I think this video is one of the best explanations I've seen for why the ME3 ending is terrible. (Yes, it's deliberately Plinkettish, but I'm fine with it, being a Plinkett fan myself. There's no cat rape in this, at least.)
Anyway, at about the 30:00 mark in the video, this guy starts talking about how Bioware could fix the ending. He doesn't really go into the indoctrination theory, other than to observe that it sorta-kinda feels like an Ass Pull. After reviewing some of the examples on that TV Tropes page, I think I get where he's coming from.
I've read about the IT myself, and on the one hand, yeah, I can see how it would work, but on the other hand: what would using it mean in practice? It'd mean that, after the first fifteen-minute sequence on the Citadel turns out to be a Reaper-induced fever dream, Bioware would have to add a second, "real" Citadel sequence.
Video Guy had a less complicated idea: remove the Star Child scene. Bioware shouldn't try to "clarify" it, or even justify it--that scene is where most of the problems lie, so they should just completely take it out.
That made me wonder: instead of making a new ending in which the game essentially spends its final moments repeating itself, what if Bioware did the original Citadel sequence right? For example, Shepard beams up to the Citadel, there's the final confrontation with the Illusive Man, Anderson's (perfect, IMHO) death scene happens, Hackett calls to say the Crucible's not firing--and then, as the fleet keeps the Reapers at bay, Shepard has to find a way to trigger it (while trying not to bleed to death). The final result depends on the war assets you found, as well as the decisions you made throughout the series. The Star Child scene never happens. And that's it. No indoctrination theory needed.
I think that'd be a much simpler solution, and I'm sure that the less work Bioware has to put into an alternate ending, the more likely we are to get one.
Thoughts?
EDIT: The guy made a video specifically about the indoctrination theory. He still doesn't care for it. This one's much shorter.
The theory makes things more satisfying for whats left of the ending. Besides, it makes sense if one thinks about it. It also means ending DLC is on the way.
Terminate421: The theory makes things more satisfying for whats left of the ending. Besides, it makes sense if one thinks about it. It also means ending DLC is on the way.
indeed, I for myself only embraced it because I am hoping that Bioware will make use of it to actually make a dramatic ending with it. The Idea is too good to be thrown out.
There's sufficient evidence there to support indoc theory if Bioware ever decided to go that way, which they almost certainly won't. The problem with it is it AGGRESSIVELY retcons what they already have, and they've wasted a lot of time and energy standing behind what they already have, so it's extremely unlikely that they're going to do a tabula rasa on it at this point. I suspect we'll get something that attempts to add context and clarity to the Star Child. Whether or not that leads to a satisfying ending, we'll see. I suspect a best case scenario is we'll get a poor ending that we can live with, as opposed to an atrocious ending that decimates the fan base.
Terminate421: The theory makes things more satisfying for whats left of the ending. Besides, it makes sense if one thinks about it. It also means ending DLC is on the way.
As Yahtzee said in his Deus Ex: Human Revolution review about leaving what was supposed to be a conclusion as a cliffhanger (lol oxymoron, conclusion cliffhanger), "...anyone who pulls that shit deserves to have their hands cut off and sold back to them for 1200 Microsoft Points."
If Bioware releases DLC for an ending, then it's as good as saying that they screwed up.
Terminate421: The theory makes things more satisfying for whats left of the ending. Besides, it makes sense if one thinks about it. It also means ending DLC is on the way.
As Yahtzee said in his Deus Ex: Human Revolution review about leaving what was supposed to be a conclusion as a cliffhanger (lol oxymoron, conclusion cliffhanger), "...anyone who pulls that shit deserves to have their hands cut off and sold back to them for 1200 Microsoft Points."
If Bioware releases DLC for an ending, then it's as good as saying that they screwed up.
Personally I don't think the Star Child needs to go. Rather I feel that the scene should be reworked to allow Shepard to point out the flaws in it's logic, exposing it as a liar. Perhaps the Star Child then morphs into Harbinger ('cos how weird is it that Harbinger never says a damned word despite never shutting up in ME2). Cue brief exchange where Shepard realises that Harbinger is scared, or as close to scared as is possible for a Reaper. Aprehensive maybe. You find a way to activate the crucible, and it sends out a pulse that carries through the relays without destroying them, which causes minor malfunctions in the Reaper systems, similar to how Possessed Saren's death screwed up Sovereign, though not as severe. Weapon misfires, engine stalls and shields alternating on and off. Nothing utterly crippling, but enough to give the assembled fleets an edge.
Based on your war assets, the Reapers either win, you manage a bleak, highly pyrrhic victory, or you take the Reapers down without crippling losses. Preferably with various shades inbetween, and preferably involving a cutscene that changes significantly based on your choices throughout the games. Cue reuniting with any surviving crew members for some sweet, sweet closure. The mystique of the Reapers is maintained, and we get the possibility for a relatively happy ending if the player works his ass off. Just as is possible in Mass Effect 2.
I personally don't like the indoctrination theory, if only because of the implication that it was always the intention to withold the real ending for cash. I find that possibility terribly foreboding for the future of the industry.
Indoctrination theory is false for one simple reason. (Just for the record I haven't played Jade Empire or NWN) Bioware doesn't do subtlety. They do morally grey, but they don't do subtle. FFS, the good guys in DA:O are called Grey Wardens, in a game all about ambiguous choices. The only time they have done anything subtle was KOTOR, and they fully explained the twist afterwards. Indoctrination assumes an unprecedented level of subtlety.
DrWilhelm: Personally I don't think the Star Child needs to go. Rather I feel that the scene should be reworked to allow Shepard to point out the flaws in it's logic, exposing it as a liar. Perhaps the Star Child then morphs into Harbinger ('cos how weird is it that Harbinger never says a damned word despite never shutting up in ME2).
Yeah, there probably should have been a final confrontation with Harbinger. And it couldn't be a fight, obviously, because Shepard's down to a pistol, no shields, no armor, and a hole in his/her gut. In my hypothetical Star Child-free version, I figured that Shepard would need to find a way, not just to activate the Crucible, but to get the Crucible's energy to just take out Reapers (as opposed to the Reapers, the relays, the Normandy, etc.). Like, maybe he/she could've gotten on the radio and called Harbinger out ("Hey, I'm still alive, I'm up here, you missed me again, how come the immortal unstoppable death machine can't freaking aim, nyah nyah!"), and lured it up to/into the Crucible somehow, then channeled the beam of space magic through it in order to destroy it and the other Reapers.
As for the Catalyst, if it's not the Star Child, I think it should've actually been the Citadel itself--or more precisely, the Citadel's hidden mass relay. Shepard could've activated it and used it to connect the Crucible to the entire mass relay network, in order to distribute the Reaper-killing space magic. The war assets could've come into play here, too: if you didn't find enough Crucible parts, it misfires, destroying the relays and most of the galaxy in the process.
DrWilhelm: I personally don't like the indoctrination theory, if only because of the implication that it was always the intention to withold the real ending for cash. I find that possibility terribly foreboding for the future of the industry.
Seconded. I'm willing to pay for an alternate ME3 ending--but only because it's Mass Effect, and only because it's Bioware. And this will be the first and last time I do it.
If it means we can slip in an ending that makes me actually want to put that game back in my xbox to do something besides play multiplayer then yes, the indoctrination theory is our best friend.
Yeah, there probably should have been a final confrontation with Harbinger. And it couldn't be a fight, obviously, because Shepard's down to a pistol, no shields, no armor, and a hole in his/her gut.
Yeah but its the best pistol in the game, it takes down Marauder Shields in a few shots. Despite the disadvantages, I reckon Shepard has never been in better shape to take down a Reaper on his/her own.
Yeah, there probably should have been a final confrontation with Harbinger. And it couldn't be a fight, obviously, because Shepard's down to a pistol, no shields, no armor, and a hole in his/her gut.
Yeah but its the best pistol in the game, it takes down Marauder Shields in a few shots. Despite the disadvantages, I reckon Shepard has never been in better shape to take down a Reaper on his/her own.
Hey, yeah. I wish I'd had that pistol during the Reaper fight on Rannoch. Maybe the Alliance shouldn't have bothered building that big expensive Crucible. They could've just mass-produced those pistols and welded them to the sides of all the ships.
Also, I guess I need to go find some more indoctrination theory-related stuff, but the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. I don't think indoctrination has ever depended on the Reapers "tricking" people into doing what they wanted, as the theory implies; they literally rewired your brain and made you do stuff. Fighting it off shouldn't be possible at all. The only character we've ever seen resisting indoctrination was Benezia, but that was because she'd had a thousand years to practice alien psychic stuff--and even she wasn't able to do it for more than a minute or two. (Plus I think she said it took weeks of near-continuous contact with a Reaper to indoctrinate you. Shepard's spent a fair bit of time around Reaper tech, but I don't think it's been that long.)
Besides, if the ending was a hallucination brought on by Harbinger, why would there be a "destroy" option at all? Surely the Reapers wouldn't want Shepard to think that was even a possibility...
I've come to personally accept the indoctrination theory as MY canon. Sure, it essentially means that there has been no resolution to the Reaper crisis and Shepard is still in London. But at least it does a decent job of explaining the glaring inconsistencies present throughout the last 15 minutes of the series.
Really, we have yet to see an explanation that is even 70% satisfactory so until Bioware tells us something, I'm going to have to go with my interpretation of the least of all evils.
Fr]anc[is: Indoctrination theory is false for one simple reason. (Just for the record I haven't played Jade Empire or NWN) Bioware doesn't do subtlety. They do morally grey, but they don't do subtle. FFS, the good guys in DA:O are called Grey Wardens, in a game all about ambiguous choices. The only time they have done anything subtle was KOTOR, and they fully explained the twist afterwards. Indoctrination assumes an unprecedented level of subtlety.
Pretty much this. I have looked over the theory and have dismissed it with Occam's Razor alone. The fact that this theory requires you to dig so deep to bring about these plot points, some of which are blatantly inferred and not explained by the writing at all leads me to believe that it's false and this shitty ending is just the result of shitty writing and a looming deadline. Bioware is very good about story, it's the one thing they do right in all of the games I have played from them. Until now.. ( I haven't played DA:2 yet)
Fr]anc[is: Indoctrination theory is false for one simple reason. (Just for the record I haven't played Jade Empire or NWN) Bioware doesn't do subtlety. They do morally grey, but they don't do subtle. FFS, the good guys in DA:O are called Grey Wardens, in a game all about ambiguous choices. The only time they have done anything subtle was KOTOR, and they fully explained the twist afterwards. Indoctrination assumes an unprecedented level of subtlety.
Pretty much this. I have looked over the theory and have dismissed it with Occam's Razor alone. The fact that this theory requires you to dig so deep to bring about these plot points, some of which are blatantly inferred and not explained by the writing at all leads me to believe that it's false and this shitty ending is just the result of shitty writing and a looming deadline. Bioware is very good about story, it's the one thing they do right in all of the games I have played from them. Until now.. ( I haven't played DA:2 yet)
My big problem with the indoctrination theory is that it just doesn't gel with what I know about indoctrination itself - indoctrination is a subtle process, and doesn't involve things like major, overt visual hallucinations.
My take is that Shepard is critically injured by the reaper beam, but still manages to get close enough the the "conduit" to mentally interface with the Crucible, and everything we see after the beam hits is a dying Shepard's overwhelmed brain desperately trying to make sense of the experience.
The first thing you need to understand about the Indoctrination Theory is that it was a theory born out of the confusion left by all the plotholes of the as-is ending. The only reason people came up with it was to make sense of things like "How did Anderson get to a platform that only has one path - the one you're walking on - leading to it and you never see him? How did your final squadmates get back up to the Normandy to be in the crash-landing scene at the very end when they were just on the ground making the final charge towards the beam? Stuff like that. Basically things that make a literal interpretation of the ending sequence very hard to believe.
But the IT has a number of holes in it as well, which is why it's just a theory.
1: If indeed the final sequences are just indoctrination hallucinations going on within Shepard's mind, then first and foremost that means that no matter what ending you pick, the story isn't actually over. If it's just Shepard fighting against Harbinger's will with a 1 out of 3 chance of breaking free of indoctrination, that means that even if he does break free he's still laying broken and bloody on the ground on Earth and the Reapers are still...well, Reaping. No one ever made it to the Citadel. No one ever opened the arms. The Crucible was never plugged in. Shepard fails to destroy the Reapers. Which leads into
2: What's up the the Star Gazer scene? Even if you assume that 1 is wrong and that Shepard breaking free of Indoctrination suddenly ends the war, that would mean that you've still got a 2 out of 3 chance of making the wrong choice and losing. So say you make one of the wrong choices and lose to Indoctrination....that would mean the Reapers win. So should Star Gazer kinda...not exist?
And finally, 3: It's been said that the ending movie with the beam shooting through the relays and the Normandy crashing on some tropical planet is just a final dream granted to Shepard in order to placate him into believing he did the right thing. Alrightt, fair enough...so what about if he makes the "right" choice and destroys all synthetics, thus breaking free of Indoctrination? Wouldn't that mean there should be no vision? And even if there is, why would they show him such a vision if he's already broken free of the Indoctrination?
As I said, the IT was a theory created to make sense of the plotholes in the ending that prevent the ending from being taken in a literal sense. That said, however, the ending with its plotholes makes more sense than the Indoctrination theory due to the outcome. I just can't imagine them ending the series before the war with the Reapers was over, and that would have to be true in order for the IT to be true.
So, and I know it's a long-winded way to get to this point, as to the question of "Do we NEED the IT?" I'd say kinda-sorta. It does indeed patch up a lot of the holes (and there's a very well made youtube video that fully explains how the IT can be extrapolated through ME 1, 2, and 3), but is it a perfect fit? No.
Personally, here's how I would have written the ending.
A brief and very simple tweeking of the current 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
Pretty sure that ending would be nice and neat and satiate everyone's desire for closure on their decisions.
2: What's up the the Star Gazer scene? Even if you assume that 1 is wrong and that Shepard breaking free of Indoctrination suddenly ends the war, that would mean that you've still got a 2 out of 3 chance of making the wrong choice and losing. So say you make one of the wrong choices and lose to Indoctrination....that would mean the Reapers win. So should Star Gazer kinda...not exist?
I will say that I have a few theories about the Star Gazer.
1) If indeed we did lose and the reaper harvest us, then the SG scene is just the next cycle. Sure they look human but doesn't mean they are. Remember Liara made a machine to tell the story of Shepard and warn about the Reapers. It seem a lot of people either forgot about this or just don't add it up.
2) The game was told by a story teller(Or at least the 3rd game) and the last part of it is what he got wrong. Since he said "there are some parts that are lost in time." I don't like this as much, but hey bioware is crazy like that.
3) We did beat the reapers and it was just a little show case that Shepard legend is still being told. It doesn't have to do with ANYTHING of the IT but just give a small "yay" that Shepard is now a legend and a hero.
True I'm just making things up but eh I'm just looking at the game and trying to fit pieces in. I still highly doubt bioware would do a 180 on the ending. With so much plotholes that even a monkey could write a better ending.
(The rant below is not towards you)
Anyways, whatever happens happen. I would be overjoy to see the IT being work in. It doesn't have to go by what the fans are saying. Though I will say this, Shepard wakes up on Earth. He not on the citadel, he couldn't have live through another reenter like that without armor, helmet and etc. And there no way in hell that my shepard would listen to the reapers after all the times I told Tim that We can NOT control the reapers.
What does the kid say? "Oh yeah you can control us." I call bullshit. Shepard is just human as Tim was. There no controlling the reapers. True, their motive could still be the same but they would not just give up that easily and let you have a choice to kill them.
I think it's an amusing thing to come up with, but the way some people appear to take it so seriously makes me facepalm. Yeah, it does not seem to fit their intent at all. And it seems silly to care so much you make something up and go with it with such spirit.
Outcast107: 1) If indeed we did lose and the reaper harvest us, then the SG scene is just the next cycle. Sure they look human but doesn't mean they are. Remember Liara made a machine to tell the story of Shepard and warn about the Reapers. It seem a lot of people either forgot about this or just don't add it up.
I've heard this theory before, that Star Gazer is actually some random species from the next cycle, but I don't buy it. Just real quick regarding the time-capsule, that's assuming the thing lasts and that future species would be able to find/understand it.
As for SG being part of the next cycle, even assuming that it IS part of the next cycle and they ARE able to understand it, why would they have legends about the heroic failure of Shepard? Suppose you pick an Indoctrination choice. That means that if Shepard isn't dead, he/she would go on to commit atrocities and betrayals in the name of the Reapers. If you choose correctly, Shepard still didn't win the war with the Reapers. The Crucible plan still failed. And really all that's left as hope for the next cycle would be the Crucible plans themselves, and Shepard really didn't have much of anything to do with the Crucible itself.
2) The game was told by a story teller(Or at least the 3rd game) and the last part of it is what he got wrong. Since he said "there are some parts that are lost in time." I don't like this as much, but hey bioware is crazy like that.
This actually brings up a point that I've had and that Bioware has kinda-sorta confirmed: they fully intended to make the ending this confusing so that they could sell some DLC that - as Bioware described the DLC they'll release to satisfy their fanbase - "expands beyond the ending of the game". Think about it, what's the last thing SG says? "Well, it's getting late, but ok. One more story." It is entirely possible that this "One more story" will be Shepard (or someone) finishing the war with the Reapers. This actually goes more to support the IT since it implies that the war isn't over by the end of ME3. But I've been playing both sides of the argument since I know that neither can be proven correct but both definitely have their points.
3) We did beat the reapers and it was just a little show case that Shepard legend is still being told. It doesn't have to do with ANYTHING of the IT but just give a small "yay" that Shepard is now a legend and a hero.
:P Pretty sure that's actually what the scene is supposed to onvey. The SG scene suggests that Shepard WAS successful (no matter which choice you pick since you get this scene with every ending, this goes against the IT) in ending the war and defeating the Reapers. As such legends are still being told about "The" Shepard that broke the galactic cycle of genocide and saved all Organic life.
As for Bioware writing in general, you have to keep in mind: with the release of that "Final Hours of Mass Effect 3" deal that gives you a behind the scenes look at the making of the ending, we learn that Hudson decided to cut a LOT of stuff out of the ending that he deemed "unnecessary". I really can't help but wonder what the response would have been to the ending as it was originally written. The problem is that the literal interpretation and the IT are direct opposites. The IT wonderfully explains everything right up to what happens after you make your choice. The literal interpretation is full of holes until you get to the part where you make your choice, at which point the war is over and Shepard is the savior to be hailed by the entire galaxy which allows for the SG scene.
:P But really, the strongest evidence that I've seen that it's supposed to be a literal interpretation is actually this video:
I just cannot believe that Bioware - or any game company - could come up with a plotline that subtle and perfect that spans the course of many years put into 3 games. :P
When you get to the bare fundamentals of the theory, it basically just pointing at anything that didn't make sense in the third game and going ITS ALL A DREAM!!! Which, is a poor excuse no matter how plausible you think it is. Bioware openly saying "Oh yea, that popular theory that fixes our horrible game so that everyone loves us again? Yea thats canon now." would be pretty spineless to be honest.
Lol I seen that video before. It what got me to believe. Anyways
1) Well for one thing, hard to tell how much story Liara added or if she even survive the ordeal if this cycle did die out. So could say Liara never got to write down that shepard did commit this horrible acts.
Though also it could be use as a tale of a tragic hero. Like how we have stories about heros who in the end fell to whatever reason. Anyways doesn't really proof anything but I don't think Liara would write about how Shepard turn out super evil. That's kind of a huge downer if the next cycle could understand (Though if I remember right Liara was working on that.)
2) Oh I know, but I was just saying about the part of the last game being told from a story point of view the whole time. Though with the "One more story" it pretty much saying "MOAR DLC!!!"
3) Yeah..nothing else needs to be said here xD
But I have my own little ideas of what they are planning on doing. Now in my opinion, the EMS only counts towards after you "wake" up from the Indoc if IT is true. If you have high EMS then the ships that Hackket sent to stop Harbinger help out and distract him enough so Shepard team can pick him up and regroup.
If you have low EMS then you are dreaming while Harbinger DOES shoot you with his laser. Which is why everything is destroy in the "Bad" red ending. No idea about the other two endings, but what the IT states what they are. Just means to control you and lure you to the reaper sides.
Though again, it just my opinion on the matter and why EMS is important. Which would go like this.
Low EMS - no ships come in to help, and you get fried. Med EMS - some ships come in, distract Harbinger but get destroy in the process and at the end game you lose a large chunk of the fleet. High EMS - Same as above but the ships take few losses and you don't lose as many ships as before during the end.
Edit: True, but look at it this way. They probably had some idea to Indoc shepard but when time/money came into view they couldn't work what they wanted. Which is why there such a huge problem now. It didn't go as smoothly as they hope and now they are paying for it. Which I hope Bioware does work with this ending as it would help them but not as much as they would like. Just another opinion of mine...
Well, I don't know if we need it, but you have to admit. It's a damn good theory. Plus, it's 100x better than the current ending.
What doesn't help is that apparently, indoctrination was originally intended for the ending but Bioware cut it out because of the mechanics. [This is what I understood from the text in the Final Hours.]
Knowing that just makes me want to say "wtf, Bioware?" Oh well, just gotta wait and see what DLC they come up with.
Moth_Monk: Instead of relying on "get outs" why can't the ending just be flat out retconned? For those that didn't like it. :<
Because it will still not have a "Ending". With the IT we can at least say that the ending was plan to be release later (Pay or free don't know yet) and it will be out within a few days or weeks.
If not, then most likely have to wait a few months for them to make the ending and finish it. Which by the way, have no idea how good or bad that will be. Unless of course they just slap it together and throw it out for the fans who keep asking to remake the ending.
I rather have a good, well design game ending then a rush crappy job if they decide to remake it (Which by the way, they said they were only adding on to it. Not changing) If they retconned the whole thing then what parts do they keep and which parts do they take out?
Cause with the new ending their will probably be MORE people piss off because it did not cater to their ending they wanted.
But really, the strongest evidence that I've seen that it's supposed to be a literal interpretation is actually this video:
I just cannot believe that Bioware - or any game company - could come up with a plotline that subtle and perfect that spans the course of many years put into 3 games. :P
There's that video again. It is one of the better pro-IT vids out there, but some parts of just made me go "ugh" at some of the "evidence". I even answered most of those all important questions at the end (in spoilers below). I don't necessarily think that BioWare couldn't have pulled it off, but I definitely think people are both putting too much faith in their abilities as well acting like everything up to before the ending sequence was a perfect, rock solid absence of bad writing. I don't really count "it has to be true because they couldn't have screwed up so terribly considering the rest of the game" a good argument.
Spoiler: Click to 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
:P As the chunk of post that you quoted from me suggests: I actually think that amazingly well made videos is the biggest proof that the IT theory is NOT correct.
Some of the questions they bring up are half-way valid, but they can all be explained with an equally half-way valid answer. I say "half-way" because the ending is so full of holes that it's almost impossible to say anything about it for certain. That said, though, again I think that we're meant to take the ending with a literal interpretation and not as an indoctrination hallucination.
Like I said in my first response to this topic: we kinda-sorta do need the IT. I disagree with it, but it is nothing but the product of a fanbase trying to make sense of the nonsensical. To be quite honest the first time I beat the game I really didn't even pay any mind to the fact that my ending squad had somehow magically teleported back to the Normandy. Truth be told I was really enjoying the ending sequence...right up until Space Timmy showed up. Buuuuuuuuut I'm guessing that's how pretty much everyone felt. :P
Moth_Monk: Instead of relying on "get outs" why can't the ending just be flat out retconned? For those that didn't like it. :<
Because it will still not have a "Ending". With the IT we can at least say that the ending was plan to be release later (Pay or free don't know yet) and it will be out within a few days or weeks.
If not, then most likely have to wait a few months for them to make the ending and finish it. Which by the way, have no idea how good or bad that will be. Unless of course they just slap it together and throw it out for the fans who keep asking to remake the ending.
I rather have a good, well design game ending then a rush crappy job if they decide to remake it (Which by the way, they said they were only adding on to it. Not changing) If they retconned the whole thing then what parts do they keep and which parts do they take out?
Cause with the new ending their will probably be MORE people piss off because it did not cater to their ending they wanted.
The game does already have an ending but not a very good one - apparently. There would be nothing wrong with just changing the ending as Valve did with Portal.
Moth_Monk: Instead of relying on "get outs" why can't the ending just be flat out retconned? For those that didn't like it. :<
Because it will still not have a "Ending". With the IT we can at least say that the ending was plan to be release later (Pay or free don't know yet) and it will be out within a few days or weeks.
If not, then most likely have to wait a few months for them to make the ending and finish it. Which by the way, have no idea how good or bad that will be. Unless of course they just slap it together and throw it out for the fans who keep asking to remake the ending.
I rather have a good, well design game ending then a rush crappy job if they decide to remake it (Which by the way, they said they were only adding on to it. Not changing) If they retconned the whole thing then what parts do they keep and which parts do they take out?
Cause with the new ending their will probably be MORE people piss off because it did not cater to their ending they wanted.
The game does already have an ending but not a very good one - apparently. There would be nothing wrong with just changing the ending as Valve did with Portal.
But the point is, if they change it. IT will STILL not HAVE a ENDING. There will still need question to be answer. If they just cut off the star kid part. What then? A few months of work to make the animation for that scene afterwards, trying to get the voice actors to come back and shoot more voices. And etc, etc.
If they don't then they will just do it slobby with title cards that tell us what happen afterwards. Which in my opinion is WORST! I didn't work my ass off in all three games to save the galaxy to see some words appear on the screen telling what happen. I want to see what happen, not get told.
But really, the strongest evidence that I've seen that it's supposed to be a literal interpretation is actually this video:
I just cannot believe that Bioware - or any game company - could come up with a plotline that subtle and perfect that spans the course of many years put into 3 games. :P
There's that video again. It is one of the better pro-IT vids out there, but some parts of just made me go "ugh" at some of the "evidence". I even answered most of those all important questions at the end (in spoilers below). I don't necessarily think that BioWare couldn't have pulled it off, but I definitely think people are both putting too much faith in their abilities as well acting like everything up to before the ending sequence was a perfect, rock solid absence of bad writing. I don't really count "it has to be true because they couldn't have screwed up so terribly considering the rest of the game" a good argument.
Spoiler: Click to 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
Glad to see someone else is doubting that video. There's some facts in there, but a lot of it is taking little things, and trying to pass them off as facts
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle said it best with either, "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." or "It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment"
Whichever one you want to use, the result is the same. A lot of the IT video is pointing out "facts" that suit their theory, when in reality you can explain a lot of it using different stuff. Like the boy thing, is it really that unreasonable to think that in a freaking war zone Anderson couldn't hear a small boy speaking? If they really wanted us to think Shepard was the only one to see him, I'm sure they would have put a "Hey Shepard who are you talking to? There's no one there"
RJ 17: The ending sequence would be a military hero's funeral with eulogies provided by the surviving squadmates from 1, 2, and 3 along with some of the more important side-characters. The speeches given would reflect the decisions you made. Once the funeral is over, cut to the text-box slides Dragon Age: Origin's style that explain what each race did in the years that follow (like how DA explained what your decision with the dwarves caused, what your decision with the dalish caused, etc). Roll credits. Pretty sure that ending would be nice and neat and satiate everyone's desire for closure on their decisions.
I'd still want at least the slim possibility of an ending where everyone lives, Shepard included, though I'd expect it to be the absolute hardest to get. You'd have to have a save file going all the way back to ME1, you'd have to make all the right decisions through all three games, you have to get every last war asset, and so on. And hey, maybe there should even be some luck involved: like, all that work means that you earn the right to have the game flip a coin behind the scenes to decide if you live or not.
But yeah, that's one of the many things I don't get about this--that Bioware has been here before, and that they should've known how to do it right. All they really had to do was show the writers the ending of the first Dragon Age and say, "Like this, but with spaceships."
PaganAxe: I voted neutral; but since then, I'm now against the indoctrination theory.
This here shoots some nice holes in the theory quite well.
This bit stuck out for me: "It Prevents the Game from Being Fixed: Instead of unifying the community around a battle cry of "Bring back Harbinger" we have people defending the God-Kid McBullShit segment."
Seriously, the Star Child encapsulates nearly everything that's wrong about the ending. Everybody hates this character. You'd think we would all be desperate to just plain get rid of him.
Yet Bioware still hasn't dismissed the theory even though it's the largest topic with over 1000 pages on BSN. That doesn't prove anything but it's kinda weird. Maybe they just don't want more angry fans if they officially dismiss the theory. Which is not a good idea. If the theory is wrong they should really just come clean and say it. If they don't they risk a big backlash from IT supporters when the actual DLC is revealed.
Adam Jensen: Yet Bioware still hasn't dismissed the theory even though it's the largest topic with over 1000 pages on BSN. That doesn't prove anything but it's kinda weird. Maybe they just don't want more angry fans if they officially dismiss the theory. Which is not a good idea. If the theory is wrong they should really just come clean and say it. If they don't they risk a big backlash from IT supporters when the actual DLC is revealed.
Well Bioware has released an announcement which says they're not changing the ending; just expanding on it with extra cut-scenes so I think that's pretty much IDT dashed.
I think this video is one of the best explanations I've seen for why the ME3 ending is terrible. (Yes, it's deliberately Plinkettish, but I'm fine with it, being a Plinkett fan myself. There's no cat rape in this, at least.)
Anyway, at about the 30:00 mark in the video, this guy starts talking about how Bioware could fix the ending. He doesn't really go into the indoctrination theory, other than to observe that it sorta-kinda feels like an Ass Pull. After reviewing some of the examples on that TV Tropes page, I think I get where he's coming from.
I've read about the IT myself, and on the one hand, yeah, I can see how it would work, but on the other hand: what would using it mean in practice? It'd mean that, after the first fifteen-minute sequence on the Citadel turns out to be a Reaper-induced fever dream, Bioware would have to add a second, "real" Citadel sequence.
Video Guy had a less complicated idea: remove the Star Child scene. Bioware shouldn't try to "clarify" it, or even justify it--that scene is where most of the problems lie, so they should just completely take it out.
That made me wonder: instead of making a new ending in which the game essentially spends its final moments repeating itself, what if Bioware did the original Citadel sequence right? For example, Shepard beams up to the Citadel, there's the final confrontation with the Illusive Man, Anderson's (perfect, IMHO) death scene happens, Hackett calls to say the Crucible's not firing--and then, as the fleet keeps the Reapers at bay, Shepard has to find a way to trigger it (while trying not to bleed to death). The final result depends on the war assets you found, as well as the decisions you made throughout the series. The Star Child scene never happens. And that's it. No indoctrination theory needed.
I think that'd be a much simpler solution, and I'm sure that the less work Bioware has to put into an alternate ending, the more likely we are to get one.
Thoughts?
EDIT: The guy made a video specifically about the indoctrination theory. He still doesn't care for it. This one's much shorter.
EDIT #2: PaganAxe found a post listing a few more problems with the IT.