Homosexuality in ME3

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Kahunaburger:

Therumancer:
I know people don't like the use of the term Muslim to begin with.

That's... odd. Never run into anyone who identifies as following a religion and prefers others not to identify them as following that religion, myself.

Therumancer:

Otherwise, the overall point here isn't that specifically, as much as that when you start saying one minority group is entitled to representation, you wind up saying that all of them are equally entitled. Then you can't do anything without making sure all of your politically correct bases are covered.

It's less about representation, and more about good writing in their setting. If they're writing a story in an advanced future where humanity has moved beyond homophobia, it would be strange if there weren't openly gay people somewhere, considering that gay people represent about 2%-10% of the population. If they're leaving major aspects of Shep's sexuality open to player decision (like the whole "finding aliens that don't resemble humans sexually attractive" thing), it's completely okay if they decide that which gender(s) of human Shep goes for is also open to player decision.

I personally think that sex, in general, plays a larger role than it should in ME, but if they're going to have Shep getting it on with his/her crew, there's no particular reason to limit it to heterosexuality.

Therumancer:
Honestly I'm kind of hoping they do a sequel to Jade Empire simply so I can start complaining that there is discrimination due to the lack of playable white male characters in the game.... sure it doesn't fit the setting, but it could be written in, and I'm entitled. Not seriously of course but it would be fun for some lulz as a counterpoint to all this entitlement garbage we see elsewhere. Every group thinks there is a reason they should be there and are more legitimately entitled to a place than others, which means it's endless and why pandering has to be avoided at all costs. Let the writers do what they are going to do and create the characers they want for their stories.

You'd expect a setting like Jade Empire to be populated primarily by not-Asians, just like you'd expect a setting like Ferelden to be populated primarily by not-Europeans and a setting like the Mass Effect universe to be populated by people of every description. Mass Effect has generally been good at this, although there's still room for improvement.

Well for starters your making some major assumptions here. See to your left wing point of view you think homosexuality is fine and acceptance is the "proper" path. Like it or not even in nations like the US roughly 50% of the people disagree with you VERY strongly. Globally the numbers are probably weighted against you heavily, I seem to remember Uganda just getting a bill proposed making homosexuality of any sort a death penelty offense (whether it will succeed or not remains to be seen) and reading some surrounding stuff about how a lot of western countries and business interests refuse to get involved, and indeed a lot of people are watching to see if it passes with an eye to potential emulation.

I'm not going to get into my opinion (where even if I'm anti-gay men that's excessive to the point of insanity) the point is simply here that your overlooking that your vision of an ideal future is NOT everyone's, nor can you claim to even have any kind of true majority support on issues like that.

Outside of that point understand that at the best homosexuals are REALLY a tiny group of people even if they represent themselves as being a large group. There are simply not enough of them for there to be some on any ship or whatever. Indeed having a couple would represent an exception, rather than a rule by the numbers. It's about inserting them, not any nod towards realism.

This of course doesn't even get into the issue of whether there would be homosexuals that far in the future with that level of medical technology. Not because of any attempt at direct genocide, but because we know how it works, and it IS a medical condition. There is no way to really deny it at this point, sexual arousal is caused by chemical reactions based on people's reception of chemical signals and other stimula. This is not junk science, pseudo-science, or anything else, we don't know ALL the details of how the system works, but we do know how it functions and how you can take any person, or animal, and remove their sex drive by removing parts of their sexual system (spaying, neutering, castration). It's not magical, it's all about biology.

Before you get some image of malevolent guys in vans running around abducting gays and stuffing them in nano-vats to "correct them" or whatever, that's not likely the case in a game like Mass Effect. Rather we've probably gotten to the point where they are able to ensure babies are born perfectly healthy and their systems work as intended, and as such any problem with their chemical receptors causing them to wind up being aroused by their own gender, or something abnormal, are simply corrected to the default, healthy sexual system. Likewise conditions that change the chemical system as a side effect (it can be changed like other parts of the biology, making homosexuality and other deviations a symptom that can derive from a lot of sources) are probably correctible simply by using routine regnerative drugs. You plop on some of that miracle medical gel or whatever and it restores the body to a default human condition (being designed for everyone, which is why you don't need it tailored to a specific individual) so if you say had something that screwed with how your chemical receptors with functioning that would stick it back to normal in the course of rebuilding and resetting the body to repair damage and abnormal conditions.

Now before you, or others, start yelling and screaming, I am NOT saying this is in the Canon any more than I did with Star Wars. I am just saying it's a defensible position, and could explain a lack of homosexuals in these universes without any kind of bigotry or modern politics being involved. Saying that the future would turn out with gays popping up everywhere due to tolerance is not a common sense or defensible position, as the one I'm making is just as defensible, and perhaps more so.

Of course in making this case it's largely academic for how things could be defined. We know homosexuals exist because of Femshep's possible antics, and the simple fact that there is no way around a certain bridge bunny being bi-sexual at the very least.

That said the point is to drop the entire schtick with acting like the defense of homosexuality in the future is some kind of absolute, that everyone agrees with, and where we will wind up.

That said I doubt there would be any more homosexuals in proportion to the population and that means that numerically you aren't guaranteed to see them inserted into every peer group, on every ship, or other assorted things. Indeed it could be argued that while there are no gay men (except perhaps a repressed Shepard) on the Normandy there is at least ONE bisexual among a fairly small crew on the second ship, and that right there amounts to representation.

The entire arguement is mostly a political one and gay men saying "well if other romantic options are presented we're ENTITLED to having our own option" which is an arguement that could be made about anything that gets a small group of people off. That's all there is to it, and really I think writing takes priority. If that winds up happening because it fits the characters they want to create, so be it, if it doesn't, nobody should be screaming bloody murder. Bioware proved that if it fits they don't shy away from such things (Dragon Age) but that doesn't mean they are obligated to put it into every bloody game... and that's the bottom line.

Therumancer:

See to your left wing point of view you think homosexuality is fine and acceptance is the "proper" path. Like it or not even in nations like the US roughly 50% of the people disagree with you VERY strongly. Globally the numbers are probably weighted against you heavily, I seem to remember Uganda just getting a bill proposed making homosexuality of any sort a death penelty offense (whether it will succeed or not remains to be seen) and reading some surrounding stuff about how a lot of western countries and business interests refuse to get involved, and indeed a lot of people are watching to see if it passes with an eye to potential emulation.

But in the aggregate, homophobia is slowly dying out, like other artifacts of pre-modern society. A cosmopolitan world is one in where you get used to people living their lives differently from the way you do.

But this is a tangent - based on how Bioware wrote it, the Mass Effect future doesn't appear to be a very homophobic one, so there's no particular reason for a gay Shep to be closeted or w/e.

Therumancer:
Outside of that point understand that at the best homosexuals are REALLY a tiny group of people even if they represent themselves as being a large group. There are simply not enough of them for there to be some on any ship or whatever. Indeed having a couple would represent an exception, rather than a rule by the numbers. It's about inserting them, not any nod towards realism.

>implying that 2%-10% of the human race is unlikely to be represented somewhere in a cast of hundreds.

Therumancer:
Rather we've probably gotten to the point where they are able to ensure babies are born perfectly healthy and their systems work as intended

image

Also, it's extremely unlikely that the non-homophobic Mass Effect future would view being gay as a "disease" that has to be corrected from birth.

Therumancer:

The entire arguement is mostly a political one and gay men saying "well if other romantic options are presented we're ENTITLED to having our own option" which is an arguement that could be made about anything that gets a small group of people off.

I feel like your strong feelings on the issue are clearly clouding your judgment. It's more that gay people are intended to exist in the mass effect universe, and Bioware hasn't put gay dudes in the previous games because they were worried about alienating Fox News and/or CoD kiddies. This should not be a controversial decision.

Kahunaburger:

Therumancer:

See to your left wing point of view you think homosexuality is fine and acceptance is the "proper" path. Like it or not even in nations like the US roughly 50% of the people disagree with you VERY strongly. Globally the numbers are probably weighted against you heavily, I seem to remember Uganda just getting a bill proposed making homosexuality of any sort a death penelty offense (whether it will succeed or not remains to be seen) and reading some surrounding stuff about how a lot of western countries and business interests refuse to get involved, and indeed a lot of people are watching to see if it passes with an eye to potential emulation.

But in the aggregate, homophobia is slowly dying out, like other artifacts of pre-modern society. A cosmopolitan world is one in where you get used to people living their lives differently from the way you do.

But this is a tangent - based on how Bioware wrote it, the Mass Effect future doesn't appear to be a very homophobic one, so there's no particular reason for a gay Shep to be closeted or w/e.

Therumancer:
Outside of that point understand that at the best homosexuals are REALLY a tiny group of people even if they represent themselves as being a large group. There are simply not enough of them for there to be some on any ship or whatever. Indeed having a couple would represent an exception, rather than a rule by the numbers. It's about inserting them, not any nod towards realism.

>implying that 2%-10% of the human race is unlikely to be represented somewhere in a cast of hundreds.

Therumancer:
Rather we've probably gotten to the point where they are able to ensure babies are born perfectly healthy and their systems work as intended

image

Also, it's extremely unlikely that the non-homophobic Mass Effect future would view being gay as a "disease" that has to be corrected from birth.

Therumancer:

The entire arguement is mostly a political one and gay men saying "well if other romantic options are presented we're ENTITLED to having our own option" which is an arguement that could be made about anything that gets a small group of people off.

I feel like your strong feelings on the issue are clearly clouding your judgment. It's more that gay people are intended to exist in the mass effect universe, and Bioware hasn't put gay dudes in the previous games because they were worried about alienating Fox News and/or CoD kiddies. This should not be a controversial decision.

Okay, well for starters "homophobia" is simply a political rallying tool to try and dismiss the other side, and has never really existed. It's a way of trying to avoid serious discussion on the subject, and things like that are why society remains so divided on the issue as the render any kind of serious dialogue or resolution impossible.

What's more you need to understand your own stance is not inherantly correct, nor has it really "won" anything and is trying to deal with a few hold outs, no matter what the media tells you. Roughly 50% of the population in the US alone disagrees with you on this, and it being a "proper" path or some kind of "growing up" for humanity. That's simply your own rhetoric and what you WANT to happen, not what actually happens to be true.

For all you know in Mass Effect a massive victory from a version of the other side elimitated gay men after a bloody purge and brutal genetic manipulation, and once a year all humans get together to burn gays in effigy, exchange gifts, and hold giant picnics. I mean just because you like one paticular outcome that is in dispute does not mean that in the far future the other side didn't win. On the other hand lesbianism is legal, but only if your hawt and still kind of like men. :)

Of course at the same time, we don't know that you aren't right and that Mass Effect embraces homosexuality.

It hasn't been covered EITHER WAY because it's not really important to the overall theme of the game.

This issue exists entirely because there are heterosexual and lesbian relationships in the game, and yet none for gay men. It comes down to entitlement and gay men and their political supporters saying that if your going to have sexual/romantic content you HAVE to have it for all sexual deviations... or at least just theirs, because they are special and deserve special treatment. If you don't create special content for them, whether it fits with your plans or not, then you are a bigot.

Now, since you apparently weren't paying attention, you entirely misunderstand the point I made about curing homosexuality. There would be no need to specifically target it, in making people healthy... as the body is intended to function, the reproductive systems would respond chemically to the other gender to propagate the species. There would be no homosexuality as that is by definition a malfunction of the system causing people to react to the wrong signals and become attracted/aroused. It's not really a debatable point, we understand how that works. Basically homosexuality would be elimited as a byproduct of perfect physical health without there having to be any direct effort made to elimitate gays. It's not a point you might like but it happens to be true, and is a case that applies to any future society with extreme levels of medical technology, especially that which can be instantly applied to any person and rebuilds them to norm (ie healing lots of damage, illness, etc.. all at once like Medgel, Bacta, or similar things).

However you also apparently missed the point where I explained that we know this doesn't happen in Mass Effect because we know of *one* canonical Bi-sexual, in the form of everyone's favorite Bridge Bunny/Counslar. Of course not a lot has been said about how society views that because again it's a non factor. We also don't know if gay men are considered to be the same as lesbians in this society, because it hasn't come up. As someone who tosses around the word "homophobic" I imagine you haven't heard enough from the other side to realize that thre are a lot of people who believe gays and lesbians are differant issues (just as men and women are differant) and need to be dealt with seperatly. Such a point of view might have won out at this point like any other.

In the end though my basic point behind everything is that as much as I don't like gay men, I'm not so violently offended that I avoid everything with them in it. I am after all a huge fan of "origins". I do not however feel that there is any entitlement here, if Bioware happens to decide on their own without external pressure to have a gay man present, then they should so so as part of the design. On the other hand if they had no intention of such things they should not insert such characters to meet liberal demand that "everybody" be represented, once you open that door you can't shut it.

See, Mass Effect isn't about homosexuals or modern politics, as such it's not an issue that even gets trivial mention, and it should stay that way. If a gay character shows up, so be it, if not, it doesn't matter at all.

Really, deciding to be putzes about things like this, and demanding inclusion in everything as an entitlement, probably does more to make me anti-gay than anything else going on right now. Insisting on entitlements is not the same as equal oppertunities, what's more implying there is bigotry involve because there isn't a gay guy in every Bioware game after there were a few in other games is ridiculous.

Leave it to the writers to work out, and I advice remaining silent about it. See, if nobody had said anything and a gay character showed up in ME3 nobody would have cared and just let it go like with "origins". However now that the political card has been played and people have been demanding entitlements after Bioware said flat out there wasn't supposed to be any in their vision (just as they said no homosexuals in Star Wars), it means anything of this sort they put into their games will be viewed with scorn and suspician of pandering.

To be honest in the long run gay men probably would have been smarter to just remain quiet and let things happen gradually, over time, rather than seeing one and going "OMG, finally a gay character, we must insist this be in every game from now on".

Buretsu:

Asuka Soryu:

cairocat:

Well, the same reason they care about how many programmed images another programmed image can shoot before reloading. Or, say, how many different places a programmed image travels through before it defeats another programmed image.

You putting it in those terms makes me wonder why you are on a gaming site.

Hm, so you're saying that deciding what your character does romanticaly is the same as wanting to win a game fast?

Everybody knows the way to beat the Reapers is to show them MaleShepxGarrus Slash, and have them run away in horror.

I found the Fem Shep breast feeding Krogan babies while Wrex cuddles her, a bit more disturbing, yet cute at the same time.

Therumancer:

Okay, well for starters "homophobia" sexism is simply a political rallying tool to try and dismiss the other side, and has never really existed. It's a way of trying to avoid serious discussion on the subject, and things like that are why society remains so divided on the issue as the render any kind of serious dialogue or resolution impossible.

What's more you need to understand your own stance is not inherantly correct, nor has it really "won" anything and is trying to deal with a few hold outs, no matter what the media tells you. Roughly 50% of the population in the US alone disagrees with you on this, and it being a "proper" path or some kind of "growing up" for humanity. That's simply your own rhetoric and what you WANT to happen, not what actually happens to be true.

See the problem with your argument?

Therumancer:
It comes down to entitlement and gay men and their political supporters saying that if your going to have sexual/romantic content you HAVE to have it for all sexual deviations... or at least just theirs, because they are special and deserve special treatment. If you don't create special content for them, whether it fits with your plans or not, then you are a bigot.

Actually, I was under the impression it came down to Bioware putting whatever they feel like putting in their games. I honestly see much more emotional and shrill outcries against gay dudes in Mass Effect than I ever saw in favor of it.

Therumancer:

Now, since you apparently weren't paying attention, you entirely misunderstand the point I made about curing homosexuality. There would be no need to specifically target it, in making people healthy... as the body is intended to function, the reproductive systems would respond chemically to the other gender to propagate the species. There would be no homosexuality as that is by definition a malfunction of the system causing people to react to the wrong signals and become attracted/aroused. It's not really a debatable point, we understand how that works. Basically homosexuality would be elimited as a byproduct of perfect physical health without there having to be any direct effort made to elimitate gays. It's not a point you might like but it happens to be true, and is a case that applies to any future society with extreme levels of medical technology, especially that which can be instantly applied to any person and rebuilds them to norm (ie healing lots of damage, illness, etc.. all at once like Medgel, Bacta, or similar things).

[citation needed]

Therumancer:

Really, deciding to be putzes about things like this, and demanding inclusion in everything as an entitlement, probably does more to make me anti-gay racist than anything else going on right now. Insisting on entitlements is not the same as equal oppertunities,[sic]

See the problem with this argument?

Don Savik:
With the exception of possibly Liara, I don't think Bioware/EA will take that chance. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, I just don't think they will.

This issue exists because they already did (covered in the most detail 3 paragraphs below this after Liara commentary)

See Liara was originally pointed out to be alien enough where it wasn't really "lesbian". The closest non-ME referance I could give would probably be the points being made about Zhaan in "Farscape", she wasn't bi-sexual, she was a plant and didn't conform to the animal standards of gender. It was a similar thing.

Asari have an female reproductive system to bear children, but overall don't even need to have sex involving physical contact (though they can) to get pregnant. I personally have kind of wondered about Asari gene rape, and an Asari finding a parent they wanted to copy that was unwilling and then stealing their code without actually physically touching them since that seems to be possible, but that never came up (and is a side point). Asari tend to wander around looking for mates that have traits them want to absorb through their offspring since the traits of the other participant go to the offspring to some extent, which came up when Liara mentioned she was looked down on for having two parents who were both Asari.

Where Liara is arguably not a lesbian, bi-sexual, or anything a human analogy exists for, KELLY, the bridge bunny/counslar from "Mass Effect 2" is bi-sexual. She's kind of the "hidden" love interest of the game. If your nice to her, flirt (as either gender), and do the dialogue paths she offers to feed your fish and gets access to your quarters. Later if you score a "perfect" rescue, having left immediatly after the crew abduction to save them (by doing all crew missions, but getting Legion last and missing a lot of the chances to use him) you will free her from being dissolved with the rest of the crew, losing absolutly noone. After that when you return to your ship you can invite her up to your quarters, get her to change into one of those kinky black leatheresque outfits, dance for you, and lay on the bed with you. There is NOT an actual sex scene that I was able to find, but the relationship is pretty obvious... and can happen with either gender (and yes I'm perv
enough to have tested this).

Surprisingly a lot of people in these discussions are oblivious to Kelly, and seem to think this is all about Liara, it's not. This debate started in earnest largely because of Kelly a while back, and never really had much of a prescence (even if entitled feeling gay men were making noise for the sake of making noise, the full liberal brigade had not gotten involved) when it was just Liara as that affair and getting in the consort in bed were defended as being non-lesbian and more along the lines of Xenophillia despite apperances. Kelly on the other hand is 100% human, and female.

Oh and for the record, the Garrus thing was apparently due to some initial complaints by women. See, Liara looks like a girl and can be defended as being directed at guys, there is no way around that all girl options aside (which can be argued as directed at pervy guys). The Garrus thing was pretty much because of some ladies who read science fiction mentioning that they wanted their own exotic alien lover... to sort of be the female captain kirk.

I kind of saw it happening back when I noticed that trend which panned out, because shortly after Bioware started doing requests, we had the "us too, or your bigots" thing from gay men.

Sort of makes me wish I had sent a complete list of my pervy BDSM fantasies about Kelly and Liara to Bioware. I mean heck, I'm a perverted sexual deviant too, why shouldn't I be catered to? ... well I mean other than the awkwardness explaining the requsition to have extra soundproofing added to my quarters, and urgent deliveries from a sex shop to my ship in the middle of a combat zone. >:)

Volf:
what are you talking about?

The way you manage to have a different "problem" with the issue at any given time. The latest shift is from "I don't need it in an action game" to "they could have devoted their resources elsewhere," and it's probably not the last time we see you change what your problem is. Certainly hasn't been the first, in this thread alone.

How about an option to turn off the option to not accidently select the option to "be gay"? We've been forced to accept the gay option, and that's fine, but how about the option to remove the option so I don't have to play the game with a constant fear that I might end up with the gay love scene?

How about we dont give a fuck cause its not really that important?
I mean, the option is nice, Im a gay male and I appreciate it. But whats the big deal for straight dudes if its there?

Guilherme Zoldan:
How about we dont give a fuck cause its not really that important?
I mean, the option is nice, Im a gay male and I appreciate it. But whats the big deal for straight dudes if its there?

Heh. Read the post above yours.

That should give you some idea.

Zhukov:

Guilherme Zoldan:
How about we dont give a fuck cause its not really that important?
I mean, the option is nice, Im a gay male and I appreciate it. But whats the big deal for straight dudes if its there?

Heh. Read the post above yours.

That should give you some idea.

Okay now is there a legitimate reason besides being afraid of catching "teh gay"? im farily sure youd have to be really distracted to accidentaly get into a gay relationship.

Cronq:
How about an option to turn off the option to not accidently select the option to "be gay"? We've been forced to accept the gay option, and that's fine, but how about the option to remove the option so I don't have to play the game with a constant fear that I might end up with the gay love scene?

That sounds like a good idea as long as there's also an option to turn off all that straight nonsense. I'd like my lesbian femShep to actually be able to talk to her male crew members without being strong-armed into a relationship.

Guilherme Zoldan:
Okay now is there a legitimate reason besides being afraid of catchiong teh gay?

Nah, that's about the sum of it.

No matter how they get prettied up, most of the complaints against it always come down to, "I don't want gayness in my game."

The only other reason I've seen is that some people are scared that other characters (Garrus being the most common example) will suddenly become gay in order to accommodate Shepard's newfound options.

Zhukov:

Guilherme Zoldan:
Okay now is there a legitimate reason besides being afraid of catchiong teh gay?

Nah, that's about the sum of it.

No matter how they get prettied up, most of the complaints against it always come down to, "I don't want gayness in my game."

The only other reason I've seen is that some people are scared that other characters (Garrus being the most common example) will suddenly become gay in order to accommodate Shepard's newfound options.

Well of course they would turn gay for Shepard. Who wouldnt? :p

Cronq:
How about an option to turn off the option to not accidently select the option to "be gay"? We've been forced to accept the gay option, and that's fine, but how about the option to remove the option so I don't have to play the game with a constant fear that I might end up with the gay love scene?

I'm pretty sure it'll be fairly obvious when you're about to bone a dude as another dude. You can spot Mass Effect "romance" dialogue from a mile away. It's like a bad porn mixed with... er...

...

Nah, it's just like a bad porn.

Out of all the ME3 rage floating around right now, this is the most hilarious.

It's a role-playing game. You're creating a character. That means you can decide whether you want him to be gay or not. If you don't want him to be gay....don't flirt with the NPC's of the same gender as you.

.....that's it. That's all you gotta do. You're saved from the gayness.

Seriously, why is this an issue, other than to give us yet another Bioware controversy, except this one makes gamers look like illogical bigoted bastards?

Kahunaburger:

Therumancer:

Okay, well for starters "homophobia" sexism is simply a political rallying tool to try and dismiss the other side, and has never really existed. It's a way of trying to avoid serious discussion on the subject, and things like that are why society remains so divided on the issue as the render any kind of serious dialogue or resolution impossible.

What's more you need to understand your own stance is not inherantly correct, nor has it really "won" anything and is trying to deal with a few hold outs, no matter what the media tells you. Roughly 50% of the population in the US alone disagrees with you on this, and it being a "proper" path or some kind of "growing up" for humanity. That's simply your own rhetoric and what you WANT to happen, not what actually happens to be true.

See the problem with your argument?

Therumancer:
It comes down to entitlement and gay men and their political supporters saying that if your going to have sexual/romantic content you HAVE to have it for all sexual deviations... or at least just theirs, because they are special and deserve special treatment. If you don't create special content for them, whether it fits with your plans or not, then you are a bigot.

Actually, I was under the impression it came down to Bioware putting whatever they feel like putting in their games. I honestly see much more emotional and shrill outcries against gay dudes in Mass Effect than I ever saw in favor of it.

Therumancer:

Now, since you apparently weren't paying attention, you entirely misunderstand the point I made about curing homosexuality. There would be no need to specifically target it, in making people healthy... as the body is intended to function, the reproductive systems would respond chemically to the other gender to propagate the species. There would be no homosexuality as that is by definition a malfunction of the system causing people to react to the wrong signals and become attracted/aroused. It's not really a debatable point, we understand how that works. Basically homosexuality would be elimited as a byproduct of perfect physical health without there having to be any direct effort made to elimitate gays. It's not a point you might like but it happens to be true, and is a case that applies to any future society with extreme levels of medical technology, especially that which can be instantly applied to any person and rebuilds them to norm (ie healing lots of damage, illness, etc.. all at once like Medgel, Bacta, or similar things).

[citation needed]

Therumancer:

Really, deciding to be putzes about things like this, and demanding inclusion in everything as an entitlement, probably does more to make me anti-gay racist than anything else going on right now. Insisting on entitlements is not the same as equal oppertunities,[sic]

See the problem with this argument?

For starters citations are not needed for common knowlege. All you have to do is look up say castration, and why it works, and your set... and I have referanced how I know such things. I understand it's liberal chic to try and sound cool that way when lacking anything else to say, but really you'd do better to just not respond.

But then again I imagine your not interested in a serious conversation, crossing a few things out and making accusations about racism or sexism as if they are the same thing for lack of a better counterpoint, kind of makes that clear. Gay rights, sexism, and racism are all their own issues with their own points of debate.

However to be brutally honest I'm not really on the left side of the political spectrum. To be brutally honest with you I think one of the big reasons for problems within our country is in trying to apply the same set of rules and standards to everyone, and follow a 200 year old set of guidelines about rights, totally out of context to both changes in society, AND how the people wrote them intended them to be applied given the examples they have left behind of how they practiced such things in the streets.

I do not advocat resetting the country 200 years, removing women's sufferage, re-instituting slavery as it used to be practiced, or anything of the sort. I do however think we definatly need to update a lot of the laws in light of recent issues. Things like "freedom of religion" for example were intended to apply to Christianity and arguably Freemasonry, the idea of that being extended to religions in direct opposition to our society or contemporary standards was not part of it. Things like Islam were not widespread enough or known enough in this part of the world to be a factor, and the US being at war with a theocratic culture was a laughable thought. Likewise people considering witchcraft and satanism (which can be considered seperatly things) a protected religion would have been a bad joke, understand that for a decent amount of time our own leadership persecuted witches and similar thoughts. Which puts it into context that they did not intend that protection to actually extent to any spiritual or religious belief being tolerated, it was simply written broadly, with the expectation that exceptions would be written in as needed... again going back to the idea that the whole thing owuld need major revision every 19 years or so.

The point here being that I do not nessicarly agree with the principles that define what you would consider racist, sexist, or bigoted behavior. As I've said before I think men and women are differant and you can't fairly apply the same standards and expectations to both. Situations where you say have physical job requirements, and the issue as to whether they should be lowered so women can more easily meet the requirements (as opposed to simply allowing a rare woman who can meet pre-existing requirements), and various biological needs (periods, childbirth) show that there ARE key differances and trying to pretend they don't exist or say "equal except for these exceptions which give women special treatment due to their inherant condition" is pure folly and causes more problems than it solves.

I also feel that profiling, which can include race, is a perfectly legitimate tool, after long experience working as casino security.

So understand, all of your jibes aside, I am probably a racist, sexist, and bigot by liberal standards. In an absolute sense I'm not, or not to the point of saying we should resort to total barbarism, but I do believe that the current standards need to change.

It's sort of like a case mentioned in an Escapist article with someone using the 5th Amendment (protection against self incrimination) to avoid prosecution for seized files on their computer because the police can't decrypt them even if it was an approved seizure. Sorry, but stuff like that was never intended when that law was written, and if you pay attention to how brutal our founding fathers were with Whigs and spies, that should be
pretty obvious. I believe that laws involving civil liberties are in a similar case, allowing too many technicalities which causes our way of doing things to oftentimes lack the most basic common sense.

So needless to say, while I'm not going to go into it, I don't agree with you on gay rights, and doubtlessly not about most of the facts involving them. But then again I'd also imagine you've never actually dealt with child predators after kids in a video arcade, received any kind of Code Adam (or equivilent) training, or researched organizations like NAMBLA other than to accept reassurances that "oh they are no big deal" if that.

Too serious a response given what you posted, but I figured I might as well throw it out there.

But yeah, I'm one of those guys who think we're way overdo for a new constitutional convention... go figure.

Cronq:
How about an option to turn off the option to not accidently select the option to "be gay"? We've been forced to accept the gay option, and that's fine, but how about the option to remove the option so I don't have to play the game with a constant fear that I might end up with the gay love scene?

....? really?

at worst..at absolute worst it would prbably be

"hey shepard I like you!"
"Im not gay"
"oh....ok" *walks away*

and if you seriously cant handle that.. well

harden up

Therumancer:

Okay, well for starters "homophobia" is simply a political rallying tool to try and dismiss the other side, and has never really existed.

Homophobia has never really existed? Hang on, someone is on the phone for you. It's the millions of executed homosexuals that killed by groups with a specific purpose to harm and kill homosexuals.

This is a total rehashing of the Klu Klux Clan in the fifties who were trying to tell everyone that there is no such thing as "racism"! That's just a made up word to trick people and to distract people from the real issues!

Therumancer:
It's a way of trying to avoid serious discussion on the subject, and things like that are why society remains so divided on the issue as the render any kind of serious dialogue or resolution impossible.

The reason why society remains so "divided" on the issue is because of religion. The overwhelming majority of western nations have equal rights for homosexuals. Countries with less religion have higher chances of equality than those with more religion.

Therumancer:
Roughly 50% of the population in the US alone disagrees with you on this

You keep saying this like it means something. More than 50% of Germans in 1943 thought the Nazis were doing a great job. Is that a logically sound argument for Nazism?

Even if we look solely at the USA, I'm willing to bet that in 1810 most Americans had no problem with slavery either.

Therumancer:
This issue exists entirely because there are heterosexual and lesbian relationships in the game, and yet none for gay men. It comes down to entitlement and gay men and their political supporters saying that if your going to have sexual/romantic content you HAVE to have it for all sexual deviations

That is a bastardisation of their argument. Their actual argument was more along the lines of:

"Hey, my femshep can get with an alien who, by all human cultural standards, is "female". Why don't we just expand the possibilities to all sexes? That would ensure for higher standards of roleplaying".

Now Bioware could have responded "No. Femshep isn't a lesbian and Liara is not female. We have nothing against homosexuality, but in our universe, this particular character (Shepard) is not homosexual. That would have been perfectly valid.

But it would be a little disingenuous. Same sex relationships were actually coded into Mass Effect. I'm willing to bet they withdrew them because they were scared of Fox News running a huge smear campaign and ruining the prospect of a trilogy.

That's just a guess though.

Therumancer:

For starters citations are not needed for common knowlege.

You need to learn the difference between your un-evidenced opinions about things and "common knowledge." One is based on reality, and one is based on something you made up that you think sounds somewhat scientific.

Therumancer:

But then again I imagine your not interested in a serious conversation, crossing a few things out and making accusations about racism or sexism as if they are the same thing for lack of a better counterpoint, kind of makes that clear. Gay rights, sexism, and racism are all their own issues with their own points of debate.

Actually, they're all people telling me I should look down on my fellow human beings for no apparent reason. It's the whole "our tribe good their tribe bad" mentality, and it has no place in the 21st century.

Therumancer:

I do however think we definatly need to update a lot of the laws in light of recent issues. Things like "freedom of religion" for example were intended to apply to Christianity and arguably Freemasonry, the idea of that being extended to religions in direct opposition to our society or contemporary standards was not part of it. Things like Islam were not widespread enough or known enough in this part of the world to be a factor, and the US being at war with a theocratic culture was a laughable thought. Likewise people considering witchcraft and satanism (which can be considered seperatly things) a protected religion would have been a bad joke, understand that for a decent amount of time our own leadership persecuted witches and similar thoughts. Which puts it into context that they did not intend that protection to actually extent to any spiritual or religious belief being tolerated, it was simply written broadly, with the expectation that exceptions would be written in as needed... again going back to the idea that the whole thing owuld need major revision every 19 years or so.

Personally, I like living in a civilized society where people are not subject to having where they pray/what they say/where they put their dick/tongue micromanaged by an overbearing government, and I'm pretty sure most Americans agree with me on this.

Therumancer:

It's sort of like a case mentioned in an Escapist article with someone using the 5th Amendment (protection against self incrimination) to avoid prosecution for seized files on their computer because the police can't decrypt them even if it was an approved seizure. Sorry, but stuff like that was never intended when that law was written, and if you pay attention to how brutal our founding fathers were with Whigs and spies, that should be
pretty obvious. I believe that laws involving civil liberties are in a similar case, allowing too many technicalities which causes our way of doing things to oftentimes lack the most basic common sense.

Yeah, but to be honest America was kind of a shithole by modern standards at the time of its founding and I'm glad we've moved on from that. The rights that the constitution guarantees (even if the framers did not intend those rights to be guaranteed) are the reason that, for instance, you can access forums like this one from an American computer.

Therumancer:

Too serious a response

Therumancer, I don't think you ever have to worry about writing too serious of a response to anything.

Therumancer:

But yeah, I'm one of those guys who think we're way overdo for a new constitutional convention... go figure.

Or you could just move to Iran - seems like your ideal society.

Ok, can I just say I love you two (therumancer and kahunaburger) arguing. Please do some more!

On a more serious note, just take it back one step ok?

Roughly 7% of the population is gay (genetically, not by influence of video games such as dragon age - gay elf sex ftw!).

There are roughly 7 billion people in the world in 2012.
So, roughly one billion people in the world are gay.

Now, Therumancer, you say this is a small group that could, nay should, be ignored....but during the holocaust, 6 million Jews died......following your reasoning, we should not remember them since they were such a small group.Is that what you believe?

And, taking into account that the population of the human race would have increased exponentially from now until ME times, perhaps 3, or even 4 billion people would be gay. Enough to fill about 100 planet colonies.

So if you care about the human colonies that are attacked in Mass Effect 2.....why do you hate gay people?

And while I do agree with you and you are, in my eyes, a total legend Kahunaburger, I am not really comfortable with the Iran reference.

Can this just end now? Its gone to far, its too late to change the Bioware devs minds anyway, just accept it mate. The homophobes and crazy geneticists have lost this round.

Sambot, out

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