....are you feeling alright, Captcha? Are you Sheogorath, by any chance?

EDIT: Another thought occured to me. Wasn't that whole quest taking place inside the mind of Pelagius the Mad? It's not too hard of a stretch to say that the Sheogorath there is just the embodiment of Pelagius' madness, or even a remnant of the original Sheogorath still trapped there.

kouriichi:
Well,

So, no, you probably arnt talking to your old character.
Plus, you can kind of consider the whole DLC a bit non-canon. I dont take it has canon. I dont take half the quests in the game as truly part of the story though.

Except that Bethesda has made the SI expansion as canon. You can pretend it isn't, of course. But, it officially is.

Ranorak:
Isn't the old man with the grey beard just a Avatar?
I mean, it's not that far fetched for the Oblivion Champion to just take that form as well when he travels to the Nirn

and i think we have a winner. makes more sense that the character just choses to appear as people have always expected the mad god to look like which cuts down on the "why dont you look like him"questions and gets straight to to messing with peoples heads bit

wombat_of_war:

and i think we have a winner. makes more sense that the character just choses to appear as people have always expected the mad god to look like which cuts down on the "why dont you look like him"questions and gets straight to to messing with peoples heads bit

one cannot CHOOSE to change his form after he has mantled someone.

Mantling is the process of "walk like them until they must walk like you". It is a hijacking and replacing of a being's very mythic self.

Mortal belief alters reality, and when one has convinced other that they are Sheogorath, one becomes Sheogorath in all forms.

There is no Champion of Cyrodiil to transform and puppet Sheogorath's form, there only is Sheogorath.

You know, I just want to know what happened to Jyggalag. It's been 200 years and he never once let anyone else know he's back?

OT: The Princes are known to be shape-changers, so it's not far-fetched to think it's the Champion of Cyrodil, who got bored with his mortal form. It does seem to break my character though, a ruthless assassin would make a lousy god for artists, painters and crazies.

Elfgore:

kouriichi:
Well,

So, no, you probably arnt talking to your old character.
Plus, you can kind of consider the whole DLC a bit non-canon. I dont take it has canon. I dont take half the quests in the game as truly part of the story though.

Is it weird I was just looking this up today.

OT: False the DLC is considered canon. I red the article just today and it said within 200 years your character took on the personality, voice and likeness of the mad god, even his immortality. So theoretically yes, Sheogorath in Skyrim is the champion of Oblivion.

Here is a link with all the info http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sheogorath

Ahh, ok. I never heard they made it canon. Im still not a fan of the idea that he or she just... "Changes" into "The Madgod" in every way, shape and form. That kind of ruins any illusions of choice as to what our characters were in Oblivion, and how they lived out their days. But that is just me though ):

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