Why I think the ME3 fans are actually mad

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JediMB:
Just like it's easy to forget that the whole scenario of the Citadel being moved to the Sol system doesn't make any sense

I don't find it that unreasonable, there was nothing that ever indicated it couldn't be moved.

SajuukKhar:

KingofMadCows:

Also, when the Collector base was destroyed, Harbinger says to the Collector General, "we will find another way." Another way to do what? Clearly the Collectors were supposed to be a part of the Reaper's plan but I guess Mass Effect 3 just forgot about that.

The Collectors were ordered to start the reproduction cycle early so they could get the new reaper done faster, and to find ways to weaken the other races, which is why they studied them so much.

The Reaper's saying "finding another way" is them talking about making the new reaper, and finding new ways to weaken the races and or get things to fight the races with.

Which they did with the Rachni queen, and the whole asari mutant spawner etc. etc.

that seemed kinda obvious.

Except none of that turned out to be important.

The Collectors still needed millions of humans to complete the Reaper so they wouldn't have gotten it done before the Reaper fleet arrived. Even if they did, one extra Reaper wouldn't have made a difference.

It's true the Collectors gathered data on the various races but again, it wouldn't really matter after the Reapers arrived since the Reapers could just do it themselves.

The fact that, as you mentioned, the Reapers were easily able to enslave the Rachni queen, create Asari husks, brutes, etc. without the help the Collectors suggests that the Reapers didn't really need the Collectors.

However, Harbinger telling the Collector General that the Reapers "will find another way" implies that it was something important to the Reaper's plans, something that the Reapers actually needed the Collectors to do, and that the destruction of the Collectors was as significant setback for the Reapers as the destruction of Sovereign. The fact that none of that mattered in Mass Effect 3 made the main story of ME2 kind of pointless. That seems kind of obvious.

JediMB:
But, yes, it's easy to forget about the Thessia climax because of how the ending turned out. Just like it's easy to forget that the whole scenario of the Citadel being moved to the Sol system doesn't make any sense, and that the introduction of the Crucible was questionable to begin with... even if it hadn't degenerated into a nonsensical retcon Deus Ex Machina.

You had to know there was going to be a Deus Ex Machina in there somewhere. The Reapers were too big and bad of a threat to be able to be defeated with anything less.

KingofMadCows:

Mr.Tea:

KingofMadCows:
I think a lot of fans are upset that Bioware sort of tried to reset franchise after they finished Mass Effect 2.

[Snip]

The non-existent preparedness of the galaxy is partly explained: Apart from no one wanting to officially believe (read: publicly endorse) the soul crushing theory (it was theory to everyone but Shepard) of the Reapers actually existing and coming, Shepard had to surrender herself and the Normandy SR2 to the Alliance for associating with Cerberus and just generally having to answer for all the Jack Bauer/A-Team shit pulled while operating outside the law (most notably: crashing an asteroid into a mass relay and killing 300,000+ Batarians in the process).

As for the Reapers, you're right. Why mess with the established fact that they're just all coming slowly but surely from dark space? Why contrive a scenario wherein you stop them speeding up their return, just to return that status quo? But it was just DLC, and Shadow Broker was fucking awesome, so it could be excused.
It did however set the very interesting precedent that destroying a mass relay would eradicate a star system, which itself got fucked with in ME3's ending.

If only the ending had been well done and satisfying, it would be easy to forget about such minor fumbles in an otherwise excellent experience... If only...

But that completely goes against Mass Effect 2. ME2 was all about how even though no one else believed in the Reaper threat or the Collector threat, Shepard does and so does her team.

Success against the Collectors should only serve to strengthen their resolve and their belief in the mission to stop the Reapers. The ending of ME2 clearly implies that Shepard and her team are preparing for the Reaper invasion. Whether or not they can rally others to their cause is open to question but Shepard and her team should be prepared.

Having "The Arrival" break up the team and force Shepard back to earth just completely ruins the ending of ME2 and the significance of the suicide mission against the Collectors.

But that's the thing, no one sees the suicide mission. Even if you save the base, it's Cerberus that gets it and even then only the Normandy has the IFF needed to trigger the Omega-4 relay correctly (and EDI only activates it properly without getting infected because she has reaper code herself).
Point is, no one else gets proof. You're just one team. Dozen people, 2 or 3 if you include the ship crew.
The team believes in you and you've certainly made a small bunch more people around the galaxy believe too, but what I was saying is that none of the galactic governments really want to publicly acknowledge the Reapers and no one who believes in you, not even Anderson and Hackett, can change that fact. I also said "partly explained"; I agree that it's a little dumb and was practically yelling at the screen myself when my Shepard was dragged into a hearing minutes before the Reaper invasion.
But it's all excusable. Even right now, on this earth, we have a hard time imagining what it really entails to keep an entire country running efficiently or to mediate countries on the global stage; can we even fathom doing that on a galactic scale? Even in ME1, Garrus never fails to mention how bureaucracy is so much sand in the wheel of things. It's sad that no one takes your universe-threatening story seriously enough to really commit what's needed, but I have no trouble imagining it. It is, after all, in ME2 that the council tells you "Ah yes, the Reapers. A race of sentient warships allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed that claim." And he says that after pieces of Sovereign rained all over the Citadel. Also, it's only because Hackett believed in you and he's pretty much the head of the Alliance Military that the Human fleet was even in any state of alert, however ineffective that turned out to be.

As for surrendering, Shepard demonstrates being Alliance Military at heart (you were Commander Shepard even before ME1) so it's not much of a stretch that he/she'd choose to submit peacefully and, of course, let them fully recover the Normandy SR2. Shepard's hope was probably to show goodwill and try to convince them, but it's a still a bureaucratic nightmare that your faithful squad can't change. So instead of stranding them all on earth, they all went their own way to their thing and without any kind of time frame as to how long does it take for a Reaper to actually fly into the galaxy from dark space (no one knows how fast reapers are or, more importantly, how far they really were), who can blame them? Maybe they figured they had at least a year.

I wish this was the most debate fans would be having over ME3 right now; This kind of healthy debate/discussion is great for a series like ME, but all of these minor inconsistencies are rendered insignificant compared to the orders-of-magnitude worse ones at the very end...

SajuukKhar:

JediMB:
Just like it's easy to forget that the whole scenario of the Citadel being moved to the Sol system doesn't make any sense

I don't find it that unreasonable, there was nothing that ever indicated it couldn't be moved.

Thing is, there's no explanation for it. The whole incident is just layer upon layer of unexplained events.

How did the Reapers take control over the Citadel to begin with? It's basically indestructible, and impregnable when the wings are closed... and I just don't buy that they'd let the Reapers get inside the way Sovereign did, since they actually know about the Reaper threat in advance now. We can speculate, but even the most obvious answer (The Illusive Man) doesn't really make sense when you consider how he was presented in the final confrontation.

The Citadel is a huge Mass Relay. Way too actually travel through the regular Mass Relay network. So how would it move? Via a secret FTL drive? Even with the Reapers' advanced FTL drives (which are about twice as effective as the organics' drives) it would take at least a couple of years to travel from the Serpent Nebula to the Local Cluster.

And why would they move the Citadel to begin with? What was the strategic advantage? They certainly wouldn't have the time to do anything useful with it, and its impregnable nature would make it quite safe to simply leave it in the Serpent Nebula with a few of their agents onboard. Moving it to Earth and setting up a Conduit (which for some reason doesn't require a receiver, and sends passengers straight to a secret control room) is basically the Reapers exposing their throats and asking the organics to go for it.

Yes, I know, the Citadel's re-localization had an explanation in the Dark Energy ending that ended up not making it into the game. But the least they could do in this sorry excuse for an ending is let Shepard question it, as a form of Lampshade Hanging: acknowledge that it's an irregularity, and then move on.

JediMB:

Therumancer:
You'll notice everyone seems to skirt around the issue of "Leng" when it's brought up.. Leng being an incredibly poorly written and designed character that does not fit in with the game, and who winds up beating Shepard in fights after losing the boss battle "JRPG style" in order to move the plot along in sequences that are even worse than quicktime events. That's not good writing, and it's not good game design and as several of the biggest "money moments" in the game rely on this, the game really deserved to get slammed for that in the ratings even before the ending. With ME3 it's probably most fair to say that the writig for the supporting stories and lesser plot events was excellent, but the major plot points and central structure, including the ending, was absolutly horrendous. Bioware blew not just the ending, but the whole bit at the end of Thessia that acted as the climax for Act 2, that only doesn't get more criticism because the actual finale was just so much worse.

I can definitely agree in principle that games shouldn't be doing "failure-through-cutscene" boss battles anymore. It was at least mildly annoying in Final Fantasy IX (and really frustrating if you were attempting to steal all the goodies Beatrix was carrying on her), and creative developers should have no problem coming up with alternative scenarios.

That said, I think the Kai Leng thing worked because it made me hate the character even more, and that sort of drowned out my feelings on the game mechanic itself. That's why it was so goddamn satisfying to finally kill him off in the Cerberus base.

But, yes, it's easy to forget about the Thessia climax because of how the ending turned out. Just like it's easy to forget that the whole scenario of the Citadel being moved to the Sol system doesn't make any sense, and that the introduction of the Crucible was questionable to begin with... even if it hadn't degenerated into a nonsensical retcon Deus Ex Machina.

In my case I really couldn't bring myself to hate the character as much as being annoyed by him. Just the way he dresses doesn't really fit into the game, he looks like a character from an entirely differant franchise. Walking around in some kind of pseudo tech-ninja outfit that screams "hi I'm an assasin" carrying a couple of swords isn't exactly subtle and it makes me wonder how the guy even gets by, I mean he can't be cloaked all the time, and what does he do, change outfits constantly, or are we supposed to accept that everyone is even more oblivious than the average "Assasin's Creed" game. I mean at least with Shepard you at least have the excuse that the guy was Alliance Special Forces/Black Ops (N7) and then became a Spectre who is basically above the law, what's more pretty much everyone DOES recognize him so it's not like your exactly supposed to be doing the stealth thing... and your not an assasin. :)

Leng is just totally lulzworthy as a character, and then there is all the writing I mentioned.

Otherwise your right, the bit with The Citadel makes no sense. It's almost like The Reapers wanted to risk destruction. I mean they bring it to the one place where the super weapon that requires it to destroy them happens to be, and then put it on top of the giant transport beam... like they didn't have any other corpse harvester ships before this. I admit I was going "WTF" there as well. I couldn't figure out why anyone would do that.

See if I was the Reapers and I had just gotten the Citadel, I'd want to put it someplace well away from the guys I was fighting. I mean even if I didn't know about The Cruicible, I figure I want to hold onto that to use as bait for the next cycle since its part of the plan.

Not to mention that I felt a whole section of the game was missing. A lot of the little side activities revolved around "The Citadel Defense Force" and it's readiness for an attack. I got the impression there was supposed to be another battle there, and actuall expected to find more of an explanation after hitting the beam, and people still fighting the Reapers inside, with those desicians starting to pay off other than a war asset.

To be honest I cannot fathom how The Reapers managed to take "The Citadel" in this case, especially that quickly as in "oh hey, they just captured it in 15 minutes and are bringing it to eath for the finale". See, they could probably beat the space forces, but to get control of The Citadel that way they have to get inside, and in this case The Citadel would be ready for once unlike the surprise attacks by Saren and Cerberus. The Reapers *do* have a problem fighting troops on the ground and would be in a position of trying to take it over by sending in cannibals/marauders/husks/etc... and in the process be fighting bunches of military personel, C-sec, the bloody spectres (they have an office there), not to mention either a militia or a hugely armed population.... I just can't see it happening that quickly when they were ready (and not being ready was the key issue during the previous invasions).

I also didn't care for how the game made me assemble all these war assets but then they didn't figure into the game events. For example the battles shown seemed to show the Reapers stomping all over everyone, yet I managed to recover/develop things like Javelin missles which are supposed to be effective against Reapers (I'd have to check, but I seem to remember they are basically Dark MAtter/Singularity warheads) not to mention that my readiness which is expanding those war assets had me "pushing the Reapers Back" due to being at 100%. Basically come the finale, I was supposed to be winning, with them losing key locations and getting run off. It even says so when I load the game. Amazing how Bioware put that in, and then doesn't bother to take it into account for the finale, making me wonder at the point. When it comes to writing, they shouldn't let something like that be defined, and then proceed to just ignore it.

What I found funny was just how stupid and simplistic the Reapers truly were.

"Hay, guize, I got the Citadel here now. What? You want me to put a space elevator down on Earth so bodies can be beamed up to make a new Reaper? WELL OKAY! I can't see how just not making the new Reaper and simply roflstomping the other races as we were doing could work better, so I'll just put this space elevator down here now.

Unguarded.

Even though we know the only organic to ever kill us is still out there, and has sworn to come back to take vengeance on us."

Mr.Tea:
But that's the thing, no one sees the suicide mission. Even if you save the base, it's Cerberus that gets it and even then only the Normandy has the IFF needed to trigger the Omega-4 relay correctly (and EDI only activates it properly without getting infected because she has reaper code herself).

Then how did TIM plan to gain access to the Collector base? How did TIM gain access to the Collector base?

Point is, no one else gets proof. You're just one team. Dozen people, 2 or 3 if you include the ship crew.
The team believes in you and you've certainly made a small bunch more people around the galaxy believe too, but what I was saying is that none of the galactic governments really want to publicly acknowledge the Reapers and no one who believes in you, not even Anderson and Hackett, can change that fact. I also said "partly explained"; I agree that it's a little dumb and was practically yelling at the screen myself when my Shepard was dragged into a hearing minutes before the Reaper invasion.
But it's all excusable. Even right now, on this earth, we have a hard time imagining what it really entails to keep an entire country running efficiently or to mediate countries on the global stage; can we even fathom doing that on a galactic scale? Even in ME1, Garrus never fails to mention how bureaucracy is so much sand in the wheel of things. It's sad that no one takes your universe-threatening story seriously enough to really commit what's needed, but I have no trouble imagining it. It is, after all, in ME2 that the council tells you "Ah yes, the Reapers. A race of sentient warships allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed that claim." And he says that after pieces of Sovereign rained all over the Citadel. Also, it's only because Hackett believed in you and he's pretty much the head of the Alliance Military that the Human fleet was even in any state of alert, however ineffective that turned out to be.

It would have been really stupid for Shepard not to get pictures and scans of the Collector base or gather technology and wreckage after they came back from the explosion so they have plenty of evidence.

Also, the governments may not believe but that doesn't prevent Shepard and his team from spreading the truth and gathering more support. Shepard would have much more support now that he stopped the threat of the Collectors. Plus they already have support from individuals in governments or other positions of power.

As for surrendering, Shepard demonstrates being Alliance Military at heart (you were Commander Shepard even before ME1) so it's not much of a stretch that he/she'd choose to submit peacefully and, of course, let them fully recover the Normandy SR2. Shepard's hope was probably to show goodwill and try to convince them, but it's a still a bureaucratic nightmare that your faithful squad can't change. So instead of stranding them all on earth, they all went their own way to their thing and without any kind of time frame as to how long does it take for a Reaper to actually fly into the galaxy from dark space (no one knows how fast reapers are or, more importantly, how far they really were), who can blame them? Maybe they figured they had at least a year.

But why even have that DLC at all. Why not just have ME3 follow the ending of the main ME2 story? Why not have ME3 begin with Shepard's team intact going around the galaxy gathering support to prepare for the Reapers? That way, even if the Collectors weren't important, the fact that they brought the team together and created the impetus for them to gather support would have made the main ME2 story significant.

Heck, even if they follow the DLC, why split the entire team apart? Why not have the team stay together and continue the mission without Shepard? Why didn't they all stay in contact while gathering support so they can help each other?

Lack of respect? no. After playing the rest of the game I can't agree with that. If the entire game was a cheap cash in that barely acknowledged the previous two, maybe, but as it stands 99% of the game is wonderful and deep and veterans of the series get some truly brilliant moments for their trouble.

The only source of anger is the ending, and the fact it was leagues worse than any conclusion I've played including the cel-shaded Prince of Persia which was my previous title-holder. It made no sense, made the reapers seem like idiots (more than ME2's ending even), essentially destroyed the entire galaxy I'd sunk so much time into and essentially meant for all Shepard had accomplished, everyone would be better off letting the reapers win. The reapers wouldn't have destroyed the mass relays, and would've left pirimitive races as survivors. Instead I turned each relay housing star system into a giant ball of fire, and the survivors were unable to go anywhere afterwards. The reapers would have called me a monster.

That is an insanely bad way to end a beloved trilogy. If Bioware didn't respect me, they'd have made an anticlimactic sequel hook, not systematically destroyed everything I'd sunk hundreds of hours working for. You have to work hard to make something this terrible.

RafaelNegrus:
To start with, I am a big Mass Effect fan, but since I lost my saves and need to replay the first two to get my Shepard back I did not buy ME3 at the beginning, and then I started hearing the news, as all of us have.

I think this issue comes down to more than just the ending, even though most people admit that the ending is terrible. I think the reason this has been so bad, and gone on for so long, is a sense of a lack of respect.

There's a sense of a lack of respect from Bioware itself, that it rushed a bad ending in its game and that it may very well try to sell DLC to make it better. This impression is not improved from Bioware statements that they would not do exactly what they did, or by putting out day 1 DLC.

But that's not the reason this flame war has gone on since the game has come out. This has continued, in my mind, because fans legitimate critiques have been openly derided by the gaming media, in what some have called a conspiracy and what I think is more likely to be just an emotional disconnect with fans.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/03/22/gaming-journalisms-problem-isnt-being-beholden-to-companies/

Instead of getting statements along the lines of "yes, the ending was bad for reasons X,Y, and Z" fans got called entitled and derided as immature children. Yes, some of them have acted like that but in characterizing the entire group as acting like that gaming journalism has gone too far. And if fans are getting disrespected by the mainstream media, gaming companies, AND gaming media, why shouldn't they be mad about that?

There are many people who say the attacks against Bioware threaten gaming as an art form, all the while claiming that we as gamers should seek no validation from non-gamers. I don't think validation from non-gamers is necessarily all that important, but I think respect from within the gaming community in general IS. Because if game companies are going to just treat us like walking wallets, then why should we treat them as artists? And if game journalism doesn't watch out for consumers against the exploitations of the companies, why shouldn't we think that the two are in league together?

This is the best post about this issue I have had the good graces to read in, well, what has it been? Two or three weeks now? I honestly lost track of how long this has gone on.

Honestly, I got over the ending, I hit a point where I just accepted it as the dreck it was and moved on. Yet, then, we have people like MovieBob move from defending Bioware to outright bashing the fans with baseless generalizations, and I'm suddenly pissed again. Apparently, if you didn't like the ending, you must be against art, and of course you want it changed, because you can't just, you know, not like the ending.

*sigh* This issue certainly seems to have opened a whole can of worms in the community, that much is for sure.

Buretsu:

JediMB:
But, yes, it's easy to forget about the Thessia climax because of how the ending turned out. Just like it's easy to forget that the whole scenario of the Citadel being moved to the Sol system doesn't make any sense, and that the introduction of the Crucible was questionable to begin with... even if it hadn't degenerated into a nonsensical retcon Deus Ex Machina.

You had to know there was going to be a Deus Ex Machina in there somewhere. The Reapers were too big and bad of a threat to be able to be defeated with anything less.

They really didn't need a Deus Ex Machina, because they had already introduced the Crucible as the game's driving plot device and the Catalyst/Citadel as the MacGuffin needed for it to work.

They could have done pretty much anything with the Crucible, but they chose to change the rules at last minute.

Not to mention that Shepard had assembled the largest fleet the galaxy had ever seen. Reapers were falling the very moment the fleet opened fire on them. The current cycle had an advantage never before seen, thanks to the Protheans' legacies and the destruction of Sovereign.

* * *

Think about it for a minute... the Crucible was constructed as a weapon against the Reapers. A weapon that is supposed to use the Catalyst/Citadel as a stabilizing component needed for it to work properly. It's designed to be a weapon, but The Illusive Man believes it can also be used to control the Reapers. So what manner of weapon can it possibly be with those two possible uses?

The Illusive Man also believed that indoctrination was the secret to controlling the Reapers. That the very thing that allows them to control their forces can be used to control them instead. Do you see the connection there?

The Crucible was an ambitious project (by the Protheans and races that preceded them) to disrupt Reaper indoctrination, and possibly even communication between the Reapers themselves. We were shown multiple times that the Protheans had studied indoctrination to the point where they had technology able to detect it. Working on a way to disrupt it is the logical way to proceed from there.

KingofMadCows:

Except none of that turned out to be important.

The Collectors still needed millions of humans to complete the Reaper so they wouldn't have gotten it done before the Reaper fleet arrived. Even if they did, one extra Reaper wouldn't have made a difference.

It's true the Collectors gathered data on the various races but again, it wouldn't really matter after the Reapers arrived since the Reapers could just do it themselves.

The fact that, as you mentioned, the Reapers were easily able to enslave the Rachni queen, create Asari husks, brutes, etc. without the help the Collectors suggests that the Reapers didn't really need the Collectors.

However, Harbinger telling the Collector General that the Reapers "will find another way" implies that it was something important to the Reaper's plans, something that the Reapers actually needed the Collectors to do, and that the destruction of the Collectors was as significant setback for the Reapers as the destruction of Sovereign. The fact that none of that mattered in Mass Effect 3 made the main story of ME2 kind of pointless. That seems kind of obvious.

They were never intended to finish before the Reapers arrived, only get a head start.

Secondly again they were getting data TO GET A HEAD START, sure the Reapers COULD have just got all the data on the races themselves but when you cold get others to do it for you before you get there NOT taking advantage of that would be stupid.

Actually no, it doesn't imply importance, it implies they will do something else to get the same result. Your extrapolating nonexistent importance out of a quote that doesn't imply any sort of real importance beyond "now we will have to do ourselves what you could have done for us before we got there".

SajuukKhar:

KingofMadCows:

Except none of that turned out to be important.

The Collectors still needed millions of humans to complete the Reaper so they wouldn't have gotten it done before the Reaper fleet arrived. Even if they did, one extra Reaper wouldn't have made a difference.

It's true the Collectors gathered data on the various races but again, it wouldn't really matter after the Reapers arrived since the Reapers could just do it themselves.

The fact that, as you mentioned, the Reapers were easily able to enslave the Rachni queen, create Asari husks, brutes, etc. without the help the Collectors suggests that the Reapers didn't really need the Collectors.

However, Harbinger telling the Collector General that the Reapers "will find another way" implies that it was something important to the Reaper's plans, something that the Reapers actually needed the Collectors to do, and that the destruction of the Collectors was as significant setback for the Reapers as the destruction of Sovereign. The fact that none of that mattered in Mass Effect 3 made the main story of ME2 kind of pointless. That seems kind of obvious.

They were never intended to finish before the Reapers arrived, only get a head start.

Secondly again they were getting data TO GET A HEAD START, sure the Reapers COULD have just got all the data on the races themselves but when you cold get others to do it for you before you get there NOT taking advantage of that would be stupid.

Actually no, it doesn't imply importance, it implies they will do something else to get the same result. Your extrapolating nonexistent importance out of a quote that doesn't imply any sort of real importance beyond "now we will have to do ourselves what you could have done for us before we got there".

Really? So you're not supposed to think that the main quest of a 30 hour game that's in the middle of a trilogy is important to the overall plot of the series? Yeah, that makes sense.

Smeggs:
What I found funny was just how stupid and simplistic the Reapers truly were.

"Hay, guize, I got the Citadel here now. What? You want me to put a space elevator down on Earth so bodies can be beamed up to make a new Reaper? WELL OKAY! I can't see how just not making the new Reaper and simply roflstomping the other races as we were doing could work better, so I'll just put this space elevator down here now.

Unguarded.

Even though we know the only organic to ever kill us is still out there, and has sworn to come back to take vengeance on us."

LOL, I never thought about that. There is so much stuff wrong with the end I probably missed more than that one too. That one is pretty funny though.

Daystar Clarion:

Fappy:

Daystar Clarion:

Shit, is this playing out like an accelerated version of Mass Effect?

As the first to discover their motives, that must mean I'm Commander Shep-awwww shit.

I guess that makes me Liara....

Question: can Asari masturbate?

>.>

Don't get any funny ideas.

Where's Garrus? I was promised that there would be a Garrus.

Well, in that case, guess that makes me Wrex.

...Cause I'll be damned if I'm gonna be stuck being Kaiden.

KingofMadCows:
Then how did TIM plan to gain access to the Collector base? How did TIM gain access to the Collector base?

We, like Shepard's crew in ME3, can only really speculate on what exactly happens to a ship that passes through the Omega-4 relay without an IFF module.

It's quite possible that ships entering were torn apart when every single laser-eyed drone hovering around the relay attacked at once. These security systems might have then been permanently disabled when the Collectors were destroyed.

KingofMadCows:
It would have been really stupid for Shepard not to get pictures and scans of the Collector base or gather technology and wreckage after they came back from the explosion so they have plenty of evidence.

Also, the governments may not believe but that doesn't prevent Shepard and his team from spreading the truth and gathering more support. Shepard would have much more support now that he stopped the threat of the Collectors. Plus they already have support from individuals in governments or other positions of power.

Here's the really stupid part... we saw that Shepard had collected evidence in the base. S-/he had this nice little holo-scan or whatever of a Reaper during the post-mission cutscene. The game seemed to imply that they finally had the evidence they needed...

And then nothing came from it.

*sighs*

KingofMadCows:
But why even have that DLC at all. Why not just have ME3 follow the ending of the main ME2 story? Why not have ME3 begin with Shepard's team intact going around the galaxy gathering support to prepare for the Reapers? That way, even if the Collectors weren't important, the fact that they brought the team together and created the impetus for them to gather support would have made the main ME2 story significant.

Heck, even if they follow the DLC, why split the entire team apart? Why not have the team stay together and continue the mission without Shepard? Why didn't they all stay in contact while gathering support so they can help each other?

Take Earth Back. Marketing. Electronic Arts.

The reason you're being derided as immature children is because you are. The fact that you didn't like the ending, and to claim that this "ruined" the entire product and constituted false advertising is ridiculous. It's their story. More importantly, if you took the time to actually understand what they were trying to do with that ending instead of simply joining the knee-jerk reaction parade, you might realize that the ending is brilliant. It's a smart, creative, subtle ending - slightly flawed, but it literally reshapes 300+ hours and thousands of paths and choices in less then two minutes. It gives qualities to the plot and characters that were never there before, and makes you question every moment and every choice you ever made. The fact that they used a scalpel and not a sledgehammer seems to make inaccessible to people, and I think that any changes will simplify appeal to the lowest common denominator by simply explaining what was supposed to be thought-provoking and diagramming what was once philosophical.

The "Retake Mass Effect" is the singularly most egotistical, self-entitled, derisive pile of shite I've witnessed in a long time. As if it ever, ever, EVER belonged to you, you pompous windbags. Perhaps you should retake some humility instead.

More importantly, this isn't a pair of sneakers, or a Burger King Cheeseburger, and you don't get to have it your way. This is art, and you don't get to rewrite it to serve your needs. You don't have to buy anything they do again, but it's pretty short-sighted to boycott a product simply because you don't understand it. Make an effort. Don't just throw up your hands, or your dollars, or bash them on Reddit.

KingofMadCows:

Really? So you're not supposed to think that the main quest of a 30 hour game that's in the middle of a trilogy is important to the overall plot of the series? Yeah, that makes sense.

Lol exaggeration much?

The point of the game was to delay the reapers, and blow up some of their preparations, which you did. It was important in that it made the Reapers less powerful coming into the system then they would have been.

the fact that The Reapers were able to mangle together a few half assed attempts to make more things to use against the organic races does NOT negate the fact that they are worse off then they would have been had they gotten all the things from the collectors day 1 of the invasion.

Therumancer:
Otherwise your right, the bit with The Citadel makes no sense. It's almost like... ~snip~

A-fucking-men. On everything.

It's mind-boggling how incomplete the game seems once you start thinking about it. It's easy to get distracted by the awesome recruitment missions, I guess.

JediMB:

Buretsu:

JediMB:
But, yes, it's easy to forget about the Thessia climax because of how the ending turned out. Just like it's easy to forget that the whole scenario of the Citadel being moved to the Sol system doesn't make any sense, and that the introduction of the Crucible was questionable to begin with... even if it hadn't degenerated into a nonsensical retcon Deus Ex Machina.

You had to know there was going to be a Deus Ex Machina in there somewhere. The Reapers were too big and bad of a threat to be able to be defeated with anything less.

They really didn't need a Deus Ex Machina, because they had already introduced the Crucible as the game's driving plot device and the Catalyst/Citadel as the MacGuffin needed for it to work.

They could have done pretty much anything with the Crucible, but they chose to change the rules at last minute.

Not to mention that Shepard had assembled the largest fleet the galaxy had ever seen. Reapers were falling the very moment the fleet opened fire on them. The current cycle had an advantage never before seen, thanks to the Protheans' legacies and the destruction of Sovereign.

* * *

Think about it for a minute... the Crucible was constructed as a weapon against the Reapers. A weapon that is supposed to use the Catalyst/Citadel as a stabilizing component needed for it to work properly. It's designed to be a weapon, but The Illusive Man believes it can also be used to control the Reapers. So what manner of weapon can it possibly be with those two possible uses?

The Illusive Man also believed that indoctrination was the secret to controlling the Reapers. That the very thing that allows them to control their forces can be used to control them instead. Do you see the connection there?

The Crucible was an ambitious project (by the Protheans and races that preceded them) to disrupt Reaper indoctrination, and possibly even communication between the Reapers themselves. We were shown multiple times that the Protheans had studied indoctrination to the point where they had technology able to detect it. Working on a way to disrupt it is the logical way to proceed from there.

I think you have the right idea, the wrong track. Indoctrination seemed to have mostly been used to create 'sleeper agents' who would infiltrate the civilizations set to be destroyed, and rat out any groups who tried to hide from the extinction. The Protheans developed detection to try and root out these agents and thus be able to successfully hide some of their forces from the Reapers.

In my mind, the Catalyst was actually the signal that gets sent from the Citadel as the 'wake-up call' to the Reapers to begin the extinction, and the Crucible was designed to 'hack' that Signal, in this case by either creating some sort of feedback loop that resulted in exploding Reapers, or to make them all go away and not come back.

Furthermore, it was designed in such a way that it would use up the entire power source of the Mass Relays through using them to, well, relay the signal, and cause their destruction, ending both the threat of the Reapers, and freeing every civilization from having to follow the Reaper's plan for technology development.

SajuukKhar:

KingofMadCows:

Really? So you're not supposed to think that the main quest of a 30 hour game that's in the middle of a trilogy is important to the overall plot of the series? Yeah, that makes sense.

Lol exaggeration much?

Read your own post much? You're the one who said that the Collectors weren't supposed to be important.

The point of the game was to delay the reapers, which you did. It was important in that it made the Reapers less powerful coming into the system then they would have been.

the fact that The Reapers were able to mangle together a few half assed attempts to make more things to use against the organic races does NOT negate the fact that they are worse off then they would have been.

Except the destruction of the Collectors had nothing to do with the actual arrival of the Reapers.

And yes, the Reapers are weaker but not in any significant way. Having the galaxy invaded by 10,001 Reapers won't be that much different than being invaded by 10,000 Reapers. As for the experiments that the Collectors could have made, land troops don't exactly make a big difference when the enemy can just vaporize you from space.

Essentially, because they didn't do anything with the Collectors or the suicide squad in Mass Effect 3, Mass Effect 2 was basically a side quest stretched out to a full game.

Tono Makt:

re: game journalism.

Of course they're in league together. It's not some huge conspiracy (which is how "in league together" can be interpreted as implying), but it's certainly a parasitic relationship. Game journalists need to get the best access possible to the game studios, the designers, the writers, the artists and everyone else involved in the games. People are far more likely to go talk to someone who they think is going to be friendly toward them than someone they view as antagonistic. That's just human nature, and there's no way around it. Gaming journalism (and journalism in general) will always have this issue. What we need to do is to find reviewers who have the same feelings towards the kinds of games we like that we do. Then figure out when that reviewer is giving a good review for the sake of keeping the relationship with the publishers, and when they're giving a good review because it's a good game.

Damn strait. Here is probably the most egregious example of what you describ, and is the reason I absolutely do not care what reviewers write anymore (although I still listen to the gamecritics.com podcast with an open mind): http://www.pcgamer.com/review/dragon-age-2-review/

I feel like such an idiot for buying that game based on a review as it is such an obvious EA/Bioware advertisement. Don't get me wrong, I know there are people who love DAII, but that review does not mention any of the negatives of the game, NONE. Nor does it mention any of the differences from the first that might make fans of the first skip the second. It was a travesty of a review on so many levels. But it makes sense when one considers that PC Gamer had been given first access to the code for an exclusive, which means money for the site/magazine. That is not the same as a true bribe, but in my book it might as well be because the end result is the same: a review that is written to please the owner of the IP and not to inform the reader/consumer.

Since 2008, traditional gaming software sales have been in decline and in the last 2 months they have started to freefall. In 2008 in the UK 4 billion pounds were spent, last year it was 2.1, and this year will be even less. I think part of the reason is that gamers feel used and are tired of being manipulated.

The following is a quote from a great Gamasutra piece, and all you need to do is replace Zynga with EA and you will get my feelings on the matter:

When an entity exists in an ecosystem, and acts within that ecosystem in a way that is short-sighted, behaving in a way that is actively destructive to the healthy functioning of that ecosystem and the other entities in it (including, in the long term, themselves) -- yes, I believe that that is evil. And I believe that Zynga does exactly that.

A "good" company is one which provides goods or services of real value in exchange for a fair price. A good game company recognizes that its developers are the ones who create that value, and treats them as valuable, especially if they are good at what they do. It follows practices that are sustainable. And it ensures that, at the end of the day, the world is a little better for having their goods and services.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/167244/Turning_down_Zynga_Why_I_left_after_the_210M_Omgpop_buy.php

J.d. Scott:
The reason you're being derided as immature children is because you are. The fact that you didn't like the ending, and to claim that this "ruined" the entire product and constituted false advertising is ridiculous. It's their story. More importantly, if you took the time to actually understand what they were trying to do with that ending instead of simply joining the knee-jerk reaction parade, you might realize that the ending is brilliant. It's a smart, creative, subtle ending - slightly flawed, but it literally reshapes 300+ hours and thousands of paths and choices in less then two minutes. It gives qualities to the plot and characters that were never there before, and makes you question every moment and every choice you ever made. The fact that they used a scalpel and not a sledgehammer seems to make inaccessible to people, and I think that any changes will simplify appeal to the lowest common denominator by simply explaining what was supposed to be thought-provoking and diagramming what was once philosophical.

People keep saying these things, but they never go into detail to explain their reasoning. Meanwhile, the fans arguing against the current ending have produced detailed deconstructions of the ending, compared the stories and themes both between the games in the trilogy and with celebrated traditional literary works, and explained why it's unfitting for the genre and emotionally unsatisfying.

It would seem you can't really counter the arguments, so instead you attack the ones making them, all the while spouting vague nonsense about finding subtle brilliance in a sequence of events that are proven to suffer from last-minute cuts, rewrites, and complete displacement of several important subplots.

KingofMadCows:

Read your own post much? You're the one who said that the Collectors weren't supposed to be important.

Except the destruction of the Collectors had nothing to do with the actual arrival of the Reapers.

And yes, the Reapers are weaker but not in any significant way. Having the galaxy invaded by 10,001 Reapers won't be that much different than being invaded by 10,000 Reapers. As for the experiments that the Collectors could have made, land troops don't exactly make a big difference when the enemy can just vaporize you from space.

Actually I implied that they are redundant sub-system that eases the work of the main system, redundancy =/= unimportance. Try harder next time kid.

The delay of the Reapers was actually in reference to the Arrival DLC, secondly the experiments the collectors did could have shown physical, genetics, and psychological weaknesses to exploit that would have made The Reapers invasion more easy.

Yes the Reapers COULD have just come in and started blasting everything with lasers but when you are given the opportunity to gather more information about the htings you plan to kill so you can exploit it to make it easier why wouldn't you take it?

Buretsu:
I think you have the right idea, the wrong track. Indoctrination seemed to have mostly been used to create 'sleeper agents' who would infiltrate the civilizations set to be destroyed, and rat out any groups who tried to hide from the extinction. The Protheans developed detection to try and root out these agents and thus be able to successfully hide some of their forces from the Reapers.

In my mind, the Catalyst was actually the signal that gets sent from the Citadel as the 'wake-up call' to the Reapers to begin the extinction, and the Crucible was designed to 'hack' that Signal, in this case by either creating some sort of feedback loop that resulted in exploding Reapers, or to make them all go away and not come back.

Furthermore, it was designed in such a way that it would use up the entire power source of the Mass Relays through using them to, well, relay the signal, and cause their destruction, ending both the threat of the Reapers, and freeing every civilization from having to follow the Reaper's plan for technology development.

The thing is that the ME3 storyboards we've seen describe the Catalyst as a stabilizing element required for the Crucible to work as intended. Supposedly, without the Catalyst the Crucible would just be one big eezo bomb.

Keep in mind also that the background given for the Crucible describes it as a weapon originally intended for standalone use, but which eventually (after cycles of work) was modified to incorporate the Citadel/Catalyst so that they could get it to work.

KingofMadCows:

SajuukKhar:

KingofMadCows:

Also, when the Collector base was destroyed, Harbinger says to the Collector General, "we will find another way." Another way to do what? Clearly the Collectors were supposed to be a part of the Reaper's plan but I guess Mass Effect 3 just forgot about that.

The Collectors were ordered to start the reproduction cycle early so they could get the new reaper done faster, and to find ways to weaken the other races, which is why they studied them so much.

The Reaper's saying "finding another way" is them talking about making the new reaper, and finding new ways to weaken the races and or get things to fight the races with.

Which they did with the Rachni queen, and the whole asari mutant spawner etc. etc.

that seemed kinda obvious.

Except none of that turned out to be important.

The Collectors still needed millions of humans to complete the Reaper so they wouldn't have gotten it done before the Reaper fleet arrived. Even if they did, one extra Reaper wouldn't have made a difference.

It's true the Collectors gathered data on the various races but again, it wouldn't really matter after the Reapers arrived since the Reapers could just do it themselves.

The fact that, as you mentioned, the Reapers were easily able to enslave the Rachni queen, create Asari husks, brutes, etc. without the help the Collectors suggests that the Reapers didn't really need the Collectors.

However, Harbinger telling the Collector General that the Reapers "will find another way" implies that it was something important to the Reaper's plans, something that the Reapers actually needed the Collectors to do, and that the destruction of the Collectors was as significant setback for the Reapers as the destruction of Sovereign. The fact that none of that mattered in Mass Effect 3 made the main story of ME2 kind of pointless. That seems kind of obvious.

I still picture the human reaper flying through space like superman

KingofMadCows:

Then how did TIM plan to gain access to the Collector base? How did TIM gain access to the Collector base?

Cerberus created EDI after all. If you agree to let him have the base then your relationship with him isn't nearly as antagonistic as the paragon path; it can be assumed that he can quickly get what's needed to cross the relay from EDI whereas the Alliance would have some pretty heavy reverse-engineering to do to get it working on any of their ship. And for what? I forgot to mention this, but the Collector base is the only thing maintaining a "safe zone" so close to the galactic core. With it under Cerberus control, anything can be written as Cerberus being able to keep the Alliance from jumping the relay safely. With the base destroyed, anyone jumping the relay, IFF or not, is screwed anyway since there is no "safe zone" to jump to anymore.

KingofMadCows:

It would have been really stupid for Shepard not to get pictures and scans of the Collector base or gather technology and wreckage after they came back from the explosion so they have plenty of evidence.

Also, the governments may not believe but that doesn't prevent Shepard and his team from spreading the truth and gathering more support. Shepard would have much more support now that he stopped the threat of the Collectors. Plus they already have support from individuals in governments or other positions of power.

If it's destroyed, they aren't coming back (see above). Even with scans, hell even if you could personally beam the Council or Alliance high command to the Collector base, it's Reaper technology the same way the Citadel, Relays or bits of Sovereign is reaper technology: It's from a powerful previous race, but nothing that proves what the reapers really are.

Like I said, it's implied Shepard willingly surrendered to the Alliance. Fighting them was obviously out of the question and Shepard respects the Alliance anyway. Perhaps Shep didn't anticipate being completely grounded by them, but that's what happened. Is the Alliance dumb for grounding Shep? You bet. But what was a giant unwieldy entity like them going to do without much of any proof? They kind of believed, but it's still a big system that has a hard time being flexible to Shepard's A-Team shenanigans.

KingofMadCows:
But why even have that DLC at all. Why not just have ME3 follow the ending of the main ME2 story? Why not have ME3 begin with Shepard's team intact going around the galaxy gathering support to prepare for the Reapers? That way, even if the Collectors weren't important, the fact that they brought the team together and created the impetus for them to gather support would have made the main ME2 story significant.

Heck, even if they follow the DLC, why split the entire team apart? Why not have the team stay together and continue the mission without Shepard? Why didn't they all stay in contact while gathering support so they can help each other?

You seem unaware that, timeline-wise, Arrival doesn't necessarily happen after the suicide mission. It can take place any time between the second round of recruitments and the suicide mission as well as after it.

Also, you seem unclear as to why Shepard was stuck on earth: Shepard was literally stuck on earth. He/She was basically court-marshalled. Just shy of being actually imprisoned. Yes it's dumb of them to do that to Shepard, but again, colossal unwieldy galactic bureaucracy with strict laws.
Speaking of the Arrival DLC, after that mission you get to meet Hackett in person on the Normandy and he warns you that while he believes you and supports you fully, political ramifications will have to be answered. He says: "At some point, you're gonna have to go to Earth and face the music. I can't stop it, but I can and will make them fight for it. [...] Do whatever you have to do out here, but when Earth calls, make sure you're there with your dress blues on, ready to take the hit."
You're stuck on Earth, maybe for longer than you hoped, but it's not much of a stretch from the Alliance's point of view.
So your team spreads out, trying to do their thing as best they can and they do mention having to leave you on Earth when you meet them again in ME3. You even have a little argument with Anderson at the very start of ME3 about how they took your ship and stuck you in a corner to wait while the reapers loomed ever closer. The fact that Shep was on very good terms with two admirals is what prevented imprisonment, but neither of them could help having to restrain Shepard to Vancouver, most likely to the Alliance base itself.

SajuukKhar:
Actually I implied that they are redundant sub-system that eases the work of the main system, redundancy =/= unimportance. Try harder next time kid.

The delay of the Reapers was actually in reference to the Arrival DLC, secondly the experiments the collectors did could have shown physical, genetics, and psychological weaknesses to exploit that would have made The Reapers invasion more easy.

Yes the Reapers COULD have just come in and started blasting everything with lasers but when you are given the opportunity to gather more information about the htings you plan to kill so you can exploit it to make it easier why wouldn't you take it?

The thing is that according to Harbinger they weren't studying organics so that they had weaknesses to exploit. Rather, they were studying organics to find out if any of the species would be useful in Reaper form, and came to the conclusion that only the humans might be.

"Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled."
"Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability."
"Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential."
"Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated."
"Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential."

"Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating."
"Drell; useless, insufficient numbers."
"Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness."
"Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure."
"Geth; an annoyance, limited utility."
"Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted."
"Turian; you are considered...too primitive."

370999:
What's really weird is why are gaming websites so against it. I can get certain individuals disliking it and arguing against it, that's fine though a lot of them speak from intense ignorance (Movie Bob) but the fact that very few seem to be posting any material from people supportive of it. Why is that? Surely a game site would be interested in generating discussion by showing both sides?

They are against it because many of these people that are somehow gifted with a platform to spew their opinions over the Internet perceive themselves as "artists".

putowtin:
I am mad!
How did you know?
Are you following me?

Look ever since I played the ending and did my own "WTF!" I've been convinced that Bioware have done this deliberately, created an ending that would cause discussion, then a month later they would say "Had you fooled! here's the real ending!.
However it's now blown up in their faces, three weeks after the american release the controversy still hasn't died down and what ever happens from this point they have lost a great number of fans.

I many be wrong (it has been known to happen) but that's my take on it.

That was my first thought. Also, they said they were going to give fans resolution/closure in a future announcement in April. Why do I have a feeling that on April 1st they are going to troll us all and either a) release a new ending that is even more stupid than the one in the game as a joke or b) go "April Fools! That was the REAL ending all along! We got you good!"

JediMB:

The thing is that according to Harbinger they weren't studying organics so that they had weaknesses to exploit. Rather, they were studying organics to find out if any of the species would be useful in Reaper form, and came to the conclusion that only the humans might be.

"Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled."
"Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability."
"Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential."
"Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated."
"Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential."

"Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating."
"Drell; useless, insufficient numbers."
"Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness."
"Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure."
"Geth; an annoyance, limited utility."
"Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted."
"Turian; you are considered...too primitive."

And you really think that they didn't also take notes on what breaks those species in order to use it against them?

The goals of finding ways to exploit the races and fiding out which race sucks the least so we can add them to our collective are two things that both use the exact same path to get the answers.

SajuukKhar:

KingofMadCows:

Read your own post much? You're the one who said that the Collectors weren't supposed to be important.

Except the destruction of the Collectors had nothing to do with the actual arrival of the Reapers.

And yes, the Reapers are weaker but not in any significant way. Having the galaxy invaded by 10,001 Reapers won't be that much different than being invaded by 10,000 Reapers. As for the experiments that the Collectors could have made, land troops don't exactly make a big difference when the enemy can just vaporize you from space.

Actually I implied that they are redundant sub-system that eases the work of the main system, redundancy =/= unimportance. Try harder next time kid.

SajuukKhar:
Actually no, it doesn't imply importance, it implies they will do something else to get the same result. Your extrapolating nonexistent importance out of a quote that doesn't imply any sort of real importance beyond "now we will have to do ourselves what you could have done for us before we got there".

Yes, I'm sure you meant "redundant sub-system" when you wrote "nonexistent importance."

The delay of the Reapers was actually in reference to the Arrival DLC, secondly the experiments the collectors did could have shown physical, genetics, and psychological weaknesses to exploit that would have made The Reapers invasion more easy.

Yes the Reapers COULD have just come in and started blasting everything with lasers but when you are given the opportunity to gather more information about the htings you plan to kill so you can exploit it to make it easier why wouldn't you take it?

The Arrival has nothing to do with the discussion of how the main quest of ME2 wasn't important.

And yes, the Collectors could have helped in the Reaper invasion, I never denied that. The question is not whether or not they can help, it's a matter of how much they could have helped. After all, an extra 5 husks would have helped the Reapers but not by much.

If you're going to make the entire middle of a trilogy about the Collectors, why would you not make them a more significant part of the Reaper's plan? Why include no evidence of how the destruction of Collectors hurt the Reapers in ME3?

SajuukKhar:
And you really think that they didn't also take notes on what breaks those species in order to use it against them?

The goals of finding ways to exploit the races and fiding out which race sucks the least so we can add them to our collective are two things that both use the exact same path to get the answers.

Of course they could, hypothetically, but that was never their purpose.

That said, their studies of genetic deviations probably lead to the discovery of the potential of Ardat-Yakshi husks (a.k.a. Banshees).

JediMB:

KingofMadCows:
The destruction of the Collectors apparently meant nothing since it didn't even slow the Reapers. I guess Shepard forgot to give everyone info on how to go through to Omega 4 Relay so they can verify his story and the galaxy remains totally unprepared for the Reaper invasion.

Well, destroying the Collectors wasn't as much about slowing down the Reapers as it was about saving the colonies and finding out why they were being harvested. It was all supposed to be foreshadowing for the Reapers' "master plan" to harvest the human race (and only the human race) for its utility in Reaper form.

Then they took the concept of organics being turned into Reapers in ME3, and twisted it into something that didn't make sense.

If you want the reasons they only go after humans, Harbringer gives them during the fights if he starts attacking anyone except shepard, one of the reasons is that the turians and asari would also be good, but the humans were already in bad locations (the colony locations I mean) and were easier to pick off with the least amount of retaliation.

Mr.Tea:

I know why Shepard had to surrender to the Alliance but why make that a part of the game at all? Why have ME3 follow a DLC that basically erases the biggest accomplishment of the main game? Why even make a DLC that twists the meaning of the ending and diminish its significance?

It would be like if the Emperor discovers Vader's plan to take over the Empire with Luke and kills him at the beginning of Return of the Jedi, thus rendering Luke's duel with Vader in Empire Strikes Back pointless.

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