Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues

 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT
 

http://extra-credits.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2008

Nothing much to say except that Extra Credits decided to respond to this issue, and they have some pretty good views.

I respect what Bioware has done, and I hope they don't cave in to the massive amount of whining.

Sure, I am disappointed in how they didn't uphold everything they said they would, but the best thing I can do is to express my disappointment and not purchase their products until they shape up.

Leave the past as it is and focus on the future, bringing back the Bioware we once knew.

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Rushing the end of your game to meet unrealistic release dates is so artistic though! :P

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Games critics defending "artistic integrity" blah blah blah is getting so fucking old.

Why can't we all just shut the fuck up about this? Hell, discuss something other than the ending. I mean jesus tits, this is worse than when MW2 was released.

endtherapture:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Games critics defending "artistic integrity" blah blah blah is getting so fucking old.

Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

Sutter Cane:

endtherapture:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Games critics defending "artistic integrity" blah blah blah is getting so fucking old.

Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

Oh who really gives a shit if games are art? People who care about it so much need to go out and get a life and get laid or something.

I doubt 99% like the music I do. They might consider it "noise" or say "that's not music", and you know what, that doesn't bother me in the slightest? I couldn't give a shit. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters, no one cares if it's "art" or not.

endtherapture:
If you enjoy it, that's all that matters, no one cares if it's "art" or not.

Couldn't have said it better myself (and i've tried).

I've been gaming since 1985 and it's never been "taken seriously" or considered "art" and at 31 years old I just couldn't care about it now.

Plus i've never liked EC anyway so their opinions mean less to me than newt excrement.

The douchey artsy guys have an artsy douchey view on the ending? I never saw it coming. I like those guys though and you have to give him credit for backing up his point and understanding why people are upset, even if his opinion doesn't line up 100% with everyone else.

Are these the same guys who did the hilarious, absolutely cringe-inducing segment on MMO addiction?

In his defense I feel at least it wasn't an attack on the gamer community.

Although considering the episode 'role of the player' I can't help but feel a little disappointed.

Sutter Cane:
Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

You have 2 minutes to explain why asking for a different ending was disrespectful, and why game critics "respecting" (read that in an extremely patronizing voice) games as an "artform" (you know the drill) makes the slightest bit of fucking difference.

People with artistic inclinations weigh in from their perspective.

People who are not artists call them pretentious despite not knowing what the word actually means, make some classless, snotty remarks, and drag the level of discourse down another notch.

In other news, bear shits in woods.

That said, I'm mostly in agreement with Dan. It rather echoes Jim Sterling's glass-half-full idea. For the ending to get people this pissed off shows just how successful the rest of the series was. A bad ending doesn't change the good times I had.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Sutter Cane:
Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

You have 2 minutes to explain why asking for a different ending was disrespectful, and why game critics "respecting" (read that in an extremely patronizing voice) games as an "artform" (you know the drill) makes the slightest bit of fucking difference.

It doesn't. Not in the slightest. But people who are insecure about their hobby's worth need something to cling to to justify liking it.

The EC guys have always held a pretentious view when it comes to "video games as art", so nothing new here.

endtherapture:
Snip

Rawne1980:
snip

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Sutter Cane:
Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

why game critics "respecting" (read that in an extremely patronizing voice) games as an "artform" (you know the drill) makes the slightest bit of fucking difference.

Maybe I am missing something, I just find it ironic people can claim "It doesn't matter if games are considered art or not" When they are talking about the most story driven game I've ever played.

This whole uproar is based around the story of the game. The emotional investment you have towards the Mass Effect universe only exists because the people making the game consider it art.

you don't have to be an 'artsy' guy and you don't have to care. But I can see a huge step up from games with almost no artistic value (like space invaders) to modern games like Bastion and Limbo.

Limecake:

Maybe I am missing something, I just find it ironic people can claim "It doesn't matter if games are considered art or not" When they are talking about the most story driven game I've ever played.

This whole uproar is based around the story of the game. The emotional investment you have towards the Mass Effect universe only exists because the people making the game consider it art.

you don't have to be an 'artsy' guy and you don't have to care. But I can see a huge step up from games with almost no artistic value (like space invaders) to modern games like Bastion and Limbo.

You have 2 minutes to explain why it matters. Hell, I will even give you 3, so you have enough time to look up what "irony" means.

Also, define "artistic value".

Limecake:
Maybe I am missing something, I just find it ironic people can claim "It doesn't matter if games are considered art or not" When they are talking about the most story driven game I've ever played.

Welcome to the internet, where no argument is required to make sense or be internally consistent, and where having the sheer unmitigated gall to have a different opinion is the worst thing you can possibly do.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
You have 2 minutes to explain why it matters. Hell, I will even give you 3, so you have enough time to look up what "irony" means.

Am I the only who finds it adorable that you are actually setting time limits on people's replies in a text-based environment where conversations are not taking place in real time?

Dude, settle the fuck down. You're not impressing anyone by being a belligerent tool to anyone who so much as mentions the word "art."

Wow, i even read his posts in that annoying voice he uses in his videos.

Anyway, it's kind of funny that people are so outraged at the fans compromising BioWare's creative vision, but don't say a peep about EA's influence on the company. So BioWare are perfectly fine with having a 2 year development cycle, cutting up their games for DLC and inserting idiotic cameos, but this is what crosses the line?

EA are the frontmen of the games as a service idea, cutting corners for profit is their goddamn company policy. The work BioWare produce under them is not art, calling it art is an insult to every developer that invests genuine love and craftsmanship into their games.

DrVornoff:
People with artistic inclinations weigh in from their perspective.

People who are not artists call them pretentious despite not knowing what the word actually means, make some classless, snotty remarks, and drag the level of discourse down another notch.

The last time I heard this argument, it was being made by a good friend of mine. He was 19 at the time, and fresh out of his first couple of years at a fairly prestigious university. He sounded like a puffed up idiot at the time, and years later we both had a good laugh about it.

For a more formal rebuttal, this is an appeal to authority, and it's incredibly obnoxious. Please stop it.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

They've been pretty shitty for a while now. And they just hit a new low. What the fuck is wrong with these video game journalists these days? It's like they've all been indoctrinated, or if someone preformed lobotomy on them because their words make no fuckin' sense.

Thoric485:
Anyway, it's kind of funny that people are so outraged at the fans compromising BioWare's creative vision, but don't say a peep about EA's influence on the company.

Oh, you want me to shit on EA, too? Go ahead, ask me what I think of EA's business practices. Do it. You might be surprised.

BloatedGuppy:
For a more formal rebuttal, this is an appeal to authority, and it's incredibly obnoxious. Please stop it.

Oh, I'm not saying having formal training in the arts makes your word the end-all. But dismissing everyone who makes an argument that involves art as pretentious even when the word doesn't apply and being really hostile about it? That's obnoxious.

DrVornoff:
Oh, I'm not saying having formal training in the arts makes your word the end-all. But dismissing everyone who makes an argument that involves art as pretentious even when the word doesn't apply and being really hostile about it? That's obnoxious.

The argument for authorial divinity is kind of pretentious though. I can see why it riles people up. Not that everyone is being super mature about it, but even you must agree this debate has had some hilariously misbehaved individuals on both sides of the ledger.

I disagree with Dan, but knew he would take this course of reasoning. The guy works at Pixar. Of course he's going to take the opinion that Bioware shouldn't change the ending due to artistic integrity. He's an artist who's work isn't much different than what Bioware did.

I disagree with him. I think Bioware should change the ending because they made a mistake. Plain and simple. Fallout 3's ending was changed over a much smaller outcry than this and nobody complained then. This is no different.

Defending the mistake over artistic integrity is wrong. ME3's ending destroys the narrative coherence of the rest of the series, and that's a mistake. You can't defend it. It should be changed. It can be changed. Don't clarify it, because everything about it is wrong. Change it completely so that narrative coherence is kept. Bioware proved they could do it with Tuchanka. They can do it again with the ending. I'm positive.

Fappy:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Rushing the end of your game to meet unrealistic release dates is so artistic though! :P

Don't forget giving EDI a cameltoe. SO. MUCH. ART.

DrVornoff:

Thoric485:
Anyway, it's kind of funny that people are so outraged at the fans compromising BioWare's creative vision, but don't say a peep about EA's influence on the company.

Oh, you want me to shit on EA, too? Go ahead, ask me what I think of EA's business practices. Do it. You might be surprised.

BloatedGuppy:
For a more formal rebuttal, this is an appeal to authority, and it's incredibly obnoxious. Please stop it.

Oh, I'm not saying having formal training in the arts makes your word the end-all. But dismissing everyone who makes an argument that involves art as pretentious even when the word doesn't apply and being really hostile about it? That's obnoxious.

I would say that pretentious fits perfectly. Puffing up the worth of 'videogames-as-art' is pretentious. Acting like this moment will define video games' artistic worth is pretentious. Believing that if people who don't give two shits on the matter suddenly do somehow will uplift video games as a medium is severely pretentious.

BloatedGuppy:
The argument for authorial divinity is kind of pretentious though. I can see why it riles people up. Not that everyone is being super mature about it, but even you must agree this debate has had some hilariously misbehaved individuals on both sides of the ledger.

Yeah. But I do believe the people demanding a change have been the worst by far. At least my side of the argument didn't have people demanding their money back from a fucking charity.

But here's the thing. Dan said in that post that if Bioware releases an addendum adding closure to the ending, he's more or less okay with that. Seriously, what about that is pretentious and disagreeable? What about that makes him this insufferable asshole that some people here are making him out to be? Frankly, this whole goatfuck has given me the impression that gamers in general are just thin-skinned and petulant, and don't know how to behave when presented with an opinion different from their own.

wintercoat:
I would say that pretentious fits perfectly. Puffing up the worth of 'videogames-as-art' is pretentious. Acting like this moment will define video games' artistic worth is pretentious. Believing that if people who don't give two shits on the matter suddenly do somehow will uplift video games as a medium is severely pretentious.

Funny, I don't remember them saying that. And I still don't find any of that pretentious.

DrVornoff:

BloatedGuppy:
The argument for authorial divinity is kind of pretentious though. I can see why it riles people up. Not that everyone is being super mature about it, but even you must agree this debate has had some hilariously misbehaved individuals on both sides of the ledger.

Yeah. But I do believe the people demanding a change have been the worst by far. At least my side of the argument didn't have people demanding their money back from a fucking charity.

But here's the thing. Dan said in that post that if Bioware releases an addendum adding closure to the ending, he's more or less okay with that. Seriously, what about that is pretentious and disagreeable? What about that makes him this insufferable asshole that some people here are making him out to be? Frankly, this whole goatfuck has given me the impression that gamers in general are just thin-skinned and petulant, and don't know how to behave when presented with an opinion different from their own.

wintercoat:
I would say that pretentious fits perfectly. Puffing up the worth of 'videogames-as-art' is pretentious. Acting like this moment will define video games' artistic worth is pretentious. Believing that if people who don't give two shits on the matter suddenly do somehow will uplift video games as a medium is severely pretentious.

Funny, I don't remember them saying that. And I still don't find any of that pretentious.

Did you watch any of their video's that talk about the 'videogames-as-art' debate?

Also, go look up the drfinition of pretentious, because the things I listed are blatantly pretentious.

Sutter Cane:

endtherapture:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

Games critics defending "artistic integrity" blah blah blah is getting so fucking old.

Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

"Artistic Integrity" is a pipe dream insisted on only in the last century or so. All the great artists before then? Never part of their consideration.

wintercoat:
Did you watch any of their video's that talk about the 'videogames-as-art' debate?

Also, go look up the drfinition of pretentious, because the things I listed are blatantly pretentious.

I did both. I stand by what I said. Is it really that hard to accept that someone just plain disagrees with you? Sheesh.

ravenshrike:
"Artistic Integrity" is a pipe dream insisted on only in the last century or so. All the great artists before then? Never part of their consideration.

So you would prefer we go back to the way things were for artists a century ago or longer?

DrVornoff:
Yeah. But I do believe the people demanding a change have been the worst by far. At least my side of the argument didn't have people demanding their money back from a fucking charity.

People from "your side of the argument" were attacking said charity for accepting money in the first place. But let's not play that game, because it's childish.

DrVornoff:
But here's the thing. Dan said in that post that if Bioware releases an addendum adding closure to the ending, he's more or less okay with that. Seriously, what about that is pretentious and disagreeable? What about that makes him this insufferable asshole that some people here are making him out to be? Frankly, this whole goatfuck has given me the impression that gamers in general are just thin-skinned and petulant, and don't know how to behave when presented with an opinion different from their own.

Meh? I saw a couple of sketchy replies. I just wanted to know if they were the same people who did the silly MMO addiction bit. And they were. And that's funny.

DrVornoff:

Thoric485:
Anyway, it's kind of funny that people are so outraged at the fans compromising BioWare's creative vision, but don't say a peep about EA's influence on the company.

Oh, you want me to shit on EA, too? Go ahead, ask me what I think of EA's business practices. Do it. You might be surprised.

Yes, I'd want you to, since people always seem to forget that in these discussions and paint BioWare as an almost independent developer. It's widely obvious that the driving force in BioWare's work these last few years has been the development time/profit ratio, just like with every successful company acquisitioned by EA and consequently driven into the ground.

It's a matter of time before their brand name stops being profitable, EA drops them and moves in for the next kill. Bringing "artistic integrity" as an argument anywhere in this disgusting process is just silly.

Dan of Extra Credits:
I understand the sense of individual ownership one can feel over this story. Bioware has expertly crafted an experience with the specific intent of making us invest ourselves in it, and they have succeeded spectacularly. And I do believe that players can tell their own story through a game (your Minecraft adventure, your WoW character's heroic career, etc). This is not one of those times. Every choice you've made in this journey was hand-crafted by the writers and artists at Bioware. They didn't give us an open field to play in; they gave us a series of branching trails to follow. We did not create those trails, even if the game works so hard to make it feel like we did. Mass Effect isn't ours to "Retake". It was never ours to begin with.

This strikes me as missing the point completely. The flexibility of a nonlinear narrative is not in the number of choices you can make - it is in the emergent breadth in theme, tone, reasons behind the protagonist's actions, and so on created by these choices. This was expressed eloquently by a different Dan on Ferretbrain. A particularly relevant quote:

Up until the final moment, Mass Effect Three could have been about a vast number of things. It could have been about idealism versus pragmatism, nationalism versus internationalism, unity versus self-interest, conflict versus reconciliation, or even - if you wanted - about organic versus synthetic life. The final moment, though, strips away all of the other possible interpretations and makes it a game about one thing and one thing only, about an inevitable conflict between synthetic and organic life, and about the necessity for a dramatic solution to that conflict, either in the form of the Reapers, or the the form of Synthesis. The ending removes all textual support for any reading of the game other than this rather tedious one.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

You have 2 minutes to explain why it matters. Hell, I will even give you 3, so you have enough time to look up what "irony" means.

Also, define "artistic value".

Irony: an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

my expectations were that anyone who would play all three Mass Effect games, would see value in games as an artform after all, the games are roughly 90% story

as to why it matters? it protects video games under the first amendment, gives certain groups less of an argument when they want to change or stop a game (remember when people were offended Shepherd could be gay? )

but most importantly because it creates better games what would Mass Effect be without any artistic direction? if all you were doing was picking a red or blue circle for red or blue 'points' and every now and then you had to shoot vague polygons that would give you even more red and blue points.

When I watch the VGA's and see Real live tea bagging, celebrities who have nothing to do with the industry and jokes aimed at a 13 year old boy I can't help but think:

"Jesus, Is this what the majority of people actually think we like?"

I play video games, but it's not the only thing I do and I don't like to be treated as if it is. The idea that video games are 'art' implies that it's something anyone could enjoy. It's easy to find someone who doesn't share your very specific taste in music but it's pretty rare to find someone who hates all music or books or movies....

Why is it that reading poorly written books is considered a good thing, while playing even the most artistic and engaging video game is considered a waste of time and childish?

That's why I care, because the medium gets no respect when it's considered a 'toy'

Thoric485:

Yes, I'd want you to, since people always seem to forget that in these discussions and paint BioWare as an almost independent developer. It's widely obvious that the driving force in BioWare's work these last few years has been the development time/profit ratio, just like with every successful company acquisitioned by EA and consequently driven into the ground.

It's a matter of time before their brand name stops being profitable, EA drops them and moves in for the next kill. Bringing "artistic integrity" as an argument anywhere in this disgusting process is just silly.

image

WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE POOR FLY'S ARTISTIC INTEGRITY?

 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked