And You thought that 13 years old swearing in shooters are bad...

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Controversial title yay.

I do not know how many of You guys here follow e-Sports scene, especially fighting games scene, but recently Capcom along with IGN and Twitch.tv started a live show called Cross Assault. The general idea was to make it into somewhat reality-show, where 5 Tekken pros and 5 Street Fighter pros would play various team challenges with commentary and all the background noise/interaction between players.
All fine and dandy, right?

Well not really.
On day five of the show, community manager from Twitch.tv, said on stream that it is pretty hard for him to return to the fighting games community after spending a lot of time among StarCraft2 players, who generally are more mature and welcoming bunch than the fighting scene, after seeing and hearing some blatant examples of racism/sexism present.

And the drama started.

Coach of the Tekken, Aris, team started to respond to those "accusations" by saying that it's how the fighting games community is supposed to be and fighting games and sexual harassment are pretty much same thing. He then started talking how trying to root out such behaviors from the community would be unethical. Generally he tried to come out as super-tough guy who fights fo' real and not with a pad, and how the core essences of fighting games community is to be unwelcome...

When one of the female players there tried to take part in the discussion that suddenly blew out of proportions she instantly got shushed by others and told to let the "man speaking for her to finish", and that the whole foul, sexist/racist language surrounding the community is what makes it good.

You can read more details on it on PA (http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/sexual-harassment-as-ethical-imperative-the-ugly-side-of-fighting-games) and Destructoid made a piece about it as well.

If that's the image of gamers that gets broadcasted and kept up there is no chance in hell gaming will ever be considered as serious thing.
For me eSports were always in part, about trying to reach wider audience, trying to get people to understand that competitive gaming is a valid form of entertainment or maybe even sport (discussion about whenever sport is limited to athletes or not aside). Situations like this however put us years back, to the stereotypes of creepy, basement dwelling, drooling failures, and igve more arguments to all those people who want to ban/limit the "violence" in videogames.

well, couldn't just take him out of the torunament and not present that episode?

if he is a jerk, is because he is a jerk.

I never had these problems with the Quake 1 multiplayer, even at computer shows and gaming conventions.

... What?! I mean, seriously, what on Earth? "Part of culture"? How can any sane person actually believe this? This article left me entirely flabberghasted.

I don't like competitive multiplayer gaming anyway, due to all of the usual reasons, so professional competitive gamers acting like this doesn't surprise me at all. It does sadden me though.

On the one hand, Aris was a behaving like a dickhead.

On the other hand, shit talking is an integral part of fighting games, the key is knowing where to draw the line.

Smertnik:
... What?! I mean, seriously, what on Earth? "Part of culture"? How can any sane person actually believe this? This article left me entirely flabberghasted.

What!? It being part of the culture doesn't make it any better or acceptable, in fact it makes it a lot worse. For sexual harassment to become part of the culture is something that shouldn't have happend surely. Instead of using it as some sort of half baked excuse as a member of the culture and the couch of a team he should be trying to remove such behaviour.

Is it wrong for to think this? It can't be can it?

U71L7Y_F0RMUL4:
I don't like competitive multiplayer gaming anyway, due to all of the usual reasons, so professional competitive gamers acting like this doesn't surprise me at all. It does sadden me though.

Oh don't say it so lightly. Especially in competitive MP games with a broader viewer audience (namely CS, Warcraft ans Starcraft [1+2][yes, no modern games. I never saw any of this stuff live nor will I ever see it live) the players behave exceptionally good. I love to take the "worst" example of SC2, Idra. He is one of the best western Zerg players but he gets always flak for his behaviour. The worst I've seen from him was one simple typed "fuck you" after one... lets say really stupid loss from his side.

This "fuck you" got so many people boiled up why the judges didn't do anything.

But most pro players in those scenes can't allow them to behave like idiots. They are sponsored by companies, they stand in the attention of so many people that any bad behaviour would endanger their contracts. No company wants a sexist idiot representing them on big scale tournaments.

So it actually saddens me that there is a competitive community where the pro players behave like the wanna-be competitive kiddies in other games...

TheKasp:

U71L7Y_F0RMUL4:
I don't like competitive multiplayer gaming anyway, due to all of the usual reasons, so professional competitive gamers acting like this doesn't surprise me at all. It does sadden me though.

Oh don't say it so lightly. Especially in competitive MP games with a broader viewer audience (namely CS, Warcraft ans Starcraft [1+2][yes, no modern games. I never saw any of this stuff live nor will I ever see it live) the players behave exceptionally good. I love to take the "worst" example of SC2, Idra. He is one of the best western Zerg players but he gets always flak for his behaviour. The worst I've seen from him was one simple typed "fuck you" after one... lets say really stupid loss from his side.

This "fuck you" got so many people boiled up why the judges didn't do anything.

So it actually saddens me that there is a competitive community where the pro players behave like the wanna-be competitive kiddies in other games...

I wouldn't fault Idra for that considering he was probably caught up in the moment and the person it was directed at could've done something monumentally stupid.

But these guys seem to be on a whole other level, especially with the way they treated the girl. You'd think "professional" gamers would act "professional". I know that seems insane but it's so insane that it just might work.

Rocklobster99:
On the one hand, Aris was a behaving like a dickhead.

On the other hand, shit talking is an integral part of fighting games, the key is knowing where to draw the line.

Shit talking/taunting is one thing, but when You start to defend it as something that is part of identity as a gamer, and drag whole genre along with You...

I understand perfectly that mentality and "norms" between different genres differ. Generally RTS players are the calmer ones and the community is based on self respect. Bad Manners are commented on and players who BM a lot are criticized for it.
In FPS "raging" and taunting is more common and more accepted, You call each others noobs, throw a fuck or 10 and it's fine usually.
The moment You put misogyny and sexual harassment as pillars of community however and come out with bs like "fighter games have it tough" like it was some kind of crappy ghetto movie where 12 year old boys have to carry guns to stay alive it's certainly crossing the line.

Thing is no outside influence will ever fix it. It's gamers themselves that have to point out such mistakes and try to discourage such attitude.
It strikes me even more since I'm a female gamer myself. I was on the receiving end of various crap thrown at me, but over last years I actually seen improvement, majority of gaming world seemed to realize that girls can play games too and that gender really shouldn't be a factor at all. Then something like this happens, on a live show that's supposed to promote both a game and eSports in general.

Keava:

Coach of the Tekken, Aris, team started to respond to those "accusations" by saying that it's how the fighting games community is supposed to be and fighting games and sexual harassment are pretty much same thing. He then started talking how trying to root out such behaviors from the community would be unethical. Generally he tried to come out as super-tough guy who fights fo' real and not with a pad, and how the core essences of fighting games community is to be unwelcome...

That reasoning doesn't really stand up when you consider that real fighters, people who make a living by inflicting real physical violence on other people, actually have better standards and a professional code of conduct that wouldn't allow them to descend to the level of these gamers.

Quite recently a professional fighter got fired for making a rape joke on Twitter, so I don't see why these virtual professional fighters should be exempt from civilised behaviour.

What is it about e-sports that supposedly excuses behaviour that isn't tolerated in real sports?

I'm not saying professional sportsmen (especially participants in more competitive and physical sports) don't act like dicks, but when they do it's not without consequence.

U71L7Y_F0RMUL4:

I wouldn't fault Idra for that considering he was probably caught up in the moment and the person it was directed at could've done something monumentally stupid.

But these guys seem to be on a whole other level, especially with the way they treated the girl. You'd think "professional" gamers would act "professional". I know that seems insane but it's so insane that it just might work.

I did not want to fault him for that. I just wanted to point out that the biggest "swearer" from the SC2 pro community gets flak for a "fuck you" where people in the discussed situation are protected for beeing racist, sexist jerks.

(Just to the match: I don't remember who played besides Idra, it was a ZvP (Protoss) and Idra had a sure win. When he wanted to make the final attack his enemy (who had a handfull sentries) spend all this energy to make illusions of the Collosi. Idra saw that, did not realise that those things couldn't do jack to him and forfeited the match. After the other player informed him that he gave up on a sure win Idra responded with a "fuck you". A understandable reaction if the opponent rubs this in your face and the fact that it was during a big scale tournament)

Rocklobster99:
On the other hand, shit talking is an integral part of fighting games, the key is knowing where to draw the line.

I don't have any experience with the competitive scene of fighting games but I just can't wrap my head around this kind of mentality. Why would you find verbal aggression acceptable, or even desirable, especially in a competitive scene? It just sounds extremely unprofessional and juvenile to me.
And even if you disregard this train of thought, general swearing is one thing but misogyny shouldn't be tolerated in any kind of context.

TheKasp:

U71L7Y_F0RMUL4:

I wouldn't fault Idra for that considering he was probably caught up in the moment and the person it was directed at could've done something monumentally stupid.

But these guys seem to be on a whole other level, especially with the way they treated the girl. You'd think "professional" gamers would act "professional". I know that seems insane but it's so insane that it just might work.

I did not want to fault him for that. I just wanted to point out that the biggest "swearer" from the SC2 pro community gets flak for a "fuck you" where people in the discussed situation are protected for beeing racist, sexist jerks.

(Just to the match: I don't remember who played besides Idra, it was a ZvP (Protoss) and Idra had a sure win. When he wanted to make the final attack his enemy (who had a handfull sentries) spend all this energy to make illusions of the Collosi. Idra saw that, did not realise that those things couldn't do jack to him and forfeited the match. After the other player informed him that he gave up on a sure win Idra responded with a "fuck you". A understandable reaction if the opponent rubs this in your face and the fact that it was during a big scale tournament)

Sorry if it seemed like I was saying you faulted him for it, that was directed at the people who did complain.

That story made me laugh, and to be honest I would have said the same thing as Idra if I were his position. But if I were in his opponents position I would have done a Freddy.


Seriously whoever that guy was is a hero.

So I just read a comment from one of the defenders: "She giggled all the time and enjoyed the attention until someone mentioned harassment".

I can't stop shaking my head about this statement. I expirienced on several occasions where people have a problem defending themselfs, espeically around people who are just concentrating on the thing the person don't want to hear / talk about / whatever.

The most recent example was a friend of mine on a party who took me to the side and asked me to talk to a guy to stop making some stupid jokes she disliked. When he made them she stood there and giggled.

U71L7Y_F0RMUL4:
Megasnip

Heh, no problem. It was more of a misread from my side because I am a little shaken by the stuff I read and heard.

I am one of those guys who defend eSports because, in my opinion, it can do a lot of good towards the acceptance of gaming. Unlike gamers and developers themselfs those guys have the possibility to stand in the big light of the media and in some cases they already did. I remember seeing a big reportation about Germanys national CS 1.6 team and their preparations to a CS 1.6 "world tournament". Since then Germany came the way to show CS:S on a TV channel financed by the state (together with FIFA and another one I really don't remember). The last actually changed my fathers view on this whole concept.

I won't throw a stick to those... well, jerks is too nice. For all I care after seeing this much defense of this STUPID statements I really hope that this competitive scene never reaches the daylight of bis sponsored eSports live events (From what I saw those are still dominted by CS:S/ 1.6, Quake, [...]Craft X and FIFA here) and, in the best case, dies completly out.

This is seriously disgusting and disheartening.

I do wonder when the gaming community is going to face up to the behaviour that we freaking let happen. I dont know how many times I've had someone say something disgusting to me in a group of players, and seen everyone just let it happen. You can tell sometimes others are uncomfortable, but I've never once had another player stand up for me (exluding my boyfriend).
I'm also going to point out that `Stand up for yourself!` doesn't usually work against people who refuse to view you as anything more than a `girl`, so automatically dismisses anything and everything you say.
Swearing in frustration during a match is totally different to sexual harrassment and silencing women just for having a vagina.
Sometimes it's really tiring to be a female gamer, and you can feel so pushed out that you just want to stop playing, I've come close several times to just packing it in.

So, blagh. I've had enough of this shit and I would be really happy to see male gamers standing up for their female counterparts.

"The beauty of the fighting game community, and you should know this - it's based around not being welcome. That's the beauty of it. That's the key essence of it. When you walk into an arcade for the first time, nobody likes you." said Aris Bakhtanians.

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard in my life. Fighting games have a high learning curve, and that's fine, but Aris here is confusing himself and the games he plays. You have to put in work to avoid being crushed within the game, but you shouldn't have to prove a goddamn thing to avoid being reamed out and harassed by some anonymous asshole you just met, even if he is better than you at some virtual competition. I guess if you scare away all the new people, then you and your two friends in the in-crowd fighting "community" will be without a doubt the kings of the arcade.

Seriously, free speech is a human right, but others are protected from harassment and other forms of fighting words by the law, and trash talking is fine, but this asshole is condoning systemic harassment and exclusion of a huge chunk of people.

"Free Speech" is one thing. Saying stupid stuff as a represantative of a competitive scene and professional gaming itself is fucking stupid and gets people fired on any normal occasion. There is a reason why big names in the SC2 scene behave that way, there is a reason big names of any sport, scene or whatsoever don't go in front of a camera the same way they would go to the toilet at home.

Launcelot111:
"The beauty of the fighting game community, and you should know this - it's based around not being welcome. That's the beauty of it. That's the key essence of it. When you walk into an arcade for the first time, nobody likes you." said Aris Bakhtanians.

Explains why I never got into the fighting game scene to begin with. Seems to be full of elitist, sexist jerks if his description is correct.

Dammit does no one know how to use a search bar anymore ?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.352475-Cross-Assault-More-Like-Sexual-Assault#13971418

I mean really , i love how everyone think that their thread is SO important they assume no one made one like it OR the feel the need to make their own thread.

As for me ill cop past what i said in the other thread:

Ordinaryundone:
Here's the thing: It's trash talk. It's SUPPOSED to put you ill at ease and hurt your feelings. If it doesn't, then you aren't doing it right. I have no idea what this guy said, but chances are good that this Miranda took it way too personally. If I quit a game every time someone threw slurs or profanity at me, especially in competition, I'd never get anything done. In any competetive setting, you just have to learn to have tough skin. Yipes says shit that would make my grandmother faint on a regular basis (if she could understand half of it).

That said, just because it's standard practice (and not exactly wrong) doesn't mean its right. He probably could have chosen less offensive names or something, but the fact remains, its a competetive setting made all the more competetive for the large prize being offered. She had to know what she was getting into.

I have to agree with most of this , but what did he say exacly? Were what he said sexist ( i mean real sexism , not that bullshit extreme feminist call sexist) because if it was thats crossing the line . I'd be damn if i'd let someone say racist things to me during a competition ( i say racist because i'm black and i think that would be crossing the line ). But what does "sexual charged" mean . I personally would find it offensive if hed said something like " you can't win because you don't have a penis " as opposed to " are you boobs getting in the way".

All communities on all platforms and in all games are shit, save for some niche games. Anyone who believes anything else is kidding themselves. This should surprise no one.

krazykidd:
snip

Watch the youtube video in the penny arcade link from the OP.

It is not trashtalk when he talks about her taking of the top, only talking about her boobs and thighs, saying that she has to wear more revealing clothing and that she should join a mud wrestling with someone and he get the winner as a trophy and so on. There is a small point between attacking her just for the sake of attacking and trash talk.

Oh, we seem to have two threads about this. Just gonna repost my post from the other thread because this one seems more popular.

Imo, the line of "trash talk" was simply crossed here. Sure, there may be a little trash talk but here the line was simply stepped. Even if all of the comments hadn't been sexually aggressive, it would simply have been too much for a publicly aired show.
People have to remember that shows like this are influencing how we as gamers are seen by outsiders and having someone step so out of line, then defend himself (with poor arguments like "we're in America") and then later be defended by the fighting game community as if it were perfectly normal and acceptable is a bad thing.

The show could have been a great opportunity for the fighting game community to interest outsiders into their games and help their games become more relevant as an esport. Instead they got this... thing and instead of being outraged about the behaviour shown, they are outraged about how news sources dare criticize them and are defending this behaviour.

krazykidd:

I have to agree with most of this , but what did he say exacly? Were what he said sexist ( i mean real sexism , not that bullshit extreme feminist call sexist) because if it was thats crossing the line . I'd be damn if i'd let someone say racist things to me during a competition ( i say racist because i'm black and i think that would be crossing the line ). But what does "sexual charged" mean . I personally would find it offensive if hed said something like " you can't win because you don't have a penis " as opposed to " are you boobs getting in the way".

Both of those are saying somone is less because of their gender, so both are sexist.
But having been a girl gamer for several years, I can guess the sort of things that were said, as I've probably had all of them said to me at one point.

Like I said before, I'd be really happy if instead of hand-wringing over wording, gamers could realise that female gamers have every right to be here and realise that deciding to tell a woman to `let the man finish speaking for her` is in no way acceptable.

He sounds like a bully.

krazykidd:
Dammit does no one know how to use a search bar anymore ?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.352475-Cross-Assault-More-Like-Sexual-Assault#13971418

I mean really , i love how everyone think that their thread is SO important they assume no one made one like it OR the feel the need to make their own thread.

As for me ill cop past what i said in the other thread:

Ordinaryundone:
Here's the thing: It's trash talk. It's SUPPOSED to put you ill at ease and hurt your feelings. If it doesn't, then you aren't doing it right. I have no idea what this guy said, but chances are good that this Miranda took it way too personally. If I quit a game every time someone threw slurs or profanity at me, especially in competition, I'd never get anything done. In any competetive setting, you just have to learn to have tough skin. Yipes says shit that would make my grandmother faint on a regular basis (if she could understand half of it).

That said, just because it's standard practice (and not exactly wrong) doesn't mean its right. He probably could have chosen less offensive names or something, but the fact remains, its a competetive setting made all the more competetive for the large prize being offered. She had to know what she was getting into.

I have to agree with most of this , but what did he say exacly? Were what he said sexist ( i mean real sexism , not that bullshit extreme feminist call sexist) because if it was thats crossing the line . I'd be damn if i'd let someone say racist things to me during a competition ( i say racist because i'm black and i think that would be crossing the line ). But what does "sexual charged" mean . I personally would find it offensive if hed said something like " you can't win because you don't have a penis " as opposed to " are you boobs getting in the way".

Why do you have to insult the other player in the first place, regardless of whether they're female? It just trasmits this image that gamers are juvenile and violent, that we really don't need. Also I wouldn't find it offensive if they said " you can't win because you don't have a penis " because that just sounds stupid and funny...but what I would find offensive is, well, look at the youtube clip like TheKasp said.

asacatman:

Why do you have to insult the other player in the first place, regardless of whether they're female? It just trasmits this image that gamers are juvenile and violent, that we really don't need. Also I wouldn't find it offensive if they said " you can't win because you don't have a penis " because that just sounds stupid and funny...but what I would find offensive is, well, look at the youtube clip like TheKasp said.

This is kind of why I'm raging about it.
I'm all `Argh wtf we can be better than this`, and I think gamers (male and female alike) should not at all want to be associated with these kind of mind-midgets.
But we sort of just seem complacent in this.

asacatman:

krazykidd:
Dammit does no one know how to use a search bar anymore ?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.352475-Cross-Assault-More-Like-Sexual-Assault#13971418

I mean really , i love how everyone think that their thread is SO important they assume no one made one like it OR the feel the need to make their own thread.

As for me ill cop past what i said in the other thread:

Ordinaryundone:
Here's the thing: It's trash talk. It's SUPPOSED to put you ill at ease and hurt your feelings. If it doesn't, then you aren't doing it right. I have no idea what this guy said, but chances are good that this Miranda took it way too personally. If I quit a game every time someone threw slurs or profanity at me, especially in competition, I'd never get anything done. In any competetive setting, you just have to learn to have tough skin. Yipes says shit that would make my grandmother faint on a regular basis (if she could understand half of it).

That said, just because it's standard practice (and not exactly wrong) doesn't mean its right. He probably could have chosen less offensive names or something, but the fact remains, its a competetive setting made all the more competetive for the large prize being offered. She had to know what she was getting into.

I have to agree with most of this , but what did he say exacly? Were what he said sexist ( i mean real sexism , not that bullshit extreme feminist call sexist) because if it was thats crossing the line . I'd be damn if i'd let someone say racist things to me during a competition ( i say racist because i'm black and i think that would be crossing the line ). But what does "sexual charged" mean . I personally would find it offensive if hed said something like " you can't win because you don't have a penis " as opposed to " are you boobs getting in the way".

Why do you have to insult the other player in the first place, regardless of whether they're female? It just trasmits this image that gamers are juvenile and violent, that we really don't need. Also I wouldn't find it offensive if they said " you can't win because you don't have a penis " because that just sounds stupid and funny...but what I would find offensive is, well, look at the youtube clip like TheKasp said.

Seriously, I had friends that said crap like Aris said pretty often in freshman year of high school, and I thought it was pretty creepy and immature then. These are grown men twice the age of my friends back in the day. In the clip, Aris teases the girl and only the girl almost constantly. You don't find it weird at all when a guy straight up says to a girl (who as far as I can tell doesn't know the guy all too well) that she should move her arms because he doesn't have a good enough view of her chest? In the second clip where Aris says the majority of his classy quotes, the girl flat out says that Aris is going too far for her tastes, and Aris tells her to shut up and that this is how fighting games are meant to be.

This is disrespectful behavior and inappropriate behavior and encouraging such behavior and even framing it as a cornerstone of your supposed community is not a way to promote or gain respect for your community. Aris seems like a tremendous ass who is trying to justify his own crap, and I applaud the producer for pointing out his crap, but it's telling that all the other guys sat around and didn't say a damn thing.

I'm really bad at fighting games, but I enjoy them, and I like watching tournament videos on Youtube where other players add color commentary. Everyone there seems respectful and they give credit where credit is due when other players do impressive things and people criticize poor play instead of blindly harassing people for whatever reason. This is pretty much the same as televised professional sports, and this is the model video games should follow if they want to go for the big time- respectful but still laid back, instead of loud and rude like Aris.

And to the guy from the quote within a quote, what is the difference between "she lost because she doesn't have a penis (because she's a woman)" and "she lost because her breasts are in the way (because she's a woman)"?

Trash talk should be about making fun of how a person plays. Calling them out on cheap moves, make fun of their character choice, taunt them when you pull off a good combo.

Attacking the actual player is definitely not acceptable behavior I think.

Maybe it is part of the fighting game culture, bu if they gave a single shit about their gaming being professional and a successful esport maybe they should act a lil more......professional.

I imagine this situation in any other professional sport i can think of and regardless of it being part of the 'sulture' there would be player fines, player suspentions, team fines and it would be blasted all over the news.

All these idiots have done is set back esports, good job fuck knuckles.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
All communities on all platforms and in all games are shit, save for some niche games. Anyone who believes anything else is kidding themselves. This should surprise no one.

And there is still a HUGE difference between professional gamers (in the established scenes like SC2, CS1.6, Quake and others which get sponsored by huge brands) and the normal everyday community. Only one of them can allow themselfs to behave so.

You are from Germany like myself. I'd suggest (if it is not a giant travel) to visit one ESL pro series final event. Or just watch some big SC2 tournament, no trash talk on screen between the participants and such. You'll see the difference to the everyday MP round.

I'd bring again the example of Idra, the "biggest mouth" of the western SC2 scene who got flak from many parts of the community for typing out a "fuck you" after beeing provoked.

It all boils down to the fact that the professional players in most cases are under contract with a sponsor. They create PR and recognition. If a scene wants to get into the top bracket they better have people who know how to behave in front of many, many people.

Smertnik:
... What?! I mean, seriously, what on Earth? "Part of culture"? How can any sane person actually believe this? This article left me entirely flabberghasted.

If it is something that a large part of that culture take part in then yes it is part of that culture. That doesn't make it right or acceptable, but it is part of the culture. If the culture as a whole decides that behavor is unacceptable then as a culture they can change. That is the beauty of culture it evolves.

The weirdest part, to me, is that my time in the Street Fighter IV multiplayer was the one time that other players were gracious and pleasant in my entire history with multiplayer.

Clearly, fighting game culture is more broad than that, my dear Aris.

What I find most unpleasant about this whole incident is that it was the fucking manager of the team, rather than a team-member or even a rival. While it would be distasteful at best coming from one of the latter two, this was in effect her boss and someone she should be able to turn to when there is an issue that needs addressing.

Simply appalling.

U71L7Y_F0RMUL4:

But these guys seem to be on a whole other level, especially with the way they treated the girl. You'd think "professional" gamers would act "professional". I know that seems insane but it's so insane that it just might work.

Professional gamer in this case seems like an oxymoron...

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