Amazon giving full refunds for opened copies of Mass Effect 3

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acer840:
I do appologise, did you Invest in this product? No? Then you don't have any say in the way a company makes thier products, or how an Author writes thier stories. Yes it is your money, maybe you should have waited after launch day and heard reviews, and friends say yay or ney about said product. Instead, you recieved a game, which you paid for, and enjoyed right up to the last 10 minutes and now want your money back. Did you demand your money back fro Zelda - Ocarina of time, because of the difficult water puzle?

There were articles about this in Forbes lately, this one is about the "artistic vision" argument: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/03/16/why-the-mass-effect-3-protests-are-good-for-video-games/

And this one is about the "consumer entitlement" one that seems to come up all the time (including the video linked at the end at about 10 minutes 40 seconds): http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/15/upset-mass-effect-fans-entitled-gamers-or-responsible-consumers/

The sad thing about it is that it takes a business magazine to say it, while all major gaming publications circlejerk around the publishers for their advertisement money calling gamers "entitled" and crap like that.

As for my opinion regarding this "artistic vision" argument, I will just quote myself on the same argument from somewhere else:

Sorry, but I just don't see the "creative" and "artistic vision" in most blockbuster releases nowadays, I don't see the artistic vision in doing a rush job with Photoshopping one of the most important characters in a few minutes and be done with that: http://tinyurl.com/7l8awqa and I certainly don't see the "artistic vision" in taking content out of the game to release it on Day1, this isn't about "Used Sales" anymore either as they still got the Online Pass for that. I can't see the artistic vision in bundling your game with everything imaginably possible: http://tinyurl.com/8yk8y93 or making people play the Multiplayer to get the "best" ending.

I can't comment on the ending, because despite liking Mass Effect 1 and 2 (and even writing "extensive" Reviews for them) I decided not to get this one as it just goes too far into what I will not support anymore.
I'll just spend my money increasingly more on games like Stacking on Steam and put it where my mouth is (and where it can change something) and support projects like the Kickstarters of the Double Fine Adventure or Wasteland 2, games I actually want from developers that treat me like a human being instead of an open wallet and still DO have a creative vision without publisher intereference. Activision and EA in the meantime can go suck a popsicle, because if this all turns out good I won't even need them anymore.

TestECull:
If you spend money on something you're entitled to get your money's worth out of that something, and if that something doesn't live up to expectation you're entitled to a refund. They do this on fucking TV dinners for fuck's sake. I can get a refund on a $1.99 Stouffers Mac'n'Cheese dinner if I don't like it, but getting one on a $60 game isn't right?!

But won't you think about the poor CEOs at EA, how the hell are they supposed to finish goldplating their vacation homes if you want your money back after buying a horrible product, you evil person. And how are they supposed to charge you even more if you realize that you have rights as a consumer? What madness is this you are talking of?

distortedreality:

shadow skill:

distortedreality:

Better yet - stop whinging, start a class action lawsuit, take EA to court for false advertising and whatever other grievance there is.

That way people can be officially told that they don't have a leg to stand on, and we can all move on without hearing this sort of shit (until the next "crisis"). People need a firm dose of reality, and the only way they'll get that is to step away from their keyboards and put their money where their mouths are.

The reality is that the game didn't do what it was supposed to do for many people in a properly functioning market they would be able to and would receive all or a large percentage of the money they spent back from any and all retailers. Assuming of course that they returned the item in a reasonable amount of time. That this isn't the case across the board shows what is wrong with the market. The publisher is essentially able to take money and run.

The game works - that's the only recourse for a refund in most industries.

The only industry where I can think of where returning something just because you don't like part of it is (somewhat) acceptable is the food/hospitality industry. But even then you wouldn't be able to return a meal after you've eaten it all.

The reason that this doesnt work for food is that the food is gone. The retailer/manufacturer can't get the food back. For physical objects being defective is not nessecarily the only reason that you may return something. The fact that many places don't allow you to return software and such is a sign of an imperfect market system not that wanting to do so is wrong on the part of the customer.

TestECull:

If I buy a car that runs like absolute shit I'm well within my rights to take it back to the dealer and tell them where they can shove it. But if I buy a game that's absolute shit I'm an entitled twat to expect the same refund?! What kind of bass-ackwards logic is that?

That would only make sense in this situation if the car worked perfectly fine, but made a funny noise whenever you put it in park.

If you spend money on something you're entitled to get your money's worth out of that something, and if that something doesn't live up to expectation you're entitled to a refund. They do this on fucking TV dinners for fuck's sake. I can get a refund on a $1.99 Stouffers Mac'n'Cheese dinner if I don't like it, but getting one on a $60 game isn't right?!

If you honestly need that refund on that TV dinner then what the hell are you doing spending $80 on a video game? Nobody could be stupid enough to do that unless they're desperate for money. Getting a full refund on both of those things is ridiculous.

And where the hell do people keep thinking I'm calling them entitled? I never said such a thing, and frankly, I don't agree with it.

Well to be fair many people feel they bought the game based on false advertising from the bioware and EA, they are well within their rights to raise a complaint to their countries trading standards agency, or attempt to seek a refund. whether that complaint is upheld or not will be up to the respective agencies, but it does not make those who wish to complain "stupid" or "whiners".

I like how people in this thread are actually getting upset over Amazon giving refunds.

I mean, really, wtf is wrong with you people?

viranimus:
I worked for Amazon for a very short period of time. In that time however I found that they are more than willing to trade money for good will whenever it is economically feasible. Also as a customer I cannot tell you how many times Ive contacted them simply to find out where my order is only to be refunded my shipping and/or have my order replaced despite not asking for either of those resolutions but specifically asking for them NOT to.

So honestly I dont find this all that surprising from Amazon if it is indeed true.

However, this is a very big problem.

I am normally all for the consumers dictating the actions of corporations. However, this is an example of the consumers creating a dangerous and horrible precedent.

I do not care if the ending of the game is a gay Shepard raping an infant with a rabid Liger bred for its skills and magic, You do not try to force an alteration to an artistic work no matter how much you dont like it.

It would be like demanding Chuck Paluknik rewrite fight club

This is sooo wrong. People pushing this agenda should feel ashamed for what they are doing, and the worst part of it is, Bioware is showing signs of caving to this, and it looks like, if this is true perhaps amazon is too. Again, sets a VERY bad precedent.

Other thought: While were at it, why not force Rocksteady to "fix" the ending of Arkham City. I mean how do you "kill" the Joker in the Batman franchise? You knew they were going to do something they were not supposed to when they gave Batman a sword and a gun. Cmon everyone, all together now~!

tl;dr No one should be encouraging customers to do it regardless of how they felt about it.

You seem to be missing one major point to be had here. Whether art or not, people who bought the game are customers who purchased a product. As a customer, I have a right to raise an absolute stinking fit if I believe that the product I was sold was neither what was advertised, nor of acceptable quality.

Blargh McBlargh:
I like how people in this thread are actually getting upset over Amazon giving refunds.

I mean, really, wtf is wrong with you people?

It got me thinking and I realised that in about a decade of heavy use I have not had one single problem with Amazon.

Great customer service, fast delivery, good prices, I love those guys.

Blargh McBlargh:
I like how people in this thread are actually getting upset over Amazon giving refunds.

I mean, really, wtf is wrong with you people?

How dare people get their money back! Don't they know that the manufactuerer should suffer no consequences for releasing something that they ended up not liking. Instead they should be able to laugh while counting the consumers money.

In the words of a great poet...

QUIT YER BITCHIN!!!

It's nice and all that they are doing this, but they REALLY shouldn't have to.

No matter how you spin it, ME3 is a AAA title with lot's of writing and production value.

If you didn't like the ends those things went to, that's fine. But you don't deserve a full refund for an opened/used product because you think it wasn't an RPG or you weren't satisfied with the ending.

Free game time! whatever you buy from now on play it through then get your money back! Its like rental only free!!!! Better yet keep the online activation codes so when you see a copy dirt cheap 2nd hand buy that instead!!! We as a consumer might never have to actually pay to play a game ever again.

shadow skill:
The fact that many places don't allow you to return software and such is a sign of an imperfect market system not that wanting to do so is wrong on the part of the customer.

No, it's a sure sign of responsibility.

If I buy something, and it's not quite what I expected, or I didn't like it, that isn't the manufacturers fault. It's my fault for not knowing what I was purchasing. I've got every right to whinge about it - but i've got no right whatsoever to demand a full refund on that basis.

If you want to talk solely about the gaming industry - can you really think that devs/publishers will be happy about this? Most of them hate the used game market as it is - if this sort of thing is allowed to happen consistently, it can only mean bad things for the future imo.

As I said earlier, people really need to think about some of the shit that they're sprouting.

MrDeckard:
In the words of a great poet...

QUIT YER BITCHIN!!!

It's nice and all that they are doing this, but they REALLY shouldn't have to.

No matter how you spin it, ME3 is a AAA title with lot's of writing and production value.

If you didn't like the ends those things went to, that's fine. But you don't deserve a full refund for an opened/used product because you think it wasn't an RPG or you weren't satisfied with the ending.

You may deserve a refund if the game was sold to you under false pretenses, which a lot of people are, given the statements made by Bioware/EA in the run up.

acer840:
I don't get any of this. I watched the endings and I don't get all the hate. Why is BioWare getting slayed over the way the make THIER product? I could just see the same people coming to my house to kill me because I painted by fence brown. It's thier product. Thier story and saying that a consumer has power over that destroys IP rights.

I totally agree with you; I just wanted to ask, are you dyslexic?

Because you keep spelling "their" as "thier".

OT: Again, this whole matter is bat-shit insane. Letting these people get refunds will set a stupid precedent:
Where if I saw an add for a movie that said that it is critically acclaimed, that it will bring a smile to my face, blah blah blah, and then I go out to see the movie and on a matter of taste(like the whole ME3 ending controversy), I don't like the movie, I don't find it to be five stars, and it didn't bring a smile to my face, I then can go to the ticket booth and ask for my money back and I will get it.

That is stupid. People need to understand that they need to live with what they pay for.

I under that precedent, other people should equally be in the right for asking for their money back even if they loved the movie. The reason: They saw the same movie that I saw and had to pay for it, while I didn't have to.

So again, this will start a very idiotic precedent. Awesome, I'll never have to pay for a game again. I can play a game and even if I love it, because I know I'll probably never play it again, I can lie that I didn't like it and then get my money back to get another game, then the cycle continues.(Now do you people see how messed up letting this happen is?)

distortedreality:

shadow skill:
The fact that many places don't allow you to return software and such is a sign of an imperfect market system not that wanting to do so is wrong on the part of the customer.

No, it's a sure sign of responsibility.

If I buy something, and it's not quite what I expected, or I didn't like it, that isn't the manufacturers fault. It's my fault for not knowing what I was purchasing. I've got every right to whinge about it - but i've got no right whatsoever to demand a full refund on that basis.

If you want to talk solely about the gaming industry - can you really think that devs/publishers will be happy about this? Most of them hate the used game market as it is - if this sort of thing is allowed to happen consistently, it can only mean bad things for the future imo.

As I said earlier, people really need to think about some of the shit that they're sprouting.

Actually it is the manufacturers responsibility I write software for a living by your definition it is not my problem if bugs are in the software I write or I don't otherwise meet my clients expectations. Except of course it very much is my problem.

If this is true, then I applaud Amazon for a great marketing ploy. So much cheap advertising!

I don't think people realize how good games are going to get if we stop the BS right here, right now. After the stunt Bioware pulled, I can't see another blockbuster series having a rushed/half assed ending. The future is bright indeed.

Thank god for the internet.

Sonic Doctor:

acer840:
I don't get any of this. I watched the endings and I don't get all the hate. Why is BioWare getting slayed over the way the make THIER product? I could just see the same people coming to my house to kill me because I painted by fence brown. It's thier product. Thier story and saying that a consumer has power over that destroys IP rights.

I totally agree with you; I just wanted to ask, are you dyslexic?

Because you keep spelling "their" as "thier".

OT: Again, this whole matter is bat-shit insane. Letting these people get refunds will set a stupid precedent:
Where if I saw an add for a movie that said that it is critically acclaimed, that it will bring a smile to my face, blah blah blah, and then I go out to see the movie and on a matter of taste(like the whole ME3 ending controversy), I don't like the movie, I don't find it to be five stars, and it didn't bring a smile to my face, I then can go to the ticket booth and ask for my money back and I will get it.

That is stupid. People need to understand that they need to live with what they pay for.

I under that precedent, other people should equally be in the right for asking for their money back even if they loved the movie. The reason: They saw the same movie that I saw and had to pay for it, while I didn't have to.

So again, this will start a very idiotic precedent. Awesome, I'll never have to pay for a game again. I can play a game and even if I love it, because I know I'll probably never play it again, I can lie that I didn't like it and then get my money back to get another game, then the cycle continues.(Now do you people see how messed up letting this happen is?)

Hey guess what some cinemas do offer refunds.

shadow skill:
How dare people get their money back! Don't they know that the manufactuerer should suffer no consequences for releasing something that they ended up not liking. Instead they should be able to laugh while counting the consumers money.

I know, right?

I mean, even if the game isn't broken, it clearly wasn't a satisfactory product, as thousands of people have voiced their displeasure. And seeing we have consumer rights, we're legally allowed to ask our money back. :/

xPixelatedx:
I don't think people realize how good games are going to get if we stop the BS right here, right now. After the stunt Bioware pulled, I can't see another blockbuster series having a rushed/half assed ending. The future is bright indeed.

Thank god for the internet.

You severely underestimate corporate greed.

If not another ME3, they'll just make another MW3; the sound of brodudes high-fiving over no-scope kill streaks drowns out the genuine complaints.

All of this hub bub over Mass Effect 3 just makes me wanna say:

shadow skill:

distortedreality:

shadow skill:
The fact that many places don't allow you to return software and such is a sign of an imperfect market system not that wanting to do so is wrong on the part of the customer.

No, it's a sure sign of responsibility.

If I buy something, and it's not quite what I expected, or I didn't like it, that isn't the manufacturers fault. It's my fault for not knowing what I was purchasing. I've got every right to whinge about it - but i've got no right whatsoever to demand a full refund on that basis.

If you want to talk solely about the gaming industry - can you really think that devs/publishers will be happy about this? Most of them hate the used game market as it is - if this sort of thing is allowed to happen consistently, it can only mean bad things for the future imo.

As I said earlier, people really need to think about some of the shit that they're sprouting.

Actually it is the manufacturers responsibility I write software for a living by your definition it is not my problem if bugs are in the software I write or I don't otherwise meet my clients expectations. Except of course it very much is my problem.

No, that wasn't my definition at all. Don't try putting words in my mouth.

If you go back through my comments you'll see that I said if a game is broken on release, then gamers should be entitled to a refund of some sort. ME3 is not a case of that at all. I used the Dead Island example, where the majority of people couldn't reliably save their game. That's a game breaking bug that deserves a refund.

And again, you seem to be a little confused as to who exactly is the client in this situation.

In your example, someone is paying you to produce something, and if you fuck it up, of course that is your problem. None of us who have paid for the game paid for Bioware to produce something - the people that pay their wages do that. The only people that have the right to demand that Bioware do something about this and have an expectation of being obeyed, is their employers, who again, aren't us.

We can complain/plead/whinge/etc all we want - but we should have no real expectations of "demands" being met when we aren't really in a position to make those demands in the first place.

Actually it is what you said don't try and run from it now. Oh and by the way where do you think the money that EA uses to fund Bioware ultimately comes from?

shadow skill:

Sonic Doctor:
snip

Hey guess what some cinemas do offer refunds.

And they are crazy. It is a really stupid business move that can and does get taken advantage of. Keep the money I say, let the consumer learn from what they experienced so that they make better purchases that they end up pleased with.

Sonic Doctor:

shadow skill:

Sonic Doctor:
snip

Hey guess what some cinemas do offer refunds.

And they are crazy. It is a really stupid business move that can and does get taken advantage of. Keep the money I say, let the consumer learn from what they experienced so that they make better purchases that they end up pleased with.

No they aren't its just you that is crazy since you expect people to be clairvoyant.

Sonic Doctor:
That is stupid. People need to understand that they need to live with what they pay for.

Do you even listen to yourself? xD

distortedreality:
We can complain/plead/whinge/etc all we want - but we should have no real expectations of "demands" being met when we aren't really in a position to make those demands in the first place.

Actually that's exactly what being a "consumer" is about, it is rather perplexing that it has gotten to a point that people need to be told that, you can't tell Sheik Abdul or whoever what he can do with his money, but as a consumer you can very well tell a company what to do with about products (since it is you they are getting their money from - see?) or that you don't like the way they are going about their business, especially if you organize like these people have managed to do and have some sort of "movement" behind you.

<headdesks self into oblivion>

I REFUSE to explain why I did that. If you can't figure it out, you need to purge your mind of ME3 for a few hours and think.

shadow skill:
And Snip Again

Well, my "Boss" would be my investor. And the website is the product. And the unhappy poeple viewing the website would be the customer.

Then "EA" is the "Boss" Investor (and Publisher) and BioWare would be Me. Me and my boss agree that the product is satifactory and we believe the customer (You) would be entertained. They are paying watch that word PAYING me to make the product. The customer is making a one off PAYMENT for the product. The PAYMENT is a one off and final for 1 product.

Now if the customer was unhappy with the ENTIRE product, then yes I would say a full refund would be in order. But when the customer has enjoyed the full product except the last 3%, then no. I would not say the customer should be entitled to a refund.

It is equivelent to someone buying an Ipod dock and loving it for days until the realise there was no "Shuffle" option. There was no "Shuffle" option shown on the final product but people feel entitled and say they have the rights to demand thier money back to get a shuffle option included.

Looking at the Box of ME3 (which I have in my hands) there is no writing saying, how the game ends. This is the final product and everything written on the box is true, the advertisements I've seen on TV are true, and what devalopers say, even a month before release can be changed before release. This is why people should go by word of mouth if they feel that the product may not live up to the hype.

Again, this is how the people envisioned the story of Commander Sheppard, and the players shapped the story from the beginning to the end. All of which is true.

Now to return my copy of McBeth because I hated the ending.

Well I am sure they would give full refunds to almost any product if you shouted about how you dont like it loud enough. I returned Tomb Raider angel of darkness because I really didnt like it and I got my money back (this wasnt amazon though).

I would have said that the game wasnt falsely marketed but reading some of Biowares prerelease quotes that have been posted I was quite amazed how they pushed the hype of this game to unattainable levels they were just setting themselves up for a fall TBH.

Kudos to Amazon for actually reaching out and doing something like this I doubt many people will bother taking them up on it but it makes them look good and its almost like a glove to the face of Bioware and EA again (after DA2), stop pissing off customers *swish, swish* lol that must be irritating to happen to you.

Bioware cant really win this now its just going to be damage mitigation there is only so long you can hold out against this sort of pressure especially if more online retailers announce they will do the same. They would have got away with most of the PR bullcrap they spouted if they had made an effort with the ending. Its possible EA pushed this out quicker than Bioware would have liked and as such they had to strip back a lot of their ambition and even rush some things but I may be wrong.

EA and Bioware should take note of this PR move, people are much more likely to continue giving you money if they think they will be looked after and get a good deal its much easier for everyone if companies and people remain amiable to each other rather than have to start reading into the law all the time to see where they stand. It does make me feel as though Amazon are trying to amass goodwill to implement something unpopular or deflect from something they dont want people to know about but im hoping this is just the sceptic in me.

Sonic Doctor:

acer840:
I don't get any of this. I watched the endings and I don't get all the hate. Why is BioWare getting slayed over the way the make THIER product? I could just see the same people coming to my house to kill me because I painted by fence brown. It's thier product. Thier story and saying that a consumer has power over that destroys IP rights.

I totally agree with you; I just wanted to ask, are you dyslexic?

Because you keep spelling "their" as "thier".

OT: Again, this whole matter is bat-shit insane. Letting these people get refunds will set a stupid precedent:
Where if I saw an add for a movie that said that it is critically acclaimed, that it will bring a smile to my face, blah blah blah, and then I go out to see the movie and on a matter of taste(like the whole ME3 ending controversy), I don't like the movie, I don't find it to be five stars, and it didn't bring a smile to my face, I then can go to the ticket booth and ask for my money back and I will get it.

That is stupid. People need to understand that they need to live with what they pay for.

I under that precedent, other people should equally be in the right for asking for their money back even if they loved the movie. The reason: They saw the same movie that I saw and had to pay for it, while I didn't have to.

So again, this will start a very idiotic precedent. Awesome, I'll never have to pay for a game again. I can play a game and even if I love it, because I know I'll probably never play it again, I can lie that I didn't like it and then get my money back to get another game, then the cycle continues.(Now do you people see how messed up letting this happen is?)

Not really dyslexic, just get the I's and E's backwards sometimes. Can go for days on end too -.-

Blargh McBlargh:
I like how people in this thread are actually getting upset over Amazon giving refunds.

I mean, really, wtf is wrong with you people?

One word: Precedent.

Sonic Doctor:

shadow skill:

Sonic Doctor:
snip

Hey guess what some cinemas do offer refunds.

And they are crazy. It is a really stupid business move that can and does get taken advantage of. Keep the money I say, let the consumer learn from what they experienced so that they make better purchases that they end up pleased with.

Thats right! Fuck them dirty consumers. Anythin goes wrong its their fault for not bein informed enough even in cases of false advertisin.

Wait...that doesn't seem right.

On topic, good for Amazon. Its not like it is unprecedented cause they actually have done this stuff before, but aside from that they have probably the absolute best return policy you can ask for. If it weren't for the bad juju with the workers in their shippin facilities I'd say they're one of the best companies out there. As is? One of the best.

Off topic, stop makin your workers work in f'ed conditions Amazon.

shadow skill:
Actually it is what you said don't try and run from it now. Oh and by the way where do you think the money that EA uses to fund Bioware ultimately comes from?

Lol, no, it wasn't. Next time just admit that you misinterpreted what I said. But anyway....

Ok, so yes, a portion of the money that Bioware is paid comes from us, the end user. But again, we are NOT THEIR EMPLOYERS.

Let's go back to your example. You write a piece of software for someone who pays you do so. The people who pay you to do so are happy with the end result, and immediately start selling the software you produced. Should someone who buys that software have the right to complain to you and demand that you change something that they don't like, simply because they own a copy of it?

Take and Windows/Mac Operating System. Should every end user have the right to demand that something that they don't like be changed simply because they own a license? Could you imagine the absolute shitfight that would happen then? Think the Vista uproar x10000000, with no Windows 7 to save us because all the coders are busy fixing the given OS to suit each individual that owns a license.

If you can't see the problem with this, something is inherently flawed in your economics education.

shadow skill:

Sonic Doctor:

acer840:
I don't get any of this. I watched the endings and I don't get all the hate. Why is BioWare getting slayed over the way the make THIER product? I could just see the same people coming to my house to kill me because I painted by fence brown. It's thier product. Thier story and saying that a consumer has power over that destroys IP rights.

I totally agree with you; I just wanted to ask, are you dyslexic?

Because you keep spelling "their" as "thier".

OT: Again, this whole matter is bat-shit insane. Letting these people get refunds will set a stupid precedent:
Where if I saw an add for a movie that said that it is critically acclaimed, that it will bring a smile to my face, blah blah blah, and then I go out to see the movie and on a matter of taste(like the whole ME3 ending controversy), I don't like the movie, I don't find it to be five stars, and it didn't bring a smile to my face, I then can go to the ticket booth and ask for my money back and I will get it.

That is stupid. People need to understand that they need to live with what they pay for.

I under that precedent, other people should equally be in the right for asking for their money back even if they loved the movie. The reason: They saw the same movie that I saw and had to pay for it, while I didn't have to.

So again, this will start a very idiotic precedent. Awesome, I'll never have to pay for a game again. I can play a game and even if I love it, because I know I'll probably never play it again, I can lie that I didn't like it and then get my money back to get another game, then the cycle continues.(Now do you people see how messed up letting this happen is?)

Hey guess what some cinemas do offer refunds.

Yes they do, up untill a certain part of the movie (normally 20 minutes). After that it is too bad. It would be too easy to abuse a system that would allow you to watch an entire movie and get your money back. Cinemas aren't stupid.

Sounds like a nice deal. I wish they did this with Skyrim since the thing didn't even work out of the box. Instead you just get the 'wait until somebody bothers to patch it' note and how I can trade it in.

The precedent already exists, its protected by law, If you buy something as a result of misleading advertising you are entitled to ask for a refund. If the retailer disputes it you can take it further with Trading standards or BBB depending on the country,

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