3 legged goat: The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.
Pretty much this. Stormcloaks winning would mean the end of the whole Empire.
OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.
In their main city in Skyrim? You mean Solitude? Because the only person I can think of who yelled about Talos was in Whiterun, which was the only neutral city.
-.- these mistakes don't make my argument seem very strong to they, I just considered it their main city because I spend so much time there, but my point still stands if a city that is able to remain neutral with a man worshiping talos so openly in their town center and promoting other people to do the same they can't be taking their ban on talos seriously at all.
If the Empire had their way, it wouldn't be neutral at all (that's not a condemnation, by the way). It wasn't like they were letting them stay neutral out of kindness, it was because they didn't want to piss Bulgruuf off enough to make him turn to the Stormcloaks. Given that they don't actually WANT to ban Talos worship, that's how they can get the Thalmor to not force them to attack immediately.
I'm not saying that the Empire is bad, they're in a really tough place with the Thalmor. They didn't want to ban Talos, but they had to to survive. However, just because their bad acts are coming from an understandable place doesn't make their bad acts good.
pffh: I am? Where did I say that? I'm siding with the imperials since a united empire is the worlds only hope against the Thalmor.
Long Live the Empire!!
OT: Caesar's Legion, from Fallout: New Vegas. They are ultimately the only hope for that region of the world....to ensure survival for the human race.
How so? I mean, I really don't see how they're any better than House or NCR. Hell, as I see it, it's a three-way fight between 2 shades of gray and 1 much darker shade of gray.
That's a topic of some debate, though. Heinlein himself was very left-wing, so the prospect of him writing a non-satirical book praising fascism is just kind of weird. I'd say that it was misinterpreted by right-wingers, which was misinterpreted by left-wingers again. Welcome to the glorious world of politics.
I wouldn't say "weren't actually evil" since the things they did were horrible and unforgivable, even though in their heads it may have seemed like the right choice.
Bioshock: Ryan and Lamb both believed with all their hearts in ideals that sounded beautiful on paper. However, the practice and method of those ideals was completely evil. Examples of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
Nooh: Since no one has mentioned it already, I guess I'll throw the first stone: Illidan
Yes, Illidan always cared for power, he always wanted to be stronger and he wasn't above working demons, what's supposed to be his arch-nemesis (both as a demon hunter and as a Night Elf), to get it. However, he did truly want to help his people, he would let Sargeras remove his eyes and replace them with orbs of fire to get the power to save them. He's definitely in the gray area when it comes to morality but he ultimately wishes the best for his own people. That is, naturally, until they choose that he is either supposed to be locked and caged in a dark hole or dead. The Frozen Throne intro really says it all, he is called betrayer but he was in fact betrayed by his own people. And from there, he just slowly descended into madness until he was put out of his misery.
++ Illidan has to be one of my favorites. I'm a little sad that we had to kill him.
I'd say one character that really emphasizes this trait is Ashur from the Fallout 3 DLC The Pitt.
Spoiler: Click to 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
The situation presented in that plot arch was one of the first ones that really struck me with seemingly undecidable decision, and even though the DLC itself wasn't the greatest, Bethesda really made a great moral conflict.
Not sure. None are coming to mind. Though, I guess I'll chime in on the Emipre/Stormcloaks discussion.
If you're not a Nord, then all you have to do is hate the empire for validation. Or, if you're one of the Elves affected, you can always use the Stormcloak rebellion to weaken the Empire, so that you can finish what was put on hold by the White-Gold Concordant. If you're an Imperial...I guess you're just mad at the Empire? And, if you're Argonian or Khajit, then you can side with the Stormcloaks to hope the Elves and the Empire kill each other off.
Though, if you're happy with kowtowing to the just-as-racist-as-the-Nords Thalmor, and only desire to lick their boots until every last boot is clean, then by all means, side with the Empire.
The Empire there isn't evil or malevolent, it's just pathetic. Ulfric Stormcloak was right to want to kick them out, and regain control of Skyrim. Would it be better if he wasn't racist as an old white man living four hours from any major city on a farm? Yes, yes it would. But, it would also make it less interesting.
Bioshock: Ryan and Lamb both believed with all their hearts in ideals that sounded beautiful on paper. However, the practice and method of those ideals was completely evil. Examples of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
Hell, for Ryan, most of his arc was watching him slowly lose those morals without realizing it, like when he (i.e, the government) took over Fontaine Futuristics just because. That's what made him so interesting to me.
Though, if you're happy with kowtowing to the just-as-racist-as-the-Nords Thalmor, and only desire to lick their boots until every last boot is clean, then by all means, side with the Empire.
I agree with everything you said, except for one thing: the Thalmor are not as racist as the nords, they are WAAAAAAAAAY more racist. After all, the Nords just want every non-nord out of Skyrim (and those are only the really hard-line, racist ones. Most make the distinction between the Thalmor and other elves). The Thalmor, on the other hand, want to not just kill every non-Altmer, they want to make it as if they never existed. There's a reason people call them Elven Nazis.
Damn it! I miss the days when things were simple. You had your good guys and your bad guys and that was it, or in the case of video games, you were the good guys they were the bad guys, you had to beat them up. There was none of this wishy washy "he was just misguided" crap.
At first, he's a mercenary, so he's suspecious off the bat. Then, he turns out to be a nice guy. Until, of course, he reveals to be aligned with the bad guys. Then, he turns evil on you and tries to kill you. Later, however, you find out that he's not really evil, and also, Lloyd's father.
Bioshock: Ryan and Lamb both believed with all their hearts in ideals that sounded beautiful on paper. However, the practice and method of those ideals was completely evil. Examples of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
Hell, for Ryan, most of his arc was watching him slowly lose those morals without realizing it, like when he (i.e, the government) took over Fontaine Futuristics just because. That's what made him so interesting to me.
Though, if you're happy with kowtowing to the just-as-racist-as-the-Nords Thalmor, and only desire to lick their boots until every last boot is clean, then by all means, side with the Empire.
I agree with everything you said, except for one thing: the Thalmor are not as racist as the nords, they are WAAAAAAAAAY more racist. After all, the Nords just want every non-nord out of Skyrim (and those are only the really hard-line, racist ones. Most make the distinction between the Thalmor and other elves). The Thalmor, on the other hand, want to not just kill every non-Altmer, they want to make it as if they never existed. There's a reason people call them Elven Nazis.
I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.
Satan: I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and was always taught that Satan was the worst kind of evil. After growing up and shedding my childhood religion I began thinking about it more and more. I basically came up with this-
Satan and Lucifer are basically symbols for Individuality and freedom. God wants you to be humble so he can control you and he wants you to worship him and thank him for creation (which isn't all its cracked up to be especially considering AIDS and Malaria). God wants you to be reliant on him and Satan wants you to be reliant on yourself.
In a re-reading of biblical stories I've come to the conclusion that Satan is a hero for humanity and serves as a role model to us so that we might 'kill God" and become God ourselves, therefore creating our own meaning and values.
Bioshock: Ryan and Lamb both believed with all their hearts in ideals that sounded beautiful on paper. However, the practice and method of those ideals was completely evil. Examples of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
Hell, for Ryan, most of his arc was watching him slowly lose those morals without realizing it, like when he (i.e, the government) took over Fontaine Futuristics just because. That's what made him so interesting to me.
Though, if you're happy with kowtowing to the just-as-racist-as-the-Nords Thalmor, and only desire to lick their boots until every last boot is clean, then by all means, side with the Empire.
I agree with everything you said, except for one thing: the Thalmor are not as racist as the nords, they are WAAAAAAAAAY more racist. After all, the Nords just want every non-nord out of Skyrim (and those are only the really hard-line, racist ones. Most make the distinction between the Thalmor and other elves). The Thalmor, on the other hand, want to not just kill every non-Altmer, they want to make it as if they never existed. There's a reason people call them Elven Nazis.
I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.
Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.
That's a topic of some debate, though. Heinlein himself was very left-wing, so the prospect of him writing a non-satirical book praising fascism is just kind of weird. I'd say that it was misinterpreted by right-wingers, which was misinterpreted by left-wingers again. Welcome to the glorious world of politics.
Like i said, i'm only going on what i've heard given i haven't actually read the books, nor do i claim to know much about the mans politics. My knowledge can pretty much be summed up to the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers#Controversy
I suppose it comes down to how different people interpret things. You could put half of those those same arguments to any number of things, from Call of Duty or Mass Effect or GTA or pretty much anything with a gun in it.
I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.
Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.
This is true, but as long as the Thalmor hold the Empire tightly by the leash, it's not exactly going to be effective against fighting them. (Mind, this might be undone to an extent through the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'm not sure of how much of an effect that will have.) I'd say the best bet is to draw the Thalmor out along too many fronts, taxing resources and soldiers. Skyrim just centers around a small portion of this conflict, and in doing so makes us think one side or the other is the "big bad", but really both sides stand on almost the same ground, while the real enemy is within the borders, patrolling, throwing lavish, restricted parties, and being pompous up until the point where I bash their skulls in with a demonic mace.
I agree, though it seems that it's the topic that's never brought up. All that's ever discussed is the Nordic racism, not the Elven. The Thalmor and their xenocidal tendencies can suck it, I say. Any way I can deal them a blow, then I do so.
Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.
This is true, but as long as the Thalmor hold the Empire tightly by the leash, it's not exactly going to be effective against fighting them. (Mind, this might be undone to an extent through the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'm not sure of how much of an effect that will have.) I'd say the best bet is to draw the Thalmor out along too many fronts, taxing resources and soldiers. Skyrim just centers around a small portion of this conflict, and in doing so makes us think one side or the other is the "big bad", but really both sides stand on almost the same ground, while the real enemy is within the borders, patrolling, throwing lavish, restricted parties, and being pompous up until the point where I bash their skulls in with a demonic mace.
To be fair, I'm glad that the Thalmor are not the big bads of this particular story, because they clearly are evil, there's no ambiguity, whereas I think the ambiguity is the most interesting part of Skyrim's story. Meanwhile, setting up the Thalmor for either DLC (on the scale of Shivering Isles, mind you) or the next game.
It's true that, as you say, the Thalmor hold the Empire on a tight leash, but that doesn't mean they can't rebel. I can easily see a sort of Cyrodiilic version of the Stormcloaks rising. Hell, for that matter, (and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked in a while), but I believe that the remainder of the empire is made up of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell. Even if you take the Nords out, that's still Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards, likely a significant amount more of them than made up the actual Stormcloaks. Sure, it would take a while to get enough people to really fight, but 4 provinces is way better than 1. Helping the Thalmor now means their doom later.
3 legged goat: The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.
How was the Empire made out to be evil? They never seemed evil to me... At all...
Clive Howlitzer: I feel the ideal bad guy isn't evil for the sake of evil. One of my favorite villains is Kain from the Legacy of Kain series, more specifically in the Soul Reaver games.
Kain is the villain? I thought he was the main character... (I only played 2 of the Legacy of Cain series, starting with Blood Omen 2...)
Avatar Roku: Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor. Help the Imperials and the Thalmor keep their puppet but the Empire itself is strengthened for the inevitable war between them and the Thalmor. Help the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor lose their foothold in Skyrim (who may become strong enough to fight the Thalmor themselves), but the Empire, which would arguably be a stronger enemy for the Thalmor, is weakened, and that's assuming that the few other provinces don't also secede.
This is true, but as long as the Thalmor hold the Empire tightly by the leash, it's not exactly going to be effective against fighting them. (Mind, this might be undone to an extent through the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'm not sure of how much of an effect that will have.) I'd say the best bet is to draw the Thalmor out along too many fronts, taxing resources and soldiers. Skyrim just centers around a small portion of this conflict, and in doing so makes us think one side or the other is the "big bad", but really both sides stand on almost the same ground, while the real enemy is within the borders, patrolling, throwing lavish, restricted parties, and being pompous up until the point where I bash their skulls in with a demonic mace.
To be fair, I'm glad that the Thalmor are not the big bads of this particular story, because they clearly are evil, there's no ambiguity, whereas I think the ambiguity is the most interesting part of Skyrim's story. Meanwhile, setting up the Thalmor for either DLC (on the scale of Shivering Isles, mind you) or the next game.
It's true that, as you say, the Thalmor hold the Empire on a tight leash, but that doesn't mean they can't rebel. I can easily see a sort of Cyrodiilic version of the Stormcloaks rising. Hell, for that matter, (and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked in a while), but I believe that the remainder of the empire is made up of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell. Even if you take the Nords out, that's still Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards, likely a significant amount more of them than made up the actual Stormcloaks. Sure, it would take a while to get enough people to really fight, but 4 provinces is way better than 1. Helping the Thalmor now means their doom later.
Well, in the dialogue somewhere, they were referencing either High Rock or Hammerfell, and saying how anti-imperial sentiment was mounting there as it is in Skyrim. And, if Ulfric is to be believed, many of the warriors who died fighting in the war with the elves were Nords, so they're either weakened now, or there's just that damn many of them.
But, unless the Empire (and the new emperor) take some pretty strong steps, it's gonna start fracturing. The Dominion wants it to remain as it is, because it grants them diplomatic powers and strongholds in the other regions. But, if they lose those (and you can bet the Stormcloaks would raid the hell out of the Embassy), then it would require acquiring a beachhead or ingress through land in order to truly attack them. Either way, the theater of war that they're establishing is a very interesting one. The dynamics at play have multiple motives and directions, and enormous, world shaping consequences are on every side. It's exciting.
If you haven't had the pleasure of playing the game please do not read this.PHA+SGUgbmV2ZXIgcmVhbGx5IGRvZXMgYW55dGhpbmcgaW5oZXJlbnRseSBldmlsLCBoZSdzIGp1c3QgYW5ncnkgYW5kIHRvIGJlIGhvbmVzdCB3aG8gY2FuIGJsYW1lIGhpbSwgaGlzIHBlb3BsZSB3ZXJlIHBlYWNlZnVsIGFuZCB0aGUgQ2FlbG9uZGlhbnMgc3RpbGwgd2VudCBhbmQgYnVpbHQgYSB3ZWFwb24gdG8ga2lsbCB0aGVtIGFsbC48L3A+
That's a topic of some debate, though. Heinlein himself was very left-wing, so the prospect of him writing a non-satirical book praising fascism is just kind of weird. I'd say that it was misinterpreted by right-wingers, which was misinterpreted by left-wingers again. Welcome to the glorious world of politics.
Heinlein was moderately left wing, but he was extremely pro-military. The book was essentially his manifesto on what the ideal modern military should be- non-compulsory, though offering massive benefits to those who enlist, well trained, well equipped, only deployed when necessary, and valuing the life of its soldiers above all else.
This is true, but as long as the Thalmor hold the Empire tightly by the leash, it's not exactly going to be effective against fighting them. (Mind, this might be undone to an extent through the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'm not sure of how much of an effect that will have.) I'd say the best bet is to draw the Thalmor out along too many fronts, taxing resources and soldiers. Skyrim just centers around a small portion of this conflict, and in doing so makes us think one side or the other is the "big bad", but really both sides stand on almost the same ground, while the real enemy is within the borders, patrolling, throwing lavish, restricted parties, and being pompous up until the point where I bash their skulls in with a demonic mace.
To be fair, I'm glad that the Thalmor are not the big bads of this particular story, because they clearly are evil, there's no ambiguity, whereas I think the ambiguity is the most interesting part of Skyrim's story. Meanwhile, setting up the Thalmor for either DLC (on the scale of Shivering Isles, mind you) or the next game.
It's true that, as you say, the Thalmor hold the Empire on a tight leash, but that doesn't mean they can't rebel. I can easily see a sort of Cyrodiilic version of the Stormcloaks rising. Hell, for that matter, (and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked in a while), but I believe that the remainder of the empire is made up of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell. Even if you take the Nords out, that's still Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards, likely a significant amount more of them than made up the actual Stormcloaks. Sure, it would take a while to get enough people to really fight, but 4 provinces is way better than 1. Helping the Thalmor now means their doom later.
Well, in the dialogue somewhere, they were referencing either High Rock or Hammerfell, and saying how anti-imperial sentiment was mounting there as it is in Skyrim. And, if Ulfric is to be believed, many of the warriors who died fighting in the war with the elves were Nords, so they're either weakened now, or there's just that damn many of them.
But, unless the Empire (and the new emperor) take some pretty strong steps, it's gonna start fracturing. The Dominion wants it to remain as it is, because it grants them diplomatic powers and strongholds in the other regions. But, if they lose those (and you can bet the Stormcloaks would raid the hell out of the Embassy), then it would require acquiring a beachhead or ingress through land in order to truly attack them. Either way, the theater of war that they're establishing is a very interesting one. The dynamics at play have multiple motives and directions, and enormous, world shaping consequences are on every side. It's exciting.
I agree. I never really gave Bethesda much credit when it came to crafting their stories, but this is fantastic. I just with the Thalmor had a bit more of a role; they're a great addition if you are looking for them, but they're kinda too subtle if you aren't.
If you haven't had the pleasure of playing the game please do not read this.PHA+SGUgbmV2ZXIgcmVhbGx5IGRvZXMgYW55dGhpbmcgaW5oZXJlbnRseSBldmlsLCBoZSdzIGp1c3QgYW5ncnkgYW5kIHRvIGJlIGhvbmVzdCB3aG8gY2FuIGJsYW1lIGhpbSwgaGlzIHBlb3BsZSB3ZXJlIHBlYWNlZnVsIGFuZCB0aGUgQ2FlbG9uZGlhbnMgc3RpbGwgd2VudCBhbmQgYnVpbHQgYSB3ZWFwb24gdG8ga2lsbCB0aGVtIGFsbC48L3A+
Spoiler: Click to 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
I would have to say Saren from mass effect. throughout the whole game you're led to believe he is the bad guy in all of it then in the end you find out he wasn't even in full control of himself.
liquidsolid: Satan: I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and was always taught that Satan was the worst kind of evil. After growing up and shedding my childhood religion I began thinking about it more and more. I basically came up with this-
Satan and Lucifer are basically symbols for Individuality and freedom. God wants you to be humble so he can control you and he wants you to worship him and thank him for creation (which isn't all its cracked up to be especially considering AIDS and Malaria). God wants you to be reliant on him and Satan wants you to be reliant on yourself.
In a re-reading of biblical stories I've come to the conclusion that Satan is a hero for humanity and serves as a role model to us so that we might 'kill God" and become God ourselves, therefore creating our own meaning and values.
Oh, you will probably loveDemon: the Fallen in that case. It is pretty much this all the way - Lucifer, and all who followed him, rebelled against scumbag God for humanity's sake.
Just a tip, if you ever decide to go into tabletop RPGs.
wicked_dementia: I would have to say Saren from mass effect. throughout the whole game you're led to believe he is the bad guy in all of it then in the end you find out he wasn't even in full control of himself.
Even better, he went in with the best of intentions: establishing a need for organics among the Reapers. The kicker? As we found out in ME2, that would have worked. Granted, the Collectors' fate is hardly ideal, but still.
Endersgate1321: Lets see if anyone can get this reference the formics were actually good while the humans were the ones who actually commited genocide
True, though the humans had no way of knowing and had every reason to believe the Buggers were still hostile. Plus, the way Ender ended up being blamed as if the xenocide was intentional was bullshit.
Spoiler: Click to ViewPHA+YWxsIHRoZXkgd2FudCBpcyB0byBwcm90ZWN0IFlldWwgKENhaXVzKSBvciBLYWlyaSAoUmlrdSk8L3A+
Not sure I agree about Riku, at least in the first game. That's more of an instance of "doing bad things with good intentions" (the road to hell, and all...) which I don't think is exactly the same thing.
3 legged goat: The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.
I caught onto that pretty fast, and even went with the Empire soldier at the start. I realized I had just run into a bad run of luck and they were paranoid. Something seemed very off to me, with Ulfric and I have never immediately taken a dislike to such an unsuspecting dude, but something went off in my head like 'you are the bigger of two evils aren't you...'.
I was so glad when my suspisions about the rebellion were proven correct. I'm a smug bitch that way.
The Thalmor though obviously, are the supreme jerks of Skyrim. No debating that anywhere.
Damn I can't think of anything to contribute, so I will share some thoughts on the whole Stormcloaks/Empire thing people keep bringing up.
K, so, you've got the people who were about to put you to death just for being in the wrong spot, have banned Talos worship, and answer to the Thalmor. But they are (supposedly) biding their time to get more powerful to fight off the Thalmor (or something)
on the other side, you've got a bunch of racists who are causing lots of trouble, attempted to use a possible end of the world as leverage in an argument, with a leader who may or may not be unconsciously working for the Thalmor. But they are trying to liberate skyrim from the Thalmor oppression, and lift the Ban on Talos worship.
My thoughts have been this: Why can't I take a third option? Never mind the fact that I have hit the singularity and have the ability to kill anything by so much as brushing against it, enough people owe me favors that I could raise my own small army. Also: best buds with a dragon.
So, all I need to do is just take over the world and all will be good.
Or go the psychotic rout and systematically kill everything that will stay dead in all of skyrim.
3 legged goat: The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.
-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.
-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.
-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.
Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.
But until Ulfric started getting all pissy about it the ban on Talos worship wasn't enforced. It was an in name only ban that would have been lifted in a short time anyway after the empire had rebuilt its forces and invaded the Sommerset Isles.
Stormcloaks are still merely asserting their right to self determination for Skyrim. It's already been mentioned that how Ulfric took the throne was entirely within the law of Skyrim. As the legitimate ruler of the land he has every right to break away from the Empire, if he feels it is no longer in the interest of Skyrim.
I certainly didn't agree with everything the Stormcloaks stood for, but the Empire was trying to impose its will on a foreign land, even if that was at the behest of the Altmer.
Read: Iraq 2003 - America>Britain. I didn't support my government because on balance it was just acting at the behest of Bush. I certainly didn't support Saddam Hussein either, but that didn't make it right to invade.
as skyrim is my first elderscrolls game and so I don't know all the lore but in my opinion the whole thing is one big grey area yea the stormcloaks are jerks but apart from name calling there is not much rascium I mean no one is getting lynched.. I liken the stormcloaks to the guy in school who wears punk clothing but doesnt really do anything
the emperals are a bunch of self entitled jerks and incompatant but they mean well
as far as im concerned the thalmor are the real villain and go out of my way to kill them and place their naked bodys in silly positions >:D
Pretty much this. Stormcloaks winning would mean the end of the whole Empire.