So I realized what was wrong with MW3's plot.

I'm not talking about how short the campaign is, or how predictable it was (at least for me). I'm talking about the war the story is told through. Two of the largest military forces in the world are absent: China and India. 1st and 3rd in size respectively. Now China may not have any reason to attack in favor of either side, but India definitely does. Makarov's men (Russian Military men) send a pretty large force (300+ soldiers and air support) to attack Nicholai's safe house in India. So India doesn't even respond?! What a load of shit. Even if Russia had some sort of agreement where they could have standing military units in India (which they don't, in-game or otherwise), India would definitely respond when the Russian forces start killing civilians! Play "Persona Non Grata" again and you'll see what I mean.

It may seem pointless to criticize a game's campaign when it's played almost entirely for its multiplayer, especially since it's 3 months after the release and 2 & 1/2 months since anyone has played the campaign, but it's been buggin' the shit outta' me for a few days, and I felt the need to share. Comment if I missed any other massive plot holes.

Owen Robertson:
It may seem pointless to criticize a game's campaign when it's played almost entirely for its multiplayer

But they still got the balls to think that the shitty campaign will keep the customers shut from bitching about "The game needs to stand on his own." So yeah, rip it appart as you please

Yes, because you will see the entirety of every single nation fighting in World War 3 through the eyes of 4 different soldiers that are neither Indian or Chinese. Brilliant logic.

imahobbit4062:
Yes, because you will see the entirety of every single nation fighting in World War 3 through the eyes of 4 different soldiers that are neither Indian or Chinese. Brilliant logic.

you would expect to atleast here about it

I'm more concerned with Frost's mysterious disappearance.

imahobbit4062:
Yes, because you will see the entirety of every single nation fighting in World War 3 through the eyes of 4 different soldiers that are neither Indian or Chinese. Brilliant logic.

It doesn't matter whose eyes you see it from - you'd still have day to day encounters with the fact that other nations are fighting too.

What you said was ridiculous. It's like claiming that an American soldier in either of the World Wars wouldn't have known that other nations were fighting.

SillyBear:

imahobbit4062:
Yes, because you will see the entirety of every single nation fighting in World War 3 through the eyes of 4 different soldiers that are neither Indian or Chinese. Brilliant logic.

It doesn't matter whose eyes you see it from - you'd still have day to day encounters with the fact that other nations are fighting too.

What you said was ridiculous. It's like claiming that an American soldier in either of the World Wars wouldn't have known that other nations were fighting.

Except we don't see their day to day lives, we get a mission briefing to cover a loading screen and the mission. That is it. We are focused solely on the mission. Not on their day of fighting, just the mission.

ChupathingyX:
I'm more concerned with Frost's mysterious disappearance.

As was I, it made no sense at all.

Yeah, I stopped buying Call of Duty games after Black Ops shitty single player. I am actually more surprised that you were surprised the single player was such a dissapointment. But I'll try to reign in my distaste for the franchise and address your point at hand.

What you said is true, actually, I am under the assumption the mission in question takes place -in- India, and you are either trying to kill or capture this Makarov fellow (he was a bad guy or something from the second one, right? it got confusing, there was a bunch of shooting, and some cheap attempt to tweak controversy, then a bunch of teammates I didn't give a crap about died, and then there was more shooting.) Anyway, if Russian troops are shooting civilians in the streets of India, as a PC, yes I would find it odd that no Indian Military personelle responded, seeing as the rest of the goddamned planet's supposed to be at war, I imagine India would be a little wary about any wrong-doings in their border that would force them into an action they did not want to take.

I would levy my complaints more towards character development, as that is what makes a good story in my opinion.

On the plot front, I do find it odd that no mention was made of China or India, too.

imahobbit4062:
Yes, because you will see the entirety of every single nation fighting in World War 3 through the eyes of 4 different soldiers that are neither Indian or Chinese. Brilliant logic.

It doesn't matter whose eyes you see it from - you'd still have day to day encounters with the fact that other nations are fighting too.

What you said was ridiculous. It's like claiming that an American soldier in either of the World Wars wouldn't have known that other nations were fighting.[/quote]Except we don't see their day to day lives, we get a mission briefing to cover a loading screen and the mission. That is it. We are focused solely on the mission. Not on their day of fighting, just the mission.[/quote]Maybe that's a problem with the way the story's told. Focusing on the mission so much, while "realistic," is not helpful when you're trying to tell a story. MW3's plot shouldn't be, "We'll parachute into the compound and cut the power before proceeding to objective Alpha."

ultrachicken:
I would levy my complaints more towards character development, as that is what makes a good story in my opinion.

On the plot front, I do find it odd that no mention was made of China or India, too.

imahobbit4062:
Yes, because you will see the entirety of every single nation fighting in World War 3 through the eyes of 4 different soldiers that are neither Indian or Chinese. Brilliant logic.

It doesn't matter whose eyes you see it from - you'd still have day to day encounters with the fact that other nations are fighting too.

What you said was ridiculous. It's like claiming that an American soldier in either of the World Wars wouldn't have known that other nations were fighting.

Except we don't see their day to day lives, we get a mission briefing to cover a loading screen and the mission. That is it. We are focused solely on the mission. Not on their day of fighting, just the mission.[/quote]Maybe that's a problem with the way the story's told. Focusing on the mission so much, while "realistic," is not helpful when you're trying to tell a story. MW3's plot shouldn't be, "We'll parachute into the compound and cut the power before proceeding to objective Alpha."[/quote]That is how Special Forces operate. Not to mention Call Of Duty has always been that way.

imahobbit4062:

ultrachicken:
I would levy my complaints more towards character development, as that is what makes a good story in my opinion.

On the plot front, I do find it odd that no mention was made of China or India, too.

imahobbit4062:
Yes, because you will see the entirety of every single nation fighting in World War 3 through the eyes of 4 different soldiers that are neither Indian or Chinese. Brilliant logic.

It doesn't matter whose eyes you see it from - you'd still have day to day encounters with the fact that other nations are fighting too.

What you said was ridiculous. It's like claiming that an American soldier in either of the World Wars wouldn't have known that other nations were fighting.

Except we don't see their day to day lives, we get a mission briefing to cover a loading screen and the mission. That is it. We are focused solely on the mission. Not on their day of fighting, just the mission.

Maybe that's a problem with the way the story's told. Focusing on the mission so much, while "realistic," is not helpful when you're trying to tell a story. MW3's plot shouldn't be, "We'll parachute into the compound and cut the power before proceeding to objective Alpha."[/quote]That is how Special Forces operate. Not to mention Call Of Duty has always been that way.[/quote]As I said, this is true, but it still doesn't make a good story. Plus, there should have been more room for exposition at least in the disavowed TF141 loading screens. You would think Price and Soap would be discussing the events of the war.

Heh, that's whats wrong? Not "invading all of Europe"? There are never enough forces in Russia to hold stand for longer than 1 day if we look at the "big" countries and their forces alone. Since those forces are all over the country... well, lets say it is impossible to hit them all with gas attacks at the same time and attack every country with a division of 10k-100k men. Most of Europes military is run pretty good (lets say: it's the only place in germany I don't hear from idiots in charge), the reformation and the following strike won't take longer than 24h. With success.

TheKasp:
Heh, that's whats wrong? Not "invading all of Europe"?

I second this. If we are critiquing how the war is told then shouldn't we be picking up on the part which involved the Russian army actually getting to Paris? IRL, the Russian army would have severe difficulty getting past two million NATO standard European soldiers fighting on their home turf. They would never get to Paris, let alone Berlin or Prague. It's about as silly as Russia successfully invading America as it happened in MW2.

After COD4, the Modern Warfare franchise really descended into the realm of fantasy. The games are still fun to play with great multiplayer, but it seems highly dishonest to title a game which involves Russia invading the USA and Europe as "modern warfare". Cold War Fantasy warfare sounds more like it. If we find out in later games that Captain Price is immortal because he drank from the Holy Grail and is actually one of the Knights of Camelot then that would actually fit quite well into the world of "Modern Warfare".

Nickolai77:

TheKasp:
Heh, that's whats wrong? Not "invading all of Europe"?

I second this. If we are critiquing how the war is told then shouldn't we be picking up on the part which involved the Russian army actually getting to Paris? IRL, the Russian army would have severe difficulty getting past two million NATO standard European soldiers fighting on their home turf. They would never get to Paris, let alone Berlin or Prague. It's about as silly as Russia successfully invading America as it happened in MW2.

After COD4, the Modern Warfare franchise really descended into the realm of fantasy. The games are still fun to play with great multiplayer, but it seems highly dishonest to title a game which involves Russia invading the USA and Europe as "modern warfare". Cold War Fantasy warfare sounds more like it. If we find out in later games that Captain Price is immortal because he drank from the Holy Grail and is actually one of the Knights of Camelot then that would actually fit quite well into the world of "Modern Warfare".

You guys do realize that Modern Warfare doesn't take place in real life timeline?

It actually takes place in an alternate timeline where things began to diverage around the Cherynbol Incident.

So when anyone says: "Well in real life..."

It doesn't matter because the game timeline doesn't take place in our '2000's.

Korten12:
[quote="Nickolai77" post="9.352399.13967445"]
You guys do realize that Modern Warfare doesn't take place in real life timeline?

It actually takes place in an alternate timeline where things began to diverage around the Cherynbol Incident.

So when anyone says: "Well in real life..."

It doesn't matter because the game timeline doesn't take place in our '2000's.

As far as I understand, the Soviet Union still collapsed in the CoD world, so Russia cannot call upon the millions of troops it could have in a cold war setting. The EU may or may not exist, but NATO still does (a reasonable assumption, as the game never states that NATO disbanded). Since the rise of the Ultranationalist party, whose stated aim is to return to the glory days of the Soviet Union, the rest of Europe would be watching Russia very closely (especially ex-Warsaw Pact countries).

Not to mention, they've already launched an invasion of the US (further sapping their available manpower and material resources). Considering what Russia wants, and what they've already done to achieve those ends, every military in Europe would be on very high alert, all leave canceled etc. In this situation, as stated by the game, a surprise attack that overruns all of Europe within weeks is impossible. At best Russia could overrun some of the smaller Eastern European countries, but would get bogged down there as NATO members mobilise their troops.

The only way this possible situation can work is if the story completely ignores the wider ramifications (both military and political, but mostly political) of what Russia is doing. Which the Modern Warfare series has always done.

Edit: And that makes them weaker stories in my mind.

Too me its just explody simplicity at its finest. It doesn't have to be written well it just needs to have money behind it. And before anyone calls me someone who hates indie games, think about this:

How great is it to walk out of a badass movie, that obviously spent billions on the budget, with your friends just talking about it on the way to your car(s)?

I do like Call of Duty but its quality has been gradually decreasing (Black ops was a slight bit better than MW2)

You know what irked me most about MW3? That you got to play as neither the GSG 9 nor the GIGN, even though you went on missions in both Germany and France. The only involvement the GIGN had were a few characters holding down an alleyway, most dead. I mean, I saw it as an opportunity to go back to classic CoD. Different campaigns as different people, and whatnot. A campaign in America fighting off the rest of the Ruskies, playing as the Delta Force guy, a campaign in France and Germany fighting off the Russian invasion as the GIGN and GSG 9, respectively, and doing your thing as an SAS agent with Captain Price and friends. And it didn't happen. Just the Delta Force schmuck everywhere, and Soap and Price doing their thing wherever because whatever.

Doing things my totally awesome, amazing, brilliant, and handsome way could have involved different kinds of weapons unique to the campaigns, too. Like, the GIGN could have been equipped with the FAMAS, the FR F2... the GSG 9 could have access to all of H&K's plentiful arms, the Delta Force guy could have unique super secret special-ops gear and guns, and the SAS could be forced to slum it or something because they're not being supplied because they're outlaws, making do with what they've got (or more accurately, what the enemy's got), and so on.

Buuuut no. No interesting or good ideas for me. Just a box with a company-approved amount and quality of "fun" inside.

...getting back on topic... wow, that really is a massive plot hole. I'm surprised your brain was working by that point to notice it, though.

at least you should had hear a soldier say something like "not only we have to worry about the russians, but the chinnese are also fighting around here"

but no, apparently all there is to war is america, russia and a few especial guests from other countries. curious how that is a world war. (i know they invaded all of europe [with neither makes any sense. you can't expect people to believe they are just pulling out of an invasion of the USA, and they still have enough soldiers to occuppy europe.], but apparntly american soldiers fight for most of those contries too..)

Terminate421:

I do like Call of Duty but its quality has been gradually decreasing (Black ops was a slight bit better than MW2)

i have to disagree with that. while is very unreal that russia could invade the usa without anyone noticing them moving troops. (no wikileaks, no home video of a guy that saw all the boats leaveing the russian ports, no secret inteligent services sending information about the incoming attack [though giving green light to kill civilians, when you could just have killed the terrorist leader and his top men on the spot]), you killed Fidel castro in a the mission which is supposed to be the invasion of Bahia de Cochinos. an operation that actually failed, and caused a lot of political troubles and remember that fidel himself may still be alive to this day. wonder if cuba didn't said anything about that game, but the president of venezuela blames "mercenaries 2" of being a game about trying to kill him (real story), because it takes place in venezuela.

Owen Robertson:
I'm not talking about how short the campaign is, or how predictable it was (at least for me). I'm talking about the war the story is told through. Two of the largest military forces in the world are absent: China and India. 1st and 3rd in size respectively. Now China may not have any reason to attack in favor of either side, but India definitely does. Makarov's men (Russian Military men) send a pretty large force (300+ soldiers and air support) to attack Nicholai's safe house in India. So India doesn't even respond?! What a load of shit. Even if Russia had some sort of agreement where they could have standing military units in India (which they don't, in-game or otherwise), India would definitely respond when the Russian forces start killing civilians! Play "Persona Non Grata" again and you'll see what I mean.

It may seem pointless to criticize a game's campaign when it's played almost entirely for its multiplayer, especially since it's 3 months after the release and 2 & 1/2 months since anyone has played the campaign, but it's been buggin' the shit outta' me for a few days, and I felt the need to share. Comment if I missed any other massive plot holes.

Nothing wrong with that. Soap and Price are labeled as rogue agents. There's no reason India would go into a costly war to protect the equivalent of terrorists. And of course remember: the Russian President legitimately wanted peace and Makarov kidnapped him so obviously his men aren't exactly representing Russian intentions.

Btw, in real life, America has killed lots of Pakistani civilians and staged a full blown raid into Pakistan territory without permission and but they didn't start a war over it.

way2sl0w:

Nothing wrong with that. Soap and Price are labeled as rogue agents. There's no reason India would go into a costly war to protect the equivalent of terrorists. And of course remember: the Russian President legitimately wanted peace and Makarov kidnapped him so obviously his men aren't exactly representing Russian intentions.

wich makes it kind of weird as yathzee said it. "if the russians were so decided to negotiate peace, that the president was already on the plane, who the fuck gave the order to invade europe?"

they never stablish that makarov takes control of the russian goverment when he kidnaps the president, and i am sure the russians would prioritize a rescue operation of their leader than an unauthorized full scale war.

and what would they gained from invading europe? more land to the already large amount of land they can barely control? or it was it just a patetic excuse to raise the stakes, because just withing 2 or 3 missions they recover control of america?

Stukov Wolfwood:

wich makes it kind of weird as yathzee said it. "if the russians were so decided to negotiate peace, that the president was already on the plane, who the fuck gave the order to invade europe?"

they never stablish that makarov takes control of the russian goverment when he kidnaps the president, and i am sure the russians would prioritize a rescue operation of their leader than an unauthorized full scale war.

and what would they gained from invading europe? more land to the already large amount of land they can barely control? or it was it just a patetic excuse to raise the stakes, because just withing 2 or 3 missions they recover control of america?

Go back and play the beginning of the airplane mission where the Russian president explains to his daughter that people in his cabinet didn't want to make peace with the west. There's a scene where his advisor(minister of defense or something) yells at him for cowering to the west (right before Makarov's men burst in). That's the POINT of a coup - to replace the president with someone who will change policy.

Of course it's utterly ridiculous. If Russia was to ever invade Europe, take on the ALREADY significant armies that Eastern Europe already possesses, AS WELL as fight off the other allied powers like NATO that want to stop them. I doubt they'd even get past Ukraine...

Like... seriously. If Russia declares an intention to invade a former soviet territory, that's grounds for a lot of European countries to go to war with Russia on account of some treaty that I can't remember the name of. So that's all of Eastern Europe's forces V Russia already.

That's not including the military grindhouses like Finland that has a history of kicking Russia's ass, Germany one of the most advanced armies in the world, France one of the most underrated armies in the world with one of the highest military spending in the world, and the UK that has some of the most badass infantry, tanks and special ops in the world.

Sure Russia's army would blitz any of those armies if they where just one on one. But NO force on the Earth could ever successfully invade any significant mass of Europe without first nuking it, and then claiming the nuclear wasteland that left behind.

So yeah, even with just Eastern Europe against Russia, it's unlikely they would get past Ukraine, MAYBE they'd get into Poland, but that's where the rolling ball would stop. But by that point everyone else in Europe would have got involved. That would definitely put a stop to it. And if for some reason the pretty much invincible combined European military is trumped America will no doubt involved, that's yet more kicked ass on the Russian side. No doubt Canada and Australia will get involved too. Japan COULD get involved, but I think going to war violates their constitution. So basically, that's Russia against all the countries that can MORE than defend themselves. It's bloody impossible I say.

Also, not to mention the fact that Russia is no longer batshit crazy and wants to rule the world like in the cold war. They're cool guys now. Friends with Europe. And it doesn't look like that's about to change. :3

The problem is not the plot, but the shitty gameplay.

The problem with the MW3 plot was the pacing more than anything. There was no pacing. It was all guns blazing all the time, action set pieces, fancy explosions etc.

"...or how predictable it was (at least for me)..." I stopped taking you serious after that. What's wrong with the plot is that one man, who's only asset was a bunch of money, started a world war. What actually pissed me off about it is that every single level you play ends with you failing. That annoyed the shit out of me.

Honestly, my problem with the plot is that WW3 doesn't really feel like WW3. You never get to see a perspective other than Frost's, 141's, & the one SAS operative. Kinda sad, because a game that advertised WW3 should've allowed to play as GIGN forces, GSG 9, Austrian commandos, or more SAS operations at the very least. At least we'd establish that the war is truly worldwide.

New York is fucked for two missions, then apparently Russia pulls out. Why no fighting in the Southern U.S., or anything in the West Coast for that matter, seeing how in MW2, they managed to practically assfuck their way into the East for a good bit? Because I'm thinking Russia, being able to strike at D.C, should've at least hit something interesting in combat.

If Makarov's goal is WW3 on the West, why doesn't he use backpack nuclear bombs or something instead of this long, drawn-out chem warfare fest that seems to end badly for Russian forces? Or what about Makarov's Inner Circle? Why aren't they developed a bit more? Or what Shepherd from MW2's Shadow Company? What's the deal with them in WW3?

Or what about the fact that the world never seems to be in any real danger, despite the fact Russia (along with Makarov's Inner Circle) manage to chemical bomb Europe & assist Russian forces during the invasion? Even COD4 had a sense of urgency around it in a way.

Then comes the ending, which is epic but kinda anti-climatic. Here's a guy, Makarov, who truly wants to bring WW3 to the West, but instead of taking over, say, a Soviet-era nuclear silo & attempting to use that with an ICBM, he apparently decides to hide in an expensive, famous hotel with a massive military contingent of his own peeps & decides to run away when confronted.

Honestly, I may have gotten off-track, but it seems like the writing should've been focused more.

Well you could write off china's non involvment is because well China has never been one for interventionism or expansionism they may want to but the facts stand that China cant control its own people they arent worried about the US there worried about the daily 1,000 protesters / protests or so that go on in the country. India is like the US in a military Context i dont know how many days In game since the invasion but India at all times has the bulk of its Army looking at Pakistan second of all World wars are called World wars mostly because the West and the rest of the World views it as the "world"

Robert Ewing:
Of course it's utterly ridiculous. If Russia was to ever invade Europe, take on the ALREADY significant armies that Eastern Europe already possesses, AS WELL as fight off the other allied powers like NATO that want to stop them. I doubt they'd even get past Ukraine...

Like... seriously. If Russia declares an intention to invade a former soviet territory, that's grounds for a lot of European countries to go to war with Russia on account of some treaty that I can't remember the name of. So that's all of Eastern Europe's forces V Russia already.

That's not including the military grindhouses like Finland that has a history of kicking Russia's ass, Germany one of the most advanced armies in the world, France one of the most underrated armies in the world with one of the highest military spending in the world, and the UK that has some of the most badass infantry, tanks and special ops in the world.

Sure Russia's army would blitz any of those armies if they where just one on one. But NO force on the Earth could ever successfully invade any significant mass of Europe without first nuking it, and then claiming the nuclear wasteland that left behind.

So yeah, even with just Eastern Europe against Russia, it's unlikely they would get past Ukraine, MAYBE they'd get into Poland, but that's where the rolling ball would stop. But by that point everyone else in Europe would have got involved. That would definitely put a stop to it. And if for some reason the pretty much invincible combined European military is trumped America will no doubt involved, that's yet more kicked ass on the Russian side. No doubt Canada and Australia will get involved too. Japan COULD get involved, but I think going to war violates their constitution. So basically, that's Russia against all the countries that can MORE than defend themselves. It's bloody impossible I say.

Also, not to mention the fact that Russia is no longer batshit crazy and wants to rule the world like in the cold war. They're cool guys now. Friends with Europe. And it doesn't look like that's about to change. :3

and if one is a little into recent history of russia's militar forces, one would find out that currently they are to busy trying to avoid certain zones of the country to rebel and become independent countries since the fall of the soviet union. they have a lot of land indeed, but can barely control various parts of it.

and i have a hard time to believe that enough people of russia beyond some isolated cells would want to go back to the days of the soviet union. maybe throw down the current goverment but not going back to the soviet union.

If a conflict of the scale of MW3 broke out, China and India would likely both stay out of it as much as possible. China especially doesn't like getting involved in things that don't directly concern them. So that part of the plot at least makes sense.

Now on the Russian front - it's ridiculous enough to think that Russia could get the military power to launch a full-scale invasion of the US like in MW2. But even if we let that slide, how is it that AFTER their invasion of the US has been thwarted they somehow have enough military capacity remaining to take on all of Europe at once? Sure, they started with a relatively cheap but effective series of chemical attacks but still - in the US they lost a large percentage of their air power in the EMP explosion, and a large percentage of their naval power in New York, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers between the two. What would they have left?

XMark:

Now on the Russian front - it's ridiculous enough to think that Russia could get the military power to launch a full-scale invasion of the US like in MW2. But even if we let that slide, how is it that AFTER their invasion of the US has been thwarted they somehow have enough military capacity remaining to take on all of Europe at once? Sure, they started with a relatively cheap but effective series of chemical attacks but still - in the US they lost a large percentage of their air power in the EMP explosion, and a large percentage of their naval power in New York, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers between the two. What would they have left?

like yathzee said, they play like fantasies of people that wish the cold war never end. that's why there is a lot of plot points that does not make any sense in the game. If the cold war had never ended or that they explain since cod4 that this was an alternate universe were the only realistic thing is the guns, it would made sense.

cod4 had it's feet on the ground, the main thread was a conflict in a non espedific midle east country, wich escaled in terrorism of a higher rank. (they kinda stop making sense when they got nuclear missils aimed to america, yet makarov could get them in mw3.)

ChupathingyX:
I'm more concerned with Frost's mysterious disappearance.

MW4 no doubt.

MiracleOfSound:

ChupathingyX:
I'm more concerned with Frost's mysterious disappearance.

MW4 no doubt.

Because he's not in the second last mission? Bugged me too. Oh well...

ChupathingyX:
I'm more concerned with Frost's mysterious disappearance.

DLC man! He'll get his own mission.
Oh, wait. All we ever get are map packs. So...yeah, where did he go? I often wonder if he was supposed to be McCoy--the guy that gets killed in the opening of the level--but they had to change it. I'm sure he'll be back though, and it will explain in the next game where he went. They did it with Soap and Price anyway.
I know! He went to whatever location Rameriz, Dunn, and Folely went to!

Owen Robertson:
Makarov's men (Russian Military men) send a pretty large force (300+ soldiers and air support) to attack Nicholai's safe house in India.

See, you touched on a deeper thing that bugs me about the entire war. Who exactly are we fighting? So...the bad Russians kidnap the President and wipe out his staff. And the Russian army just...keeps fighting? Or did they all suddenly bow to Makarov and continue the war? No way he has enough men to keep up that fight. I mean, are we supposed to believe that his mean are the ones that attacked Berlin and brought it to it's knees? Or did the Russian Army think it was a good idea to attack the very city where their President's daughter is being kept safe? And who's going to answer for the chemical attack? Sure it was Makarov's men, but the world is going to see it as Russia.
Yeah, that entire war is a bit of a mess if you look too closely at it.

 

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