Games are not art.

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Opinions are funny aren't they.

I don't think a paintstroke on a canvas is art, some crazy fuckers in certain places will disagree with me and throw thousands of dollars at it.

Funny old world ain't it. I only have to look at certain games and the effort put in to reaffirm my belief that games are art. But you can think whatever you like, telling the internet though doesn't validate your opinion.

DrVornoff:

cookyy2k:
As far as I see it, I partially agree. The individual elements of a game (game play, story, music and so on) can be art but I see the game as the medium to express the art not the art. I see the game as a frame to a painting or a cd to the music.

Have you ever seen Videodrome?

LvS:
Bioware

Took longer than I thought, but it still happened. As inevitable as the tides.

kouriichi:
If i offended anyone reading this, take it with a grain of salt.

Or I could just dismiss you completely as an uneducated loudmouth who's making my side of the argument look bad by expressing an opinion that took all of 2 seconds of conscious thought to form.

Loudmouth? Yes. :D Very.
Uneducated. Nope, sorry. In fact, i go to the several very nice Museums in Lansing, Michigan frequently to see the special events and exhibits they put on. I just happen to find most of them droll, pointless, and very uninteresting because the general idea of "Art" is "Old Paintings by Old People".

To dismiss me as "Uneducated" on the idea that i dont like most of the over hyped paintings they call "Art" is a little outrageous D: Because art is subjective. And everything TO DO with art is subjective. The simple act of picking a color to paint a wall changes the very way most people will look at a painting.

And id hate to break it to ya, but if it took me more then 2 seconds to type my thought, it took more then 2 seconds to form. Now please, go be mean for no reason else where~

Games are fun. I like to play them because they keep me entertained. I don't care if it's called art or not because all I care about is playing the game. But if I had to make a decision I'd call them art. I call movies art, and games are movies where you control the main character so why not call games art? EVERY game is art, can't just leave one out(Call of Duty or Halo or whatever people hate now) just because it's a shooter that a lot of people like. I like to think they are true gamers...the ones who play games because they get entertained, not the ones that say "that's not a TRUE game, to be a real gamer you gotta play this because it actually requires skill!" Because I'm pretty sure entertainment was the goal games go for. So that's my opinion, thank you for asking me sorta. =D
Sorry if this is a tad confusing to read, my first time posting on a forum.

Art is non-interactive... By that logic, art is not art to artists, because they engage in making said art.

kouriichi:
Uneducated. Nope, sorry. In fact, i go to the several very nice Museums in Lansing, Michigan frequently to see the special events and exhibits they put on.

Gold star for you. How does this translate into academic comprehension?

To dismiss me as "Uneducated" on the idea that i dont like most of the over hyped paintings they call "Art" is a little outrageous D: Because art is subjective. And everything TO DO with art is subjective. The simple act of picking a color to paint a wall changes the very way most people will look at a painting.

You thought I was arguing taste? You should be so lucky. I'm referring to the fact that you are making statements that display absolutely no comprehension about the subjects you're denouncing.

Your words:

What about Theater? Many people consider art right? Seeing a bunch of near homeless, starving artists get on a large piece of wood and Speakeh in Olde Timey talk?

No doubt hyperbolic, but it does make you sound like one of those rubes who think that playwrights ceased to exist after the Jacobian period.

Opera? Loud, pertinacious singers who think their voices are god and that EVERYONE should love them? Singing songs that could literally shatter glass because of how terrible they sound?

Fifty bucks says you don't know where the shattering glass meme actually came from.

I submit to you THAT SH*T hanging in a "gallery" of some old slop poorly placed on wool paper is not art.

Putting the word gallery in quotation marks just tells me you don't know how to use quotation marks. You're just doing it to be snarky and dismissive without going through all that bothersome business of having to actually back up your opinions.

The Mona Lisa is a crappy painting of a woman no one cares enough to remember.

By "no one" you are of course referring to yourself.

Picasso was a hack who couldnt draw anything other then crappy shapes and disfigured humans.

This one is particularly laughable. Google Picasso's blue period and rose period. The Afro-Cubist stuff you're referring to was made between 1909 and 1912, after which he moved on to other styles of painting including Neoclassical. The blue and rose period were remarked upon in an episode of Animaniacs, for Christ's sake. It's not as if you have any valid excuse for being that ignorant.

And while on the subject of Afro-Cubism, it was abstraction developed with Georges Braque that endeavored to portray the subjects from every angle simultaneously, creating an abstract representation of motion and 3 dimensions in a 2D plane. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant.

Whistler's Mother belongs on the wall of a shack in northern Michigan between a stuffed deer head and a beaver hide, not in an art museum. That one about the Dogs Playing Poker is just a comedic painting, ive seen a dozen paintings 10x funnier then it, with 10x more meaning, and those artists and the local college will never have their names known, yet this one piece is known by nearly everyone.

You made no attempts to qualify these statements so they're just useless.

So you really can't boast that you appreciate art when you objectively demonstrate that you know next to nothing about it. All you can honestly say is that you have a taste for photorealism. Whoop-dee-doo for you! How does this give you any sort of authority in this debate?

Look, I'm not here to tell anyone what they can and can't like. I never argue taste. I like a lot of things that other people don't like. I'm a fan of Jackson Pollock, Viking metal and the filmography of David Lynch. All three of those are not for everybody. But it's bullshit to say that none of it is art simply on the basis that you personally don't like it.

I'd say it is, it's kidna tough to define, but it think most of the people who work on a game are artists, so it would be considered MOSTLY art.

tr00per7:
Games arent art

you cant hang halo 3 in your living room, that would be fucking stupid.

You can't hang up a song, or film either.. So that's a bit of a shallow definition. Plus, if you were so inclined you could totally hang up the box for Halo.

tr00per7:
Games arent art

you cant hang halo 3 in your living room, that would be fucking stupid.

you CAN however hang a nice peice of concept art from the game on your wall...

OR you could frame the game case...

boag:
im all for having a philosophical about the definition of art, but Im not sure the current shitstorm will allow for proper discussion to take place.

I know right? this is like watching a nuclear bomb drop... especially on a site like the Escapist, who's community overwhelming supports the notion it is.

My opinion is that it IS art - or can be. Art is a mode of expression. Some people have creatively mentioned other, interactive forms of art (dance, music, etc.) and I think this is a good point.

The bottom line is that games are just new and their definition as art is new.

That being said, I don't think all games are art, just like some drawings are sketches or doodles and some photographs are just happy memories and not perfect compositions of lighting and poise (that being said, nearly all games could contain some element of art).

So Mario and angry birds? Probably not art.

Skyrim, Mass Effect, Limbo, etc.? yes, they're art.

My opinion has already been stated, in better ways then I can do it, by others, but I feel the need to add that the only way that games cannot be art is that you are not willing to let them be art. Art is about expressing emotion through creation. When someone makes something to say something, or to make you feel something, then they are creating art.

If you play a game and you are not feeling anything for that game, then it is not art to you. If you play a game, and the characters make you feel something, or the story makes you think, or any number of things, then it is art to you. If you have never played a game in that has made you feel something, or made you think about something in a way that you've never thought of before, then you need to play different games.

Mimsofthedawg:
I know right? this is like watching a nuclear bomb drop... especially on a site like the Escapist, who's community overwhelming supports the notion it is.

I think the bigger problem is not just that it's a bit lopsided, but that most of the people here know dick about art history and theory. They have an opinion, but they're poorly equipped to argue it. Cracked dot com may not be a scholarly resource, but it says something that Robert Brockway's defense of games as art was far more lucid, academic, witty, insightful, and persuasive than anything I've seen here.

As angry as gamers got at Roger Ebert, he still communicated his opinion better than 99% of the Escapist community. And to his credit, he walked back on the "never" comment because never is a very long time. On his Twitter feed he also posted numerous articles both in agreement with him and refuting him. He never commented on what he thought of those articles, instead letting the reader weigh the merits of the arguments for themselves.

DrVornoff:

kouriichi:
Uneducated. Nope, sorry. In fact, i go to the several very nice Museums in Lansing, Michigan frequently to see the special events and exhibits they put on.

Gold star for you. How does this translate into academic comprehension?

To dismiss me as "Uneducated" on the idea that i dont like most of the over hyped paintings they call "Art" is a little outrageous D: Because art is subjective. And everything TO DO with art is subjective. The simple act of picking a color to paint a wall changes the very way most people will look at a painting.

You thought I was arguing taste? You should be so lucky. I'm referring to the fact that you are making statements that display absolutely no comprehension about the subjects you're denouncing.

Your words:

What about Theater? Many people consider art right? Seeing a bunch of near homeless, starving artists get on a large piece of wood and Speakeh in Olde Timey talk?

No doubt hyperbolic, but it does make you sound like one of those rubes who think that playwrights ceased to exist after the Jacobian period.

Opera? Loud, pertinacious singers who think their voices are god and that EVERYONE should love them? Singing songs that could literally shatter glass because of how terrible they sound?

Fifty bucks says you don't know where the shattering glass meme actually came from.

I submit to you THAT SH*T hanging in a "gallery" of some old slop poorly placed on wool paper is not art.

Putting the word gallery in quotation marks just tells me you don't know how to use quotation marks. You're just doing it to be snarky and dismissive without going through all that bothersome business of having to actually back up your opinions.

The Mona Lisa is a crappy painting of a woman no one cares enough to remember.

By "no one" you are of course referring to yourself.

Picasso was a hack who couldnt draw anything other then crappy shapes and disfigured humans.

This one is particularly laughable. Google Picasso's blue period and rose period. The Afro-Cubist stuff you're referring to was made between 1909 and 1912, after which he moved on to other styles of painting including Neoclassical. The blue and rose period were remarked upon in an episode of Animaniacs, for Christ's sake. It's not as if you have any valid excuse for being that ignorant.

And while on the subject of Afro-Cubism, it was abstraction developed with Georges Braque that endeavored to portray the subjects from every angle simultaneously, creating an abstract representation of motion and 3 dimensions in a 2D plane. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant.

Whistler's Mother belongs on the wall of a shack in northern Michigan between a stuffed deer head and a beaver hide, not in an art museum. That one about the Dogs Playing Poker is just a comedic painting, ive seen a dozen paintings 10x funnier then it, with 10x more meaning, and those artists and the local college will never have their names known, yet this one piece is known by nearly everyone.

You made no attempts to qualify these statements so they're just useless.

So you really can't boast that you appreciate art when you objectively demonstrate that you know next to nothing about it. All you can honestly say is that you have a taste for photorealism. Whoop-dee-doo for you! How does this give you any sort of authority in this debate?

Look, I'm not here to tell anyone what they can and can't like. I never argue taste. I like a lot of things that other people don't like. I'm a fan of Jackson Pollock, Viking metal and the filmography of David Lynch. All three of those are not for everybody. But it's bullshit to say that none of it is art simply on the basis that you personally don't like it.

As i said at the beginning of my post, im not a serious arguer x:
"take it as mostly a joke. Im not a very serious person when i try to make a point"

Most of what i said against the paintings and art styles are not SERIOUS critics of them. Just joking remarks.

I know plenty about art, having attended several classes at the local college >.>; Art is what you make of it. Im not debating its bad, im saying "This art doesnt impress me." And art is all about impression. The impact it makes. The ascetics it has. Something that strikes you as "Hideous" is just as much art as a diamond necklace if it provokes emotion from you.

I said, ITS NOT ART TO ME. Thats me. Not you. I stated several times, "This is my opinion, and just my opinion". You completely ignored 1/4 my post stating "if you dont like this, move on". >.>; All for the sake of what? To insult me and say "YOUR WRONG ITS ART BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW ART".

Why do you think Picasso is so different from Donatello? Is it time? Is it race? No. Its views. Art is subjective, and differs from person to person. And because YOU think what im saying is "Bullshit" proves you know less about what art is then me :D
Because in art, there is no "Bullshit". There are no "Wrong answers/views". Art is ment to evoke different emotions from different people.

Let me say this. Your debating something onesidedly. Im not debating back x: Im not a person who argues. You wont see me without a smile, and half a dozen witty jokes ready to be used. But i know what art is. And its why i stated, THIS IS MY OPINION. You dont like it? MOVE ON. Dont bash me for my views THAT I STATED ARE DIFFERENT.

Geeze >.>; The internet is on a slow decline if people ignore the simplest parts of your post.

I think they can be. If someone thinks they're art, I guess they're art to that person. I don't see why people even keep bringing this thing up. Arts subjective.

tr00per7:
Games arent art

you cant hang halo 3 in your living room, that would be fucking stupid.

Hanging Schindler's List in your living room would be kinda stupid too.

Tree man:
Right then, Do any of you here classify games as art (to clarify I see art as paintings, sculptures, music and film.)

Because I sure don't, I don't think that games are art because art is non-interactive, you look at, or watch, or listen to art, then you formulate an opinion and leave the art behind. You may come back the next day and come away with a different opinion, but that will be because something on your end had changed.

By comparison, when you leave a game like Oblivion and come back the next day and make a new character, and put all your points into sneaking, the game changes, you may meet new characters who you never even knew about, you may discover new areas and items.

Art, in my opinion is stationary, games are not.

^ Your thoughts.

There have been tons of interactive art pieces, many of which are always revolving in a museum tour. Interactivity doesn't have anything to do with whether a piece is art or not.

And yes video games are art, they are art meant to be bought and played, but that doesn't discount them as art any more then any other form of art.

kouriichi:
As i said at the beginning of my post, im not a serious arguer x:
"take it as mostly a joke. Im not a very serious person when i try to make a point"

Then why insert yourself into the conversation if you have nothing of actual value to contribute?

I stated several times, "This is my opinion, and just my opinion". You completely ignored 1/4 my post stating "if you dont like this, move on". >.>;

I ignored it because you brought it up to a suspect degree. You came across as just another talking head who thinks the word "opinion" is carte blanche to shoot your mouth off and be protected from anyone disagreeing with you.

In fact, that perception of you hasn't changed in the slightest. You butted into the thread, spouted off some painfully unfunny hyperbolic nonsense, insisted that no one should criticize you, and now are getting all defensive now that someone has come along to say, "Cut it out, you're not helping."

Really, this all comes across as just a call for attention. Fine. You have my attention. Now what are you going to do with it?

Tree man:
Right then, Do any of you here classify games as art (to clarify I see art as paintings, sculptures, music and film.)

Because I sure don't, I don't think that games are art because art is non-interactive, you look at, or watch, or listen to art, then you formulate an opinion and leave the art behind. You may come back the next day and come away with a different opinion, but that will be because something on your end had changed.

By comparison, when you leave a game like Oblivion and come back the next day and make a new character, and put all your points into sneaking, the game changes, you may meet new characters who you never even knew about, you may discover new areas and items.

Art, in my opinion is stationary, games are not.

^ Your thoughts.

So Music is art, but musicians arenīt artists because each and everyone of them plays a piece of music with their own style.
They FORM the music and shape it to their will, like a sculptist. They make it as they see fit. Composers generally do whatever they want, they end up with a piece of music...thatīs art, but heīs not an artist because he can change stuff and as he changes it, itīs interactive.

Games can be art, since the sculptists and composers of a game sit around, shape it as they want it and then present it to you. How you recieve that piece now is entirely up to you.

kouriichi:
Y

Opera? Loud, pertinacious singers who think their voices are god and that EVERYONE should love them? Singing songs that could literally shatter glass because of how terrible they sound? ((just my opinion on that one, though i do enjoy "some" opera, usually the softer stuff.))

I had a whole post written about this statement, but I decided that it would more then likely just piss you off, so I'll just give you Alfie Boe, and call it a day. The song starts at :54.

Captcha: face the music... lol

DrVornoff:

kouriichi:
As i said at the beginning of my post, im not a serious arguer x:
"take it as mostly a joke. Im not a very serious person when i try to make a point"

Then why insert yourself into the conversation if you have nothing of actual value to contribute?

I stated several times, "This is my opinion, and just my opinion". You completely ignored 1/4 my post stating "if you dont like this, move on". >.>;

I ignored it because you brought it up to a suspect degree. You came across as just another talking head who thinks the word "opinion" is carte blanche to shoot your mouth off and be protected from anyone disagreeing with you.

In fact, that perception of you hasn't changed in the slightest. You butted into the thread, spouted off some painfully unfunny hyperbolic nonsense, insisted that no one should criticize you, and now are getting all defensive now that someone has come along to say, "Cut it out, you're not helping."

Really, this all comes across as just a call for attention. Fine. You have my attention. Now what are you going to do with it?

You want to know what im going to do with your attention? :D
Tell you ITS AN OPINION. Its not yours. Hate it if you want. Go ahead, i'll set aside 3 minutes of my time to let you.

..... :3 Done? Good. I can in here to give my opinion. As EVERYONE ELSE in here has. As you just did. Your own opinion. I have mine.

Art is ABOUT OPINION. What is art to one person is trash to another. Art is about feeling. If a painting evokes no feeling to you, then its no more art then the grey wall in a dentist office.

You want to know the truth about me? :D I hate alot of the "Art" out there. There are people right now, painting things far better TO ME ((personally me, not you, as i have tried to state)) then anything in the Louvre. Why? Because a painting of a beautiful sunset is more art to me then a painting of a woman i will never know. Of a time i dont care about. Of places i will never visit, and never want to visit.

Im saying "I like art. Just not the Art you like".

silent-treatment:

kouriichi:
Y

Opera? Loud, pertinacious singers who think their voices are god and that EVERYONE should love them? Singing songs that could literally shatter glass because of how terrible they sound? ((just my opinion on that one, though i do enjoy "some" opera, usually the softer stuff.))

I had a whole post written about this statement, but I decided that it would more then likely just piss you off, so I'll just give you Alfie Boe, and call it a day. The song starts at :54.

Captcha: face the music... lol

Yes, this is the type of Opera i hate. x:
This is not art to me. But thats just me. Your happy to enjoy it all you want, and it can be art to you, but to me, its people shouting at the top of their lungs in different tones.

Aircross:
Playing music on the violin and interpreting how it is to be played must not be an art then since it's not non-interactive.

Thank you. For centuries, music couldn't even be recorded. Hell, a lot of early music notation systems left a lot more to interpretation than modern ones do, and it's still subject to interpretation. That's overly simplistic, but still.

Frozengale:
why are there three threads about this on the front page? One thread is enough.

Because everyone has an opinion, and everyone thinks their spin is so important it merits its own thread, rather than just contributing to other threads where they might not get attention for their "unique" insight.

DoPo:
snipped for length

I think the important element of this is that a medium can be both artistic and commercial. Though I appreciate the elaboration.

kouriichi:

Yes, this is the type of Opera i hate. x:
This is not art to me. But thats just me. Your happy to enjoy it all you want, and it can be art to you, but to me, its people shouting at the top of their lungs in different tones.

I always have trouble with the "I don't like it so it's not art" sort of thing.

Whether or not it's art or not is, for me, irrelevant. If I'm having fun, who gives a damn. "Ooh, I would enjoy this, but it's not aaaart. Eeeeew. Let me go back to my glasses of port and monocle polish while I watch pretentious films about nothing."

image

DrVornoff:
Then why insert yourself into the conversation if you have nothing of actual value to contribute?

Because tha's exactly the tone of this thread, and to a certain degree of this whole forum. Did you saw the OP? It is just as ridiculous as that guy's posts.

You are the one out of context, like a pro boxer seeing a middle school fight and getting in there...

ALL TOGETHER NOW!

Seriously, Art is a form of expression. Art much like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So it doesnt matter what one individual doesnt think is art, it is art so long as someone else thinks it is art.

As much as I hate it, you know what else is art? The series of billboards bought in NYC with a photo of a bird as big as an 8x11 sheet of paper, with each billboard having the bird in a slightly different place on each one so as if you followed around the city in the right order it would appear as if the bird was flying across the billboard in your memory. I think its the dumbest waste of money ever, but it is still viewed as art.

This is common knowledge, so how about we not try to portray art with such a narrow view for little or no other reason than to get people going again.

kouriichi:

silent-treatment:

kouriichi:
Y

Opera? Loud, pertinacious singers who think their voices are god and that EVERYONE should love them? Singing songs that could literally shatter glass because of how terrible they sound? ((just my opinion on that one, though i do enjoy "some" opera, usually the softer stuff.))

I had a whole post written about this statement, but I decided that it would more then likely just piss you off, so I'll just give you Alfie Boe, and call it a day. The song starts at :54.

Captcha: face the music... lol

Yes, this is the type of Opera i hate. x:
This is not art to me. But thats just me. Your happy to enjoy it all you want, and it can be art to you, but to me, its people shouting at the top of their lungs in different tones.

Okay. That's chill man, but I really doubt there is an opera that you do like. Im not saying that its a bad thing, most of my friends don't like opera, but "soft oprea", what are you talking about, this is about as soft as it gets.

Ugh. Games ARE art. They express ideas through a visual, auditory and interactive level. that's art.

It's up to you whether or not it's good art though. Something can still be considered art whether it's particularly artsy or not.

boag:
im all for having a philosophical about the definition of art, but Im not sure the current shitstorm will allow for proper discussion to take place.

This guy hit the nail on the head. With all the hotness running around on art, this is a discussion probably to be made at a later time. You bring up a fine question Tree Man, I hope you bring it up again when we all have cooler heads.

DrVornoff:

Mimsofthedawg:
I know right? this is like watching a nuclear bomb drop... especially on a site like the Escapist, who's community overwhelming supports the notion it is.

I think the bigger problem is not just that it's a bit lopsided, but that most of the people here know dick about art history and theory. They have an opinion, but they're poorly equipped to argue it. Cracked dot com may not be a scholarly resource, but it says something that Robert Brockway's defense of games as art was far more lucid, academic, witty, insightful, and persuasive than anything I've seen here.

As angry as gamers got at Roger Ebert, he still communicated his opinion better than 99% of the Escapist community. And to his credit, he walked back on the "never" comment because never is a very long time. On his Twitter feed he also posted numerous articles both in agreement with him and refuting him. He never commented on what he thought of those articles, instead letting the reader weigh the merits of the arguments for themselves.

I don't think most people on here care about articulating their opinion (which is given for free, at the expense of time that could be spent with family, loved ones, games, or w/e) as well as Roger Ebert (who is paid to sit on his ass and say things). I used to. But then I realized that to TRULY win an argument on here I'd have to put in hours of time of research, so now I just state my opinions and if people want to flame me for it or get all upity because I make some semi-controversial statement (usually hinting at that I'm a Christian, a Conservative, or that I hate Half Life 2) they can do that and waste their time. I hope they're happy with it!

At any rate, I think I get what you're saying here too. Video games as art just need to develop. But hell, art itself is an ambiguous subject, and if you've ACTUALLY taken an art history course or read a basic book on art, you'd know that the exact definition of art is "ambiguous" and not really confined to a single term. Expression. That's art. And therefore, games are art.

The real question is to what degree are they art? Can they be compared to powerful works of literature and painting or will they never quite gain such prestige?

Video games are art, if the creator has developed them to be an "art" game.

To be honest though, I'd prefer is games weren't really "art." Too many people consider bittersweet endings to be artistic and shit, and bittersweet endings suck. Most of the time it's just "bitter" and never has any sweet.

Even though people deny it, art is subjective. Your Mona Lisa is my drawing a five year old did.

Society hasn't accepted video games as a valid form of art, and to be honest, video games are still really new compared to other things we consider art. Let video games mature and in a few years, society will eventually come to consider video games a valid form of art, but right now, video games are too young for society to accept as something that can be compared to a Monet or a da Vinci.

And even once people consider it a form of art, we'll still have arguments over what type of art they are and how they need to classified and separated and....ugh...does it even really matter?

"Games are not art"
The Escapist Forums

Here comes the opinions.

Tree man:
Right then, Do any of you here classify games as art (to clarify I see art as paintings, sculptures, music and film.)

Because I sure don't, I don't think that games are art because art is non-interactive, you look at, or watch, or listen to art, then you formulate an opinion and leave the art behind. You may come back the next day and come away with a different opinion, but that will be because something on your end had changed.

By comparison, when you leave a game like Oblivion and come back the next day and make a new character, and put all your points into sneaking, the game changes, you may meet new characters who you never even knew about, you may discover new areas and items.

Art, in my opinion is stationary, games are not.

^ Your thoughts.

Gastronomy is an age old art. That's just people eating and arranging food on a plate properly. So why can't games get a ludicrous reason to become an artform. (Like they kinda are.)

If not for the game itself. The graphics and concept art, harken toward paintings and visual arts. The music to... Well music. And the storyline to literary arts. Surely gaming is a blenderfest of all of the best and most received arts of all time.

Zachary Amaranth:

kouriichi:

Yes, this is the type of Opera i hate. x:
This is not art to me. But thats just me. Your happy to enjoy it all you want, and it can be art to you, but to me, its people shouting at the top of their lungs in different tones.

I always have trouble with the "I don't like it so it's not art" sort of thing.

Well, art is something that sticks with you. Its something that draws a lasting emotion.
Have you ever seen or heard something so beautiful it stuck with you for the rest of the day?

Thats art. Even if its something you dont like. Ive seen paintings i havent liked. In fact, ive seen "Art" i hated. And id still call them "Art", because they stuck with me for days. I went to this exhibit with my wife ((her 2nd time to a museum larger then one room)) and She loved it. But there was one painting i just hated. Something about it pissed me off. And i couldnt look away from it. And it was all i remember from the entire exhibit.

It was art. Granted, to me it was bad art, but still Art none the less. But she couldent even remember which one it was. ((That made me even more ragey for a bit))

Its more of "It doesnt do anything for me so i hate it as art", then "I hate so its not art".

Are games art? If they are it doesn't nor has it EVER meant jack shit. People seem to be under the current impression that using the word Art is the end all argument/defense for any crappy piece of...well crap. And it is not. In fact that word has been said so often in so short of time I don't think the word has any meaning anymore. But just in case...Just cause something is art does NOT, DOES NOT mean It is above scorn.

Now as for games it gets mucky, especially for a long term game series that failed to live up to promises that where made. Understand that an investment of 60...no wait...80 for the CE oh wait...the other two...so over say 180 bucks at least MEANS SOMETHING. No it does not mean we have any control over the PRODUCT. Unless of course the claim is made by people within the company that Fan Feedback matters. When you put that much money into something believing it is one thing then the meaning of art goes right out the window.

I have never believed games where 'art' they can be 'artistic'. But I don't think their 'art' mostly cause no form of the medium has been like Video games before. Games are interactive, RPG's especially, the ones that give us choice even more so. So no games aren't art if only cause that word doesn't do it justice.

Also why can't art be mutable? Why can't it change? Artists often go back to old works and fiddle with them all the time. Sometimes cause they came up with something other times cause the public or their fans suggested something that stuck with him.

That said once money enters the picture a lot of the meaning of Art goes out the window.

Spotting a cougar: survival.
Running from a cougar: survival.
Climbing a tree to escape: survival.
Laughing at the cougar that cannot catch you: art.

Everything we do that is not directly related to survival is art. You can live without a game. It's only purpose is to enrich your life, not to preserve it, lengthen it, or propagate it.

Therefore it is art.

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