Games where you are the bad guy (but don't know it)

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Valkyria chronicles 2. First off, they send children to fight for the nation (when fully grown heroes are just sitting around). Second, you are fighting for an inexperienced ruler who lied about her heritage to get to a position of power. Third, the rebellion fighting against you have not only an experienced leader, but a way to negotiate with the so called "evil empire." that's been waring with you since the first game. I felt horrible when my ragtag bunch of teenagers viciously murdered a woman who constantly prayed to her god every day. Sorry lady, I guess when it comes down to "god vs. rambunctious friendship" he just flat out abandons you. Christ, they tell the children they can kill each other in training if you hit them in the right spot! What kind of Facked up nation is this!

hhhmmm someones already mentions Nier...
and Dark Souls... uuummmm
WAIT
Chibi-robo...kinda.. in the game the robot you play as is causing the energy companies and families to go bankrupt becuase of how much energy is needed to keep the chibi's powered. The family you work for in particular is in serious debt as it is. PLUS you show that the husband has been spenind important tax money on his toy collection thus making the wife angry and locking herself in the room and threatening divorce. AND you break a lego Texan Dinasours teeth out, kill her love interest flower buy making it repopulate and dance to death. then you bring back the scourge of the seven seas and cuase an army platoon to go awol to give the ship some crewmates. The final kicker is that you beat up a the family dog... not really but kinda.

Gustof26:
Guild wars, like all of them.

Guild Wars Prop. When you get to the country Of Kryta you find that the local population follows a group of deities known as the Unseen Ones. Every year a group of people with magical powers are dragged out into the middle of a jungle and killed in order to keep shut a magical gate protected by the Unseen Ones.

Being the hero you are you are quick to join a random resistance and attempt to take down the Unseen ones. A long battle through the forces of a cult, a group of gods, and racist dwarfs you show those Gods who's boss around here and open their stupid magical gate. That'll show them to kill random unnamed NPC #42.

Turns out the gate was the only thing stopping an army of titans from invading the world and bring about the end times, and all that fun stuff. So yeah, your the biggest villain in game because pretty much all the "Bad guys" Have really good reasons for their lightly grey ideals.

Yeah don't forget the whole 'humans are the real monsters' thing with the Charr.
Basically humans arrived on the continent and overran it and pushed the Charr to the brink, the Charr retook their lands and 250 years later the humans are still having a QQ about how the Charr 'stole' Ascalon from them.

Why are humans in every fantasy setting such assholes? :/

God of War 3 comes to mind. In revenge for his children, he indirectly kills every human child in the world.

Jun_Jun:

Gustof26:
Guild wars, like all of them.

Guild Wars Prop. When you get to the country Of Kryta you find that the local population follows a group of deities known as the Unseen Ones. Every year a group of people with magical powers are dragged out into the middle of a jungle and killed in order to keep shut a magical gate protected by the Unseen Ones.

Being the hero you are you are quick to join a random resistance and attempt to take down the Unseen ones. A long battle through the forces of a cult, a group of gods, and racist dwarfs you show those Gods who's boss around here and open their stupid magical gate. That'll show them to kill random unnamed NPC #42.

Turns out the gate was the only thing stopping an army of titans from invading the world and bring about the end times, and all that fun stuff. So yeah, your the biggest villain in game because pretty much all the "Bad guys" Have really good reasons for their lightly grey ideals.

Yeah don't forget the whole 'humans are the real monsters' thing with the Charr.
Basically humans arrived on the continent and overran it and pushed the Charr to the brink, the Charr retook their lands and 250 years later the humans are still having a QQ about how the Charr 'stole' Ascalon from them.

Why are humans in every fantasy setting such assholes? :/

Because the vast majority of humanity are assholes? :P

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Shadow of Chernobyl.

Richard Hannay:
Braid. Turns out you're a creepy stalker who can't move on.

Dammit, I was hoping noone had mentioned Braid yet.

Iwata:
Tomb Raider/Uncharted.

Lara Croft and Nathan Drake are the worst things to happen to archaeology since dynamite.

Bloody brilliant.

In all seriousness, a lot of times.

First thing that jumps up is probably Prototype. Alex is far from goody-goody. This is followed up by both Amnesia games.

Mass Effect's Shepard is a criminal depending on view point and the number of renegade options chosen. The body count is definitely up there.

I am quite surprised there are so few mentions of Assassin's creed. I mean... you are an assassin. You support anarchy. Subject 16 makes it obvious enough that the conflict is not as clear cut as "good guys" and "bad guys"

In less obvious options: in TES series (at least last 3) you are a bloody schizophrenic with D.I.D. at least on your first play through. How else can you become The Knight of the Nine AND Listener of the Hand AND The Mad God AND serve all other 15 princes of Daedra. I don't know exactly, but my bosmer in Oblivion was imprisoned for something truly vile.

That_Sneaky_Camper:

Treblaine:
While I'm on a roll: Red Dead Redemption

Apparently we are supposed to feel so sorry for John Marsten and that Ross is the real villain, that it's a terrible betrayal for the army to come after him (though I personally relished the new fighting as RDR had turned into farming simulator).

But Ross challenged that John was responsible for murdering men, women and children... and John didn't deny it, it shut him up and he changed the subject. John by all rights should pay the capital punishment for his crimes.

John complain about Ross kidnapping his family when we later learn that his wife is in fact a prostitute and has not been kidnapped but imprisoned. WHAT?!? Is John seriously calling lawful imprisonment kidnapping?

And after John gets killed in a shoot out WITH THE ARMY why does Jack want revenge? John worked his ass how getting freedom for his wife and son and then Jack throws it away by murdering Ross who was just trying to enjoy his retirement. I couldn't even shoot the gun out of Ross's hand, I HAD to kill him and the worst part both Ross's Wife and brother know I came for him so I'd be prime and likely suspect for his murder.

John WAS the bad guy, and he could only get Redemption by bringing in the rest of his gang AND dying for his crimes but Jack threw all that away by murdering Ross.

Those are all very fair points but Ross doesn't see the hypocrisy of his actions. John was trying to give up his old gang life and start a ranch with his family, had Ross not captured his family then he never would have killed all the people that he encounters in the main game. Ross was the one that forced John to take up the gun again.

Besides John acknowledges the crimes he committed in the past and he says that he pays for them daily as they haunt him. If John was truly beyond redemption he wouldn't have tried to fix up his life in the first place. Even his wife gave up the life of a prostitute so that she could join John in trying to rebuild their lives and create a better future for their son Jack. Given how Jack and Abigail seem to have come to no serious harm it does come off more as "protective custody" but Ross still took John's family away from him.

Furthermore Ross explicitly says that if John does what Ross asks of him then he will make sure that John receives a pardon and will be able to move on with his family life. John did everything Ross asked and should have had his criminal status under the law removed. Beyond that there are laws against the Army storming a private citizen's house which Ross would have broken by sending them to storm John's house and have him killed.

Ross comes off as a corrupt Federal Agent who not only kidnaps a man's family to blackmail him into doing what he wants but goes back on his promise of leaving John alone. He didn't deserve a peaceful retirement after what he did to John. I would have been able to forgive the man had he left John alone but clearly he didn't.

Now I'm not saying that Jack should have killed Ross, no, I agree with you when you say that invalidates everything John did to provide a better life for his son. John built up that ranch so Jack could one day inherit and live a comfortable life but he also sacrificed himself to Ross so that his family wouldn't be caught in the crossfire. Jack's revenge has made him an outlaw and made his life empty, this is reflected in Jack's gameplay quotes when he questions what he has become. Jack has become exactly like what his father once was, which John didn't want. Plus killing Ross still hasn't fixed John's reputation, in official history John Marston will be remembered as an outlaw and Ross as the hero who took him down. Even in death Ross won.

John was the bad guy who worked hard at gaining his redemption, Ross was a federal agent whose position over the law is meant to protect the citizens of the local population and yet he abused that power for his own gain to receive glory and fame. John deserves to be remembered as a hero, not Ross.

Well a War Criminal can run away and start a new life, and settle down but they still did what they did. This is not looking at their future criminality but how they must face justice for the crimes they have already committed.

John is NOT hunted for the people he killed IN the game. You can play totally honourably, only ever killing in self-defence or enforcement of the law but it won't change the fact that before the game even started John was guilty of multiple counts of murder.

"John acknowledges the crimes he committed in the past and he says that he pays for them daily as they haunt him."

Wow, from all the snarky back-chat between relaxed coolness you can really tell he is a tortured being [/sarcasm]. Nonsense, he is no where near getting fair punishment, saying "gosh I feel bad" is no where near a punishment fitting for a just society, especially in the Wild West. Why does this apply to John and not EVERY OTHER criminal? Notice John only ever says he is tortured by his crimes when he is being threatened with punishment. Otherwise he just says he is a bad person. Throughout the game he will suddenly threaten to kill people who won't cave into his commands.

"Ross comes off as a corrupt Federal Agent"

Nope, he shows no sign of corruption, never took any bribes nor abused his power for personal gain, never wavered in his cause to rid the West of these criminal psychopaths. What he is is an asshole, and just that. I thought we didn't care about assholes any more? I thought we'd grown out of assuming whether someone is a bad guy or not depending on how much or a jerk they are? Gregory House is an asshole but we love him for it. I've said it already, lawful imprisonment is NOT Kidnapping. John is like a broken record on the kidnapping thing but his family are lawfully in prison.

Ross made a promise he couldn't keep. He COULD get clemency for John's family if John brought in the rest of his gang... but he could NOT wipe the slate clean of John's crimes. John cannot kill his way out of his murderous crimes, it's a zero sum change. And saying he feels bad won't do well either, especially when he doesn't seem to feel the least bit tortured about it. Anyway, who says Ross has absolute power over the law, what if the family of one of John's Murder victims went to the State Governor and complained that the murderer of their son is living free?

What could Ross say to say this man was above the law? Yes, good that he brought in the rest of his gang but what stops their being done again? Gang goes on killing spree, then gang members kill each other and the last one standing walks free? Bullshit. Ross could only go along with the Government Troops to attempt to arrest or kill John who clearly would not come quietly.

"John was the bad guy who worked hard at gaining his redemption"

He couldn't redeem himself with killing more people. That would only spare his family. His only path to redemption was to pay for his crimes. Im the West, that meant with with his life. I don't think John could bare to stand trial to be publicly hanged, he chose to go down fighting.

"Ross was a federal agent whose position over the law is meant to protect the citizens of the local population and yet he abused that power for his own gain to receive glory and fame."

Really? And where did Jack find Ross? With his family, living a humble retirement out of the way, not giving speeches and pinning over ghost writers to publish his memoirs. It seems only his competition in the bureau had scorn for him and his medals, likely over jealousy. But you don't seem to understand what medals are. You can buy a tin medal for a couple bucks in a thrift store, but an EARNED one means invaluably more. It means to was instrumental in getting rid of an extremely dangerous gang. He DID protect the citizens by routing this gang. He did NOT abuse his power, he USED it properly. And he shunned glory and fame, promptly retiring when the job was done rather than further his power in the bureaucracy.

I can't believe how many assume he is the bad guy just because he is a bit of a jerk.

Jack is the bastard here, Is he going to kill all the soldiers as well? The governor who sent them (only he has that power)? When will Jack's orgy or revenge end? It should have ended before it started by recognising it was justice for his father to die, either in beign arrested or by hanging.

Super Mario Bros. 2
What did Wart ever do to them?

Pikmin
The pikmin think Omar is their daddy, and what does he do with them? SENDS THEM TO THEIR DEATHS! What an ass.

Megaman X
Hey, if you didn't read the manual, X and Zero could have been terrorists and it would make the same level of sense.

Jak 2
Think about it...

I didn't know the Closed Fist ending, in Jade Empire would be so brutal and heart-wrenching as I thought it was going to be. Dark Side ain't shit.

The original Deus Ex.

Now, I'm not sure whether or not it's part of the story (as I haven't completed the game and I'm not entirely sure how far in I am)...

...But to me, JC Denton feels like a sociopath. Because I tend to take the aggressive route (simply because it's the easiest way forwards often), people comment on how JC kills lots of people. Which is fine, but he never seems particularly bothered.

Moreover, the fact that *Spoiler Alert* his brother dies and he displays barely any emotion just reinforces this.

At this point, I'm playing up to that a bit more. Being a bit more ruthless, being a bit colder in my responses to things. :)

Forlong:
Megaman X
Hey, if you didn't read the manual, X and Zero could have been terrorists and it would make the same level of sense.

Honestly, you could use that excuse for every game where the storyline is in the manual, however unlikely it would be that X would deliberately be trying to terrorize innocent people/reploids.

Also, in the case of Mario 2, I believe it was stated that Wart was oppressing the people who lived there, or something to that affect.

I dunno, I question threads like this cause some of the explanations are really a stretch of believability. Not always, of course, but sometimes I think people try too hard to justify vilifying the protagonist. I still don't follow the logic that Leon is a "bad guy" mowing down innocent peasants. Also keep in mind that the president's daughter is kidnapped, and you have a hostile situation that must be dealt with.

Tomb raider - she's a grave robber

lost planet - Invading another planet and immediately try to murder all indiginus life forms because you already screwed up your own planet, way to take the moral high ground guys

Vampire the masquerade - while you can try and play it in the traditional 'good' seance your still an unholy creature of the night

Assassins creed (series) - They murder any one who tyres to bring some sort of order to the world, and may I remind you that the Templars methods shed a lot less blood.

Terrara:

I am quite surprised there are so few mentions of Assassin's creed. I mean... you are an assassin. You support anarchy. Subject 16 makes it obvious enough that the conflict is not as clear cut as "good guys" and "bad guys"

I think it's because it IS obvious. Assassins are not supposed to be nice people and the game consistently pushes the ambiguity of whether all this is right or wrong, not clearly trying to garner sympathy for what by any normal perspective is the bad guy.

Singularity!
Its mostly the ending(s) that makes you evil since you have three options:
A) help the "good" sientist with going back in time to kill yourself(via murder no suicide well ... kind of), he later becomes ruler of the world without you ever knowing
B) help the evil sientist to regain his world power with you in charge of his mutant army
C) you kill both of them and go dark to later become the mysterius man who is building up an empire containing half the world(so far)

So please do tell me wich is the "good" chose of these!

DoPo:
The Elder Scrolls franchise? In Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (you didn't in Daggerfall, as I recall, and I haven't played the others) you start off as a prisoner. The guards don't strike me as jerks who'll stick anybody in prison just for kicks.

Maybe for some people... but my guy is usually an asshole through and through, so I always know I'm the villain :X The world would have been better off with the dragons!

The Alliance in Warcraft, they're absolute BASTARDS if you look at half the shit they do. The only reason people assume that the Horde are the bad guys is because they're more non human looking.

Most RTS games where you view your troops as expendable numbers, I doubt many officers would send almost all of their troops in to certain death because it was the most efficient way of beating the enemy

Also quite obviously PayDay the heist, but thats one where you do know it. You play as bank robbers xP

A lot of video games with outlandish body counts. They even referenced it at the end of Uncharted 2.

Codeman90:
Live-A-Live. No spoilers for you =p

Ha! Joke's on you, I actually played it.

Nokshor:
The original Deus Ex.

Now, I'm not sure whether or not it's part of the story (as I haven't completed the game and I'm not entirely sure how far in I am)...

...But to me, JC Denton feels like a sociopath. Because I tend to take the aggressive route (simply because it's the easiest way forwards often), people comment on how JC kills lots of people. Which is fine, but he never seems particularly bothered.

Moreover, the fact that *Spoiler Alert* his brother dies and he displays barely any emotion just reinforces this.

At this point, I'm playing up to that a bit more. Being a bit more ruthless, being a bit colder in my responses to things. :)

Oh, you must be wrong, he is so sympathetic to all death around him

Hmm, maybe you are on to something.

Infernai:
What about Drakengard? Ok, so you start off as a guy who's fighting against an evil empire in a battle to save his sister? Ok, yeah, i can get behind that...decent motivation and all tha- Wait, why are you murdering child soldiers? ....Wait, you seem to be a little bit TOO into this whole 'killing soldiers' thing. Hold on, did you just bring a Child murdering Cannibal into the Party!?

In Drakengards Defense though, morality was so fucked up in that game that it was literally a battle of: Evil vs Evil vs EVEN WORSE.

I loved that game! thats the first time I've seen someone bring it up on the escapist. That game is crazy >.< you recruit that kid with eternal youth to kill his sister or something. I love it, its so crazy :P

Nokshor:
The original Deus Ex.

Now, I'm not sure whether or not it's part of the story (as I haven't completed the game and I'm not entirely sure how far in I am)...

...But to me, JC Denton feels like a sociopath. Because I tend to take the aggressive route (simply because it's the easiest way forwards often), people comment on how JC kills lots of people. Which is fine, but he never seems particularly bothered.

Moreover, the fact that *Spoiler Alert* his brother dies and he displays barely any emotion just reinforces this.

At this point, I'm playing up to that a bit more. Being a bit more ruthless, being a bit colder in my responses to things. :)

I just want to point out that Paul actually doesn't have to die, and canon wise he actually does survive.
JC feels like a sociopath to you because you play him as one. It is possible to go through the whole game without killing a single person.
But seeing as you havent finished the game I wont say any more.

OT: Can't remember where I read this (probably here) but in dragon age origins, the bad guy is actually not so bad. While his methods are not the nicest, they are the most effective way of preparing for the attack, and instead of helping him, you run around sabotaging everything he does.

Artorius:
Portal series comes to mind

wait... why Portal? you play as a woman who is just trying to escape from a maniacal robot that is forcing you to do dangerous tests in the hopes that they will eventually kill you. its like trying to escape from a concentration camp and being called a bad guy.

as for my vote, id have to go with Knights of the Old Republic. you find out you are actually the main villain of the series at a later point in the game.

1) Driver: San Francisco- You wreck half the cars of San Francisco, and maybe the drivers too (I know Tanner is in a coma, but he doesn´t)

2)Final Fight: The city is a Slum, all the inhabitants you see are thugs. I think this call for a good mayor, someone who attacks the root of the problems in the city. Instead, voters choose the insane wrestler who time to time goes to the mean streets to punch some rejects.

Midgeamoo:
The Alliance in Warcraft, they're absolute BASTARDS if you look at half the shit they do. The only reason people assume that the Horde are the bad guys is because they're more non human looking.

Most RTS games where you view your troops as expendable numbers, I doubt many officers would send almost all of their troops in to certain death because it was the most efficient way of beating the enemy

Also quite obviously PayDay the heist, but thats one where you do know it. You play as bank robbers xP

That was true during Warcraft III and it's expansion The Frozen Throne.

However in World of Warcraft, Blizzard started making The Horde more and more morally ambiguous up to the point that nowadays they're pretty much outright villains (or at least "Well Intentioned Extremists").

First, they accept the Forsaken among their ranks, a faction of evil Undead people that has no intention of redeeming themselves, and will betray the Horde as soon as they get rid of the Alliance.
For the Forsaken, torture, assasination and the use of biological WMDs (a.k.a "The Plague") are a common practice.

The Horde Warchief, Garrosh Hellscream, is a warmongering douchebag that would NEVER give peace a chance, and has world-conquering ambitions.

Orcs & Goblins have no problem deforestating Ashenvale and polluting the world at an industrial scale.

Pablo Lubrano:

The Horde Warchief, Garrosh Hellscream, is a warmongering douchebag that would NEVER give peace a chance, and has world-conquering ambitions.
.

Oh god yes, the Horde felt way worse to play as after they lost Thrall as their Warcheif, but then again, he never really was a War like man, he was surprisingly peaceful considering his job title. He was also the most awesomestestest shaman ever, and still looks epic in the center of that whirlpool thingy.

The only one that comes to mind is a work of IF called 9:05 by Adam Cadre.
http://ifdb.tads.org/viewgame?id=qzftg3j8nh5f34i2

Artorius:
Portal series comes to mind,
and Postal series also.
and Prototype, please the dude commits mass genocide.

In what way are you the bad guy in Portal and Portal 2?

I mean, you're basically a lab rat desperately trying to escape before you're killed. Again. And then brought back to life so that you can die some more. That's hardly evil... though if you have an amusing reason why it is I'd love to hear it.

renegade7:
Minecraft. Think about it. You go around devastating the natural world, cutting trees, killing all sorts of animals and creatures, and the extensive mining is probably not good for the soil. For what? So you can have a tower.

Yeah...

You know what? I'm gonna burn down my house and stop eating meat. And plants. Or trying to defend myself from the elements in any way. Just gonna let nature take over.

Anything else would just be evil. :-P

Technically Metal gear solid 4. As Snake becomes a weapon of mass destruction with the modified FOXDIE. So... In a way, not even he knew he was a bad guy.

Midgeamoo:

Pablo Lubrano:

The Horde Warchief, Garrosh Hellscream, is a warmongering douchebag that would NEVER give peace a chance, and has world-conquering ambitions.
.

Oh god yes, the Horde felt way worse to play as after they lost Thrall as their Warcheif, but then again, he never really was a War like man, he was surprisingly peaceful considering his job title. He was also the most awesomestestest shaman ever, and still looks epic in the center of that whirlpool thingy.

Truefax. The horde was pretty much as peaceful as the alliance right up until Garrosh took over. Freaking hell Thrall, what were you thinking!?

I think Jim Sterling had a pretty good take on the Kirby games.

Kirby is a cold blooded mass murderer who gleefully devours, burns, mutilates, shocks, and freezes the innocent civilians of Popstar!

And I think the players in L4D are just on a very bad acid trip.....

sant25:

2)Final Fight: The city is a Slum, all the inhabitants you see are thugs. I think this call for a good mayor, someone who attacks the root of the problems in the city. Instead, voters choose the insane wrestler who time to time goes to the mean streets to punch some rejects.

Brilliant!

Somehow when you have ripped your shirt off in a hulk like rage and are knocking back hoards of gang members, it's so easy to forget your civic duty as elected mayor.

geK0:

Kirby is a cold blooded mass murderer who gleefully devours, burns, mutilates, shocks, and freezes the innocent civilians of Popstar!

And we love him for it.

Or we shall be devoured.

For some reason Donkey Kong Jungle Beat came to mind... in which you charge through the territories of 4-5 Simian rulers who, for all the game tells us, have fully just claims to their land, usurp them, kill a bunch of wildlife, steal all their bananas, and then beat the ever-loving SHIT out of them. A lot.

Then at the end, the now subservient former kings are forced to ritualistically dance for their new ruler.

DEFCON, seems simple enough to begin with, defend your country, basic RTS, but when i think about it, I have initiated global thermonuclear war, and killed literally billions of people, because I was unwilling to settle for anything less than seeing the smouldering, radioactive ruins of my opponents cities

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