Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues

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Limecake:
Why is it that reading poorly written books is considered a good thing, while playing even the most artistic and engaging video game is considered a waste of time and childish?

Because books have been around for hundreds of years, and games have been around for a tiny handful of years, and the standard, garden variety prejudice that people have against emerging art forms hasn't yet been bred out of the population.

That's literally the only reason, man. If you think the opportunity for games to be defined or not defined as an art form because people sent cupcakes to Bioware or something, then I...I really don't know what to say to you here. It'll be something like "you're crazy" though, and then we'll just be fighting.

Limecake:
as to why it matters? it protects video games under the first amendment, gives certain groups less of an argument when they want to change or stop a game (remember when people were offended Shepherd could be gay? )

Yeah, I remember when the games industry actually needed those first amendment rights, or when those certain groups were relevant.

Oh wait, none of that is true. Who would have thought.

Limecake:
but most importantly because it creates better games what would Mass Effect be without any artistic direction? if all you were doing was picking a red or blue circle for red or blue 'points' and every now and then you had to shoot vague polygons that would give you even more red and blue points.

And it makes a difference whether we call it artistic direction or something else? Me saying I do not give a shit about the "games r serios artsy busines" debate does not mean I think games would be better off without what you call artistic direction.

Yes, this so called "artistic direction" can make for better games. An irrelevant group of people who dont play them recognizing this is - well, irrelevant.

Limecake:
When I watch the VGA's and see Real live tea bagging, celebrities who have nothing to do with the industry and jokes aimed at a 13 year old boy I can't help but think:

"Jesus, Is this what the majority of people actually think we like?"

Thats because the VGAs are aimed at 13 year olds. And again, theres no reason to care. You dont see people who enjoy pop music worrying about their image because the grammies are a pile of crap.

Limecake:
I play video games, but it's not the only thing I do and I don't like to be treated as if it is. The idea that video games are 'art' implies that it's something anyone could enjoy.

No, it does not. That notion exists solely in your head. Thinking too far into it.

Limecake:
That's why I care, because the medium gets no respect when it's considered a 'toy'

So you care about what other people think because you care about what other people think.

Yeah, im just going to go ahead and ignore you folks now.

(Also you failed to define "art", "artistic integrity" and "artistic direction", which reinforces the notion that you have no fucking idea what you are talking about.)

EDIT: You also randomly assume Mass Effect is actually a good series, which is rightfully controversial to say the least.

DrVornoff:

ravenshrike:
"Artistic Integrity" is a pipe dream insisted on only in the last century or so. All the great artists before then? Never part of their consideration.

So you would prefer we go back to the way things were for artists a century ago or longer?

Niiiicee strawman! Yes, because I think artistic integrity is pretentious bullshit I think all working conditions for artists should reset themselves to 1900.

endtherapture:

Sutter Cane:

endtherapture:

Games critics defending "artistic integrity" blah blah blah is getting so fucking old.

Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

Oh who really gives a shit if games are art? People who care about it so much need to go out and get a life and get laid or something.

I doubt 99% like the music I do. They might consider it "noise" or say "that's not music", and you know what, that doesn't bother me in the slightest? I couldn't give a shit. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters, no one cares if it's "art" or not.

I care...And I am a college student studying his ass off to get a degree in geology. Anything that involves a great deal of imagination, focus and hard work is something I consider an art. from the monalisa to something as simple as carving a a block of wood, is art.

Jesse Billingsley:

endtherapture:

Sutter Cane:

Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

Oh who really gives a shit if games are art? People who care about it so much need to go out and get a life and get laid or something.

I doubt 99% like the music I do. They might consider it "noise" or say "that's not music", and you know what, that doesn't bother me in the slightest? I couldn't give a shit. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters, no one cares if it's "art" or not.

I care...And I am a college student studying his ass off to get a degree in geology. Anything that involves a great deal of imagination, focus and hard work is something I consider an art. from the monalisa to something as simple as carving a a block of wood, is art.

I'm studying towards a Chemistry degree. Is scientific work art? Is football art? Is a qwerty keyboard art?

BloatedGuppy:
Meh? I saw a couple of sketchy replies. I just wanted to know if they were the same people who did the silly MMO addiction bit. And they were. And that's funny.

I didn't totally agree with the point they were making, but I understood where they were coming from. I think a lot of people forget that you don't have to agree with someone all the time. It's more important to understand them. In the last few years, I've made a concerted effort to reach out and talk to people I normally wouldn't have, who disagree with me philosophically on matters of great import and also some that many (including those here) would consider trivial. But I believe I've improved as a person for having made that effort. Consequently it rubs me the wrong way when I see dismissal after dismissal after dismissal, almost always accompanied by a hollow platitude of, "You just don't get it."

Thoric485:
Yes, I'd want you to, since people always seem to forget that in these discussions and paint BioWare as an almost independent developer.

My take on the situation is that EA is falling prey to every fallacy that is currently hurting American business. They're failing to embrace the new technology, the cultural shifts, and the fact that unless they evolve quickly their business model will go the way of the dinosaurs.

On the other hand, I'm generally sympathetic toward developers because... Well, I'm an artist myself. I'm a filmmaker and musician. My friends and I are trying to raise the capital to get our own production company going. Since 2007, I've been in my starving artist phase, shunted from one shitty day job to the next, busking whenever I'm able, trying to make ends meet. And I do this instead of going into another career because I love making movies and music. To go into a career as a filmmaker or a musician or a game developer or a painter or a writer, you go in knowing that it's going to suck for a while. Probably years. You're going to spend most if not all of your life overworked and underpaid. You do it anyway because you love seeing the finished product of your labors. The personal satisfaction is worth it.

Do I believe the Bioware devs care about their projects? Yes. But EA is pulling the strings. And they've proven time and again that they don't stand by their products. They blindly follow the "conventional wisdom" even though it's killing them. I liked Dragon Age 2, but it could have been way better if given more development time. It wasn't. EA wanted the cash-in.

It's looking more and more likely that I'm just going to stop buying EA titles, even though it means no longer supporting developers that I had good times with. I'd like to help them, but at the same time I feel dirty giving my money to a publisher that's just going to continue treating them and other studios like pack mules.

You and I may not agree on a lot, but the point is that we both want the same thing in the end: we want talented people to do what they do best and not get fucked over.

ravenshrike:
Niiiicee strawman! Yes, because I think artistic integrity is pretentious bullshit I think all working conditions for artists should reset themselves to 1900.

No, it was an actual question. I have no idea what the hell you're advocating, so process of elimination is as good a place to start as any.

endtherapture:

Jesse Billingsley:

endtherapture:

Oh who really gives a shit if games are art? People who care about it so much need to go out and get a life and get laid or something.

I doubt 99% like the music I do. They might consider it "noise" or say "that's not music", and you know what, that doesn't bother me in the slightest? I couldn't give a shit. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters, no one cares if it's "art" or not.

I care...And I am a college student studying his ass off to get a degree in geology. Anything that involves a great deal of imagination, focus and hard work is something I consider an art. from the monalisa to something as simple as carving a a block of wood, is art.

I'm studying towards a Chemistry degree. Is scientific work art? Is football art? Is a qwerty keyboard art?

I was referring to art, not sports or study, I was making a reference to your "Get a life" comment...

I generally agree with their viewpoint, except the belief that if Bioware does make changes to the ending itself that it somehow means they are selling out or caving in. Anything Bioware does do is Bioware's decision and if they feel that incorporating some of the feedback will improve their game, then so be it. The feedback will be incorporated in the way they want to do it and it will fit into the existing game as they fit it in. For better or worse, that is a situation they will have to live with going forward but just because the source of the change is external and not internal, it's still their doing.

People can talk all they want about things like Da Vinco not changing the Mona Lisa once it was done but the number of words won't and can't change just how silly a thought process that is. Da Vinci couldn't change the Mona Lisa once it was out of his hands because he just didn't have the ability to do so. Today, had he released the Mona Lisa in a digital form, he certainly could have (and maybe would have) done so. He also wasn't working in a medium that is built on the foundation of creator/fan interaction.

Jesse Billingsley:

endtherapture:

Jesse Billingsley:

I care...And I am a college student studying his ass off to get a degree in geology. Anything that involves a great deal of imagination, focus and hard work is something I consider an art. from the monalisa to something as simple as carving a a block of wood, is art.

I'm studying towards a Chemistry degree. Is scientific work art? Is football art? Is a qwerty keyboard art?

I was referring to art, not sports or study, I was making a reference to your "Get a life" comment...

How is sport not an "art" then? It requires imagination, focus and hard work. As does study. As does hairdressing. As does science.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Limecake:
but most importantly because it creates better games what would Mass Effect be without any artistic direction? if all you were doing was picking a red or blue circle for red or blue 'points' and every now and then you had to shoot vague polygons that would give you even more red and blue points.

And it makes a difference whether we call it artistic direction or something else? Me saying I do not give a shit about the "games r serios artsy busines" debate does not mean I think games would be better off without what you call artistic direction.

Yes, this so called "artistic direction" can make for better games. An irrelevant group of people who dont play them recognizing this is - well, irrelevant.

so you're issue is with my wording? What term should I be using to describe this?

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Limecake:
When I watch the VGA's and see Real live tea bagging, celebrities who have nothing to do with the industry and jokes aimed at a 13 year old boy I can't help but think:

"Jesus, Is this what the majority of people actually think we like?"

Thats because the VGAs are aimed at 13 year olds. And again, theres no reason to care. You dont see people who enjoy pop music worrying about their image because the grammies are a pile of crap.

the VGA's were aimed at 13 year old's? News to me, especially because the network that hosts it considers itself the 'first network for men' who describes it's own target demographic as males 18-34?

There's a difference between being boring and having nothing to do with the medium it's supposed to be celebrating.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Limecake:
That's why I care, because the medium gets no respect when it's considered a 'toy'

So you care about what other people think because you care about what other people think.

sure do, It'd be nice if I didn't but I'm at least honest enough to admit I do care what others think of me.

Especially when they assume I'm an immature jerk because I play video games.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
(Also you failed to define "art", "artistic integrity" and "artistic direction", which reinforces the notion that you have no fucking idea what you are talking about.)

no, I don't care about your silly rules. Don't imply that I don't know what I'm talking about just because I won't explain terms to you every 5 minutes.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
EDIT: You also randomly assume Mass Effect is actually a good series, which is rightfully controversial to say the least.

really? from what I've heard a large majority of the people in 'Retake Mass Effect' have claimed the series has been great up until the last 10 minutes or so.

and I think it's widely accepted that ME1 and ME2 were good games.

Limecake:
the VGA's were aimed at 13 year old's? News to me, especially because the network that hosts it considers itself the 'first network for men' who describes it's own target demographic as males 18-34?

Ask FOX news what their target demographic is and they will say the target men and women of all ages who are intelligent. Nuff said.

Limecake:
no, I don't care about your silly rules. Don't imply that I don't know what I'm talking about just because I won't explain terms to you every 5 minutes.

So in short, "WHAA I DONT KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT SO IM JUST GOING TO CALL YOU SILLY!!" Yeah, thought so. You dont know what you are talking about.

Limecake:

sure do, It'd be nice if I didn't but I'm at least honest enough to admit I do care what others think of me.

Especially when they assume I'm an immature jerk because I play video games.

Dude, since when is this an issue anymore? Games are mainstream, and are becoming even more so with every passing year. You've got old ladies playing Bejeweled and Wii Sports, business types playing Angry Birds on the way to work, and bros playing Smash Bros.

Kahunaburger:
Dude, since when is this an issue anymore? Games are mainstream, and are becoming even more so with every passing year. You've got old ladies playing Bejeweled and Wii Sports, business types playing Angry Birds on the way to work, and bros playing Smash Bros.

Actually, it still is. I talk about games with friends in public, and we still funny looks from eavesdroppers. The stereotype of the socially retarded virgin is still kind of stuck on us. I think a lot of us tend to forget that people who are as into the medium as we are... well, we're the minority. The guy with Angry Birds on his phone and Rock Band controllers in his apartment may or may not self-identify as a gamer.

We're doing better, certainly. But there's still a ways to go.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

One hundred percent with you.

this "artistic" choice shit is kind of a lie. A good artistic choice is the "Eye" Scene from Dead Space 2, it stayed true to the games roots and added to the intensity of the mood. A bad one is the Mass Effect 3 one, completetly out of context of the game itself.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

(Also you failed to define "art", "artistic integrity" and "artistic direction", which reinforces the notion that you have no fucking idea what you are talking about.)

Art- The end product of the imagination, creative process and effort put into a creation in order to convey one or more emotions, feelings or stories to its intended audience.

Artistic Integrity- The value of stasis placed on a piece of art in order for the piece to be viewed in it's original form by every person that experiences the work.

Artistic Direction- the way the creator or creators wish the story/emotion/feeling to be told.

Kahunaburger:

This was expressed eloquently by a different Dan on Ferretbrain. A particularly relevant quote:

Up until the final moment, Mass Effect Three could have been about a vast number of things. It could have been about idealism versus pragmatism, nationalism versus internationalism, unity versus self-interest, conflict versus reconciliation, or even - if you wanted - about organic versus synthetic life. The final moment, though, strips away all of the other possible interpretations and makes it a game about one thing and one thing only, about an inevitable conflict between synthetic and organic life, and about the necessity for a dramatic solution to that conflict, either in the form of the Reapers, or the the form of Synthesis. The ending removes all textual support for any reading of the game other than this rather tedious one.

This was a great read, thanks for sharing it. I think it's a great intepretation of what BioWare tried to do, and why it pissed off so many people.

DrVornoff:
we want talented people to do what they do best and not get fucked over.

I very much agree to that.

And I don't really care if they change the ending or not, I haven't been really thrilled with the series since the second one.

It's the notion of this being some huge controversial issue, when there's all this other crap going on in the background, that rubs me the wrong way. Pandemic's closure probably got 1/100-th of the coverage this did.

DrVornoff:

Kahunaburger:
Dude, since when is this an issue anymore? Games are mainstream, and are becoming even more so with every passing year. You've got old ladies playing Bejeweled and Wii Sports, business types playing Angry Birds on the way to work, and bros playing Smash Bros.

Actually, it still is. I talk about games with friends in public, and we still funny looks from eavesdroppers. The stereotype of the socially retarded virgin is still kind of stuck on us. I think a lot of us tend to forget that people who are as into the medium as we are... well, we're the minority. The guy with Angry Birds on his phone and Rock Band controllers in his apartment may or may not self-identify as a gamer.

We're doing better, certainly. But there's still a ways to go.

Although I'm not sure it's necessary to get people to self-identify as "gamers" - after all, I read a lot, but don't self-identify as a "bookworm." I think cultural osmosis will make games mainstream, and I don't think Bioware ending DLC or whatever will have much of an impact on that process.

DrVornoff:
I didn't totally agree with the point they were making, but I understood where they were coming from. I think a lot of people forget that you don't have to agree with someone all the time. It's more important to understand them. In the last few years, I've made a concerted effort to reach out and talk to people I normally wouldn't have, who disagree with me philosophically on matters of great import and also some that many (including those here) would consider trivial. But I believe I've improved as a person for having made that effort. Consequently it rubs me the wrong way when I see dismissal after dismissal after dismissal, almost always accompanied by a hollow platitude of, "You just don't get it."

Well, you have to understand this is my point as well. If I dislike that ending, and feel a change is warranted, I'm:

- Entitled!
- A crybaby!
- Taking video games too seriously!
- A whiner!
- I don't understand art!
- I don't respect the integrity of art!
- I'm trying to force the artist to deface their art!

...and on and on. My original response to you was in reply to your statement about "non artists", which seemed like yet another variation on the "You're too much of a plebeian to understand the mighty forces at work here" barrage.

There's been very, very few people willing to talk on both sides of this issue, or reach across the aisle and accept someone else's perspective. And when you say things like:

DrVornoff:
Frankly, this whole goatfuck has given me the impression that gamers in general are just thin-skinned and petulant, and don't know how to behave when presented with an opinion different from their own.

...you're not exactly fostering an atmosphere of camaraderie and the free exchange of ideas, you're just hammering away on the insult bell.

Thoric485:

This was a great read, thanks for sharing it. I think it's a great intepretation of what BioWare tried to do, and why it pissed off so many people.

Glad you liked it!

endtherapture:

Sutter Cane:

endtherapture:

Games critics defending "artistic integrity" blah blah blah is getting so fucking old.

Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

Oh who really gives a shit if games are art? People who care about it so much need to go out and get a life and get laid or something.

I doubt 99% like the music I do. They might consider it "noise" or say "that's not music", and you know what, that doesn't bother me in the slightest? I couldn't give a shit. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters, no one cares if it's "art" or not.

If I buy a piece of art (you know that stuff you hang on your wall) I know what it is, I don't buy it then upon getting home realise there's a guy taking a poo in the bottom right corner!
unless I was buying a

Games can be beautiful, can affect the player as deeply as a fine piece of art or a song, but all these things can and have been changed.

By stamping something as "Art" critic's seem to think they have made an item untouchable, try explaining that to the artist who constantly wants to change said piece cause they arn't happy with it!

Limecake:
but most importantly because it creates better games

"Better" in the eye of the beholder? Or "better" for everyone?

image

No but seriously, why's there so much butthurt in this thread?

Another question: how does Mass Effect 3 being "art" absolve it from criticism? Anyone care to explain this?

Well, I finally got around to reading the EC on the ending linked in the original post. It was...interesting. That's one defense of the ending, I guess. That it was such a spectacular fucking failure that it got everyone talking and underlined how good the original games were.

I disagree with him that the ending was interesting in any capacity...it was way too much of a Shaggy Dog and had way too many breaks with common sense to be anything but aggravating in the extreme...but I generally respect the sentiments he's espousing.

Their MMO addiction piece was still retarded though. Seriously so, so embarrassing.

BloatedGuppy:
Are these the same guys who did the hilarious, absolutely cringe-inducing segment on MMO addiction?

Oh christ I remember that one.

James moping into the camera for two episodes? No thanks, I'll stick to the episodes that are actually interesting and not depressing as fuck.

BloatedGuppy:
Are these the same guys who did the hilarious, absolutely cringe-inducing segment on MMO video game addiction?

Yeah, yeah it was. And that's when I stopped watching them.

Starke:

BloatedGuppy:
Are these the same guys who did the hilarious, absolutely cringe-inducing segment on MMO video game addiction?

Yeah, yeah it was. And that's when I stopped watching them.

Ah right, it was. It was video game addiction. My bad. He was talking primarily about WoW, I believe, so wires got crossed in my head.

The near comical level of somberness and exaggerated import for what ultimately turned out to be spectacularly uneventful anecdotes would've made the entire thing a brilliant satirical piece, if it had been intentional.

I've found it really, really hard to take them seriously since.

See this MovieBob, this is the way to approach controversy, not as a dick, not modeling yourself on Fox News but intelligently.

Now I disagree with extra credits but at least they approached it respectfully.

Hmm...another ME3 ending thread. Well I'm just gonna go ahead and ask the same question I've asked in three or four other related threads:

"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

I haven't been asking it over and over again to be annoying, I've been asking it over and over because it hasn't been answered once. Almost as if people can't think of an answer....

IMGF:
Fallout 3's ending was changed over a much smaller outcry than this and nobody complained then. This is no different.

Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

anthony87:
Hmm...another ME3 ending thread. Well I'm just gonna go ahead and ask the same question I've asked in three or four other related threads:

"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

I haven't been asking it over and over again to be annoying, I've been asking it over and over because it hasn't been answered once. Almost as if people can't think of an answer....

Read above.

BloatedGuppy:

Ah right, it was. It was video game addiction. My bad. He was talking primarily about WoW, I believe, so wires got crossed in my head.

The near comical level of somberness and exaggerated import for what ultimately turned out to be spectacularly uneventful anecdotes would've made the entire thing a brilliant satirical piece, if it had been intentional.

I've found it really, really hard to take them seriously since.

For me the whole moral choice system in missile command just made me go what? I try and see most points of view but ... I ... just well.... what the hell? I think if there is ever a show on the internet that you can say is over thinking it it's them.

Kahunaburger:
Although I'm not sure it's necessary to get people to self-identify as "gamers" - after all, I read a lot, but don't self-identify as a "bookworm." I think cultural osmosis will make games mainstream, and I don't think Bioware ending DLC or whatever will have much of an impact on that process.

Probably not. Though I do think we're going to look back on this and say, "Jesus, let's not do that again."

BloatedGuppy:
Well, you have to understand this is my point as well. If I dislike that ending, and feel a change is warranted, I'm:

- Entitled!
- A crybaby!
- Taking video games too seriously!
- A whiner!
- I don't understand art!
- I don't respect the integrity of art!
- I'm trying to force the artist to deface their art!

...and on and on. My original response to you was in reply to your statement about "non artists", which seemed like yet another variation on the "You're too much of a plebeian to understand the mighty forces at work here" barrage.

My remarks are not directed at you personally. To be totally honest, I do think there are some anti-intellectuals in the crowd who should do us all a favor and bugger off. But if you're someone who didn't like the ending and just plain wants some closure, I'm not going to rake you over the coals for that. It's not the opinion that I have a problem with (usually). It's the way that some people have chosen to express it. Especially when they are quick to dismiss those on the opposite side as "not getting it" or being "pretentious art snobs." That's not a counterargument, that's just being a bitch.

There's been very, very few people willing to talk on both sides of this issue, or reach across the aisle and accept someone else's perspective. And when you say things like:

DrVornoff:
Frankly, this whole goatfuck has given me the impression that gamers in general are just thin-skinned and petulant, and don't know how to behave when presented with an opinion different from their own.

...you're not exactly fostering an atmosphere of camaraderie and the free exchange of ideas, you're just hammering away on the insult bell.

Touche. If it's any help, I don't have any personal problem with people saying that they didn't like the ending and that closure would be nice. But the fire-breathing rhetoric really needs to stop. Especially when they start using the word "critic" as a pejorative or start talking about art as if it's all bullshit getting in the way of their entertainment.

Frostbite3789:
Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

That's not really true, and it's a terrible tack to take with this whole debate. If ME is art, then FO3 is art. You can argue that FO3 isn't very good art, and I'll agree with you, but if it was simple as "it's fine to change BAD art" then ME3's ending wouldn't have a leg to stand on, because it's fucking terrible. FO3 still had a story, and they still made a MASSIVE change to that story via DLC. It's a perfectly appropriate analogue, and a MUCH more appropriate analogue than books or films. It's probably the closest thing to a direct comparable that we have, actually.

DrVornoff:
Touche. If it's any help, I don't have any personal problem with people saying that they didn't like the ending and that closure would be nice. But the fire-breathing rhetoric really needs to stop. Especially when they start using the word "critic" as a pejorative or start talking about art as if it's all bullshit getting in the way of their entertainment.

I think video game critics are getting a bad reputation these days, and rightfully so, the situation that exists regarding advertiser pressure and review scores is ugly, and it taints pretty much every discussion we have with or about them.

As for the art thing, I will argue that video games are art with my dying breath, I just don't understand where this "Ye canna change art! Ne'er! Ne'er can ye change it!" crap came from, because there absolutely is a precedent for changing art, and if a piece of art ever needed changing, it was that fucking ending. Yes, it's ultimately Bioware's call, but I have little to no problem with people shoving their nose in the mess they made.

But yes, we are agreed that the name calling HAS to stop, on both sides. If someone liked that ending, that's their business, I respect that. And if someone is worried about "art by committee", that's okay too, I UNDERSTAND the worry, and I respect it, but I remain in fundamental disagreement that ME3's ending merits defense in its current state.

Frostbite3789:

IMGF:
Fallout 3's ending was changed over a much smaller outcry than this and nobody complained then. This is no different.

Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

anthony87:
Hmm...another ME3 ending thread. Well I'm just gonna go ahead and ask the same question I've asked in three or four other related threads:

"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

I haven't been asking it over and over again to be annoying, I've been asking it over and over because it hasn't been answered once. Almost as if people can't think of an answer....

Read above.

I read it........

Still doesn't answer the question I asked.

BloatedGuppy:

Frostbite3789:
Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

That's not really true, and it's a terrible tack to take with this whole debate. If ME is art, then FO3 is art. You can argue that FO3 isn't very good art, and I'll agree with you, but if it was simple as "it's fine to change BAD art" then ME3's ending wouldn't have a leg to stand on, because it's fucking terrible. FO3 still had a story, and they still made a MASSIVE change to that story via DLC. It's a perfectly appropriate analogue, and a MUCH more appropriate analogue than books or films. It's probably the closest thing to a direct comparable that we have, actually.

The difference being in the ending of FO3 I was flabbergasted at the super obvious solution to this ordeal that they went with in the $15 DLC they sold me so I could keep playing the game. I had an intelligent super mutant who can survive radiation right next to me. I could send them in to input the code and everything is awesome.

I paid $15 for them to do that for me. ME3's ending had me nowhere near that pissed off. As soon as the game forced me to go in there or send the BoS member in, and ended the game I dropped my controller on the ground and went for a walk.

Frostbite3789:

IMGF:
Fallout 3's ending was changed over a much smaller outcry than this and nobody complained then. This is no different.

Fallout 3 like any Bethesda game is about as far as from story driven as you can get. People disliked that in a game where you get to dick around and do whatever you want, when you finished the incredibly bad main plot, you were no longer able to dick around in the post-apocalypse, with your high level, geared out character.

That's like if in an MMO, once you hit the top level, they straight murdered your dude and told you to start again.

Yeah, but if that was Bethesda's original intent for the game to finish that way, why do the fans' opinion matter again? See, Bethesda didn't try to defend any sort of artistic integrity of the ending. They saw that they made a mistake and fixed it.

For some reason, the ending of ME3 is being toted as an example of artistic integrity in games by developers and not as the mistake it really is. For a game that revolves around story, the ending should reflect a cohesion with the rest of the story that has been told. Mass Effect 3 does not stick to a narrative coherence.

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