MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy

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By the way, Bob posted more on Twitter: "The "commissioned art" argument is a new wrinkle - they realize in that analogy EA is the "commissioner," right? Not them?"

He's got it wrong again. EA might have requested that Bioware make Mass Effect 3 to certain guidelines, but the entity that's paying for the game is the PLAYER. Game design is about making the player HAVE FUN. Hell, the #1 design motto for a video game is almost always "How do we make the players have fun?".

In an RPG, the ending is one of the primary factors in whether the game is fun or not. You're striving towards a goal, and when the resolution of that goal is so poorly written and inflexible as ME3, you can be sure that people aren't having fun. The fact that so many fans are petitioning Bioware to change the game PROVES that it wasn't fun. Worse, unlike a FPS or RTS, the final ending of an RPG echoes along the entire length of the gameplay from start to finish. This is why RPGs with incredible endings but mediocre gameplay can be regarded so positively in hindsight, and it's why players go back again and again to play them.

Arthur Conan Doyle didn't bring Holmes back to life because his publishers told him to. He did it because his fans wanted him to. The books were always designed to please his readers, not his editors.

TLDR: Good artistic vision and appealing to your target demographic aren't mutually exclusive, and Bob doesn't get this.

P.S. Can't wait to see his Game Overthinker video. If he can't explain his position using sound logic then I'm done with him.

Chronologist:
By the way, Bob posted more on Twitter: "The "commissioned art" argument is a new wrinkle - they realize in that analogy EA is the "commissioner," right? Not them?"

He's got it wrong again. EA might have requested that Bioware make Mass Effect 3 to certain guidelines, but the entity that's paying for the game is the PLAYER. Game design is about making the player HAVE FUN. Hell, the #1 design motto for a video game is almost always "How do we make the players have fun?".

In an RPG, the ending is one of the primary factors in whether the game is fun or not. You're striving towards a goal, and when the resolution of that goal is so poorly written and inflexible as ME3, you can be sure that people aren't having fun. The fact that so many fans are petitioning Bioware to change the game PROVES that it wasn't fun. Worse, unlike a FPS or RTS, the final ending of an RPG echoes along the entire length of the gameplay from start to finish. This is why RPGs with incredible endings but mediocre gameplay can be regarded so positively in hindsight, and it's why players go back again and again to play them.

Arthur Conan Doyle didn't bring Holmes back to life because his publishers told him to. He did it because his fans wanted him to. The books were always designed to please his readers, not his editors.

TLDR: Good artistic vision and appealing to your target demographic aren't mutually exclusive, and Bob doesn't get this.

P.S. Can't wait to see his Game Overthinker video. If he can't explain his position using sound logic then I'm done with him.

You might as well be done with him ahead of time cuz here's what you're gonna get: I'm right because I'm a highly eduacted East Coast guy and you're unwashed scum who wouldn't know art if it hit you in the face, you all should be rounded up on an island to keep society safe. You're dragging gaming down by making demands of developers and publishers, now we can't make Roger Ebert happy. You all suck, no excuse me while I go down my tenth hot dog of the day.

Fox242:
You all suck, no excuse me while I go down my tenth hot dog of the day.

A fat joke dude?

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally not helping things.

Sentox6:

Bob Chipman:
Congratulations, "Mass Effect" crybabies. You've officially set the entire medium back a DECADE as an art form

I'll just leave this here.

image

Devoneaux:
more stuff

People keep attacking my first paragraph like they couldn't be bothered to read past that. I went on to explicitly detail why his criticism doesn't apply to Mass Effect 3...

dreadedcandiru99:

Sentox6:

Bob Chipman:
Congratulations, "Mass Effect" crybabies. You've officially set the entire medium back a DECADE as an art form

I'll just leave this here.

image

Wow..That's the picture they used?

Would it have been so difficult to snap a picture of the model without a helmet?

Devoneaux:

Wow..That's the picture they used?

Would it have been so difficult to snap a picture of the model without a helmet?

At least they bothered to delete the fourth finger. Sloppily, but still.

Thammuz:

Devoneaux:

Wow..That's the picture they used?

Would it have been so difficult to snap a picture of the model without a helmet?

At least they bothered to delete the fourth finger. Sloppily, but still.

I've used Photoshop twice in my life, and I bet that even I could've done a better job. Also, the final image we see in the game, during the Stargazer dialogue? They apparently stole that from somebody's Deviantart page. And the final Destroy/Control/Merge choice? It bears, shall we say, an uncanny similarity to the final choice from the original Deus Ex.

In other words: "Ah, yes, 'artistic integrity.' We have dismissed that claim."

anthony87:

Fox242:
You all suck, no excuse me while I go down my tenth hot dog of the day.

A fat joke dude?

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally not helping things.

Don't care. After all the uncalled for insults he's hurled at various fanbases, a fat joke is miniscule.

I don't see why people care so much about Bob's opinion. This is the same guy who thinks PC gaming is dead and Mario is the greatest thing since Jesus.

Fusioncode9:
I don't see why people care so much about Bob's opinion. This is the same guy who thinks PC gaming is dead and Mario is the greatest thing since Jesus.

Don't forget thinks anyone who says Other M is sexist and that Piranha 3D is an amazing movie because it has boobies.

Only relatively linear logic is needed to explain the popular consensus on the issue:

Fanbase Develops Creepy Emotional Attachment to Game ->
Fanbase Begins to perceive work of art as their own->
Fanbase is pissed by an ending that doesn't indulge their every expectation->

Lulz are made.

Iszfury:
Only relatively linear logic is needed to explain the popular consensus on the issue:

Fanbase Develops Creepy Emotional Attachment to Game ->
Fanbase Begins to perceive work of art as their own->
Fanbase is pissed by an ending that doesn't indulge their every expectation->

Lulz are made.

*pinches Iszfury's cheeks* You are just too precious! And you remind me of my younger days, before I learned how to truly troll. Ah, those were the days... wow, those were the days when Netscape was the cutting edge of internet browsing, and my computer (a Macintosh PowerPC, I think) was just barely powerful enough to run it. Had a 28.8 modem, and had to dial into my university's remote access line just to access their text based usegroups!

*toodles off, lost in the memories of usegroup trolling. such happy, happy days.*

ME3 set gaming back 10 years? Sweet, some of my favorite games came out in 2002, games that I still play today.

Also his opinion means nothing to me. I've never liked what he's had to say, this is no exception. I am among the group that thought the ending was poorly executed, and I have the right to bitch about that. Bioware was in no way obligated to listen to my bitching, they chose to. If keeping artistic integrity was important to them... well, they wouldn't have used that ending, BUT they certainly did not have to change it. I never had any intention to scream at Bioware that they MUST do something or I will kill their families or... something like that. I just had an opinion. Is that so wrong?

I'm so happy to see this thread isn't locked...
Last time I called Bob out for his bullshit I got yelled at by a mod.
Bob's a loudmouth who gets butthurt anytime someone challenges his perfect little worldview, and He's a lousy film critic to boot. Ever since I saw Sucker Punch on his recommendation, he lost he reviewer credibility, and this twitter debacle is just the latest in a long line of embarrassing and disappointing outbursts from a man who has confused moderate internet notoriety with importance.

Y'know what?
I think it's perfectly reasonable to DISLIKE the ending, but a full-scale internet fundraiser and organized webhate specifically targeted at Bioware is something of an embarrassment to the community. Not only is the effort futile and it would reflect poorly on EA in a business sense to commit to the changes, ME3 IS art. Bob makes a point. Although being sold as a product, is there really any other way to acquire art but in the form of a product? Paintings; music are also "products", acknowledging the means by which we acquire them. Some of the most catastrophic compromises in regards to artistic integrity have been made when artists cave in to common demand. It's silly and childish. I was kind of put off by the ending myself, and can understand the arguments objecting to its quality, but the arguments for its modification or total revamping are lunacy. Art is too multifaceted and subjective for people to qualify a certain aspect of it as being inadequate and deserving of a refund. It just DOESN'T serve a straightforward enough utility. It satisfied you as a whole, did it not? I figure most people here loved the game until the end - so much so that it pissed them off all the worse. For all those complaining, suck it up, and get on with your lives.

And, @ Toko Makt:
Thanks for addressing the topic as opposed to committing ugly ad hominem. Yeah, I was being callous, but you could of at least put me off respectably.

Tono Makt:
[quote="Iszfury" post="9.355624.14145482"]

Double Post, Sorry!

I will no longer support Moviebob in any way for his continued inability to perceive any point of view not his own as holding merit. His continued pompous attitude has lost any notions of respect I had for him. I will no longer watch his videos or read his articles.

Good day.

Fox242:
[quote="Chronologist" post="9.355624.14144350"]

That's disarmingly thoughtful of you to say.
Since when on the internet does disagreeing with somebody instantly connote to scathing hate?
You're all just pissed because he objects to the greater body of your perspectives on the issue. When has that ever not been the case for our demographic? Stop being so haughty and, frankly, assholish, and leave him alone - none of this warrants any kind of personal attack.

bob's also a hypocrite, because he came down (mostly) positive on this EXACT SAME THING in his video's about Green Lantern

If a movie has a shitty ending and the viewing audience doesn't like it then they have the right to voice there dislike about it. Same standard goes for video games. The thing about video games is that you pay way more, invest more time, and are actively involved in the progression of the story of the game so the blow that a horrible ending has on the player after investing ~30 hours into the game (maybe ~90 hours from ME1 to ME3) is going to be much more impactful and create a much bigger backlash.

People have the right to voice there dislike of something as loud as they want to so people take notice. Bob being upset at the ME "fanboys" is ass backwards when we are consumers of the medium. Again if a movie has a horrible ending we voice our opinion so people don't go see the movie and it doesn't sell well, no sequels are made, and the people who made the undesired media are less likely to continue to make more media as it shows people are unhappy with the results of there work (in theory anyway).

Be mad at EA for changing there ending if you want but being upset at people for voicing there opinion is completely toxic to the growth of the industry. The player payed money for the game (in theory), was unhappy with the end results, and can't normally get a refunds. Under these circumstances the best course of action to express your opinion in a way that can impact the future "products" or "works of art" that the industry produces is to be vocal about how you felt. If we are silent then only money talks and the money is going to say "keep doing more of this"

Capcha "know your rights" strangely appropriate.

Personal note: I don't want EA to change the ending but I do want them to know it sucked horribly and will result in them less likely getting my business.

Iszfury:
Fanbase Develops Creepy Emotional Attachment to Game

This is an ad hominem.

Iszfury:
Fanbase is pissed by an ending that doesn't indulge their every expectation

This is a straw man.

Iszfury:
Lulz are made.

This is trolling.

Iszfury:
Thanks for addressing the topic as opposed to committing ugly ad hominem. Yeah, I was being callous, but you could of at least put me off respectably.

This is hypocrisy.

If you want your opinions treated respectfully, you could start by paying others the same courtesy. "Treat others the way you want to be treated" is a rule you're supposed to have learned by the time you're a small child.

Iszfury:
Fanbase Develops Creepy Emotional Attachment to Game

This is an ad hominem.

Excerpt "creepy" and you can't deny that that isn't the scenario. I also developed an "emotional attraction", but that didn't justify sensationalism in the wake of dissatisfaction.

Iszfury:
Fanbase is pissed by an ending that doesn't indulge their every expectation

This is a straw man.

It was an intentional hyperbole, the more grounded version of which isn't really refutable.
The fanbase didn't like it because they wanted otherwise. Call it more of an observation than an attack.

Iszfury:
Lulz are made.

This is trolling.

:)

Iszfury:
Thanks for addressing the topic as opposed to committing ugly ad hominem. Yeah, I was being callous, but you could of at least put me off respectably.

This is hypocrisy.

I admitted I was being callous. I think I noted that I objected to my initial post before requesting the same from him.

If you want your opinions treated respectfully, you could start by paying others the same courtesy. "Treat others the way you want to be treated" is a rule you're supposed to have learned by the time you're a small child.

I followed up with my honest perspective, and, as poor an effort I made to abstain from pathos, at least offered up the opportunity for honest rebuttal. I didn't ask to be regarded in the same way Tono did. I'll watch do make sure I don't snare as many hearts as I did last time, however, you have to admit it isn't a massive throwback from the status quo here, aye? (This is the Escapist)
Sorry, all. Now, on to the issue?

Vankraken:

People have the right to voice there dislike of something as loud as they want to so people take notice. Bob being upset at the ME "fanboys" is ass backwards when we are consumers of the medium. Again if a movie has a horrible ending we voice our opinion so people don't go see the movie and it doesn't sell well, no sequels are made, and the people who made the undesired media are less likely to continue to make more media as it shows people are unhappy with the results of there work (in theory anyway).

Be mad at EA for changing there ending if you want but being upset at people for voicing there opinion is completely toxic to the growth of the industry. The player payed money for the game (in theory), was unhappy with the end results, and can't normally get a refunds. Under these circumstances the best course of action to express your opinion in a way that can impact the future "products" or "works of art" that the industry produces is to be vocal about how you felt. If we are silent then only money talks and the money is going to say "keep doing more of this"

That's actually completely right. Telling Bioware/EA to get their act together is one thing, requesting the personal observance to toy with the minutiae of ME3's narrative is another. If you don't like it, provide the parent company honest objective critique. That's how you get them to maintain artistic integrity. Degrading into personal attacks and all other manners of idiocy like I've seen here and other places, however, is...annoying.

Also, anybody think that this may not be Bioware's fault as much as EA's? I figure that EA might have found the INITIAL not up to their expectations and replaced it with the cookiecutter B$ we ended up getting. Then again, DA2....

Anyone marching into this comment thread and openly declaring that they're never going to watch another piece of media generated by Movie Bob because they disagree with his opinion on X issue, Y issue or Z issue, is doing nothing but publicly confirming the fact that they're a complete idiot. I'm sure Movie Bob is dreadfully sorry that he has accidentally punctured your precious little fortress of solitude that you've built from other people's opinions that reaffirm your own. The entire structure might be a little shaky now that you're unsure about the building materials that you've used in the past, but I'm sure that you will find something to plug the hole.

Also anyone who has seen a movie solely on Movie Bob's recommendation and no other is also a complete idiot. Don't blame Movie Bob for your own stupidity for not properly looking into your own decisions before you make them.

Finally if you are looking for some sort of validation by watching any of Movie Bob's reviews rather than a subjective critique then you are also a complete idiot. Critics do not exist solely to validate your own opinions on media and you are a fool for expecting such. If they were they'd be called something like 'Validators' because they'd be there to validate rather than be called Critics whose position denotes that they do their jobs by critiquing.

Watched his Gameoverthinker about it. Turns out he hasn't really played the Games (I haven't either) and also hasn't taken the time to actually inform himself (I have). Yeah, he doesn't even understand the arguments because he actually has no clue what the actual Ending looks like.

So, anyone else want to argue about how Bob constantly talks about things he knows nothing about?

Chronologist:
By the way, Bob posted more on Twitter: "The "commissioned art" argument is a new wrinkle - they realize in that analogy EA is the "commissioner," right? Not them?"

He's got it wrong again. EA might have requested that Bioware make Mass Effect 3 to certain guidelines, but the entity that's paying for the game is the PLAYER.

Commissioned means paid beforehand. EA gave Bioware the money it needed to start with, the idea being EA makes back the money it paid through the customers. If you want to argue semantics we can go along an endless chain of where money comes from, but the short end of it is the very definition of commission means the money was used to make the product. You, the customer, is making sure they make back that commission, but you provided no financial backing for Bioware to make Mass Effect 3. The customers certainly gave EA the confidence that their investment would make a return with all the purchases of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, but if EA never decides to commission a third game, there is no third game plain and simple. That's why you the customer are not a commissioner, except for in the case of Double Fine's next work.

In an RPG, the ending is one of the primary factors in whether the game is fun or not.

Really? I thought one of the primary factors was, you know, how much fun you're having. It seems a bit odd to withhold judgment on whether or not a game's fun until the end of it, especially considering the HUGE time sinks that RPG's usually are.

You're striving towards a goal, and when the resolution of that goal is so poorly written and inflexible as ME3, you can be sure that people aren't having fun. The fact that so many fans are petitioning Bioware to change the game PROVES that it wasn't fun. Worse, unlike a FPS or RTS, the final ending of an RPG echoes along the entire length of the gameplay from start to finish. This is why RPGs with incredible endings but mediocre gameplay can be regarded so positively in hindsight, and it's why players go back again and again to play them.

Wait, wait, wait. The ENDING echoes through the ENTIRE game from START to FINISH? And if the ending is bad, then people AREN'T having fun? And people keep playing games if they have awesome endings but shitty gameplay?

Thammuz:
[quote="Ultratwinkie" post="9.355624.14137310"]-snip-

Congratulations, sir, you've just won the Internet.

Bob Chipman is pretty crap at analyzing his chosen medium much less breaking into gaming.

The man's job however is to give opinions. His opinions have no more or less value than ours. He has gone on record already that as supporting Ebert in his opinions on games vs art. This is in spite of the fact that Ebert had to struggle to get movies acknowledged as art in his youth. Hypocrisy much?

Movies change as a result of audience opinion as a matter of the production process. Ever hear of test screenings? You know where they test the finished movie to a select audience to see what works and doesn't before they fully release it? Point being that changing to public opinion is so ingrained in the production process of movie, folks like Bob are blind to it.

He is tolerable on the subject of movies. But don't take him seriously outside of that.

I can't help but wonder what Bob would think if, in the latest Mario game, after having been promised a great emotional resolution to the romantic relationship between the plumber and the pink princess by Miyamoto himself, it is revealed that Mario has been driven mad by ingesting too many mushrooms and sexual frustration. So, after jumping on the large turtle chief's head for the last time, Mario promptly dispatches the serial kidnapper by gouging out his eyes and castrating him, leaving him to bleed to death on the castle floor, before pinning the cock-teasing princess down on his carcass and has his way with her.

At which point Miyamoto tells us, THIS IS CANON NOW! All Mario games led to this moment!

This would of course be in incredibly poor taste (I feel dirty just having typed it) and utterly contradictory to how Mario's character has been presented over the past hundred-something games. Would Bob still attempt to draw false parallels between games as an artform and other mediums, or would he bang the drums of revisionism?

Games have no equivalent. The precedence has already been set. DLCs and patches are already a vital part of games, large and small. Revised endings are not unheard of if deemed necessary by the gaming community that, let's face it, were a vital part of shaping more or less ALL GAMES of the past decade+ to begin with. The internet made sure of that. The interactive nature of the fanbase/developer relationship has already made sure that stuff like this was bound to happen. That does in no way undermine video games as a potential artform, it only makes it unique.

Which is what the world needs; a new unique form of art, and if this is part of the process that will secure the position of video games as that brand new thing, I say EMBRACE IT.

Don't be a grumpy old man, Bob.

Art is art, poetry is poetry, film is film and video games are fucking video games. I couldn't care less what Roger Ebert thinks about video games, he's a film critic. Why are you so eager to please people from another entertainment medium, as log as the fans are happy with the game then who gives a fuck.

Pity to see Bob is one of those near-sighted fools who condemns gamers for pointing out the obvious flaws in an unfinished product.

I absolutely love it whenever Bob stands up and yells about things that he is completely ignorant about.

Leonardo di vinci spent years and years on the mona lisa, and he died without being satisfied with it, Bioware obviously released this product not satisfied with the ending (how could anyone be) it already lost it's artistic intergrety when ea demanded it's release, as such there is nothing wrong with demanding the ending be changed.

Bleh. Both Sides have a Point. Both Sides are acting in a way that is, shall we say, strategically unsound.

The "Outcry" of the Fans is rather stupid because its that, an outCRY. One may argue about this or that, but was all the flaming hatred towards Bioware really necessary? Probably yes, but People should have be more mature in the Arguments. It's the same thing with the Bioware Writer Lady who doesn't play Games. One may argue that this Lady may not discover new Ways of weaving Narrative into the Gameplay if she experiences it, if any at all, during "work and research".
Instead, she got called names. Classy. Please use your Manners when adressing anyone, even if you really do think she's a vulgar word for a female reproductive Organ that begins with "c" and rhymes with "Plant"

On the other hand, People like Moviebob and Spoony have lost all right to complain about Morons who insult People instead of making an Argument. Somehow, Moviebob sees this Fanrage setting back the entire Medium ten years. Apparently, the Fanboyrage turned the "Mona-Lisa" into a coloring Book. That looks like Fanrage to me. So maybe we should stop watching Moviebob's Stuff or we might as well broaden our Horizon by watching every other Fanboy rant about ME3. About the same level of useless.

Spoony trolled People who didn't like the me3 ending because "they don't get it" and are therefore "stupid". Probably not the best Idea to assume that the "stupid" People are going to notice he's trolling. And then he complained that so many People where angry at him. Multiple Layers of trolling. One may think he's enjoying this too much and can never be certain when he has actually a valid Opinion about something or if he's trolling you. Which makes his Opinion rather useless.

Here's the Thing: Bioware said this and that and they didn't deliver. Casey Hudson said there would be no "A,b or c endings" but short of the actual Letters near the three Paths you can take it does look like something he promised wouldn't be there. And then the Possibilities wont matter much.
People should call Bullshit on that.
Bioware has maneuvered themselves in a rather akward Position here. The endings are objectively lacking. Wether you like the ending or not and wether you did like the Fact that Bioware didn't include an Ending where everyone lives in everlasting Happiness or not; the endings lack variety. If there was an ending with Happiness and Sunshine for everyone everywhere to be reached if certain conditions are met and purely optional that would have been better. As it is, we have more variety in the previous ME Games and as improvements go, that isn't all that much.

Bioware Choices now, all of them bad: Make DLC that "repairs" the Ending. Is rather bad because if i bought the full Game, i don't like having to buy the ending extra.

Leave it as is. Also bad, unless you want to make the Videogame equivalent to "Lost" or "Sopranos" and trolling your Fans. The "best" Option in my Opinion because People will eventually stop caring about it.

Does this make it "Art"? Well, no. There is this Indoctrination Theory floating around and for all we know Bioware didn't "cave" and had this thing planed all along to sell the DLC where everything will be explained.

In which Case: Ending of a Trilogy sold separately as DLC? You may think about that whatever you like. I wouldn't like that at all and would take my business elsewhere.

I haven't seen so many prominent commentators of gaming and media miss the mark so hard as i have with this issue. Though Experienced Points and many others hit the nail on the head.

I haven't invested in Mass Effect and i'm not sure if that gives me a fresh outside perspective or i'm out of my depth, but the sequence of events goes like this:

-People pay hundreds of dollars into a franchise they love (3 games plus DLC and other)

-The Bioware/EA promise to give an ending that will close the story very neatly.

-The game ends and the ending is NOTHING of what they promised.

-People get angry and demand Bioware give them what they promised to give in the first place.

-Journalists and commentators start using the word "entitled" without knowing the full details of people anger.

I usually sync up with Bob quite well, but he really needs to look into why people are angry at Bioware before he makes the knee-jerk reactions he did.

Bob should probably read Experienced Points article on it and maybe he'll actually see why people are a bit angry.

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