Extra Credits Takes a Stab at the Mass Effect 3 issues

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT
 

Fawxy:

Another question: how does Mass Effect 3 being "art" absolve it from criticism? Anyone care to explain this?

It doesn't absolve it from criticism. People are free to talk, bitch, converse etc. on the ending as much as they like, nobody should be saying that you can't. However, people deciding that the company must change it to meet the consumer's need is the main point of contention. They can listen, but they don't have to do anything about it, it's not the consumer's call to make, it's Bioware's.

In the end, both the game reviewers calling the masses whiny and entitled, as well as the "Retake Mass Effect" people are in the wrong here. It has just completely escalated out of control.

Frostbite3789:
The difference being in the ending of FO3 I was flabbergasted at the super obvious solution to this ordeal that they went with in the $15 DLC they sold me so I could keep playing the game. I had an intelligent super mutant who can survive radiation right next to me. I could send them in to input the code and everything is awesome.

I paid $15 for them to do that for me. ME3's ending had me nowhere near that pissed off. As soon as the game forced me to go in there or send the BoS member in, and ended the game I dropped my controller on the ground and went for a walk.

FO3's ending was one of the worst endings for a game ever, I'm in total agreement with you. I feel that ME3's ending is the bigger catastrophe because of the nature of the games, the emotional investment of the audience, expectations, etc, etc, but that's a whole other kettle of fish. FO3's ending was a disaster, needed fixing, got fixed, everyone went home happy. Hoping the same happens here, all the hand wringing about the death of art notwithstanding.

I like a lot of the stuff extra credits does, but sometimes they can get so stuck up their own arses that I'm surprised they can pry themselves out.

anthony87:
"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

First of all, Fallout 3's ending wasn't changed, they just made you able to play the game after it was over. Completely different situation there.

And changing it isn't a bad thing- changing it because of the people demanding it is. Bioware made a conscious decision to end it how they did for whatever reason, and they have every right to make and uphold their artisitic choice. People are free and encouraged to voice their opinions, but making demands is what crosses the line, and giving in to demands sets a terrible precedent (people will start to think that they have control over any product as long as they can yell loud enough).

EDIT: Also, not to the person I quoted but to the rest of you out there, it's really entertaining to see how you all react. Now that you can't come up with any excuses like bribes or corruption, you just go straight to the personal insults. Stay classy.

DrVornoff:

Kahunaburger:
Although I'm not sure it's necessary to get people to self-identify as "gamers" - after all, I read a lot, but don't self-identify as a "bookworm." I think cultural osmosis will make games mainstream, and I don't think Bioware ending DLC or whatever will have much of an impact on that process.

Probably not. Though I do think we're going to look back on this and say, "Jesus, let's not do that again."

BloatedGuppy:
Well, you have to understand this is my point as well. If I dislike that ending, and feel a change is warranted, I'm:

- Entitled!
- A crybaby!
- Taking video games too seriously!
- A whiner!
- I don't understand art!
- I don't respect the integrity of art!
- I'm trying to force the artist to deface their art!

...and on and on. My original response to you was in reply to your statement about "non artists", which seemed like yet another variation on the "You're too much of a plebeian to understand the mighty forces at work here" barrage.

My remarks are not directed at you personally. To be totally honest, I do think there are some anti-intellectuals in the crowd who should do us all a favor and bugger off. But if you're someone who didn't like the ending and just plain wants some closure, I'm not going to rake you over the coals for that. It's not the opinion that I have a problem with (usually). It's the way that some people have chosen to express it. Especially when they are quick to dismiss those on the opposite side as "not getting it" or being "pretentious art snobs." That's not a counterargument, that's just being a bitch.

Dude, I agree with this so much. I'm neutral on the subject and some of their attitude is "You're either with us or against us"

Phlakes:

anthony87:
"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

First of all, Fallout 3's ending wasn't changed, they just made you able to play the game after it was over. Completely different situation there.

And changing it isn't a bad thing- changing it because of the people demanding it is. Bioware made a conscious decision to end it how they did for whatever reason, and they have every right to make and uphold their artisitic choice. People are free and encouraged to voice their opinions, but making demands is what crosses the line, and giving in to demands sets a terrible precedent (people will start to think that they have control over any product as long as they can yell loud enough).

EDIT: Also, not to the person I quoted but to the rest of you out there, it's really entertaining to see how you all react. Now that you can't come up with any excuses like bribes or corruption, you just go straight to the personal insults. Stay classy.

But the ending WAS changed.

Pre DLC ending: You die and an epilouge is shown which can vary slightly from person to person depending depending on their reputation in the game.

Post DLC ending: Uh...not sure really since I never completed Broken Steel. Project Purity gets activated so the Capital Wasteland has access to clean water I believe is what happens.

And lo...the world did not burn for it.

It was pretty obvious what EC's stance on the matter was going to be. I get where they're coming from and respect how they said it, but at this point I just shrugged off their response.

At least Dan acknowledges the ending was unsatisfying.

The whole controversy stemmed up from the ME3 ending is well-earned because it was definitely flawed; I felt letdown by it too. For the most part I agree with them on everything though. Although quite frankly I still am more disappointed at their failure of going for the more creative ending rather than applauding them for trying. However...

The stigma for the opposition side being whiny, entitled babies has been well-earned as well too. The whole 'artistic merit' part of the argument may want to be brushed off and ignored by some of the movement but they're ignoring reality. For a developer like Bioware and a series like Mass Effect brushing off that argument only cements their ignorance to reality.

Jesse Billingsley:
http://extra-credits.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2008

Nothing much to say except that Extra Credits decided to respond to this issue, and they have some pretty good views.

Thanks! This part really helps explain why I didn't like the ending, but feel no need to see it changed (although explained might help).

I really like that Bioware gave us an unpredictable ending and left us with questions about the future. I like what this ending seems to be trying to do, even if I don't think it quite succeeds. But the audience needed something slightly less nebulous and abrupt in order to have closure, resolution for this massive journey we've been on for the last four and a half years. And that's what's driving this backlash.

I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of variety in endings. The other two Mass Effect games pretty much had a single ending too, regardless of whether or not you saved the Council or salvaged the reaper. Vastly different endings based on your choices has never been what this series has been about. It's always been about how your choices affected the journey, and I've heard a great deal of variation in the journeys my friends have been taking through this game. I don't think it would be bothering people so much if it weren't for the fact that none of the endings to ME3 offer that closure we're so desperate for.

That part right there - I wish I had this to post earlier, it says what I've been trying to say better than I typically managed to say it.

Wish I could have said that better. :p

BloatedGuppy:

Starke:

BloatedGuppy:
Are these the same guys who did the hilarious, absolutely cringe-inducing segment on MMO video game addiction?

Yeah, yeah it was. And that's when I stopped watching them.

Ah right, it was. It was video game addiction. My bad. He was talking primarily about WoW, I believe, so wires got crossed in my head.

The near comical level of somberness and exaggerated import for what ultimately turned out to be spectacularly uneventful anecdotes would've made the entire thing a brilliant satirical piece, if it had been intentional.

I've found it really, really hard to take them seriously since.

As a parody it could have actually been pretty funny. The problem was that it was pretty apparent that the video that this was him pouring his heart out.

The problem is, you can't really "pour your heart out" with complete strangers because they just don't care about your well being. (Not you personally, "you" as an indefinite.) And the end result blows so many social cues you basically destroy your credibility.

I generally like EC; they discuss topics that no one else covers. That said, they have no clue what they are talking about here. We shouldn't be using "artistic integrity" as an excuse to prevent games from using their rare gift of updates to fix obvious problems. To me, it's like fixing a bug; it was in the game, and it gets taken out because it's stupid and wrong. I have no faith that BioWare will actually fix the ending instead of trying to justify themselves somehow, but we can at least give them the opportunity to show that they have learned from their mistakes. For a group that talks all the time about the distinctiveness of games, they should applaud the distinctive ability of games to fix things that are broken, and ME3 undoubtedly was. Even if you liked the ending, you can't possibly tell me that it made any sense; just that you liked the result.

anthony87:
"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

I'm mostly part of the "eh" crowd in regards to the end of the series, but I can tell you why I hope BioWare sticks to their guns with the end of the series, if you care to listen. If not, feel free to dismiss this and go about your merry way.

See, I'm all for fan input when it comes to suggestions and whatnot but when it starts to get in the way of creative freedom, then we got problems. I'm sure I don't need to bring up anything involving love interests...

But anyway, I said in another infamous thread that I see this as a problem as it implies that, if BioWare complies, they're giving up creative freedom at the expense of keeping the masses (heh) happy, exacerbated by the fact that, as another user in that same thread put it, BioWare is of the mindset of "oh noes, the peeps be unhappy" versus "yeah... we fucked up". I'm not sure if the latter applied to Fallout 3's Broken Steel, but I'm gonna assume it did since I'm just hearing about the brouhaha surrounding that one. But hey, I got a beat-ass Proton Tesla Cannon out the deal, so I'm certainly not tripping. Also, this may set a new standard of sorts among the gaming collective: "BioWare changed shit due to fan outcry. Why can't other companies do the same?"

Long and short, if BioWare seeks to "amend" the ending of their own volition I have nothing to say. If they keep on with their ways and look at it as simple damage control, then they'll certainly lose a few respect points from me and a few others.

anthony87:

But the ending WAS changed.

Pre DLC ending: You die and an epilouge is shown which can vary slightly from person to person depending depending on their reputation in the game.

Post DLC ending: Uh...not sure really since I never completed Broken Steel. Project Purity gets activated so the Capital Wasteland has access to clean water I believe is what happens.

And lo...the world did not burn for it.

The new ending was that you sent your radiation immune friend (fawkes) into the highly irradiated chamber.

I think bethesda wasn't too pleased with changing the ending, because the epilogue pretty much says "You didn't kill yourself for no reason and instead chose to be intelligent and made a choice that let everyone live. You are a douche. how dare you not kill yourself."

OT:

Apparently the ending was hijacked by Casey Hudson and Mac Walters. They wrote the final mission without any input from the other writers.

I don't believe the ending is the same as the rest of the game. The story isn't made by the nebulous mass of Bioware, it's made by the writers all working together. If all of the writers don't work together on one part, it's not the same work anymore.

I believe that the game is incomplete and the ending is just a makeshift wooden tower added to a beautiful limestone castle because they ran out of bricks or something. If they can take off that blemish that most of the designers never wanted and replace it with something that matches the rest of the castle, why stop it?

I believe artistic integrity only applies in a group work when the whole group's goals are reached, not just the head of the group.

BloatedGuppy:
I think video game critics are getting a bad reputation these days, and rightfully so, the situation that exists regarding advertiser pressure and review scores is ugly, and it taints pretty much every discussion we have with or about them.

I'm not saying the system doesn't have problems, but even the most eloquent and reasonable critics are getting shit on, and that just irritates me.

As for the art thing, I will argue that video games are art with my dying breath, I just don't understand where this "Ye canna change art! Ne'er! Ne'er can ye change it!" crap came from, because there absolutely is a precedent for changing art, and if a piece of art ever needed changing, it was that fucking ending. Yes, it's ultimately Bioware's call, but I have little to no problem with people shoving their nose in the mess they made.

But yes, we are agreed that the name calling HAS to stop, on both sides. If someone liked that ending, that's their business, I respect that. And if someone is worried about "art by committee", that's okay too, I UNDERSTAND the worry, and I respect it, but I remain in fundamental disagreement that ME3's ending merits defense in its current state.

I have mixed feelings about changing the ending, but I doubt my input will push things toward one outcome or another. I'm just waiting to see how this all shakes down. Whatever happens will happen and I'll figure out where to go from there. Either way, I'll move on with my life once I've made my decision.

I read this sentence

"I don't think it's a bad ending. It is an unsatisfying ending, which isn't quite the same thing"

I know that the rest of the article will just annoy me. I just want to say the reason it IS a bad ending IS because it IS an unsatisfying ending. I agree they aren't the same thing but in this case they are so related they could be brother and sister.

Kahunaburger:
[quote="Thoric485" post="9.359349.14174300"]

image

WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE POOR FLY'S ARTISTIC INTEGRITY?

I also really didn't need to see that picture at 01:20 in the morning just before going to bed, oh it's going to be a fun nights kip.

Gaaah. Can we please just stop talking about ME3? Stop demanding a new ending, stop telling people to not demand a new ending. Just see what Bioware does, and shut up! I haven't even played Mass Effect, but literally every thread in the gaming section is about it!

Does it really matter that much? Does it matter that Mass Effect got a bad ending, does it matter that the fan reaction was kinda out of proportion. Please stop talking about it. (yes I'm aware I'm contributing to the problem right now...)

Ah well. Don't worry, I'm not as angry in real life as the number of exclamation marks in my post implies.

SageRuffin:

anthony87:
"Why is the idea of Bioware changing the ending a la Fallout 3 such a bad thing?"

I'm mostly part of the "eh" crowd in regards to the end of the series, but I can tell you why I hope BioWare sticks to their guns with the end of the series, if you care to listen. If not, feel free to dismiss this and go about your merry way.

See, I'm all for fan input when it comes to suggestions and whatnot but when it starts to get in the way of creative freedom, then we got problems. I'm sure I don't need to bring up anything involving love interests...

But anyway, I said in another infamous thread that I see this as a problem as it implies that, if BioWare complies, they're giving up creative freedom at the expense of keeping the masses (heh) happy, exacerbated by the fact that, as another user in that same thread put it, BioWare is of the mindset of "oh noes, the peeps be unhappy" versus "yeah... we fucked up". I'm not sure if the latter applied to Fallout 3's Broken Steel, but I'm gonna assume it did since I'm just hearing about the brouhaha surrounding that one. But hey, I got a beat-ass Proton Tesla Cannon out the deal, so I'm certainly not tripping. Also, this may set a new standard of sorts among the gaming collective: "BioWare changed shit due to fan outcry. Why can't other companies do the same?"

Long and short, if BioWare seeks to "amend" the ending of their own volition I have nothing to say. If they keep on with their ways and look at it as simple damage control, then they'll certainly lose a few respect points from me and a few others.

I appreciate you presenting your argument in that manner.

But for me at least, Bioware hasn't surrendered their control of fans, they still as the ultimate determinant. But there is nothing to say they can't realize that they fucked up and say "we messed up and by using the unique advantages of this medium we are going to correct this mistake".

Like to me, it's impossible for the Fans to make them change as the fandom simply doesn't have the ability to make demands. The best they can do is make requests.

I think we are pretty close honestly...

wow >.>

nice to see the butthurt is in full effect, still, even when some one approaches the issue with some class.

but then, the ME3 ending thing has pretty much turned in to 'if your not with us your against us' anyway, regardless of whats actually said

Heaven's Guardian:
Even if you liked the ending, you can't possibly tell me that it made any sense; just that you liked the result.

You know what, I'm mostly with you on this. I probably could've lived with the Reapers being apocalyptic warbots of indescribable origin hell-bent on exterminating life and ending it there. I certainly would like for their origins and motives to be properly explained, but that's probably not gonna happen.

But I'm one of those weird guys who looked at the series like so: you either destroy the Reapers or you don't, and you live at the end or you don't. In that regard, the ending did everything it needed to. And just like everything else in the series, all the cracks and holes that need spackling I can do myself (i.e. my FemShep's a master martial artist. Jack, and Vega incidentally, learned that the hard way.).

Frostbyte666:

Kahunaburger:

image

WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE POOR FLY'S ARTISTIC INTEGRITY?

I also really didn't need to see that picture at 01:20 in the morning just before going to bed, oh it's going to be a fun nights kip.

But he looks so happy, what could be wrong with that? Unless you're looking at the fly...

Of course the ending opens up a whole new line of questioning that simply makes it illogical. The reapers would have knowledge of the crucible( i mean for pete's sake the catalyst is the master of the reapers), why didn;t they make their own crucible and use it's power for their own ends. I mean the thing could rewrite the dna of all species in the galaxy it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think it could indoctrinate everyone in the galaxy at once therefore making reapers redundant and unnecessary.

the ending is not artistic, it's just nonsensical.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

When have they ever taken a different position?

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

I desperately hope Bioware doesn't overwrite what they've done. Not because I think it's perfect (I don't), but because they made an artistic choice.

No, fuck this, im done. Im never reading anything remotely related to EC again. I knew it was coming, I read it anyway, fuck this, fuck EC, fuck everything.

*Leaves tossing over random objects and kicking doors*

(Seriously though, I disagree. I knew EC would role out the pretentious artistic vision shit.)

THANKS MATE. I suspected as much, but saved me the 3 mins of my life that would take to read their imput, now i can do something better, like pocking my eyes with my finger or counting the bricks at the wall. While i would find interesting to actually speak with those guys, their videos and post are one of the few things hipster enough to make me sick.

i agree in that the ending should be changed in a way that doesn't change how bioware ended it. even if you don't want to call it an art form, it would be like if you wrote a story and someone came by, called it shit, then rewrote it. how would you feel?

and with the people talking about fallout 3, i found the ending to be a great ending. i was sad that i died, i hated it that it ended, but hey, i can go back and play the game differently this time. it was a well written ending, and was like a tragedy. i did like that i could keep playing after the new ending, but still, i feel that prevents it's ability to have any closure and have any effect on me. the ending was sad, i felt sad after it was done. but the game never shows themes for it being a happy game. you start out and your mom dies. later, your dad dies, not looking up too much for you. and you don't have to die, you can send in the paladin to do it instead of you, but it still ends. the game had an ending and brought it closure for what i did. it made me feel, that's why i liked it.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Sutter Cane:
Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

You have 2 minutes to explain why asking for a different ending was disrespectful, and why game critics "respecting" (read that in an extremely patronizing voice) games as an "artform" (you know the drill) makes the slightest bit of fucking difference.

Just a hunch, but I'm guessing you've never tried to create anything ever in the entirety of your life.

canadamus_prime:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Sutter Cane:
Yeah, how DARE game critics want to treat games as a true art form? Shame on them for trying to treat the medium with a little bit of respect.

You have 2 minutes to explain why asking for a different ending was disrespectful, and why game critics "respecting" (read that in an extremely patronizing voice) games as an "artform" (you know the drill) makes the slightest bit of fucking difference.

Just a hunch, but I'm guessing you've never tried to create anything ever in the entirety of your life.

Stop trusting your instincts. They are no good.

Starke:
As a parody it could have actually been pretty funny. The problem was that it was pretty apparent that the video that this was him pouring his heart out.

The problem is, you can't really "pour your heart out" with complete strangers because they just don't care about your well being. (Not you personally, "you" as an indefinite.) And the end result blows so many social cues you basically destroy your credibility.

It's not even that I don't care about his well being. It's that, going by that story, his well being was never really in jeopardy. He liked some games, some pretty low impact shit happened, and now he's fine. The end! Given the emotionally heady tone he adopted I was anticipating stories of smashed relationships and alienated kids and lost jobs and a once promising life derailed. It was an utter non event, and he completely misjudged the impact of it. It's like trying to describe a dream to a friend. For you, it's fraught with emotion and subtext and meaning. For the friend, it's a bizarre little anecdote that is utterly meaningless and doesn't apply to them in any way.

klaynexas3:
it was a well written ending, and was like a tragedy. i did like that i could keep playing after the new ending, but still, i feel that prevents it's ability to have any closure and have any effect on me.

Hehehe really? Really? I remember there was kind of a "BLAT" noise, and you were a little bit of dust, and then you got some really perfunctory aftermath paragraphs, and then the game was over. I guess you could argue that the CONCEPT of the sacrifice was kind of moving, but the execution was so hilariously awful I actually can't stop laughing while I'm writing this.

No...Broken Steel was necessary, unfortunately.

Phlakes:
First of all, Fallout 3's ending wasn't changed, they just made you able to play the game after it was over. Completely different situation there.

Phlakes, you are incorrect sir. They inverted the death of the primary character. If that's "not changing it" then your definition of what constitutes a "change" is terrifyingly inscrutable.

and I think it's widely accepted that ME1 and ME2 were good games.

Here's my take

Mass Effect 1 was a poor game with a great story and atmosphere - 6/10

Mass Effect 2 was an all round great game - 8/10

Mass Effect 3 was a great game with a poorly paced story and schizophrenic atmosphere - 7/10

All in all the series averages out at 7/10 which would imply the entire series to be good, including 3

1 and 2 has spectacular openings and endings but both are insanely linear and turn out your choices change the ending very little.

3 has a spectacular opening and (if we're counting the final assault as the ending and everything after the

as the ending cutscene) then the ending is also spectacular, both of which are insanely linear and turn out your choices change the ending very little.

Now I know we're all invested in this world and it's characters but as Dan says, it's not a good ending because of it's lack of closure.

We all wanna know what happens to Garrus, Liara, Tali etc etc etc and

really isn't good enough.

However,

Should they change the ending to the indoctrination theory ending and say it was all a dream? No, seriously no, some parts of the IT are really stupid and honestly "it was all a dream" would really piss me off.

Should they retcon the game and patch the ending like it's a bug? Well, if Bioware have a fully complete ending they originally wanted to put in the game, go for it. If they have the ending they want, then no, leave it be.

Should they explain the ending better in some post-game, playable DLC starring your remaining squadmates to give us all some closure on them and on what EXACTLY happened, just to clear up a few plot holes? Yes, definitely, sounds good to me. We could take control of a few of our favourite characters, role play as someone other than commander shepard, and gain all the closure through flashbacks and an extra few missions on a random planet/hub world. I'd enjoy that!

Jesse Billingsley:
http://extra-credits.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2008

Nothing much to say except that Extra Credits decided to respond to this issue, and they have some pretty good views.

That's a nice shift from the video where they said they were addressing it and proceeded to miss every possible point. And do almost no research on the matter, at that.

...Unless they continued on more of the same.

Berenzen:

It doesn't absolve it from criticism. People are free to talk, bitch, converse etc. on the ending as much as they like, nobody should be saying that you can't. However, people deciding that the company must change it to meet the consumer's need is the main point of contention. They can listen, but they don't have to do anything about it, it's not the consumer's call to make, it's Bioware's.

Which in no way changes based on whether or not people are demanding it.

haha, oh wow. Oh EC, you suck. Hey artistic hacks, guess what. This is a game, a product one buys and spends money on. Even if it were art, the incomplete nature of the game's ending makes it an incomplete product (art or otherwise). Its not my job to finish "writing" the story, when I paid for a complete product. There's a difference between a cliffhanger and an incomplete story. A cliffhanger episode is part of a complete story, and leaves off with the expectation that there will be a part 2 next time. An incomplete story simply fails to resolve the primary conflicts. Stop sucking on Kubrick's wang and get over yourself. 2001 was not a good movie, stop trying to force that on us. 2010 had a story and was a better movie for it. Notice how the rest of the games have a story, and the ending completely ignores it. I could have been about anything, but instead we got an ending that wasn't about anything at all. Its a sudden screeching halt to what had been a story.

Its not my job as the viewer/reader to finish the job. This isn't TV or an art gallery. This isn't furniture, there's no "some assembly required" sign on the game case. This is something I bought, and expected to be complete upon purchase.

This game was a "choose your own adventure book" that only has one ending page.

Aircross:
I respect what Bioware has done, and I hope they don't cave in to the massive amount of whining.

Sure, I am disappointed in how they didn't uphold everything they said they would, but the best thing I can do is to express my disappointment and not purchase their products until they shape up.

Leave the past as it is and focus on the future, bringing back the Bioware we once knew.

Seriously don't hold your breath ... EA doesn't know how to shape up. They only know how to exist in perpetual freefall. The Bioware you knew died when those aquisition papers were signed and the lead designers left.

Alright, I think I should weigh in on the situation.

To the people who want to change the ending: Don't you think that, if you liked the series to this point, one 10 minute scene that you don't like is fine? Sure, it's the end, but isn't it more about the road you take than the destination? I remember Virmire, loyalty missions, and all those great scenes throughout the series WAY more than I remember the ending of each game. Nothing can be perfect, and, rather than asking for this game's ending to change, why not suggest that BioWare not make this type of ending in the future?

To the people who hate the people who want the ending changed: Don't you think that they, as consumers, have the right to criticize? While it could be done in better ways, isn't it better to ask to improve flaws than to say something is perfect? I personally believe that's the only way to reach perfection. While you may not agree, I still think you should try to see from everyone's perspective.

To the people who hate team B: Don't you think that the way you tell them off is a bit wrong? Shouldn't you instead express your own ideas, rather than try to call them "pretentious?" They believe in "art" in a different way than you, and "art" is something with no true meaning. Some view it one way, others another. "Art" is entirely based on opinion, and, while I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I AM saying you should express it differently.

Edit: Double post.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked