A take on how to solve the used game issue

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veloper:

Crono1973:

veloper:

If you had included in the quote the sentence that followed, you would have had your answer.

I'll elobarate on the zero value. The price of real (non-vitual) goods depends on scarcity. Digital data, including videogames, can be copied infinitely by publishers, gamers, anyone, so there's no production value.
A copy of the game manual, flimsy as it usually is, is still worth more than a copy of the actual game, because a color photocopy atleast costs paper and ink.
Replicating the game is easy and costs nothing. If you must also have it on a dics, then a couple cents for the disc. So if you're paying, but not even to support the devs, you are basicly throwing money at free stuff.
The prices that publishers set on games, movies, music etc. are all completely arbitrary bullshit, but atleast they have an initial investment to recoup. Used game sellers have a lucrative scam.

You seem to think places like Gamestop make their copies. No, they buy them from consumers. If I trade in a copy of Final Fantasy XIII-2, Gamestop will pay me $30 for it (until the game has been out a month, I saw a promotional ad). Gamestop now has $30 to recoup for that copy of the game. They will charge $55 for it but it probably cost Gamestop more to acquire that copy than it took the publisher to manufacture that copy.

Well I don't. Just because a gamer sold the game to gamestop for X amount doesn't mean the game is actually worth X amount. Gamestop will find the greater fool who will pay even more for it.

Ok whatever.

If your attitude is that games are data and data can be infinitely copied therefore games are worth zero, that's understandable but it doesn't have any discussion value in a thread about used games. Used games are bought and sold and money changes hands whether you think the game has monetary value or not.

veloper:
Used game sellers have a lucrative scam.

The used game sellers I deal with treat me FAR better than any developer publisher does for buying their goods.

If I buy a used game at Gamestop I have seven days to bring it back for whatever reason I want and get a full refund. With a new game I get no such safety net.

For being a someone who buys most of my games used and is a member of their in store rewards program I get most of my games for buy 2 get 1 free on top of the 10% I save on everything I buy used. With new games I'm typically stuck paying full price except in the rare instances some store drops the prices a few bucks.

Furthermore, Gamestops have the ability to print up codes for things like multiplayer or DLC that's included with new games. Just recently I was given the DLC code for the Catwoman content on Arkham City even though I bought it used. The same with the most recent Madden. I bought it used and they ran off a multiplayer code from their sales terminal.

The only thing I don't participate in is trading in my old games. I don't find their prices to be fair. I find it's a far better option after my seven day return window closes to sell my old games on craigslist where I can recoup most of my money.

All in all Gamestop treats me far tter than any developer or publisher does. As a result I give them my money. Maybe when new game sellers start offering me the same type of service I get from buying my games used I will consider supporting them. However, until then they can go bugger each other for all I care.

I think the only way to get rid of used is to respect your customer, and not rip them off while controlling what they do with the product.

They seem to be trying to turn games into a service, that they can shut off if you slight them.

There is also no point in buying used, because of how expensive all these passes and project 10 dollar's add up to.

Game stores tend not to factor in these things. So when you buy a game used for 49.99 and have to pay 15 bucks to get the basic content, you just spent more than retail.

The other problem is DLC, which has been wholly abused by this gen. They realized they could charge extra for all the cool bits, and did so. Used to be I would buy used, then buy the dlc and by the time that was done I had spent the cost of a new game. Now the dlc costs as much or more than whole games, because it lives in this bubble that these small chunks of content warrant such a price.

But hey that's just me, I feel slighted by these companies selling digital goods so high since they have so much less value than a physical copy.

Or make games so good that people never sell them.

Crono1973:

Keava:

ohnoitsabear:

Sixthed.

The used game "problem" is an issue of games not being worth what the publishers are charging.

The rumors that the next Xbox will have things to prevent used games is seriously concerning.

The "publisher" is charging You ~30$ on a game - that's the wholesale price. Rest is retailer markup, console manufacturer royalties, and in some cases distributor fee.

I read it was $48 and only $12 goes to the retailer.

It varies really and no one will get You definite data, other than only half of that game price is actual game price and rest are other fees That fall down on consumer (markup, royalties, licensing). Used to be distribution as well, but most major publishers these days have their own distribution chains set up so They don't have to pay extra.

4 years ago, when analysis was done for Gears of War 3, it was said at least 500k new copies must sell before new game makes profit, and in some cases the number goes up to 1million copies before the publisher actually profits 1$/box sold.

While to solution to the problem should be easy, as in digital distribution, people often don't realize that B&M retailers simply wallop the whole deal saying that if the game is sold cheaper through digital distributors (who take much lower markup), They won't stock the title. That's also why some retailers have those "promotions" and retailer exclusive content.

The bottom line is that it's mostly due to B&M retailers the common price point for games is between 50-60$ and it will take some time before it falls down. The recent situation with GAME/Gamestation in UK already shows the benefit of digital retail (like Amazon), who still provide You with physical copies while offering lower prices.

Xanthious:

veloper:
Used game sellers have a lucrative scam.

The used game sellers I deal with treat me FAR better than any developer publisher does for buying their goods.

If I buy a used game at Gamestop I have seven days to bring it back for whatever reason I want and get a full refund. With a new game I get no such safety net.

For being a someone who buys most of my games used and is a member of their in store rewards program I get most of my games for buy 2 get 1 free on top of the 10% I save on everything I buy used. With new games I'm typically stuck paying full price except in the rare instances some store drops the prices a few bucks.

Furthermore, Gamestops have the ability to print up codes for things like multiplayer or DLC that's included with new games. Just recently I was given the DLC code for the Catwoman content on Arkham City even though I bought it used. The same with the most recent Madden. I bought it used and they ran off a multiplayer code from their sales terminal.

The only thing I don't participate in is trading in my old games. I don't find their prices to be fair. I find it's a far better option after my seven day return window closes to sell my old games on craigslist where I can recoup most of my money.

All in all Gamestop treats me far tter than any developer or publisher does. As a result I give them my money. Maybe when new game sellers start offering me the same type of service I get from buying my games used I will consider supporting them. However, until then they can go bugger each other for all I care.

The same gamestop that won't let you return new games, only used games on which they make a much bigger profit margin.
Yes, they give you some scraps if you buy used from them, but only because you're giving them much more.

Xanthious:

veloper:
Used game sellers have a lucrative scam.

The used game sellers I deal with treat me FAR better than any developer publisher does for buying their goods.

If I buy a used game at Gamestop I have seven days to bring it back for whatever reason I want and get a full refund. With a new game I get no such safety net.

For being a someone who buys most of my games used and is a member of their in store rewards program I get most of my games for buy 2 get 1 free on top of the 10% I save on everything I buy used. With new games I'm typically stuck paying full price except in the rare instances some store drops the prices a few bucks.

Furthermore, Gamestops have the ability to print up codes for things like multiplayer or DLC that's included with new games. Just recently I was given the DLC code for the Catwoman content on Arkham City even though I bought it used. The same with the most recent Madden. I bought it used and they ran off a multiplayer code from their sales terminal.

The only thing I don't participate in is trading in my old games. I don't find their prices to be fair. I find it's a far better option after my seven day return window closes to sell my old games on craigslist where I can recoup most of my money.

All in all Gamestop treats me far tter than any developer or publisher does. As a result I give them my money. Maybe when new game sellers start offering me the same type of service I get from buying my games used I will consider supporting them. However, until then they can go bugger each other for all I care.

Absolutely. I buy all my games at Gamestop now because of their rewards program. Why pay the same price for a new game at Wal Mart and get no reward for it. I bought my PSP, DSi XL and PS3 new at Gamestop instead of Wal Mart to get the reward points. There simply is no reason to buy from big box stores.

As for used games, being able to return them in 7 days is awesome. Publishers want you to buy blind (pre-order, no demo) and offer no recourse if the game sucks or you could pay less for a used game and have a return option if the game suck (and also get reward points). It's really a no-brainer.

I used to hold on to my games but I recently started selling them to Gamestop, after all, they were only collecting dust on my shelf. I don't sell games I may go back to.

The rewards card also gets me a subscription to Game Informer, the magazine is practically free considering the Rewards card pays for itself in 10% discounts and 10% more in trade ins alone.

Also, does Wal Mart give me 20% off the guide if I buy it with the game?

random_bars:
Why SHOULD they get royalties, though? Why do they deserve it, when no other industry does?

Here's a better suggestion. Instead of focusing on the problem - people buying used games en masse - why not focus on the actual CAUSE of the problem, i.e. most games these days being short and boring, with reviews which rate the game solely on its hype and polish rather than how fun it actually is? Because that's what causes people to not want to buy games new in the first place. And moreover, that's what causes people to trade in their games two days after release - which is exactly what allows the used games market to take such a sizeable chunk out of the new games market.

If you don't want people buying your games used, why don't you make games that people don't want to trade in? Long, involved games that people can get invested in. Games with lots of variety that people would want to play through several times. Hard games that people will beat slowly and determinedly. Games with great, fun multiplayer. Really good games that people will want to keep on their shelf and not get rid of. Or simply cheap games that there's no point in trading in because you just won't get much back for it.

When you make a linear FPS that people can beat in a day and you charge $60 for it, are you really surprised that people have no reason to hang on to that game?

this this and more this i've been saying this for a long time now...

if you look back towards older games, i don't think i can name a single one i could beat in a single day. and those games were "small" if you're talking about memory requirements. you'd think (logically) that the larger games of today would get more expansive. y'know what? here's an idea... why don't we combine sequels? i'm sure Halo's 1&2 could've easily been made into a single game. and not just the shorter liner FPS games like Halo... any short game that ends in a cliffhanger... where you KNOW there's gonna be a sequel(*Cough*Mass Effect*Cough*)(okay granted ME is by no means a short game... but it's a decent enough example, it IS also possible to beat in a day if you ignore all the sidequests). i mean, the game was short to begin with, why not combine it with its own sequel before you release it and actually finish the story? then we have a good long and fun game we won't want to get rid of for a long time and you can still charge $60 for it.

as a lot of other posters have mentioned. there's secondhand markets for EVERYTHING ELSE... cars, movies, books, music... seriously... why does GAMING have to be the entitled little shit that complains about it?

veloper:

Xanthious:

veloper:
Used game sellers have a lucrative scam.

The used game sellers I deal with treat me FAR better than any developer publisher does for buying their goods.

If I buy a used game at Gamestop I have seven days to bring it back for whatever reason I want and get a full refund. With a new game I get no such safety net.

For being a someone who buys most of my games used and is a member of their in store rewards program I get most of my games for buy 2 get 1 free on top of the 10% I save on everything I buy used. With new games I'm typically stuck paying full price except in the rare instances some store drops the prices a few bucks.

Furthermore, Gamestops have the ability to print up codes for things like multiplayer or DLC that's included with new games. Just recently I was given the DLC code for the Catwoman content on Arkham City even though I bought it used. The same with the most recent Madden. I bought it used and they ran off a multiplayer code from their sales terminal.

The only thing I don't participate in is trading in my old games. I don't find their prices to be fair. I find it's a far better option after my seven day return window closes to sell my old games on craigslist where I can recoup most of my money.

All in all Gamestop treats me far tter than any developer or publisher does. As a result I give them my money. Maybe when new game sellers start offering me the same type of service I get from buying my games used I will consider supporting them. However, until then they can go bugger each other for all I care.

The same gamestop that won't let you return new games, only used games on which they make a much bigger profit margin.
Yes, they give you some scraps if you buy used from them, but only because you're giving them much more.

Blame the publishers, no store takes back opened new games because the publisher won't allow it. If they did take back new games, they would lose money because they would have to restock it as a used game.

I did get Gamestop to take back my PS3 version of Skyrim though, in exchange for a PC version. So they ended up with a used PS3 version and I ended up with a new PC version. It's an exception for them to do that though. If I had bought Skyrim anywhere else, I would have not been able to exchange it.

Better solutions then publishers getting royalties on Usd:
-Developers getting royalties. (that's a joke, but I said "better" not "good" :P)

-Give shit away for free with new copies.
Examples of good free shit: soundtracks, store discounts, access to stuff not related to the specific game (early demos or betas or w/e for upcoming games)

-Make a game so amazingly good people aren't going to want to return it. (pretty big task really, but still "better")

-Make different deals with retailers that aren't directly profiting from used sales.
Examples: something like Publisher sells to retailer for slightly lower price for the first few orders and the retailer doesn't sell used copies of the game for a couple weeks.

burningdragoon:
Better solutions then publishers getting royalties on Usd:
-Developers getting royalties. (not seriously, but I said "better" not "good" :P)

Not good at all, royalties shouldn't even be considered. That would set a terrible precedent and the consumer would pay the royalties, not some other corporate entity. The used game will still cost $55 but the person selling it will get less, to cover the royalties.

A developer is akin to a factory worker. If a developer gets such compassion, why doesn't the guy who put the dashboard into your car? Does he deserve royalties when you sell your car to someone else?

Crono1973:

burningdragoon:
Better solutions then publishers getting royalties on Usd:
-Developers getting royalties. (not seriously, but I said "better" not "good" :P)

Not good at all, royalties shouldn't even be considered. That would set a terrible precedent and the consumer would pay the royalties, not some other corporate entity. The used game will still cost $55 but the person selling it will get less, to cover the royalties.

A developer is akin to a factory worker. If a developer gets such compassion, why doesn't the guy who put the dashboard into your car? Does he deserve royalties when you sell your car to someone else?

That was a joke. If someone should be getting royalties on a used game, which no one should, it should go to the people who actually made the damn thing. Like how music royalties (should) work.

I don't see a huge push to get rid of used BOOKS, or to shut down Good Will (which has all used things).

The whole "issue" with the used games market is that publishers are greedy fuckers, especially EA and Activision.

Crono1973:

veloper:

Xanthious:

The used game sellers I deal with treat me FAR better than any developer publisher does for buying their goods.

If I buy a used game at Gamestop I have seven days to bring it back for whatever reason I want and get a full refund. With a new game I get no such safety net.

For being a someone who buys most of my games used and is a member of their in store rewards program I get most of my games for buy 2 get 1 free on top of the 10% I save on everything I buy used. With new games I'm typically stuck paying full price except in the rare instances some store drops the prices a few bucks.

Furthermore, Gamestops have the ability to print up codes for things like multiplayer or DLC that's included with new games. Just recently I was given the DLC code for the Catwoman content on Arkham City even though I bought it used. The same with the most recent Madden. I bought it used and they ran off a multiplayer code from their sales terminal.

The only thing I don't participate in is trading in my old games. I don't find their prices to be fair. I find it's a far better option after my seven day return window closes to sell my old games on craigslist where I can recoup most of my money.

All in all Gamestop treats me far tter than any developer or publisher does. As a result I give them my money. Maybe when new game sellers start offering me the same type of service I get from buying my games used I will consider supporting them. However, until then they can go bugger each other for all I care.

The same gamestop that won't let you return new games, only used games on which they make a much bigger profit margin.
Yes, they give you some scraps if you buy used from them, but only because you're giving them much more.

Blame the publishers, no store takes back opened new games because the publisher won't allow it. If they did take back new games, they would lose money because they would have to restock it as a used game.

I did get Gamestop to take back my PS3 version of Skyrim though, in exchange for a PC version. So they ended up with a used PS3 version and I ended up with a new PC version. It's an exception for them to do that though.

Yes I also blame the publishers. The publishers suck for their outdated business models. Gamestop are smart for scamming their customers and getting praised for it too.
What I often did was trade games for games among gamers, with no money changing hands. You can drive to store and pay for it, or you can drive to a friend and make a trade where neither party gets shafted in the deal.

ohnoitsabear:
The rumors that the next Xbox will have things to prevent used games is seriously concerning.

Those rumors are also complete bullshit. The only way they could prevent the use of used games on the next Xbox is if it doesn't use a physical disc at all.

burningdragoon:

Crono1973:

burningdragoon:
Better solutions then publishers getting royalties on Usd:
-Developers getting royalties. (not seriously, but I said "better" not "good" :P)

Not good at all, royalties shouldn't even be considered. That would set a terrible precedent and the consumer would pay the royalties, not some other corporate entity. The used game will still cost $55 but the person selling it will get less, to cover the royalties.

A developer is akin to a factory worker. If a developer gets such compassion, why doesn't the guy who put the dashboard into your car? Does he deserve royalties when you sell your car to someone else?

That was a joke. If someone should be getting royalties on a used game, which no one should, it should go to the people who actually made the damn thing. Like how music royalties (should) work.

Yeah I knew you weren't serious, I was throwing out a counter argument for everyone to see.

Fijiman:

ohnoitsabear:
The rumors that the next Xbox will have things to prevent used games is seriously concerning.

Those rumors are also complete bullshit. The only way they could prevent the use of used games on the next Xbox is if it doesn't use a physical disc at all.

Don't play many PC games do you?

They could do that by having activation codes, the groundwork is already there (ie, online passes). Microsoft has been doing it since the launch of Windows XP. They provide an 800 number for those without internet access.

Ideally the publishers wouldn't be swallowing up any profits from used game sales at all, but as it is that's almost definitely not going to happen. This doesn't seem like a realistic compromise though. I'm sure they make more money using online passes than they would if they got a measly 5% cut of used sales.

veloper:

Crono1973:

veloper:

The same gamestop that won't let you return new games, only used games on which they make a much bigger profit margin.
Yes, they give you some scraps if you buy used from them, but only because you're giving them much more.

Blame the publishers, no store takes back opened new games because the publisher won't allow it. If they did take back new games, they would lose money because they would have to restock it as a used game.

I did get Gamestop to take back my PS3 version of Skyrim though, in exchange for a PC version. So they ended up with a used PS3 version and I ended up with a new PC version. It's an exception for them to do that though.

Yes I also blame the publishers. The publishers suck for their outdated business models. Gamestop are smart for scamming their customers and getting praised for it too.
What I often did was trade games for games among gamers, with no money changing hands. You can drive to store and pay for it, or you can drive to a friend and make a trade where neither party gets shafted in the deal.

...or you can sell on eBay or Amazon. Options are good and Gamestop is simply an option. People pay for convenience all the time, this is what Gamestop offers. I don't know anyone who wants to trade a game for Little Kings Story and I don't want the hassle of selling it on eBay, so there's Gamestop.

Crono1973:

veloper:

Crono1973:

Blame the publishers, no store takes back opened new games because the publisher won't allow it. If they did take back new games, they would lose money because they would have to restock it as a used game.

I did get Gamestop to take back my PS3 version of Skyrim though, in exchange for a PC version. So they ended up with a used PS3 version and I ended up with a new PC version. It's an exception for them to do that though.

Yes I also blame the publishers. The publishers suck for their outdated business models. Gamestop are smart for scamming their customers and getting praised for it too.
What I often did was trade games for games among gamers, with no money changing hands. You can drive to store and pay for it, or you can drive to a friend and make a trade where neither party gets shafted in the deal.

...or you can sell on eBay or Amazon. Options are good and Gamestop is simply an option. People pay for convenience all the time, this is what Gamestop offers. I don't know anyone who wants to trade a game for Little Kings Story and I don't want the hassle of selling it on eBay, so there's Gamestop.

Selling is fine, on your end. It's the buying part where the shafting happens.

I think, if people would just stop using games, there wouldn't be a used games problem!

Skoldpadda:
I think, if people would just stop using games, there wouldn't be a used games problem!

LOL, there wouldn't be a DRM problem either and publishers would be begging people to "use" their games.

The Knightly Gamer:
Greetings everyone,

As we all know the used game business is a big topic in today's gaming community. We have developers and publishers saying it cuts in to their profits. We also have it being the main life blood of many game store chains. Now I think I might have a solution to this that makes both parties happy. What if the game industry did royalties? What about they get 5% of whatever the used game is sold for? I think this is a decent compromise but, what is your guys' opinion on this issue in the gaming community and how it can be solved?

They already get the royalties... from the first sale. That is the end of the agreement. They produced, someone bought, end of story.

If they want more people to buy new, lower the price.

That's simple economics.

If they want to muscle in on the used games market, do what the car industry does. Buy back unwanted games, and sell them to other people.

They might complain that it's not a great way to make a profit. But then we can point to Gamestop and ask why.

The solution to the used games issue is getting an efficient digital distribution service going for consoles. The problem with that, of course, is that trying to get Microsuck, Phony, and Nintenderp to do anything sensible that would help customers, thereby helping themselves in the long run but hurting them in the short, is like trying to draw water from a stone.

in my case i found a copy of shadow of the collosus used long after the game was released (as i was a nintendo fanboy and skiped the ps2 [great mistake looking backward]), so there was no way i could had get it new at that point. I played it, and is now one of my favorite games of all time. Then i heard that the developers also made ICO and i was curious about that game, but could find it.

A few years later in E3 i saw that they were currently working on the last guardian, so i am now all hypped for that game.

What happend when they realeased ico and shadow of the collosus hd last year? i bought it right away so i could finally play ICO, and also shadow of the collosus on my ps3.

Followed by how good both games are i expect to pre order the last guardian when it becomes aviable.

tyhese two sales of brand new ps3 games were posible just because i got an used copy of a ps2 game.

see how used copies can actually help the developers to make new fans, who are likely to buy their lattest game judged by how good their last game was?

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