Ninja Turtles and Art.

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So, there's been a lot of talk going around about Michael Bay and his plans for a Ninja Turtles movie and you know what? That's his ARTISTIC DECISION and you should all gather around and respect his choices where he decides to take the series. Once again, it's his ARTISTIC DECISION and we should all bend over and respect it because it is completely and utter his choice and he shouldn't be challenged or tested on it. If fans wish to rally against a horrible, destructive and awful decision made for something they love, they're not allowed to. Because they're speaking against ART and ART should never be challenged, evaluated or revised by people who care deeply for said ART as it is a true catch all defence with complete and total merit.

And yes, there is a good reason this is in gaming discussion.

Ahhh... I see what you're doing. Clever.

I suppose your argument works better the other way around though. The Ninja Turtles were already someone's 'art' and Michael Bay is fucking with their 'art'.

What you did, I see it, and it's there. Coincidentally the turtles themselves are named after renaissance painters, so it's double art now for a totally legit profound ironic reason you don't understand.

I'm going to be honest here: I really don't have that much of a problem with the alteration. The premise behind the show was always stupid; at least now it's stupid from a different direction.

If he wants to deviate from the source material in a relatively harmless way, good for him.

I knew that movie would suck once I found out Bay was directing it.

ruthaford_jive:
Ahhh... I see what you're doing. Clever.

I suppose your argument works better the other way around though. The Ninja Turtles were already someone's 'art' and Michael Bay is fucking with their 'art'.

The mirage guys sold out, so they can't complain.

I don't know what the big deal is. Let them change the ninja turtles, they're not robbing me of my childhood memories.

It's true that the artistic decisions of his work are his to make, one would imagine TMNT owners would have something to say but those accountants don't really have a clue.
However if we gather around and pay attention / his salary is our decision, not yours OP and not the creators.

And with this mans "artistic" track record it will probably go straight to DVD and from there straight into the bargain bin, I most certainly won't be buying it anywhere else.

Getting real old real quick, especially when you're misrepresenting the point other people have made.

On the topic of turtles, did anyone ever see the original graphic novels? That was some great illustration, awesome style. Think i've still got them around somewhere....

did you just link me to a site named perezhilton.com? What the hell, man?

http://www.tgdaily.com/games-and-entertainment-features/62237-michael-bay-under-fire-for-ninja-turtles-reboot

There. Much better.

Mr.K.:
It's true that the artistic decisions of his work are his to make, one would imagine TMNT owners would have something to say but those accountants don't really have a clue.
However if we gather around and pay attention / his salary is our decision, not yours OP and not the creators.

And with this mans "artistic" track record it will probably go straight to DVD and from there straight into the bargain bin, I most certainly won't be buying it anywhere else.

What? The track record for his movies sell extremely well. I want to know who is going these movies if everyone supposedly hates them. He has doubled the $550 million the studios have invested in the movies. That is a severe case of people saying it sucks and then paying for more.

With this man's "artistic" track record he is going to double the investment again.

Savagezion:
What? The track record for his movies sell extremely well. I want to know who is going these movies if everyone supposedly hates them. He has doubled the $550 million the studios have invested in the movies. That is a severe case of people saying it sucks and then paying for more.

They fall under "so bad its good". However, people are starting to lose patience. Transformers 3 didn't make nearly enough money because of how tired people were of Bay.

The best part about this is that the owners of TMNT are known for pulling license to the franchise from people who aren't up to snuff, regardless of how much money they make. The first game, for example. That made a ton of money, but the powers that be thought it wasn't good enough and gave the license to someone else.

The main issue I have is they are mutants through and through. Hell it even says it in the title "Teenage MUTANT Ninja Turtles". So I suppose we are going to now have "Teenage Alien Ninja Turtles". Then again they are from space so they must not know Ninjutsu, but some other form. They must be "Teenage Alien Terra-Kasi Turtles". Well then again you can also add in that turtles are a terrestrial animal native to earth so you have to cut that part too....

OT: This is like saying that Ewe Bole had artistic rights to screw up every video game movie he has ever been given. When these directors get a hold of established IPs to make into movies they need to drop the notion of changing the story around. This ruins the movie for the fans of the series (usually the top demographic of people going to see a movie based off an established IP) and creates a risk of tearing the continuity for the purposes of making sequels.

You know, I had several reactions reading that post and can't decide which to put in my own, so I'll just put them all down:
1: Gee, I think you're being a little too subtle... I mean I had the hardest time realizing your point.
2: The butthurt... the strawmen... good god it's overwhelming...
3: With all the BOLDED ALL CAPS, you'd THINK this was a COMIC from the NINETIES!
4: Looks like someone is completely missing the point of another post...

OT: Ironically, you're right. Bay has every right to fuck this up. And we have the right to complain, and that doesn't go against anyone's artistic choices. We can try and demand change while it's still being made. And we can still complain once the actual movie comes out. We can also send an actual message by NOT GOING.

Hacks have the right to be hacks. It's just unfortunate for all involved that being a hack can still be profitable, so that their hack-dom can continue actually affecting us.

Doug Walker decided to change the entire name to fit what will actually be in the movie, and came up with "Michael Bay's Racist Alien Big-Boobied Explosions". Sounds about right.

First they came for Transformers, and I did not speak out because I wasn't a Transformers fan.
Then they came for GI Joe, and I did not speak out because I wasn't a GI Joe fan.
Then they came for Nightmare on Elm Street, and I was like "whatevs".
Then they came for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

The analogy sucks. If we don't like a movie don't we just don't watch it? Cuz' that's different to watching it and then complaining and wanting changes.

I can't remember people wanting Uwe Boll to change his movies to conform to the source material. I recall people wanting him to stop making movies (among other suggestions, some of which using stronger language) but I don't recall people going "Yo, Uwe, just tweak it a bit, all right?"

Kasurami:
So, there's been a lot of talk going around about Michael Bay and his plans for a Ninja Turtles movie and you know what? That's his ARTISTIC DECISION and you should all gather around and respect his choices where he decides to take the series. Once again, it's his ARTISTIC DECISION and we should all bend over and respect it because it is completely and utter his choice and he shouldn't be challenged or tested on it. If fans wish to rally against a horrible, destructive and awful decision made for something they love, they're not allowed to. Because they're speaking against ART and ART should never be challenged, evaluated or revised by people who care deeply for said ART as it is a true catch all defence with complete and total merit.

And yes, there is a good reason this is in gaming discussion.

I'd hardly call a Michael Bay film art; it's more like explosion porn, but I agree with your message.

I see what you did there, I don't think it's quite the same though.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Alien Turtles...
It just doesn't have the same ring to it.

I'm more worried about the other changes that may be made. Like the turtles being upstaged by humans and somehow the army gets involved.

I can see it now. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Long ago, there was an invasion by aliens, the government covered it up and now a gawky teenager trying to get into the pants of an emotionally dead young woman finds four new reptilian alien friends. And together they learn about a conspiracy that a shadowy sector of the US government covered up.

It's essentially transformers except with the turtles; they get roughly the same amount of screen time as the transformers did in their movie.

him over there:
What you did, I see it, and it's there. Coincidentally the turtles themselves are named after renaissance painters, so it's double art now for a totally legit profound ironic reason you don't understand.

The Turtles themselves were also a spoof of the heroes of the time, so spoofing the current controversy using the Ninja Turtles carries a certain weight to it.

RatRace123:
I see what you did there, I don't think it's quite the same though.

It really is. It's up to artistic interpretation. Even though it's not his property originally, he has the right to make the movie, even if he's a total hack. Which, by the way, I think he is. The end result is the same, though. If Bioware has the right to make a shitty ending because ARTIST then so does Bay.

If it applies to one, it should apply to both. The alternative is, it should apply to neither.

Realistically, though, artistic expression does not make one immune from criticism or even outside influence.

Honestly, if you're the type of person willing to lay down your hard earned money to see a TMNT movie directed by MICHAEL BAY, then you deserve whatever you get. If a writer or director, especially one with merits as dubious as Michael Bay's, does something that you don't like to a franchise you love, then you have the option of NOT WATCHING THE GODDAMN MOVIE. You don't have to watch it. And if you're so incensed by the ending to some piece of entertainment, then you can do something about that, too. You can write your own awful ending. Its called fan-fiction and its existed for decades for just these kinds of situations.

SaneAmongInsane:

ruthaford_jive:
Ahhh... I see what you're doing. Clever.

I suppose your argument works better the other way around though. The Ninja Turtles were already someone's 'art' and Michael Bay is fucking with their 'art'.

The mirage guys sold out, so they can't complain.

I don't know what the big deal is. Let them change the ninja turtles, they're not robbing me of my childhood memories.

Yeah, I know. I used to love the turtles when I was a kid... and yes this is kind of stupid, but I don't really care all that much. I think I'll survive this crap.

Michel Bay wouldn't know what 'art' was if it fell on him

I think the worst part about this is he had a simple premise. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. By trying to "simply" change their origins to them being aliens, he ruins the mutant, the turtles, and quite possibly the teenage. We don't know these will be teenage aliens. They certainly won't have any reason to talk like human teenagers (and god forbid he tries to update the movie so the turtles talk and act like modern teenagers *shudder*)

Even if he makes it so 4 aliens crash on earth, or hatch on earth and get trained by Splinter (which how is he even going to have Splinter with no ooze?), then he can save the teenage part, but we still have Teenage Alien Ninja Aliens that look slightly like turtles for some reason, but really aren't. It's not a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie at all anymore. Its a whatever the fuck Michael Bay wants to do and get tonnes of money because it vaguely resembles a franchise the movie going population used to like.

It will be terrible.

As for the art thing, in connection to this whole Mass Effect debacle, love it, heh, +1 internets to OP

The title to the movie will have to be changed.

"Man sized turtle looking things of undetermined age from space".

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

It may be his artistic decision, but that doesn't for one second I should have to "bend over and respect" it. He can do whatever he likes, I just won't see the film since he's doing something to TMNT which I think is stupid and unnecessary.

I see TMNT movie in same vain as the certain Xcom game. While it is different take on franchise it doesn't have to end up being bad. Changes fan don't like could make the movie far more successful then what would be possible if giant mutant humanoid turtles part was kept. Maybe with luck though if movie is success a more 'canon' TMNT game could get green light in long run. However it is too soon to see even if movie ever gets made.

Most importantly of all though people could speak with there wallet by not seeing movie if it ever comes out. However that would also mean no pirating, watching online and buying illegal copy from shady street dealer.

I dont have a problem with the new origin story. I mean, aliens already feature pretty heavily in TMNT story. I have more of a problem with Michael Bay making it. What happens if and when he does the same thing to TMNT that he did to Transformers?

shoddyworksucks:
Honestly, if you're the type of person willing to lay down your hard earned money to see a TMNT movie directed by MICHAEL BAY, then you deserve whatever you get. If a writer or director, especially one with merits as dubious as Michael Bay's, does something that you don't like to a franchise you love, then you have the option of NOT WATCHING THE GODDAMN MOVIE. You don't have to watch it. And if you're so incensed by the ending to some piece of entertainment, then you can do something about that, too. You can write your own awful ending. Its called fan-fiction and its existed for decades for just these kinds of situations.

This is good advice. I never saw The Last Airbender for this very reason.

Phuctifyno:
First they came for Transformers, and I did not speak out because I wasn't a Transformers fan.
Then they came for GI Joe, and I did not speak out because I wasn't a GI Joe fan.
Then they came for Nightmare on Elm Street, and I was like "whatevs".
Then they came for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I don't ever give out internets because I used to think it was corny. Now I will Al Gore you a brand new Internet and call it Phuctifyno-net.

... Ok, maybe not that.

My problem with it is this. If you take a franchise and give it a new plot to deal with, I'm cool with that. Hell, I might even love the idea. If I took Harry Potter and changed it that they got their powers from magic to the powers of wishing animals they had to take care of, I'm pretty sure a lot of you would try to kill me... and five of you would tell me to shut up, throw your money in my face and tell me to take it.

So much of the Ninja Turtle lore had to do with them being mutants and Mutagen and the threat of Shredder and Krang getting more or whatever. If I want to see my Ninja Turtles, I want to see them for what made them great for me. Sounds self entitled? Not so much. Because these movies are specifically being made for people like me who grew up and loved them. They are counting on my old love for the series to line their pockets. And yours too. But then they say 'oh yeah, we're changing fundamental things about it. Still give us your money, though.'

.. Yeah, no.

We must see this movie. Racist Alien Boobie Explosions is fun for the whole family.

Since the original creators pretty much gave Bay full permission to mess with their work, I'm guessing there's not much more to be done about it. But, can you still call this a TMNT movie? The radical foursome being mutants is a big part of the mythos. Hell it one quarter of the franchise's name.

Then ... Teenage Alien Ninja Turtles?

chimpzy:
Since the original creators pretty much gave Bay full permission to mess with their work, I'm guessing there's not much more to be done about it. But, can you still call this a TMNT movie? The radical foursome being mutants is a big part of the mythos. Hell it one quarter of the franchise's name.

Then ... Teenage Alien Ninja Turtles?

No, no. You need to take the Mutant out and leave Teenage Ninja Turtles or T.N.T.

Oh man, that was so subtle that I almost missed it...

Artistic license doesn't mean anything.

If you make something terrible, being 'art' doesn't suddenly give it an infallible defense.

The Ooz that makes them special to this turtles aparently is from outer space.... I reallly don't se the problem right now... not happy with it.. but you know maybe it would it be easier if they put a mad scientist doing that stuff for experiments or something.

Daystar Clarion:
Oh man, that was so subtle that I almost missed it...

Not sure if serious. Hopefully not serious. I was far more wanting people to get what I was going for and not take it as a literal defence of a Michael Bay fi -

Scrustle:
It may be his artistic decision, but that doesn't for one second I should have to "bend over and respect" it. He can do whatever he likes, I just won't see the film since he's doing something to TMNT which I think is stupid and unnecessary.

...Ah.

Forlong:

Savagezion:
What? The track record for his movies sell extremely well. I want to know who is going these movies if everyone supposedly hates them. He has doubled the $550 million the studios have invested in the movies. That is a severe case of people saying it sucks and then paying for more.

They fall under "so bad its good". However, people are starting to lose patience. Transformers 3 didn't make nearly enough money because of how tired people were of Bay.

The best part about this is that the owners of TMNT are known for pulling license to the franchise from people who aren't up to snuff, regardless of how much money they make. The first game, for example. That made a ton of money, but the powers that be thought it wasn't good enough and gave the license to someone else.

Ah, I have never been one to understand the "so bad it's good" mentality. Once something hits the proverbial "So bad I don't want to waste hours of my life on that crap" line in the sand, there are no new lines that form. Starship Troopers and movies such as that have redeeming qualities that keep it from crossing that line and stays in "good enough". "The Room", I will never understand the following.

Transformers 3: I forgot to specify that Michael Bay doubled the studio's money just in the US theatres. Transformers 3 by itself made over a billion dollars off $195m budget worldwide. Transformers 3 made more money than 2, 2 made more than 1, and 1 made its money back x5. So really, the market suggest they are getting better. Transformers 4 has already been greenlit. The consumers aren't voting with their wallet. Michael Bay fascinates me as everyone complains about him, but somebody is out there buying his shit so much that it contends for sales records.
My conclusion is that there is a lot of 'closet' Bay fans. You don't break records with nerd culture memorabilia like transformers without having a lot of the nerds backing you up with some sales.

EDIT: Holy crap, got a bit confused and posted a response for another thread in here.

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