What's with the MMO hate, you hateful haters?

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It's a pretty observable trend that a sizable portion of this community hates Massively Multiplayer games, or specifically MMORPGS, in the vein of WoW, and TOR, etc. And when I say "hate", I mean ya'll just LOATHE them. As though they were some form of gaming herpes. You can feel the lips curling in disgust through the screen.

What's going on with that?

Is it the subscription fee? You know that most MMOs are designed to be played for hundreds of hours, yeah? On an hour per dollar basis, they're arguably one of the cheapest forms of entertainment in existence. Hating them for being too expensive is like hating Kraft Dinner for being too fancy.

Is it the fact you're forced to endure the company of other people? I can sort of understand that, because MMO communities are full of loathsome twats, but here we all are on an internet forum. You see what I'm getting at here, surely. You don't need me to spell it out for you.

Is it the fact a lot of you poor beggars are laboring away on consoles, instead of playing games on a PC like proper gamers? I KID, I KID.

Is it because you're all under the age of 20, and you don't have a credit card, or you do have a credit card, but it's full of charges for Ramen noodles and Eastern European porn?

I don't think I've ever seen such a polarizing genre of games in all my years of gaming. You're all such mean girls about it. I demand your hostile, sneering explanations, post haste.

It's the double M in the acronym. It's like the genre is too good to have just the one M.

I think it's because of the fact that from an "outsiders" perspective, they seem to suck out a persons soul

And their wallet

Mostly their wallet

The grind. People don't like to feel their time is being wasted, which is what grinds can do. They would rather play the game instead of preparing to play it.

Jdb:
The grind. People don't like to feel their time is being wasted, which is what grinds can do. They would rather play the game instead of preparing to play it.

I hear that, but you need to define "grinding". The term grind gets thrown around a lot, and the definition is, to say the least, nebulous.

What makes something "playing" instead of "grinding"?

Legiondude:
I think it's because of the fact that from an "outsiders" perspective, they seem to suck out a persons soul

And their wallet

Mostly their wallet

Well, they can be very addictive, it's true. I've put in over 1,000 hours on a couple of single player games. No one has ever accused those single player games as sucking out a person's soul. I actually think the degree to which they're addictive has been greatly overstated, too, since Everquest. The whole skinner box thing has quieted down since then as a design philosophy. Newer MMOs are a lot less psychologically cruel.

As for the wallet thing, no no no! I spend 300% less on games when playing MMOs vs playing regular titles, even taking Steam sales into account. MMOs are super CHEAP, unless you fall ass backwards into microtransactions.

Personally they just aren't fun for me. I prefer to have more say over combat than clicking autoattack and then clicking hotkeys for spells and such. It's the one thing I just loathed about Dragon Age: Origins.

The only one that's ever been fun for me was Dungeon Fighter Online and even that didn't last very long. That one plays like an old school arcade brawler.

Also the multiplayer aspect does turn me off of them a lot. I tend to have more fun with a game when playing alone. In multiplayer I tend to wind up grouped with either useless idiots who know less about how the game works than I do, or high level players that make me feel useless.

My friend talked me into giving WoW a try and rather than let me experience it at my own pace like I wanted to he insisted on power-leveling me so he'd have another raid partner.

I personally don't have any problems with MMOs, heck I used to play one, I just don't enjoy playing them that much anymore because the time and dedication it takes to get up to a level where the veteran players don't kill you with one attack is more than I'm willing to put in. Also monthly fees make them rather unappealing, if they were all free I'd probably go back to runescape.

BloatedGuppy:
It's a pretty observable trend that a sizable portion of this community hates Massively Multiplayer games, or specifically MMORPGS, in the vein of WoW, and TOR, etc. And when I say "hate", I mean ya'll just LOATHE them. As though they were some form of gaming herpes. You can feel the lips curling in disgust through the screen.

What's going on with that?

The idea of saying "an MMORPG ruined my life" is a strong possibility in many cases, it's probably a strong correlation between the intense loathing the genre receives; though you should keep in mind that this doesn't just apply to the extreme cases, even a minor dependency to an MMORPG can cause problems which are noteworthy. Do these minor cases ruin lives outright? No, but they can certainly get in the way of enjoying many other things in one's life.

That alone pretty much results in a very bitter former MMORPG player, and it's only made worse by the fact it's by design. Becoming dependent on a game may partially be the player's own fault, but those who made the game are not entirely innocent; the fundamental design of the genre is unethical, and the most those responsible try to do is mitagate the severity of the symptoms.

Those minor cases mentioned earlier?
They're endemnic.

BloatedGuppy:
Is it the subscription fee? You know that most MMOs are designed to be played for hundreds of hours, yeah? On an hour per dollar basis, they're arguably one of the cheapest forms of entertainment in existence. Hating them for being too expensive is like hating Kraft Dinner for being too fancy.

It's cheaper to play an MMORPG, that's true... but again, those who loathe the genre are usually former players. They paid the fee, probably quite happily at the time; they hate the genre now for other reasons. At most, they detest that particular aspect for what it represents -- continually profitting off of an engineered dependency.

BloatedGuppy:
Is it the fact you're forced to endure the company of other people? I can sort of understand that, because MMO communities are full of loathsome twats, but here we all are on an internet forum. You see what I'm getting at here, surely. You don't need me to spell it out for you.

Certainly not helping the matter, certainly... but I'm sure you've seen many MMO forums as well. They're some of the worst communities you can find, this is friendly & welcoming in comparison. When the community in question is worse than the internet at large, there's a wee bit of a problem there.

Until TOR I was actually a bit afraid of MMORPGs. I read a pretty well written article a while back by a guy detailing how a combination of Everquest and Depression cost him several years of his life. Obviously the game wasn't the problem, the depression was and the game became his way of coping much like some people turn to alcohol or drugs but the idea that I might start playing a game and become a pale skinned computer bound fiend frightened me.

I finally took a chance and bought TOR about two weeks ago. So far I haven't taken any steps down the path of gaming addiction. I'm not playing it any more than any other game I've played and it's a lot of fun.

I'm not sure what people mean by the grind either. I suppose if you play an MMO only to level up so that you can raid it would feel like a grind. So far that's one of the benefits of TOR. It doesn't feel grindy to me because I'm doing a story while completing quests.

aftohsix:
Until TOR I was actually a bit afraid of MMORPGs. I read a pretty well written article a while back by a guy detailing how a combination of Everquest and Depression cost him several years of his life. Obviously the game wasn't the problem, the depression was and the game became his way of coping much like some people turn to alcohol or drugs but the idea that I might start playing a game and become a pale skinned computer bound fiend frightened me.

To be fair, your friend had an argument with Everquest.

You might enjoy this: http://www.nickyee.com/eqt/skinner.html

BloatedGuppy:

Jdb:
The grind. People don't like to feel their time is being wasted, which is what grinds can do. They would rather play the game instead of preparing to play it.

I hear that, but you need to define "grinding". The term grind gets thrown around a lot, and the definition is, to say the least, nebulous.

What makes something "playing" instead of "grinding"?

I guess "Grinding" is when you arent playing for fun, but rather, to fullfill a certain Quota, like, say, gearing up for raiding or high-end pvp

Just a guess ofc, i never really did any of that, bu then again, the only time i tried raiding was in WoTLK when my guild 40-manned Zul'Grurub... we wiped thrice ^^

The Abhorrent:
The idea of saying "an MMORPG ruined my life" is a strong possibility in many cases, it's probably a strong correlation between the intense loathing the genre receives; though you should keep in mind that this doesn't just apply to the extreme cases, even a minor dependency to an MMORPG can cause problems which are noteworthy. Do these minor cases ruin lives outright? No, but they can certainly get in the way of enjoying many other things in one's life.

That alone pretty much results in a very bitter former MMORPG player, and it's only made worse by the fact it's by design. Becoming dependent on a game may partially be the player's own fault, but those who made the game are not entirely innocent; the fundamental design of the genre is unethical, and the most those responsible try to do is mitagate the severity of the symptoms.

Those minor cases mentioned earlier?
They're endemnic.

This is a good point that I overlooked, the embittered ex-MMO player who let a MMO run away with his life for a time, but shouldn't that toxic outlook be restricted to the title in question, and not the genre as a whole? Why would you hate EVE if WoW ruined your life? Wasn't it really YOU that ruined your life? Wasn't that lesson learned? When I played CoH obsessively for two weeks, both destroying my vacation and destroying my enthusiasm for CoH, I didn't say "No more MMOs for me, they are EVIL", I said "Boy was I an idiot, I won't be doing that again!". It does seem slightly unfair to lay gamer's inabilities to control their compulsions at the feet of a genre.

With the already noted exception of Everquest, which was somewhat sinister (if awesome!).

The Abhorrent:
Certainly not helping the matter, certainly... but I'm sure you've seen many MMO forums as well. They're some of the worst communities you can find, this is friendly & welcoming in comparison. When the community in question is worse than the internet at large, there's a wee bit of a problem there.

It's really NOT worse than the internet at large, it's just less well moderated, on account of the fact that the idiots are paying customers instead of just passing through. You can't be a vigilant about weeding them out. There's still a core of decent human beings there to be interacted with. I've met some pretty incredibly cool people over the years in MMOs, mingling with the teeming hordes of yahoos.

BloatedGuppy:
It's a pretty observable trend that a sizable portion of this community hates Massively Multiplayer games, or specifically MMORPGS, in the vein of WoW, and TOR, etc. And when I say "hate", I mean ya'll just LOATHE them. As though they were some form of gaming herpes. You can feel the lips curling in disgust through the screen.

What's going on with that?

Is it the subscription fee? You know that most MMOs are designed to be played for hundreds of hours, yeah? On an hour per dollar basis, they're arguably one of the cheapest forms of entertainment in existence. Hating them for being too expensive is like hating Kraft Dinner for being too fancy.

Is it the fact you're forced to endure the company of other people? I can sort of understand that, because MMO communities are full of loathsome twats, but here we all are on an internet forum. You see what I'm getting at here, surely. You don't need me to spell it out for you.

Is it the fact a lot of you poor beggars are laboring away on consoles, instead of playing games on a PC like proper gamers? I KID, I KID.

Is it because you're all under the age of 20, and you don't have a credit card, or you do have a credit card, but it's full of charges for Ramen noodles and Eastern European porn?

I don't think I've ever seen such a polarizing genre of games in all my years of gaming. You're all such mean girls about it. I demand your hostile, sneering explanations, post haste.

Lets see, pay 30 bucks a month to play the same grindfest with no end in sight, or no compelling storyline tying it up, or buy a brand new game that will let me enjoy it for as long as I want even after the main is done, and then I can jump to a another game.

yes you are right, MMOS are the pinnacle of gaming, everyone who doesnt love them is clearly a heathen. /sarcasm

boag:
Lets see, pay 30 bucks a month to play the same grindfest with no end in sight, or no compelling storyline tying it up, or buy a brand new game that will let me enjoy it for as long as I want even after the main is done, and then I can jump to a another game.

yes you are right, MMOS are the pinnacle of gaming, everyone who doesnt love them is clearly a heathen. /sarcasm

THIRTY BUCKS A MONTH? Are we talking pesos here?

"For as long as I want" usually translates into 30-40 hours, depending on genre. That's a fair average, I think.

I certainly never said they were the pinnacle of anything. I'm arguing that they're not the NADIR. You bloody heathen.

Having played MMO's for several years in the past, I did eventually come up with some criticisms, though I am certainly not a "hater" or anything like that. Rather, my problem with MMO's come from the fact that it is exhausting and a never ending cycle of grind/success. Eventually, you get to the point that what you are doing is essentially the same thing over and over again. When that happens, unless you have a massive amount of friends you like to spend time with in the game, it ends up dying a slow death. Still, I managed to sink 5 1/2 years into WoW before the last trace of fun was killed for me, and that decision had less to do with boredom and more to do with Blizzard skullfucking my class (Holy Priest) and healers in general prior to Cataclysm than anything else.

I don't loathe them. I just don't like the endgame. It requires too much repetition in the hopes that you get the item you want with the .005% chance of dropping.

BloatedGuppy:

boag:
Lets see, pay 30 bucks a month to play the same grindfest with no end in sight, or no compelling storyline tying it up, or buy a brand new game that will let me enjoy it for as long as I want even after the main is done, and then I can jump to a another game.

yes you are right, MMOS are the pinnacle of gaming, everyone who doesnt love them is clearly a heathen. /sarcasm

THIRTY BUCKS A MONTH? Are we talking pesos here?

"For as long as I want" usually translates into 30-40 hours, depending on genre. That's a fair average, I think.

I certainly never said they were the pinnacle of anything. I'm arguing that they're not the NADIR. You bloody heathen.

My apologies then, I have not payed for an MMO since Galaxies came out, I have however been privy to the experience at friends requests, and the Grindathon and random drops see to compare to something akin to Disgaea, with the added liability of needing a groupd of 4 to 5 people to take on the monsters that have the best drops, the whole organizing for a weekly shore like that is sickening. I would not wish it upon any enemy.

My hatred for MMOs stem primarily from these issues, and the fact that none has seemed to push past the ideas that have been set by WOW.

But I will admit that it is an illogical hate, that stems deeply from emotional issues derived from Playing RO.

boag:
My apologies then, I have not payed for an MMO since Galaxies came out, I have however been privy to the experience at friends requests, and the Grindathon and random drops see to compare to something akin to Disgaea, with the added liability of needing a groupd of 4 to 5 people to take on the monsters that have the best drops, the whole organizing for a weekly shore like that is sickening. I would not wish it upon any enemy.

My hatred for MMOs stem primarily from these issues, and the fact that none has seemed to push past the ideas that have been set by WOW.

But I will admit that it is an illogical hate, that stems deeply from emotional issues derived from Playing RO.

The genre is definitely moving away from forced grouping, although it's been a gradual push. The days of "me and 40 of my closest friends" seem to be behind us, thank god. As I've gotten older I've become increasingly reluctant to play with strangers, and like to confine my interaction in-game with existing friends and my girlfriend. And each new MMO that has come out has made it easier and easier for me to do that, to the point where advocates of the old school of forced grouping and massive raids are now sullenly accusing the genre of having become "Massively Single Player".

Yureina:
Eventually, you get to the point that what you are doing is essentially the same thing over and over again. When that happens, unless you have a massive amount of friends you like to spend time with in the game, it ends up dying a slow death. Still, I managed to sink 5 1/2 years into WoW before the last trace of fun was killed for me, and that decision had less to do with boredom and more to do with Blizzard skullfucking my class (Holy Priest) and healers in general prior to Cataclysm than anything else.

It's true, but we've come to have bizarre expectations for these games. We'll play them for 5,000 hours, then complain loudly that we're doing the same thing over and over, as if ANYTHING could stay fresh for that long. 5 1/2 years of anything is a remarkable achievement for an entertainment product.

BloatedGuppy:
This is a good point that I overlooked, the embittered ex-MMO player who let a MMO run away with his life for a time, but shouldn't that toxic outlook be restricted to the title in question, and not the genre as a whole? Why would you hate EVE if WoW ruined your life? Wasn't it really YOU that ruined your life? Wasn't that lesson learned? When I played CoH obsessively for two weeks, both destroying my vacation and destroying my enthusiasm for CoH, I didn't say "No more MMOs for me, they are EVIL", I said "Boy was I an idiot, I won't be doing that again!". It does seem slightly unfair to lay gamer's inabilities to control their compulsions at the feet of a genre.

Directing one's ire towards one particular game certainly seems more sensible, but it's quite clear that the issues are not restricted to any single game. As I said, this is a problem the basic design template. So long as the game is reliant on "carrot-on-a-stick" techniques to keep ahold of it's playerbase, in order to keep them continually paying their subscriptions, these issues will persist. If it were just one game to which was doing these issues, the complaints would be directed solely at that game. They aren't, it's part of the fundamental design template for every single known MMO.

The most basic, and fundamental, of these design decisions is the idea that the game does not end. If you can name any MMO which doesn't at least try take advantage of this, I will be surprised. So long as the game doesn't end, those subscriptions just keep coming in. Some MMOs have moved to Free-to-Play models, but those still take advantage of micro-transactions. Both versions have some form of carrot-on-a-stick techniques at play, making players keep going rather than relying on the game's actual merits to be enjoyable. Of course, other non-MMOs use carrot-on-a-stick techniques as well... but the fundamental difference remains, they end. By giving a game some finality, the issues with dependency go away even with the most expansive titles; but when you keep adding new content and especially new incentives (gear upgrades being the most obvious example) to do said content, the issue just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

---

As for the player being at fault as well... the point is that they aren't the only ones who carry the blame, especially since those minor cases are not isolated. The former MMO player does learn from their mistake, but at the same time they see all the signs of the same issue in the people who are still playing. I've used the excuse "I'm nowhere as bad as the worst cases" countless times when I was dependent; and it's just that, making excuses. Now think about what one would feel when they see others doing the exact same thing. As I said, the issues are endemnic; as is the rampant denial and watering down of the true scope of the situation, from both the players and the developpers.

And don't you dare start with the "It's not your problem" argument.

BloatedGuppy:
It's really NOT worse than the internet at large, it's just less well moderated, on account of the fact that the idiots are paying customers instead of just passing through. You can't be a vigilant about weeding them out. There's still a core of decent human beings there to be interacted with. I've met some pretty incredibly cool people over the years in MMOs, mingling with the teeming hordes of yahoos.

You might be correct about the basic problems not being worse than the rest of the 'net; nevertheless, the situation is worse due to the aforementioned lack of moderation. These are the jerks who will use any excuse & defense to justify them ruining other people's day, and in MMOs they have it.

'Cause the media, and more importantly, Yahtzee said they're shit.

Honestly don't get the money arguments either, you could save 8 per month by cutting out 1 thing out of your life, like maybe save on transport costs for 2 days per month by walking somewhere you normally wouldn't, taking food from home instead of buying it while you're out etc. They drain your wallet about as much as any other luxury does.

But what do I know, I clearly don't have a soul anymore because i used to play WoW.

MMO's exploit the juvenile desire to flaunt dressed up characters in an attempt to gain some kind of online "cred" or gain attention from players with inferior equipment.

Also - "Go collect 20 wolf pelts"

No, go fuck yourself.

Hmm, most of them have bad graphics, boring quests, almost no story or narrative at all, is full of dickheads, filled to the brim with grind and have extremely boring gameplay, the combat most of the time is just math, there's no dodging or aiming involved, it's just use your numbers to reduce the enemy's numbers. It also require a ridiculous amount of hours to reach endgame, where people say the game will finally be fun.

BloatedGuppy:

Yureina:
Eventually, you get to the point that what you are doing is essentially the same thing over and over again. When that happens, unless you have a massive amount of friends you like to spend time with in the game, it ends up dying a slow death. Still, I managed to sink 5 1/2 years into WoW before the last trace of fun was killed for me, and that decision had less to do with boredom and more to do with Blizzard skullfucking my class (Holy Priest) and healers in general prior to Cataclysm than anything else.

It's true, but we've come to have bizarre expectations for these games. We'll play them for 5,000 hours, then complain loudly that we're doing the same thing over and over, as if ANYTHING could stay fresh for that long. 5 1/2 years of anything is a remarkable achievement for an entertainment product.

Notice that I didn't say anything about my game experience with WoW as being "a waste of time" or "not worth it." It was great fun while it lasted, and I sunk roughly 16,000 hours into playing it. I simply reached a point where it wasn't fun at all anymore and I decided to stop.

The Abhorrent:
Directing one's ire towards one particular game certainly seems more sensible, but it's quite clear that the issues are not restricted to any single game. As I said, this is a problem the basic design template. So long as the game is reliant on "carrot-on-a-stick" techniques to keep ahold of it's playerbase, in order to keep them continually paying their subscriptions, these issues will persist. If it were just one game to which was doing these issues, the complaints would be directed solely at that game. They aren't, it's part of the fundamental design template for every single known MMO.

The most basic, and fundamental, of these design decisions is the idea that the game does not end. If you can name any MMO which doesn't at least try take advantage of this, I will be surprised. So long as the game doesn't end, those subscriptions just keep coming in. Some MMOs have moved to Free-to-Play models, but those still take advantage of micro-transactions. Both versions have some form of carrot-on-a-stick techniques at play, making players keep going rather than relying on the game's actual merits to be enjoyable. Of course, other non-MMOs use carrot-on-a-stick techniques as well... but the fundamental difference remains, they end. By giving a game some finality, the issues with dependency go away even with the most expansive titles; but when you keep adding new content and especially new incentives (gear upgrades being the most obvious example) to do said content, the issue just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

It's a strange thing, to allow that single player games also use carrots to compel the player onward, and to imply that the problem with the MMO is that there is no discernible point at which the player is forced to stop. We are saying, at that point, that they are giving us too much game. Too much of a good thing. Like saying a buffet is inherently wicked, because you don't know when to stop eating.

I've been playing the genre off and on since Ultima Online, and I really do sincerely believe that they have become less psychologically addictive, and I'm not even 100% convinced they were ever more psychologically addictive than gaming in general, and I'm not 100% convinced that being psychologically addicted to your recreational activity of choice is necessarily Evil with a capital E. Certainly there are people who have run their lives/marriages/jobs into disarray by playing too many MMOs, but we've been hearing horror stories about people derailing their lives with video games since they first came into existence. People are not good about balancing their responsibilities with their pleasures.

The Abhorrent:
As for the player being at fault as well... the point is that they aren't the only ones who carry the blame, especially since those minor cases are not isolated. The former MMO player does learn from their mistake, but at the same time they see all the signs of the same issue in the people who are still playing. I've used the excuse "I'm nowhere as bad as the worst cases" countless times when I was dependent; and it's just that, making excuses. Now think about what one would feel when they see others doing the exact same thing. As I said, the issues are endemnic; as is the rampant denial and watering down of the true scope of the situation, from both the players and the developpers.

And don't you dare start with the "It's not your problem" argument.

Well, you're going to have to allow here that your own dependency/experience is going to color your judgment here, to the same degree that you suspect mine is going to color mine. I have a friend who is a casual gamer. He has tried MMOs, including the most savagely addictive of them all, Everquest. He played them casually for a short period of time, then stopped. If the problem lies in the game design, and not with the gamer, should I not have seen at least SOME evidence that he was enthralled?

MMOs have changed, over the years. You have raid lockouts. You have rest xp. You have games that prompt you "It's been X hours, you should take a break!". The developers acknowledge that people pour too many hours into this hobby sometimes. I just don't know that it's a MMO specific problem. That Korean kid that died from self-neglect during a binge gaming session? That was STARCRAFT. I think we need to address compulsive gaming/neglect of self as a problem independent from the MMO as a genre.

The Abhorrent:
You might be correct about the basic problems not being worse than the rest of the 'net; nevertheless, the situation is worse due to the aforementioned lack of moderation. These are the jerks who will use any excuse & defense to justify them ruining other people's day, and in MMOs they have it.

Here's the thing, though. The degree of forced interaction in MMOs is going down and down and down. Having your play time gated by idiots is becoming less and less of an issue. Griefing was a HUGE hot button issue for me when I first started playing these games. It's barely on my register, now, because it hasn't really been a problem for a good long time.

Anyway, good points. Thanks for the discussion, seriously. I'm bored at work.

"Subscription fees with lacklustre gameplay that requires large time investments before it gets good with nothing compelling to do" just about sums up most MMOs for me.

Do people around here not like MMORPGs? I'm sorry about that.

As for me, I'm not all that fond of them because they're mostly about grinding. Not about "role playing", not about narrative, not about exploring(well, you sometimes get a little of that), but grinding.

10 hours in Earthbound will get you to level 50. Because the game is not about grinding, almost no offline RPG requires it. In most MMORPGs, 10 hours of playing will get you to level 3... or maybe 5 if you're really lucky. That is, MMORPGs are TEN TIMES MORE GRINDY THAN ANY OTHER GENRE.

In a way, Minecraft and Terraria are a little like an MMORPG, they're pretty grindy. But it's fun because you have some many options, you can interact with almost every single object in the games. With MMORPGs, hardly anything can you interact with outside of the incredibly boring monsters. Furthermore, I hate the disconnect between me and my character. My character does not have a personality unless I join a roleplayers guild, and it has no effect on the gameplay how I roleplay, if anything, it just makes me griefer bait, because people who oppose grinding will get in your face and say "YOU'RE NOT YOUR CHARACTER YOU LOSER IDIOT." and try to sabotage your game efforts.

I still play MMORPGs. But gosh, the disappoint me everytime.

On a side note: It ticks me off how EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. WITH A BOOB SLIDER. WILL. NOT. LET. ME. CHOOSE. ANYTHING. BELOW. A. C. CUP. YOU DARN RIGHT I MAD. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-!

Midgeamoo:
Yahtzee said they're shit.

I just felt a degree of love for MMORPGs well up within me.

I love you MMORPGs, don't stop being awesome.

For me, it's very simple.

Here's some gameplay from God Of War III:

Here's some from Dark Souls:

Here's some from Skyrim:

Now, here's some gameplay from WoW:

For me, the gameplay in every MMO I've ever played has been relentlessly dull. As soon as they make an MMO where presentation and gameplay are as fun and exciting as a single player game, I'll sign up. Until then, I'll stick to my single-player games.

LOL. Using Skyrim as an example of 'good' gameplay is laughable though.

I used to play WoW for a few years. I played various other MMOs before that...

But now I stopped. I'm just tired of them. I think the main reason for it is that good gameplay/game mechanics suffer. If you play any MMO offline it will be absolute shit. It relies on the social element for it to be worth playing.

The combination of "skinner box" psychological manipulation and a competitive "I want to be better than them" atmosphere (max DPS in groups, pwning in PVP, etc) makes MMOs in particular exceedingly addictive for many people.

A game like CoD or BF employs some RPG elements like leveling up, but you can be lvl 5 and still pwn anything. The only incentive to keep playing besides enjoyment are to unlock new things, which is a little bit addicting, but it's not like a skinner box where every single thing you kill *might* give you an uber item. That makes it almost like gambling.

So, basically, I'm totally in agreement with @Abhorrent. People that have gone down the rabbit hole know how evil it can be, and therefore hate the genre.

Personally I don't exactly hate it, but I'm not going to be playing any MMOs.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:
For me, the gameplay in every MMO I've ever played has been relentlessly dull. As soon as they make an MMO where presentation and gameplay are as fun and exciting as a single player game, I'll sign up. Until then, I'll stick to my single-player games.

I hear what you're saying, but cherry picking kinetic gameplay videos and using it in an attempt to demonstrate why MMOs are dull is slightly dirty pool. I could post 4 minutes of Duke Nukem Forever, and four minutes of two people playing Chess. Duke Nukem Forever would LOOK a lot more exciting. Chess is, by order of almost comical magnitude, the better game.

LilithSlave:
10 hours in Earthbound will get you to level 50. Because the game is not about grinding, almost no offline RPG requires it. In most MMORPGs, 10 hours of playing will get you to level 3... or maybe 5 if you're really lucky. That is, MMORPGs are TEN TIMES MORE GRINDY THAN ANY OTHER GENRE.

Boy I wish! I actually miss slow leveling. Possibly because I'm a fool and a masochist. However...3-4 years ago, a friend was arguing with me about how slow Druids leveled early on in WoW. I said it would take about 2 hours to get to level 10, he disagreed. So I took a Druid to level 10 in 1 hour and 45 minutes. They've done naught but get faster since then. However, you were quite probably being sarcastic, so I digress.

Is "length of time to level" really a thing? If you're enjoying yourself, why does it matter how long it took to level up? Is it not about the journey, as opposed to the destination? I suppose I could see the argument that "The journey sucks", but I've never really understood WHY it sucks. There's actual game play depth, in many of these titles. At least in a tactical/mathetmatical sense. Story depth is somewhat absent, I will grant you.

LilithSlave:
On a side note: It ticks me off how EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. WITH A BOOB SLIDER. WILL. NOT. LET. ME. CHOOSE. ANYTHING. BELOW. A. C. CUP. YOU DARN RIGHT I MAD. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-!

I'm not even a girl, and it irritates me too. What if I prefer A-Cups, sexist game developers? At least take my preferences into account while you're pandering to me!

Wolfram01:
The combination of "skinner box" psychological manipulation and a competitive "I want to be better than them" atmosphere (max DPS in groups, pwning in PVP, etc) makes MMOs in particular exceedingly addictive for many people.

A game like CoD or BF employs some RPG elements like leveling up, but you can be lvl 5 and still pwn anything. The only incentive to keep playing besides enjoyment are to unlock new things, which is a little bit addicting, but it's not like a skinner box where every single thing you kill *might* give you an uber item. That makes it almost like gambling.

So, basically, I'm totally in agreement with @Abhorrent. People that have gone down the rabbit hole know how evil it can be, and therefore hate the genre.

Personally I don't exactly hate it, but I'm not going to be playing any MMOs.

There hasn't been a true skinner box MMO since EverQuest. The newer ones are really no more fiendish then their single player brethren.

The competitive atmosphere is another thing entirely, but again...do we really want to hold that against a genre? "Provided a competitive atmosphere". The bastards!

BloatedGuppy:

Wolfram01:
The combination of "skinner box" psychological manipulation and a competitive "I want to be better than them" atmosphere (max DPS in groups, pwning in PVP, etc) makes MMOs in particular exceedingly addictive for many people.

A game like CoD or BF employs some RPG elements like leveling up, but you can be lvl 5 and still pwn anything. The only incentive to keep playing besides enjoyment are to unlock new things, which is a little bit addicting, but it's not like a skinner box where every single thing you kill *might* give you an uber item. That makes it almost like gambling.

So, basically, I'm totally in agreement with @Abhorrent. People that have gone down the rabbit hole know how evil it can be, and therefore hate the genre.

Personally I don't exactly hate it, but I'm not going to be playing any MMOs.

There hasn't been a true skinner box MMO since EverQuest. The newer ones are really no more fiendish then their single player brethren.

The competitive atmosphere is another thing entirely, but again...do we really want to hold that against a genre? "Provided a competitive atmosphere". The bastards!

Haha, that's true! But the combination of random loot dropping and competition has a drastic effect compared to having one or the other. For example I might like to play some Borderlands to find loot, but I can do it on my own time, play maybe a couple hours twice a week. But in an MMO, you have that reward thing going on PLUS the fact that if you don't play, you get left behind, and even if you do keep up with levels, you will fall behind in usefulness if you aren't trying to get better loot. I'm pretty sure there was an Escapist article on that. It mentioned that getting left behind (or left out) is a pretty intense psychological thing.

Wolfram01:
Haha, that's true! But the combination of random loot dropping and competition has a drastic effect compared to having one or the other. For example I might like to play some Borderlands to find loot, but I can do it on my own time, play maybe a couple hours twice a week. But in an MMO, you have that reward thing going on PLUS the fact that if you don't play, you get left behind, and even if you do keep up with levels, you will fall behind in usefulness if you aren't trying to get better loot. I'm pretty sure there was an Escapist article on that. It mentioned that getting left behind (or left out) is a pretty intense psychological thing.

I can see that, and there's definitely a psychological element there, but the genre HAS changed. I could point you to a half dozen threads on any given day on the TOR forums about how the game has become "massively single player", and everyone is just "off quietly questing and doing their own thing" and then re-rolling alts at 50. There's nothing to get left behind FROM. Guild Wars 2 allows you to bolster up and down to any given level, and sidekick your friends. The Secret World doesn't even have levels, it just has a skill hub.

The sins of the father, and all that. The genre is much, much more friendly to the solo, casual gamer than it used to be, to the point where the hardcore fans of the old school model are getting surly and restless. The days of the EverQuest widow are pretty much done. People can still ruin their lives by getting obsessed with a MMO, but I humbly contest that those buggers were going to get obsessed with something, sooner or later.

BloatedGuppy:

Wolfram01:
Haha, that's true! But the combination of random loot dropping and competition has a drastic effect compared to having one or the other. For example I might like to play some Borderlands to find loot, but I can do it on my own time, play maybe a couple hours twice a week. But in an MMO, you have that reward thing going on PLUS the fact that if you don't play, you get left behind, and even if you do keep up with levels, you will fall behind in usefulness if you aren't trying to get better loot. I'm pretty sure there was an Escapist article on that. It mentioned that getting left behind (or left out) is a pretty intense psychological thing.

I can see that, and there's definitely a psychological element there, but the genre HAS changed. I could point you to a half dozen threads on any given day on the TOR forums about how the game has become "massively single player", and everyone is just "off quietly questing and doing their own thing" and then re-rolling alts at 50. There's nothing to get left behind FROM. Guild Wars 2 allows you to bolster up and down to any given level, and sidekick your friends. The Secret World doesn't even have levels, it just has a skill hub.

The sins of the father, and all that. The genre is much, much more friendly to the solo, casual gamer than it used to be, to the point where the hardcore fans of the old school model are getting surly and restless. The days of the EverQuest widow are pretty much done. People can still ruin their lives by getting obsessed with a MMO, but I humbly contest that those buggers were going to get obsessed with something, sooner or later.

Then I guess we can put it down to "had a bad experience" and "not willing to give it another shot".

Kind of like my girlfriend and weed... lol.

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