Bad guys you quickly/later realized weren't actually evil.

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Title pretty much says it: Give me a person or group from a game that who you initially looked at as the bad guys, and either sooner or later, realized that they weren't evil at all. Maybe they have done a few things to get in your way, but they're not really your enemy.

I was playing Dead Space 2 and instead of trekking forward, I decided to stop at the orientation room in the temple of unitology. Now, for a long time, I looked at unitology as some of the bad guys in the game; they worshipped a monolith thats' very existence causes death and destruction at an unstoppable rate because it "spoke" to a now-deceased geophysicist in the same way it's giving you hallucinations of your dead girlfriend. This thing is causing you so much trouble and these people worshipped the d*mn thing. For a while, that made them the bad guy to me, they're praying before the cause of all this blood, murder, and chaos. But when I looked at the little orientation video, I realized the unitologists aren't evil, they're just misled. Hell, they weren't even misled, they just misinterpreted the Marker's message. They had good intentions, but the Marker didn't.

The video said: "One body, one mind, one soul." I realized they weren't evil when I really stopped and thought about what unitologists were following. They were following the Marker's message: One body, one mind, one soul. Convergance will cause this.
At first, that sounds great.It sounds like a poetic way to say that all people, everywhere, were coming together to live in peace. And end to discrimination, racsim, sexism, and bigotry in general. Personally, I would give a lot to see that happen.

Problem was, when the message read, "One body, one mind, one soul," that was EXACTLY what it meant. It meant that when Convergance occurred, all available bodies were going to be morphed together into a titanic frankenstein. One body all right, Altman be praised.

But the unitologists didn't know this, when they would read, "make us whole," they saw, "everybody just get along," in a message that actually was, "get squished up into a giant monster". I didn't find it right to label them as the bad guys when all they did was forget to read the fine print. Okay, they did screw over Isaac a couple of times, but they never really looked at Isaac as their enemy. In fact, you're praised almost as much as the Marker is in Dead Space 2, but that's another story.

Anyway. Pick someone you labeled as somebody you thought was the bad guy, then later realized that this person wasn't guilty of anything. Explain how you learned they weren't your enemy, and if/how your opinion of them changed.

The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.

the dark ones in metro 2033 if you read the book or get the so called good ending in the game they where only trying to help the humans

when the antagonist from Catherine explained why guys were dying in their sleep I was like 'omg you're totally right' Vincent's such a d-bag and deserves to die too.

Kessler from inFAMOUS.

Yeah, Kessler from inFamous really comes to mind:

Right up until the end I hated Kessler, never understood his angle or why he was toying with Cole and twisting his life.

Loghain in DA:O, he honestly did think he was doing the best thing for the kingdom, so if you succeed with the persuade challenge at the end, he realises he was wrong, and dies to save you :)

Your brother from Fable 3

Edit

Also Saren from Mass Effect for similar reasons.

Sorceress Edea in Final Fantasy VIII, who was at first presented in the game as the ultimate villain. Not only she wasn't evil, but for a short period you could have her fight along with your party. That happened because she was possessed by some demonic power, and somehow she was freed. I don't quite remember the details.

torno:
Title pretty much says it: Give me a person or group from a game that who you initially looked at as the bad guys, and either sooner or later, realized that they weren't evil at all. Maybe they have done a few things to get in your way, but they're not really your enemy.

I was playing Dead Space 2 and instead of trekking forward, I decided to stop at the orientation room in the temple of unitology. Now, for a long time, I looked at unitology as some of the bad guys in the game; they worshipped a monolith thats' very existence causes death and destruction at an unstoppable rate because it "spoke" to a now-deceased geophysicist in the same way it's giving you hallucinations of your dead girlfriend. This thing is causing you so much trouble and these people worshipped the d*mn thing. For a while, that made them the bad guy to me, they're praying before the cause of all this blood, murder, and chaos. But when I looked at the little orientation video, I realized the unitologists aren't evil, they're just misled. Hell, they weren't even misled, they just misinterpreted the Marker's message. They had good intentions, but the Marker didn't.

The video said: "One body, one mind, one soul." I realized they weren't evil when I really stopped and thought about what unitologists were following. They were following the Marker's message: One body, one mind, one soul. Convergance will cause this.
At first, that sounds great.It sounds like a poetic way to say that all people, everywhere, were coming together to live in peace. And end to discrimination, racsim, sexism, and bigotry in general. Personally, I would give a lot to see that happen.

Problem was, when the message read, "One body, one mind, one soul," that was EXACTLY what it meant. It meant that when Convergance occurred, all available bodies were going to be morphed together into a titanic frankenstein. One body all right, Altman be praised.

But the unitologists didn't know this, when they would read, "make us whole," they saw, "everybody just get along," in a message that actually was, "get squished up into a giant monster". I didn't find it right to label them as the bad guys when all they did was forget to read the fine print. Okay, they did screw over Isaac a couple of times, but they never really looked at Isaac as their enemy. In fact, you're praised almost as much as the Marker is in Dead Space 2, but that's another story.

Anyway. Pick someone you labeled as somebody you thought was the bad guy, then later realized that this person wasn't guilty of anything. Explain how you learned they weren't your enemy, and if/how your opinion of them changed.

Well, the Unitologists sort of threw me for a loop on some levels. See, having watched the "Dead Space" animated movie and followed the game, I wasn't 100% sure if the Marker was good or evil. Indeed through part of the game, and in a lot of the animated movie, it looked like a case where the marker was actually being used to imprison the Necromorphs, and it was people screwing around with recovering it that kind of let this threat out. I was thinking that since it seemed to keep the necromorphs out of it's immediate proximity in the tie in movie (which just turned out to be awful) that it was just kind of limited in whatg it could do at that point, being a stationary obelisk, and while it wouldn't care about sacrificing humans as need be towards it's purpose, it ultimatly was sort of the solution to the problem.

The Unitologists being presented as the bad guys or creepy, especially on "no known survivors" (the site) and such made me think that for once it was going to be the wierd cult that actually would wind up being your ally and having it's act together.

Needless to say my initial theories proved to be really wrong... Dead Space 2 made that about as clear as it can possibly be if there was any remaining doubt after the first game.

I've mentioned something to this tune not too long ago in another thread, odd to be discussing the same thing again so soon.

-

I think everyone can empathize with the bad guys at one point or another. I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head at the moment where I have, but believe it or not that's an intended part of the story sometimes... especially in the case of series where you have an honorable enemy trope in play or something similar.

In some cases it's a matter of bad writing as well, while I can't finger any specific examples, there have been a few cases where when watching a movie the "bad guy" is merely a ruthless guy doing some bad things to deal with an even worse situation, and the hero that intervenes does so out of a sense of morality with no real plan. Say, preventing some bad guy from sacrificing innocent people as part of a "kill a few to save a lot" mentality, because of a universal declaration that "killing innocent people is wrong", but without any better ideas. Especially if that even worse thing the bad guy wants to prevent happens, causing a dramatic situation with the hero needing to stop it, but in doing so there is like 10x more damage than the sacrifice of innocents or whatever would have prevented. I'm being generic, becaue I'm exhausted and my brain isn't working.... I have several examples of that kind of thing on the tip of my brain but I keep losing them before I can type them Ugh. In many cases though I don't think it's so much a problem of the bad guys really not being bad guys so much as the script writers not thinking things through and hoping the audience won't either. You know, hero prevents a human sacrifice intended to prevent a monster from appearing, as a result the monster appears, the hero fights and defeats the monster but not before two thirds of downtown tokyo is leveled with a deathtoll in the tens of thousands. If you put your brain in neutral that's a great movie, if you really think about it, who was a bigger idiot the priest guy who wanted to kill one person, or the hero who arguably just killed thousands for a moral principle that it was wrong to sacrifice one person to save a lot. Written properly a movie shoudn't have you thinking that stopping a human sacrifice was the wrong thing to do, yet similiar things have happened (to use a generic-type example since I'm spacing for some reason), but yet sometimes in cases like that I can't believe what I'm seeing and wind up cheering for the bad guy simply because he manages to come accross as being less of an idiot than the hero.

The Dark ones in Metro 2033 and the Empire in Skyrim.
Also Jim. I thought he was evil but now I have seen the light and know that he is our glorious savior.

In Starship Troopers, it was only after i watched it for the first time not as a kid, i realised that the humans were the aggressive militaristic douchebags and that the Bugs weren't the bad guys. Although while the films are (meant to be) satire i've heard the books are actually Pro-Military, which would make the humans the good guys.

The Empire in Skyrim were this way for me aswell.. i started off wanting to join the Stormcloaks (naturally, after the display at Helgan) however it turns out this is pretty much the only bad stuff the Empire does, seemingly only put there to trick the player into thinking the Stormcloaks are the good guys... By the time i got to Windhelm i was pretty disgusted with how the Stormcloaks behaved, so i turned around and went to Solitude to join the Empire.

Any Warhammer or 40k game would have you trust in the God Emperor and the Imperium of Man as its riteous guardians of all that is awesome and good.

Wrong.

Orks is best. If you lot fink uddawize I got a tad bit uh *pulls out shoota* persuasion fer ya.

hurr hurr hurr

x EvilErmine x:
Your brother from Fable 3

The game had to go and ruin it when you take over by saying that making people work so they would live was "Evil" but letting everyone run around in blissful ignorance to their doom was "Good" meaning you had to go with "Neutral-i-suppose?" funding the damn kingdom on your own if you didn't want become your brother/let everyone die.

Also I had thought the same about Saren, how he was just trying to impose some kind of damage limitation on the Reaper invasion.. Which is true but then i remembered him killing hundreds of people on that mission with Anderson 20 years ago and how he's pretty much always been a dick, indoctrination or not... So he's a Bad guy who does bad things.. but some of those bad things are for a good but ultimately misguided cause.

Azar Jahved and The Grandmaster of the Order in The Witcher. Through most of the game you are led to believe that Salamandra is a terrorist organization with complete evil purpose, most likely world domination shit. However, when you finally meet and converse with The Grandmaster, you learn that, while their methods are morally questionable, their goals are well intentioned.

The Professor was just an evil bastard through and through, though.

Letho in the second Witcher also comes to mind. He actually swayed me so much that I let him leave in peace on my playthrough. CD Projekt really has a way at making great antagonists.

Don Savik:
Any Warhammer or 40k game would have you trust in the God Emperor and the Imperium of Man as its riteous guardians of all that is awesome and good.

Wrong.

Orks is best. If you lot fink uddawize I got a tad bit uh *pulls out shoota* persuasion fer ya.

hurr hurr hurr

There is only one faction in the 40k universe that can be considered good, and it is impossible to argue against them as their methods of persuasion are incredibly effective.

Big Boss of the Metal Gear series.

I learned he wasn't the real "bad guy" with the prequel trilogy (Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops and Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker). Going back over the old games (Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake), all the evidence (or lack thereof) was there. The only reason I ever perceived Big Boss as a bad guy was because the United States government painted him as such and it wasn't until I got to play as him that I saw how much assholery he had to put up with. And, to grind salt into the wound, they were still assholes to him when he left the military and formed his own globetrotting mercenary group.

Eventually, he manages to create his own independent nation and, 21 years later, they send his cloned progeny to infiltrate his compound in South Africa and fuck shit up because they're afraid of the weapon of mass destruction he hasn't even finished constructing, their own WMDs notwithstanding. Then they act surprised when he escapes and creates another state in Asia, kidnaps a scientist who created algae that can produce cheap oil and holds the world's oil supply hostage because he's fed up with their bullshit. So, again, they send Solid Snake to infiltrate the fortress only this time he burns Big Boss to a crisp with an aerosol can and a cigarette lighter. But, instead of killing him, they keep what's left of his body in limbo between life and death, presumably because they get some kind of sick thrills out of it.

TL;DR He wasn't a bad guy at all.

3 legged goat:
The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.

yea I never got why people sided with the storm cloaks, they are a bunch of racists that want to kick the other races out of skyrim and ulfric just killed the king and hence claims the throne. The empire doesn't even like the group of elitist high elves they just use them to piss of the storm cloaks.

OT: I am normally in the middle of playing or watching something when I realize the 'bad guy' is actually the good guy, sometimes I realize straight away.

At the risk of opening a big can of worms here:

Just about every regular Joe German soldier in every WW2 shooter I've played.

Yeah, I went there.

Squilookle:
At the risk of opening a big can of worms here:

Just about every regular Joe German soldier in every WW2 shooter I've played.

Yeah, I went there.

Went where? To the the fact that most german soldiers weren't Nazis but normal scared human beings and that neither sides soldiers really wanted to fight? Well that is fairly common knowledge that only an idiot would try to refute.

hmmm... I never really considered the Unitologists as 'bad guys' in Dead Space - the few members you ever met were all completely insane and trying to kill you (understandable, considering there were necromorphs running around and the marker was driving them bonkers).
Hell, even the actual 'villains' of the games - the Necromorphs and Hans Tidemann respectively - weren't evil; the Necromorphs are just vicious beasts and nothing more, whilst Tidemann was trying desperately to get the Sprawl back under control from the Necromorph horde.

besides Dead Space... probably Final Fantasy XII, as it was a case of 'Grey and Grey' morality instead of the usual 'White and Pitch black insanely Evil' morality normally found in Final Fantasy games.

Also Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire - Team Magma and Team Aqua weren't as comically evil as the other groups (gods, I can't take Plasma seriously), and didn't try to hurt anyone directly; they just wanted to spread what they believed was the true cradle of life. Hell, when they finally achieve their goals and they realize it was a mistake, they try to correct it, accepting the fact that they bollocks'ed up.

Always.

Since no one has mentioned it already, I guess I'll throw the first stone: Illidan

Yes, Illidan always cared for power, he always wanted to be stronger and he wasn't above working demons, what's supposed to be his arch-nemesis (both as a demon hunter and as a Night Elf), to get it. However, he did truly want to help his people, he would let Sargeras remove his eyes and replace them with orbs of fire to get the power to save them. He's definitely in the gray area when it comes to morality but he ultimately wishes the best for his own people. That is, naturally, until they choose that he is either supposed to be locked and caged in a dark hole or dead. The Frozen Throne intro really says it all, he is called betrayer but he was in fact betrayed by his own people. And from there, he just slowly descended into madness until he was put out of his misery.

And since we're on the topic, I might as well just add Kael'thas. He was good, he did everything in his power to help a superior who absolutely hated him and his kin, and when that proved impossible and he had to accept other help to make sure he could establish safety for the very people who hated him, he was shunned and caged. He was a hero, but he was not treated as such. Then Illidan showed him a way, he gave him the ability to secure a future for his people, he was their savior. Again, that was ended when he received his almost-mortal wound by Arthas and turned to insanity, and Kael'thas took the exact same path as his supposed master and started making deals with demons in order to get more power.

TL;DR Both Illidan and Kael'thas were good guys who were turned to evil by the people they were trying to protect.

I'm just going to run through a mental list of all the games/franchises I own and decide if they really are evil or not.

Crash Bandicoot - Yep, Cortex is evil. But he's just a lackey for Uka Uka anyway, who is also evil.

Spyro the Dragon (original series) - Yep, every boss evil, save for possibly Gnasty Gnorc, who is simply trying to deal with the extreme racism shown to him and his entire species by the dragons. Yes, in the first Spyro game, you play a racist who wants to enact a 'Final Solution' against an entire species of creatures that are forced to live in a (ghetto) Wasteland.

Warhammer 40K Fire Warrior - Well, we're dealing with Chaos as the bad guys here, so yes, evil. The Imperial Guard and Space Marines aren't included here because they have a (admittedly fragile) truce with the Tau, and this only breaks (and is subsequently fixed) because of the Chaos presence.

Final Fantasy XII - Arguably, no, the villain isn't evil. Yes, he is an imperialistic douche, but the entire plan (and Venat's plan too) revolved around freeing humanity, viera, moogles, bangaa, etc. from the rule of a worse race of god-like creatures that were using these races throughout history for their own purposes. The expansion of the Arcadian Empire was just a side effect, albeit one that was pretty bad, though even then the Arcadian citizens seemed perfectly happy witht heir rule, and Vayne did at least make an effort to get his new subjects to like him, and tried to earn their respect...

Assassin's Creed - Depends on your worldview. I do side with the Assassins here, but the Templars do genuinely believe they're doing what's best for humanity as well, even if they are trying to get power themselves. I can't really see the Templars as evil, simply greedy and misguided, but also genuinely interested in the wellbeing of humanity, even if that wellbeing would be given through lies and deceit.

Alan Wake - It's the Dark Presence. And Mr Scratch. Yep, 100% pure evil. No questions.

Bioshock - Well, again, this depends on your worldview. Nobody, I'd say, is evil as such. Everyone simply has their own conflicting views, and instead of talking about them like reasonable people, they decide to start a civil war. This applies to Bioshock 2 as well, and the effect of said war on every character involved. Those who aren't involved are simply mentally disturbed, not evil, and the Splicers are all simply the survivng addicts of a pretty bad drug culture. No evil here, just political extremism and lack of self control.

Final Fantasy XIII - We can look at it two ways here. On the one hand, all the Fal'Cie want is to find a way of bringing back their own goddess, which any religious person would see as admirable. On the other hand, the plan does involve the deaths of millions of humans, the near extinction of the species, and the manipulation of humanity over hundreds if not thousands of years. I wouldn't really consider the Fal'Cie to be evil, as such, but they certainly push the boundaries.

Fallout 3 - The main villains here are the Enclave. I don't see them as being evil, again, it's simply political extremism on their part. They reckon the country has gone to pot and needs a strong uniting force to return it to what it once was, which again is rather admirable. They simply aren't the best way of doing so, and are too free and easy with using questionable methods and brute force to do so, and are a bit obsessed with gathering power for themselves. Not evil, just misguided extremists. As for slavers, raiders, and so on, they're just greedy murderous bastards, so if you consider real-life killers or slavers or pirates to be evil, then yes, they are in F3 too.

Gears of War - The entire series pretty much deals with this question as a whole, doesn't it? I'd argue the Locust, and later the Lambent, aren't evil. They're simply dealing with what they see as a threat to their survival and existence, i.e. humanity. The fact that humanity view these enemies in much the same way is the crux of the matter, and we are playing as humans so naturally we'll see things better from humanity's point of view. If the game had been released where you play as Locust, killing humans, we'd see the matter a lot differently. On that note, isn't there a Gears 3 DLC pack where you play a campaign as General RAAM? Or hasn't it been released yet?

Halo - Again, entire series here (including Halo Wars and Reach - shut up, I liked them both, and ODST, okay?), including the expanded universe (books, comics, anime, etc.). No, the Coveant aren't evil. Each individual race has it's own motives and reasons for being part of the Covenant, which would take a lot of time to tell (and so I won't talk about them here). Suffice to say, the closest to evil you'll get with them is the Prophets, and even they aren't evil. The race as a whole are simply decadent, hedonistic and lazy, but otherwise no harm and perfectly decent creatures. The Hierarchs (the three leaders) are pretty much just power hungry, with Truth being the most manipulative and smartest of the three, and the entire Covenant War is his fault anyway after he manipulated the new Brute Chieftan Tartarus to attack Harvest 27 years before the games - when the former Brute leader, Maccabus, was actually pushing for peaceful first contact and getting on well with these 'humans'. As for the Flood, they aren't evil either - they're simply genetically created by the Precursors as a weapon, and the Gravemind is simply trying to propogate the species - perfectly natural. Forerunners aren't evil, as the books show - yes, they fought a war with humanity, but not without justification, and on the whole were a very humanlike species anyway. Finally, the Precursors haven't been given enough background yet to make such a judgement (not until we see the rest of the Forerunner Trilogy, and Halo 4, yet...).

Tom Clancy's H.A.W.X. - Yes, I have this game. Yes, I enjoy it. No, I can't make a judgement, since I haven't yet completed it, and thus don't know enough about the main villain or villains yet.

Project Gotham Racing 4 - It's a racing game. There are no villains. Fool.

For the record, I also have the two main Kingdom Hearts games, but won't be judging those because quite frankly I've not got enough information. I haven't played any of the other games in the series yet save Chain of Memories, which I've never gotten very far in anyway. And these are simply the games I have for PS2 and Xbox 360. I do have more games, on PC and Nintendo DS, but I have too many to remember by heart, so I won't be adding any more to this here list. Sorry guys :P.

The Helghan in the Killzone franchise.

Not necessarily the 'good' guys but compared to the mess that was the I.S.A they were good enough for me.

I feel the ideal bad guy isn't evil for the sake of evil. One of my favorite villains is Kain from the Legacy of Kain series, more specifically in the Soul Reaver games.

Urgh76:

Always.

Sorry but Snape is evil. If Harry had not been the son of a woman that Snape had some sort of psychotic obsession over you think he would have lifted a finger to help him? I doubt it. Remember during Voldermorts first rise he willingly joined the death eaters and according to Rowling if Lily hadn't been killed by Voldemort Snape would have been a loyal Death eater to the end.

nuba km:

yea I never got why people sided with the storm cloaks, they are a bunch of racists that want to kick the other races out of skyrim and ulfric just killed the king and hence claims the throne. The empire doesn't even like the group of elitist high elves they just use them to piss of the storm cloaks.

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

thedo12:

nuba km:

yea I never got why people sided with the storm cloaks, they are a bunch of racists that want to kick the other races out of skyrim and ulfric just killed the king and hence claims the throne. The empire doesn't even like the group of elitist high elves they just use them to piss of the storm cloaks.

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

But until Ulfric started getting all pissy about it the ban on Talos worship wasn't enforced. It was an in name only ban that would have been lifted in a short time anyway after the empire had rebuilt its forces and invaded the Sommerset Isles.

thedo12:

nuba km:

yea I never got why people sided with the storm cloaks, they are a bunch of racists that want to kick the other races out of skyrim and ulfric just killed the king and hence claims the throne. The empire doesn't even like the group of elitist high elves they just use them to piss of the storm cloaks.

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

1. They can't lock contend of the game out to a player just because he isn't playing a certain race.

2. fair enough

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man.

Basically the empire is trying to stop the nords worshiping a man who nearly committed genocide as it is incredibly offensive to any elf. The only problem being is that they have to work with a group of elitist to accomplish this, which they don't like.

pffh:

thedo12:

nuba km:

yea I never got why people sided with the storm cloaks, they are a bunch of racists that want to kick the other races out of skyrim and ulfric just killed the king and hence claims the throne. The empire doesn't even like the group of elitist high elves they just use them to piss of the storm cloaks.

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

But until Ulfric started getting all pissy about it the ban on Talos worship wasn't enforced. It was an in name only ban that would have been lifted in a short time anyway after the empire had rebuilt its forces and invaded the Sommerset Isles.

Stormcloaks are still merely asserting their right to self determination for Skyrim. It's already been mentioned that how Ulfric took the throne was entirely within the law of Skyrim. As the legitimate ruler of the land he has every right to break away from the Empire, if he feels it is no longer in the interest of Skyrim.

I certainly didn't agree with everything the Stormcloaks stood for, but the Empire was trying to impose its will on a foreign land, even if that was at the behest of the Altmer.

Read: Iraq 2003 - America>Britain. I didn't support my government because on balance it was just acting at the behest of Bush. I certainly didn't support Saddam Hussein either, but that didn't make it right to invade.

Teyrn Loghain (Dragon Age: Origins), Saren (Mass Effect) and Queen Myrrah (Gears of War 3) did what they did because they think it was best for their followers. It turns out the character you play as got in the way of their plans. Loghain was unaware, Saren was brainwashed, Myrrah had no choice.

And the Covenant, most of them at least. The Prophets told the other Covenant races that killing the humans and activating the halo rings would trigger their ascension into some place resembling Heaven. The other Covenant races were lied to so it wasn't exactly their fault.

Bonus:
The case is completely different for the Agency in Crackdown. You think you're doing the right thing, taking out all these gangs for the the Agency and make the citizens safe. It turns out the Agency were the bad guys after all and now the citizens have their at most trust with them. I don't understand the ending completely, but the narrator guy did an evil laugh at the end so that's enough for me to be convinced he's evil.

x EvilErmine x:
Your brother from Fable 3

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he was still evil. Remember his monologue about how if he couldn't have the kingdom, nobody could, and he'd destroy it before he let it be ruled by somebody else? Although, I suppose it could have been an illusion on the part of Teresa to get you to go through with the revolution--I never trusted her since the ending of Fable 2 (she's way too similar to Kreia from KotOR 2 not to keep a close eye on her). Logan didn't seem half as insane when the revolution actually happened.

Aerosteam 1908:
Teyrn Loghain (Dragon Age: Origins), Saren (Mass Effect) and Queen Myrrah (Gears of War 3) did what they did because they think it was best for their followers. It turns out the character you play as got in the way of their plans. Loghain was unaware, Saren was brainwashed, Myrrah had no choice.

And the Covenant, most of them at least. The Prophets told the other Covenant races that killing the humans and activating the halo rings would trigger their ascension into some place resembling Heaven. The other Covenant races were lied to so it wasn't exactly their fault.

Bonus:
The case is completely different for the Agency in Crackdown. You think you're doing the right thing, taking out all these gangs for the the Agency and make the citizens safe. It turns out the Agency were the bad guys after all and now the citizens have their at most trust with them. I don't understand the ending completely, but the narrator guy did an evil laugh at the end so that's enough for me to be convinced he's evil.

The Agency had actually funded/created all the organizations you were destroying to make the public think they needed the Agency's absolute despotic control. So yes, Agency was the badguy all along. The people your killing are evil too - if anything, the PLAYER is the well intentioned villain, being the unknowing executioner for a despotic law enforcement organization

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