Bad guys you quickly/later realized weren't actually evil.

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pffh:

Urgh76:

Always.

Sorry but Snape is evil. If Harry had not been the son of a woman that Snape had some sort of psychotic obsession over you think he would have lifted a finger to help him? I doubt it. Remember during Voldermorts first rise he willingly joined the death eaters and according to Rowling if Lily hadn't been killed by Voldemort Snape would have been a loyal Death eater to the end.

Yes but you must realize. J.K. Rowling is TERRIBLE author. A good story teller, but terrible author. Snape would of been a MUCH more interesting character if he was a 'good guy' the entire time. (since you know Dumbledore was a god seer anyways) it should of been planned that Snape kills him, then feeds the order of the ph... wait that order was 'disbanded' never mind. Fucking useless plot device from the 5th book.

While about 1% of you people [and the 1% of people who will actually read this comment instead of just the first page] will understand this reference, but the Dark Ones from the Night Watch series. Just because someone is dark, doesn't mean they are evil. someone who is light can do evil things and someone who is dark can do good things.

Oh Dib from Invader Zim. He's technically the good guy!

Peaco:
I'd say one character that really emphasizes this trait is Ashur from the Fallout 3 DLC The Pitt.

The situation presented in that plot arch was one of the first ones that really struck me with seemingly undecidable decision, and even though the DLC itself wasn't the greatest, Bethesda really made a great moral conflict.

indeed, i hate how they labelled the one way with bad karma and the other with good despite you... well you know

nuba km:

Avatar Roku:

nuba km:

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

In their main city in Skyrim? You mean Solitude? Because the only person I can think of who yelled about Talos was in Whiterun, which was the only neutral city.

-.- these mistakes don't make my argument seem very strong to they.

Yea RPG lore is a pain in the ass to learn

im still confused on how the Elder scrolls afterlife works

Such as nords normaly go to sovongard
but if the darkbrotherhood is contracted to kill them they serve sithis in the void.
so sithis> Aedra
Now anyone that is a wherewolf belongs to the dadric lord Hircine in the afterlife
dadric lord> Aedra
so if your a werewolf that is killed on a dark brotherhood contract what happens to your soul?
dose a void trump a Dadric lord? or do they just ro-sham-bo for your soul

-Only exceptional Nords go to Sovengard, which is ruled by Lorkhan.
-DB contract kills go to Sithis, who is Lorkhan.
-Werewolfs go to Hiricane's hunting grounds.
-Daedra Worships MAY go to the realms of the Lord they worship if the Daedra take them.
-Everyone else goes into the dreemesleave, gets their soul washed clean of memories, and sent back to earth in a new body.

SajuukKhar:
-Only exceptional Nords go to Sovengard, which is ruled by Lorkhan.
-DB contract kills go to Sithis, who is Lorkhan.
-Werewolfs go to Hiricane's hunting grounds.
-Daedra Worships MAY go to the realms of the Lord they worship if the Daedra take them.
-Everyone else goes into the dreemesleave, gets their soul washed clean of memories, and sent back to earth in a new body.

Lorkhan is sithis?
i thought Lorkhan was a Aedra(a dead one at that)
as sithis was around before the Aedra i don't see how they can be the same entity unless i missed something.

direkiller:

Lorkhan is sithis?
i thought Lorkhan was a Aedra(a dead one at that)
as sithis was around before the Aedra i don't see how they can be the same entity unless i missed something.

Lorkhan is not an Aedra, he is a spirit.

Secondly according to several books, and later confirmed by Bethesda, in the beginning time there was Anu and Padomey, the primal forces of stasis and change, their intermingling created the grey-maybe were nirn, and oblivion exist.

Anu and Padomey are forces not beings, but they became manifest as beings, called thier souls. Anu's manifestation was Anuiel, and Padomey's was Sithis.

It was said that Anuiel and Sitihis created their own souls manifest also. Anuiel's was akatosh, and Sithis's was Lorkhan

Padomey = Sithis = Lorkhan

Anu = Anuiel = Akatosh

Also in the deepscorn hollow plug-in for Oblivion there is a statue of Sithis, this statue has a hole in his chest were his heart would be, exactly like Lorkhan who had his heart take from him.

The Enclave in Fallout 3. Seriously, why did I even need to fight these guys? Their only goal throughout the game was to fix the water purifier I wanted to fix, and to kill Super Mutants and ghouls(feral as well as non-feral, but that's kind of par the course for most people in Fallout).

They weren't even going to put the FEV virus in. Colonel Autumn flat out says that he's not really following Eden anymore, and they didn't so much kill your dad as they did inspire him to commit suicide for no real reason. Having to wipe out their bases in Broken Steel just felt really...arbitrary.

nuba km:
OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

The guy shouting can get away with it because Whiterun isnt an imperial city, it is neither. Solitude is the primary Imperial city and they removed the shrine from the Temple of the Divines so people could no worship him. The war started for several reasons, the stormcloaks wanted to be seperate from the empire, and also Talos was thier MAIN god, all of the other gods were not as important to them but they literally had worship of their most important god banned at the say so of the elves.

Also..the Stormcloaks are rascist? The Imperials sided with the Thalmor, who actively hate EVERYONE but them, the stormcloaks simply dislike but tolerate other races since it is their native land. The thalmor literally believe NOBODY else is worthy to go to the afterlife with them and that they are the only worthy ones.

Doom-Slayer:

nuba km:
OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

The guy shouting can get away with it because Whiterun isnt an imperial city, it is neither. Solitude is the primary Imperial city and they removed the shrine from the Temple of the Divines so people could no worship him. The war started for several reasons, the stormcloaks wanted to be seperate from the empire, and also Talos was thier MAIN god, all of the other gods were not as important to them but they literally had worship of their most important god banned at the say so of the elves.

Also..the Stormcloaks are rascist? The Imperials sided with the Thalmor, who actively hate EVERYONE but them, the stormcloaks simply dislike but tolerate other races since it is their native land. The thalmor literally believe NOBODY else is worthy to go to the afterlife with them and that they are the only worthy ones.

He still gets away with it if you side with The empire.

Beucase the white gold concordant was only activly enforced since the civil war started.

PureIrony:
The Enclave in Fallout 3. Seriously, why did I even need to fight these guys? Their only goal throughout the game was to fix the water purifier I wanted to fix, and to kill Super Mutants and ghouls(feral as well as non-feral, but that's kind of par the course for most people in Fallout).

They weren't even going to put the FEV virus in. Colonel Autumn flat out says that he's not really following Eden anymore, and they didn't so much kill your dad as they did inspire him to commit suicide for no real reason. Having to wipe out their bases in Broken Steel just felt really...arbitrary.

In the defense of the Enclave killers, the Enclave were trying going to use the purifier as a bartering chip to strengthen their hold on the wasteland's populace. They were also shooting you on sight. I don't feel particularly guilty about fighting them.

CJ and his gang from Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. When I initially played San Andreas, I saw Carl and co. as nothing more than typical thugs, but my personal investigation into urban poverty, criminal psychology, and crime statistics really put them in a new light. One more befitting a victim reacting to circumstances.

Most of the other Grand Theft Auto characters are still villains, though. Especially Niko and the gangsters who came after him.

Kerrigan from Starcraft II though that seemed like a cop out on Blizzards part. While the whole "she was mind-controlled" excuse might fly in the original, Brood War kinda nixed that. In the Protoss campaign, she came off as a psycho, manipulative killer. Now she is one of the good guys who isn't trying to devour the universe.

Raistlin from original Dragonlance. He was less not actually evil, and more not fully subservient to evil i.e helping vanquish a world conquering evil because he refuse to be anyone's servant. It was interesting in later books that he was one of few villains who only wanted to rule the world and wouldn't destroy it if he couldn't.

Shanicus:
hmmm... I never really considered the Unitologists as 'bad guys' in Dead Space - the few members you ever met were all completely insane and trying to kill you (understandable, considering there were necromorphs running around and the marker was driving them bonkers).
Hell, even the actual 'villains' of the games - the Necromorphs and Hans Tidemann respectively - weren't evil; the Necromorphs are just vicious beasts and nothing more, whilst Tidemann was trying desperately to get the Sprawl back under control from the Necromorph horde.

Ah, you're right, I should've put Tiedemann in there.
Come to think of it, he never really expresses any hostility toward Isaac, and at some points, he almost seems to be regretful that needs to try to kill him.

I found this on the Dead Space Wiki, and it sums up what I was going to say pretty well.

"At times, Tiedemann seems genuinely sorry for his need to combat Isaac, apologizing to Clarke regularly and even remarking that Isaac's resourcefulness and determination would be admirable "in more favorable circumstances". Eventually, this empathy progressively wanes as Tiedemann becomes more frustrated, and finally morphs into violent anger as Isaac allows the Necromorphs to breach the Government sector, butchering his men and allowing them to reach the Marker."

Tiedemann also stayed behind on the Sprawl while the rest of it's citizens evacuated instead of just evacuating with them, and I find that pretty admirable.

Alduin.

His destruction of the world is necessary, and beneficial.

Goofguy:

Charli:
snip
"I love the Imperial Legion"
snip

Did you not find yourself having a conflict of interest when you got to the climax of the Dark Brotherhood questline, though?

I purposefully made another character to do the DarkBrotherhood Quest line since yes, my overly moralistic main character wouldn't do it.

I killed her off since that's what my character would have done. Bit of role playing faggotry I know.

"You kiddnapped me in the middle of the night and then want me to kill one(or all) of three people I don't know? ...Lady you die now."

I know it's not strictly games but oh lord does Lelouch from Code Geass fit the bill.

um, basically any boss from metal gear solid with a few exceptions (the bomber dude in mgs2... thats all i can think of).
if you didn't feel bad after killing sniper wolf then your an ass.
mgs3 was set up to make you feel bad about killing the boss.
hell most of the mgs3 guys were left overs from a time period when the Russians were not enemies so its not like they would resist when the boss tells them to fight for them.
everyone in foxhound they for the most part just want to survive, phyco mantis maybe not so much but you have to admit its pretty sad when he does something to help you and says he finally felt good about something he did.
The description of most of the mgs4 bosses is "victims of warcrimes transformed into cybernetic killing machines.
hell the main theme of the series is that they were made into the perfect soldiers and then everyone realizes they didn't want perfect soldiers.

SajuukKhar:

direkiller:

Lorkhan is sithis?
i thought Lorkhan was a Aedra(a dead one at that)
as sithis was around before the Aedra i don't see how they can be the same entity unless i missed something.

Lorkhan is not an Aedra, he is a spirit.

Secondly according to several books, and later confirmed by Bethesda, in the beginning time there was Anu and Padomey, the primal forces of stasis and change, their intermingling created the grey-maybe were nirn, and oblivion exist.

Anu and Padomey are forces not beings, but they became manifest as beings, called thier souls. Anu's manifestation was Anuiel, and Padomey's was Sithis.

It was said that Anuiel and Sitihis created their own souls manifest also. Anuiel's was akatosh, and Sithis's was Lorkhan

Padomey = Sithis = Lorkhan

Anu = Anuiel = Akatosh

Also in the deepscorn hollow plug-in for Oblivion there is a statue of Sithis, this statue has a hole in his chest were his heart would be, exactly like Lorkhan who had his heart take from him.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Lorkhan
both kina right and wrong at the same time from the looks of it

"Lorkhan is one of the divine Aedra, and the one most directly responsible for the existence of Nirn. According to legend, Lorkhan died long ago, giving his life to create Nirn. As such, he has not had much direct influence over events of the Third Era, though he was indirectly responsible for at least three major near-disasters in the last decades of the Third Era, and his remains are connected to the disappearance of the Dwemer."

nuba km:

thedo12:

nuba km:

*snip*

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man.

Basically the empire is trying to stop the nords worshiping a man who nearly committed genocide as it is incredibly offensive to any elf. The only problem being is that they have to work with a group of elitist to accomplish this, which they don't like.

Ysgramor and the Companions drove the Snow Elves underground. Talos came after that and the Dragon war thing. He was the first Septim emperor. Tiber Septim. You know, Martin's great great great something grandfather.

uhddh:

nuba km:

thedo12:

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man.

Basically the empire is trying to stop the nords worshiping a man who nearly committed genocide as it is incredibly offensive to any elf. The only problem being is that they have to work with a group of elitist to accomplish this, which they don't like.

Ysgramor and the Companions drove the Snow Elves underground. Talos came after that and the Dragon war thing. He was the first Septim emperor. Tiber Septim. You know, Martin's great great great something grandfather.

I was corrected by someone else already and I have other arguments to support my case if you read my other posts.

OT: Arronax from Arcanum. One of the few twists in any story that legitimately got me.

Also the Wicked Witch of the West. I mean her sister was just murdered, and Glenda the good witch up and taunts her over and over and then steals her sisters shoes. All she wanted was to get her sisters ruby slippers back, and Dorthy just straight up murdered her because of Glenda who's credentials for being the hero to the WWotW's villian was that she was more pretty.

Also the hyenas from the lion king. I mean Mufasa gives this whole speech about how everyone is part of this ecosystem where they are all important and all rely on each other for survival. And then Simba is like what about the hyenas? And literally less than 15 seconds after his circle of life speech, Mufasa is advocating the genocide of all Hyenas. All they wanted was some food.

3 legged goat:
The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability.

By murdering random people? They freely admit right at the beginning that you pretty obviously aren't with the resistance at all, with your crime basically being stumbling too close to a battlefield. The commanding officers response when presented with this fact? Who gives a fuck, execute him/her anyways. Wow great policy for the good guys to have, execute random people. But its not just an insane policy, think about this for a second: If they hadn't been interrupted, the Empires execute-people-because-whatever policy would not only have killed you, but would have literally doomed the entire world to destruction and everyone in it every man, woman, child to a violent death.

3 legged goat:
All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves.

So was Vichy France really the good guys and the French Resistance was evil then?

nuba km:

1. They can't lock contend of the game out to a player just because he isn't playing a certain race.

Yes they can, they are just too much of pansies to do so. Its supposed to be an RPG. The choices you make are supposed to mean something and the characters are supposed to have actual character. If you want to make someone be a racist then make them be a racist, don't just say they are and have them directly contradict what you just said through their actions. That is lazy writing, lazy coding and lazy story telling.

nuba km:

I was corrected by someone else already and I have other arguments to support my case if you read my other posts.

Sorry. Couldn't be bothered reading the whole forum just to check.

The Uncharted series. Because Nathan Drake is a douche.
I can never get over the fact (probably because the enemy AI is really good) that you are killing people for simple profit. Nathan never knows about the whole "The treasure will destroy the world" stuff before the end, so he is choosing to kill people for money, simply because they want the same treasure he does. If someone wanted a treasure so badly that I had to kill them to take it, i'd let them have it.

German soldiers in a WW2 game, the're not necessarily Nazis.

torno:

The video said: "One body, one mind, one soul." I realized they weren't evil when I really stopped and thought about what unitologists were following. They were following the Marker's message: One body, one mind, one soul. Convergance will cause this.
At first, that sounds great.It sounds like a poetic way to say that all people, everywhere, were coming together to live in peace. And end to discrimination, racsim, sexism, and bigotry in general. Personally, I would give a lot to see that happen.

Isn't uniformity and complete conformity in all things, to the point of acting like some sort of hive mind, the epitome of racism, sexism and discrimination? Are our differences not to be celebrated?

Although I agree that the unitologists themselves probably weren't actively trying to be evil.

OT:
Probably Arthas from the Warcraft mythos. He didn't -want- to become a mass-murdering psychotic undead-king... he just sorta got pushed into a corner and did what he had to, to try and save his people. Bad choice? Possibly. Evil intent? Nope.

Doom-Slayer:

nuba km:
OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

The guy shouting can get away with it because Whiterun isnt an imperial city, it is neither. Solitude is the primary Imperial city and they removed the shrine from the Temple of the Divines so people could no worship him. The war started for several reasons, the stormcloaks wanted to be seperate from the empire, and also Talos was thier MAIN god, all of the other gods were not as important to them but they literally had worship of their most important god banned at the say so of the elves.

Also..the Stormcloaks are rascist? The Imperials sided with the Thalmor, who actively hate EVERYONE but them, the stormcloaks simply dislike but tolerate other races since it is their native land. The thalmor literally believe NOBODY else is worthy to go to the afterlife with them and that they are the only worthy ones.

Well there is an in game proof that the imperials also hate the Thalmor. You can kill thalmor right in front of guards for a minor bounty (50 gold) and if you find one inside an imperial allied city you can also kill them there (again for a 50 gold bounty). This means that killing a chicken is treated as a more serious crime then killing the Thalmor.

Doom-Slayer:

nuba km:
OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

The guy shouting can get away with it because Whiterun isnt an imperial city, it is neither. Solitude is the primary Imperial city and they removed the shrine from the Temple of the Divines so people could no worship him. The war started for several reasons, the stormcloaks wanted to be seperate from the empire, and also Talos was thier MAIN god, all of the other gods were not as important to them but they literally had worship of their most important god banned at the say so of the elves.

Also..the Stormcloaks are rascist? The Imperials sided with the Thalmor, who actively hate EVERYONE but them, the stormcloaks simply dislike but tolerate other races since it is their native land. The thalmor literally believe NOBODY else is worthy to go to the afterlife with them and that they are the only worthy ones.

Sided with the Thalmor is a bit harsh. They compromised at best. It was war. They were taking heavy losses and an opportunity arose to at least temporarily barter some peace. It is pointed out again and again that the empire was never really proud of how the whole thing turned out, and that the Thalmor kinda tricked them into a civil war.

The Stormcloaks however acted like children the whole way. Starting up a civil war refusing to see the bigger picture when this "peace" was more needed than ever to gather forces and stand strong against the Thalmor.

targren:

IckleMissMayhem:
Also Riku from Kingdom Hearts.

Not sure I agree about Riku, at least in the first game. That's more of an instance of "doing bad things with good intentions" (the road to hell, and all...) which I don't think is exactly the same thing.

Since I love the game here is my 2 cents.

Riku is not the villain at all. He tried to get stronger to protect his friends.

Quazimofo:

Peaco:
I'd say one character that really emphasizes this trait is Ashur from the Fallout 3 DLC The Pitt.

The situation presented in that plot arch was one of the first ones that really struck me with seemingly undecidable decision, and even though the DLC itself wasn't the greatest, Bethesda really made a great moral conflict.

indeed, i hate how they labelled the one way with bad karma and the other with good despite you... well you know

I really disagree with this.

The laundry list of atrocities committed by Ashur is incredibly hard to justify:

There are reasons for good characters to support him however. I wouldn't deny that.

direkiller:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Lorkhan
both kina right and wrong at the same time from the looks of it

"Lorkhan is one of the divine Aedra, and the one most directly responsible for the existence of Nirn. According to legend, Lorkhan died long ago, giving his life to create Nirn. As such, he has not had much direct influence over events of the Third Era, though he was indirectly responsible for at least three major near-disasters in the last decades of the Third Era, and his remains are connected to the disappearance of the Dwemer."

1. UESP is semi-out of date
2. Elder Scrolls wiki is TERRIBLY out-of-date
Neither are good sources for lore.

The Imperial Library and the Bethesda Elder Scroll's Lore forums are the only two places you should be getting lore from.

UESP and Elder scrolls wiki don't accept outside-game lore documents made by the devs even if they have been proven canon.

Mycroft Holmes:
snip

"Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." - Zurin Arctus, the Underking

Alduin would have actually had to stop destroying everything if The Dragonborn was gone, the dragonborn was needed for Alduuin to be there and vice-vera. Beyond that they COULDN'T have killed you because destiny would have screwed it up in some way every time.

Secondly you were sent to be executed for ILLEGALLY CROSSING THE BORDER, why does no one bother to actually look up why you were arrested.

Thirdly this isn't vichy France in any way.

ugh i hate this places posting system post not supposed to be here.

kouriichi:
more of a threat then the Big Bad Boss dragon.

The thing about Alduin though is that once he eats the world another one is made and it is EXACTLY like the previous one. The world has been destroyed and rebuilt countless times in the ES universe.

Also he eats the world because with the destruction of the towers, such as Numidium, Crystal Tower, White Gold, The Throat of the World, Red Mountain, etc. etc., the world has become critically unstable and it would be disastrous to leave it standing for much longer.

Talos, who is Lorkhan reborn, and Akatosh fight their mirror brothers Auri-El, and the other time dragons, to keep the world going as long as possible so that all mortals may find CHIM like Vivec and Talos did.

It is why the thalmor hate Talos so, he and Akatosh keep Auri-El bound and with him the Mer.

Technically a game villain, Mister Freeze from Batman Arkham City. I never really think about villains untill I fight'em and Mr. Freeze was no exception, I realized that he's not really a bad guy, he just wants to save his wife, what ever the cost. Even if it means doing some bad things. To paraphrase Threasa from Fable 2. "Would we do anything different?" I wouldn't.

Avatar Roku:

...
Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor.
...

And indeed; It is made clear, especially during the embassy chapter, that the Thalmor are actively playing the two sides against each other -- divide and conquer and all that.

Both the Imperials and Ulfric are fully aware of this and still lets it happen.

Time of misrule indeed.

Somebloke:

Time of misrule indeed.

The time of Misrule was Jagar Tharn's rule during ES 1:Arena.

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