Zachary Amaranth: When the core point is the one you're disagreeing with, there's a pretty big freaking issue there.
But good job trying to shift it to a simple issue of partial agreement.
The OP's original post in its entirety:
xXxJessicaxXx: Lately I have noticed that female gamers are being discouraged for all sorts of reasons.
Assassins Creed 3 said that a female protagonist wouldn't fit into the period of the game (yet a Native American would be acceptable and wouldn't rouse suspicion wherever he went?).
The Witcher of course has Geralt whose misogyny is accepted because of the books. Meanwhile if developers made a Conan game would he be portrayed as a racist?
Kingdoms of Amalur treats the female character like she is a man (constant flirts from female characters) to the extent where she is forced to marry a women if she wants to complete a quest line, there is no option to just say 'No' and complete the quest that way.
Risen 2 has dismissed a playable female out of hand even though their protagonist is 'The nameless hero' and plenty of women were involved in piracy.
I don't mean to go into tin foil hat territory here but as someone who has been gaming for a very long time it almost feels like we are going backwards with gender acceptance in games (outside of Bioware.) and the mainstay excuse of devs seems to be that mistreatment of women is part of their universe or time period and so must be accepted out of hand. These are often in games where there are giant bug monsters or other fantastic occurrences.
Sometimes I wonder whether we will ever be accepted as part of gaming or the very excuse of 'men are our main demographic' is going to discourage women from playing games and therefore not allow the demographic to balance out.
I know that I'm in the minority here and I'm probably going to get shouted down pretty badly but please think about what it's like to grow up loving a past-time that no one seems to want you to be involved in.
The only mention of a deliberate conspiracy is in the title; the OP's analysis itself never mentions intent, just analyses the problem.
Now, answer me this: why are you so keen to find something to pull me up on? You clearly aren't interested in addressing any of my points, just trying to find something where you can imagine you've tripped me up.
Address the points or go away. I'm not interested in playing verbal badminton with someone who just wants to troll me.
The short answer is no, no they are not. Now get back in the kitchen!
The long answer is... Why isn't the main character in Amelie a guy?! OMG SEXIST MUCH?
Why isn't the main character in Sixteen Candles a guy?! OMG SEXIST MUCH?
Why isn't the main character in Girl Interrupted a guy?! OMG SEXIST MUCH?
Maybe it's because they're telling a specific story...
Though I'll ignore logic and just presume if it's only a guy main character then it must be sexism.
Wouldn't your post have worked better if your examples were from gaming instead of film? And the "kitchen" line sort of ruins the effect of the rest of the sarcasm by cheapening it too much.
Personally, I disagree with the OP that companies are "deliberately" discouraging women gamers, though she has a more recent post in which she also questions her use of that word. I certainly don't agree with her that the Witcher and Risen franchises are sexist; the women who play prominent roles in those games are tough and independent without being one-dimensional. No, they're not the leads, but there are story reasons for that, and I don't think every instance of (possibly) short-sighted development is the same thing as deliberate sexism.
Nevertheless, I agree that conditions in the industry and its various fan communities still tend to favor the male demographic, at least in so-called "core" game development. I wouldn't say that it's worse than before, though; I don't recall arcades as havens of female empowerment in the 1980s even though there were definitely women gamers who could trounce any challenger.
teh_gunslinger: Zoë Castillo, April Ryan, Faith Connors, Chell, the lady from Fahrenheit, Jade from BG&E, Zoe from L4D, Cate Archer, Kate Walker from Syberia and probably more
Chell is not a character. She's a cipher.
I'd argue the same is basically true of Zoe from L4D as well, although I suppose she gets the occasional snippet of dialogue to at least give the illusion of a hastily sketched personality.
The short answer is no, no they are not. Now get back in the kitchen!
The long answer is... Why isn't the main character in Amelie a guy?! OMG SEXIST MUCH?
Why isn't the main character in Sixteen Candles a guy?! OMG SEXIST MUCH?
Why isn't the main character in Girl Interrupted a guy?! OMG SEXIST MUCH?
Maybe it's because they're telling a specific story...
Though I'll ignore logic and just presume if it's only a guy main character then it must be sexism.
Way to miss the entire point.
Its not about making all characters female. Its about maybe not all females being shitty one dimensional tit-machines.
meh, its easier to make a grey two dimension female character SOMEWHAT useful towards your game by adding big breasts to them. in the case of a grey two dimensional male character, they just stay grey (adding breasts doesnt help).
now, while some series are notorious for going extreme (ninja gaiden), honestly i would like to see more strong female characters with one exception.
im tired of the industry trying to give a strong female character by making a ultra feminist. its annoying, with jokes straight out of the V monologue to the point where i can predict all of her lines. it kinda reminds me of Sam Carter from stargate SG-1 tv series. when it first started, she was the "just because my reproductive organs on the inside yadda yadda yadda", then she became this smart wonderful character later on. she went from "im on this show because im a female" to "im on this show because im awesome, deal with it"
Alex vance, from the halflife series, is one of my favorite characters, let alone female character. quite honestly, femshep seems to fit the game better than maleshep in the mass effect series, especially for the renegade path (i dont know why). morrigan from dragon age one was great, she can break apart a man's soul with just a few words (not even magical ones!).
there has definitely been significant improvement in regards to this field. i would personally like to see more memorable female characters full of personality. course that doesnt mean i want my eye candy COMPLETELY removed, i am a guy after all.
although, now that i think about it.....if i reflect on all of my favorite VILLAINS, women are not on that list.
teh_gunslinger: Zoë Castillo, April Ryan, Faith Connors, Chell, the lady from Fahrenheit, Jade from BG&E, Zoe from L4D, Cate Archer, Kate Walker from Syberia and probably more
Chell is not a character. She's a cipher.
I'd argue the same is basically true of Zoe from L4D as well, although I suppose she gets the occasional snippet of dialogue to at least give the illusion of a hastily sketched personality.
the funny thing is that chell is basically the female version of gordan freeman, who was labeled as the best hero of all time on some gaming site poll.
i personally liked all of the characters from left 4 dead 1. now, rochelle from l4d2 on the other hand was extremely bland.
Ryotknife: the funny thing is that chell is basically the female version of gordan freeman, who was labeled as the best hero of all time.
i personally liked all of the characters from left 4 dead 1. now, rochelle from l4d2 on the other hand was extremely bland.
Freeman is a fucking cipher too. I have no idea who celebrated him as an intriguing character, but they were very wrong to do so.
I don't have an issue with Chell, or Freeman, or using ciphers as heroes in games, but they shouldn't show up on any list of "great characters", because they're not really "characters" at all. They're avatars.
What women want a hero to look likePHA+PGltZyBzcmM9Imh0dHA6Ly9mYzAwLmRldmlhbnRhcnQubmV0L2ZzNzEvZi8yMDExLzEwMS8xLzMvZHJhZ29uX2FnZV8yX2ZlbWFsZV9oYXdrZV9ieV9uYXVnaHR5Ym95ODMtZDNkcWl2ZS5qcGciIGFsdD0iaW1hZ2UiLz48L3A+
I personally find that to be better eye-candy then Ivy. That said, while story and character aren't that important to Soul Calibur, I find Ivy's exaggerated appearance actually makes her character more interesting, simply because they don't mesh as well as you might think. She'd come off as pretty bland if she looked and dressed more normal.
the funny thing is that chell is basically the female version of gordan freeman, who was labeled as the best hero of all time on some gaming site poll.
i personally liked all of the characters from left 4 dead 1. now, rochelle from l4d2 on the other hand was extremely bland.
Freeman is a fucking cipher too. I have no idea who celebrated him as an intriguing character, but they were very wrong to do so.
I don't have an issue with Chell, or Freeman, or using ciphers as heroes in games, but they shouldn't show up on any list of "great characters", because they're not really "characters" at all. They're avatars.
Indeed, it's more the imagination of the people who create these characters, each person has their own image of what these characters are like whether they are role-playing as them or not. Considering that these are only imaginations, it is silly that they are allowed on "best characters list."
If they wanted to argue visual artistic design, they'd have something though.
Bringing up this, it's funny that I now realize that my image of Chell's personality is more interesting than say Alyx's depicted personality.
infinity_turtles: She'd come off as pretty bland if she looked and dressed more normal.
Well she had a nice pseudo-china dress as an alternate costume in SC2 which looked alright.
I still just think the developers are mostly male so they just do stuff that they like. If most developers were female I dont doubt theyd cater to female tastes.
Assassins Creed 3 said that a female protagonist wouldn't fit into the period of the game (yet a Native American would be acceptable and wouldn't rouse suspicion wherever he went?).
No, it makes complete sense. Women weren't allowed to do jack shit back then, Indians still could. Anyhow, to answer your question, no I don't think they are trying to discourage women to game, instead I think they are trying to build their games for a male audience. The difference is slight, but its still their.
If the game(s) can have a female Templar then by what logic can't they have a female assassin? I don't get it.
xXxJessicaxXx: Lately I have noticed that female gamers are being discouraged for all sorts of reasons.
Assassins Creed 3 said that a female protagonist wouldn't fit into the period of the game (yet a Native American would be acceptable and wouldn't rouse suspicion wherever he went?).
The Witcher of course has Geralt whose misogyny is accepted because of the books. Meanwhile if developers made a Conan game would he be portrayed as a racist?
Kingdoms of Amalur treats the female character like she is a man (constant flirts from female characters) to the extent where she is forced to marry a women if she wants to complete a quest line, there is no option to just say 'No' and complete the quest that way.
Risen 2 has dismissed a playable female out of hand even though their protagonist is 'The nameless hero' and plenty of women were involved in piracy.
I don't mean to go into tin foil hat territory here but as someone who has been gaming for a very long time it almost feels like we are going backwards with gender acceptance in games (outside of Bioware.) and the mainstay excuse of devs seems to be that mistreatment of women is part of their universe or time period and so must be accepted out of hand. These are often in games where there are giant bug monsters or other fantastic occurrences.
Sometimes I wonder whether we will ever be accepted as part of gaming or the very excuse of 'men are our main demographic' is going to discourage women from playing games and therefore not allow the demographic to balance out.
I know that I'm in the minority here and I'm probably going to get shouted down pretty badly but please think about what it's like to grow up loving a past-time that no one seems to want you to be involved in.
Interesting theory I guess, I suppose you could take it that way but I'm not too sure. There are plenty of games today where you can indeed play as a women with little to no difference from being a male. For instance the Elder Scrolls series is one such game where gender contributes to minor changes and doesn't impact the story one bit, this is however where we see females as accepted characters because it's our own choice and freedom to do so. Certain RPGs just allow the player freedoms to choose, however I feel like you're talking about less open ended RPGs like (as you pointed out) The Witcher, where you play a male and a particularly horny one at that.
I feel as a male gamer that we're not doing enough to support female leading ladies yet I also feel like we shouldn't do much more either. I'm not going to sugar coat my opinion but I feel like you'll only be sold out more and more and end up being objectified to make a quick buck. "This game promotes a strong female lead buy me because I'm a woman and I kick ass", it would be a sad turn of events where we go from pseudo sexualized heroes like Lara Croft to that belt wearing bandit from X-blades (google the cover art). If we start making a huge deal out of promoting women in games, I feel like we could do more harm than good. I'm not really quite sure what to make of the predicament, I support the idea as I don't mind playing a female character at all but the road it could travel could be 10x worse than one we're on now. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.
I feel as a male gamer that we're not doing enough to support female leading ladies yet I also feel like we shouldn't do much more either. I'm not going to sugar coat my opinion but I feel like you'll only be sold out more and more and end up being objectified to make a quick buck. "This game promotes a strong female lead buy me because I'm a woman and I kick ass", it would be a sad turn of events where we go from pseudo sexualized heroes like Lara Croft to that belt wearing bandit from X-blades (google the cover art). If we start making a huge deal out of promoting women in games, I feel like we could do more harm than good. I'm not really quite sure what to make of the predicament, I support the idea as I don't mind playing a female character at all but the road it could travel could be 10x worse than one we're on now. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.
This is a faulty line of reasoning. Under-representation of female characters is one form of bad design, and objectification of female characters is another form of bad design. Opposing one doesn't mean we oppose the other, and we are 100% free to oppose both.
Kahunaburger: This is a faulty line of reasoning. Under-representation of female characters is one form of bad design, and objectification of female characters is another form of bad design. Opposing one doesn't mean we oppose the other, and we are 100% free to oppose both.
You're right, it is bad design on both account but this is just purely speculation and opinion on my part. I do feel like if there was to be a sudden influx of main female characters then after a short period it would become the done thing to sell games with a female lead "because she's female". I do partly put that down to how poor I believe character design is in this current generation of games, in RPGs where players don't get the say over their character like The Witcher, Uncharted I don't think we've had a really stand out leading character for a while.
I'd love to see a female character become the next leading lady, much like how Lara Croft came about at the right time not just in the gaming world but socially with the popularity of female pop groups like The Spice Girls came "girl power". Yes she was a polygon set of tits but to the women, she represented a step forward in acceptance in games. Lara Croft kicked ass, guys wanted to sleep with her and girls wanted to be tough, strong and have adventures like her. So I think anyway.
"Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?" Short answer, yes.
Woman don't buy as many video games - to spend vast amounts of money to convince a demographic that isn't even listening to invest in something they don't have an interest in is counter productive. The Oxygen/Lifetime Networks could throw a billion dollars at the problem of not reaching male viewers but it would be wasted.
This isn't to say that plenty of men don't enjoy the Oxygen/Lifetime networks or that plenty of woman don't enjoy video games, it's just a money driven business which isn't concerned with being inclusive.
I think most of the things you said there have to be put in context. Take the witcher 2, the medieval times weren't the best for women (actually up until the second half of the 20th century, it was a bad 4000 years for women), it's like LA Noire, it's ok to have that, it makes more sense than the contrary, but still, they give us strong female characters like Ves or Triss.
In alamur, well, sloppy design, they should've added a man for that one unless the character has to be gay, still, needed a man, I can't defend that.
Oh, also, the assassin's creed 3 example is a bad one, It wouldn't make sense to have a woman! Put it in context. A woman who is british, posh and all, why would she fight? a woman who is indian? Why, again, why would she fight? And a woman who is british/indian? Who trained her? Why? I don't know, it would be forced.
[...]we are going backwards with gender acceptance in games (outside of Bioware.)[...]
You know this comment, it hit me. You know how sexist bioware are? Not only a woman thing more like a gay thing. In both mass effect 1 and 2 you could be lesbian but not gay... I don't really think we should forget that and just give it to bioware. Besides, their whole "look at miranda's ass" in both the second and third installment is really mysoginist don't you think?
Of course where I'm going is a) The growing numbers disprove your theory that women will go away, %40 percent (and rising) of gamers are women b)Don't you use the mainstream thing, you need to play more indie games to realize they do it too. c) I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're giving bad examples because you might be a bit biased with other companies to include them here d) Games are not only played majoritarily my men (%60 gamers are men)but I think the growing question follows a more interesting path which is, soon, women will be %50 of gamers, this only means the whole argument will have to go away. What then? The devs will have to change, we will have more games with interesting cool female characters like Mirror's edge. Or not.
easternflame: You know this comment, it hit me. You know how sexist bioware are?
Not very? Bioware are actually really good about equal representation of competent men and women. You're confusing the rampant objectification and pandering for sexism. The same is also true of The Witcher, another series often wrongly identified as "sexist" when there are other, more accurate labels for what's going on there. "Sexism" isn't a blanket term you're meant to throw over every and any gender related topic. It means a specific thing.
easternflame: You know this comment, it hit me. You know how sexist bioware are?
Not very? Bioware are actually really good about equal representation of competent men and women. You're confusing the rampant objectification and pandering for sexism. The same is also true of The Witcher, another series often wrongly identified as "sexist" when there are other, more accurate labels for what's going on there. "Sexism" isn't a blanket term you're meant to throw over every and any gender related topic. It means a specific thing.
Yes and no. I think we can both agree that sexuality is an important factor in gender representation, if you can be lesbian but not gay, there is something wrong.
The witcher, well, that's exactly what I'm saying but thank you.
easternflame: Yes and no. I think we can both agree that sexuality is an important factor in gender representation, if you can be lesbian but not gay, there is something wrong.
The witcher, well, that's exactly what I'm saying but thank you.
Well again though, that's not sexist. That might be considered poor proportional representation, but it's not really indicative of a negative attitude towards homosexuals, or lesbians, or gays.
About the worst thing Bioware can be accused of is excessive fan servicing and pandering when it comes to sexuality. They are, however, one of the few developers who will actually pander to women (Jacob, Vega) as nakedly as they do to men (Miranda, Allers). I suspect that's a huge contributor to their popularity with the fairer sex.
easternflame: Yes and no. I think we can both agree that sexuality is an important factor in gender representation, if you can be lesbian but not gay, there is something wrong.
The witcher, well, that's exactly what I'm saying but thank you.
Well again though, that's not sexist. That might be considered poor proportional representation, but it's not really indicative of a negative attitude towards homosexuals, or lesbians, or gays.
About the worst thing Bioware can be accused of is excessive fan servicing and pandering when it comes to sexuality. They are, however, one of the few developers who will actually pander to women (Jacob, Vega) as nakedly as they do to men (Miranda, Allers). I suspect that's a huge contributor to their popularity with the fairer sex.
I can agree on that, they do accept gender equality I was commenting on the inequality of their gay/lesbian relationships.
easternflame: I mean in the fact that it took bioware 2 games to have gay relationships but lesbian was an option.
That would be pandering again, but this time to straight males, as opposed to pandering to lesbians. It would really only be "sexist" if they put a lesbian in the game and she was a straight up super hero, and the equivalent gay male was a retard.
The Witcher of course has Geralt whose misogyny is accepted because of the books. Meanwhile if developers made a Conan game would he be portrayed as a racist?
Hold the phone, I've read every yarn Robert Howard ever typed. How is Conan a racist?
easternflame: I mean in the fact that it took bioware 2 games to have gay relationships but lesbian was an option.
That would be pandering again, but this time to straight males, as opposed to pandering to lesbians. It would really only be "sexist" if they put a lesbian in the game and she was a straight up super hero, and the equivalent gay male was a retard.
Yeah I guess. Pandering in general is pretty juvenile and annoying, and shows a certain level of disrespect for the intelligence of your audience. As they're one of the ONLY developers even bothering to put homosexuals in their games at all, though, I have trouble taking them too much to task for it.
xXxJessicaxXx: Assassins Creed 3 said that a female protagonist wouldn't fit into the period of the game (yet a Native American would be acceptable and wouldn't rouse suspicion wherever he went?).
To be honest? A Native American can generally blend into a group of men a lot more easily than a woman can. Most of them (especially if they have mixed European blood) can pass for white pretty handily. For an existing example, take a look at the protagonist of 'Prey'. Hardly looks like the Redskins mascot.
xXxJessicaxXx: The Witcher of course has Geralt whose misogyny is accepted because of the books. Meanwhile if developers made a Conan game would he be portrayed as a racist?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that because of a deliberate character flaw?
xXxJessicaxXx: Kingdoms of Amalur treats the female character like she is a man (constant flirts from female characters) to the extent where she is forced to marry a women if she wants to complete a quest line, there is no option to just say 'No' and complete the quest that way.
I think that was clumsy design more than anything else. Amalur felt like a rather hastily built game to me, for whatever reason.
xXxJessicaxXx: Risen 2 has dismissed a playable female out of hand even though their protagonist is 'The nameless hero' and plenty of women were involved in piracy.
Erm...I think 'plenty' exaggerates the numbers a fair bit. Look through lists of female pirates, and it's pretty sparse to begin with, and that's before you count up how many of them did so while disguised as men.
xXxJessicaxXx: I don't mean to go into tin foil hat territory here but as someone who has been gaming for a very long time it almost feels like we are going backwards with gender acceptance in games (outside of Bioware.) and the mainstay excuse of devs seems to be that mistreatment of women is part of their universe or time period and so must be accepted out of hand. These are often in games where there are giant bug monsters or other fantastic occurrences.
Sometimes I wonder whether we will ever be accepted as part of gaming or the very excuse of 'men are our main demographic' is going to discourage women from playing games and therefore not allow the demographic to balance out.
I know that I'm in the minority here and I'm probably going to get shouted down pretty badly but please think about what it's like to grow up loving a past-time that no one seems to want you to be involved in.
I see where you're coming from, but consider that most of the stuff you listed had pretty valid reasons for its choice of protagonists. Games have to balance acceptable breaks from realism with a believable setting, and frankly, era plays a big part of it. Call of Duty 2 didn't have women mixed in with the D-Day landings, because it was shooting for immersion. From a purely objective standpoint, there are a lot of situations where you don't expect to find women.
But don't forget: there's plenty of reasonably-recent examples that might slip under the radar, but are pretty damn good efforts by the dev team. The Saints Row series after the first had multiple female voices to pick from, all of whom got just as much attention as the male variants. For a much more subtle example, the Halo games let players pick the gender of their Spartan. It changes the voice, and there's no physical difference, but that's the great thing: it actually treats women in the military as soldiers. They don't get specially-molded breasplates or inexplicably tight jumpsuits while the guys get a tank's worth of armor. It's astonishingly simple, but still nice when you think about it.
onegirlgaming: Maybe it's more difficult for male devs & writers to come up with convincing female viewpoints / actions / story arcs. I'm fairly sure I'd struggle to put something together based on what men want because I'd just aim for the stereotype that is tits and arse. I don't mean that in a belittling sense at all by the way, just that I don't think the weighting towards male protagonists is a considered slight against us ladies.
This is really what I was thinking as I read this thread.
I'm not sure if many people on this forum play D&D, or watch it as entertainment (it sounds weird I know, but for me it's just as good as a comedic/serious television program), but if you ever do and come across a guy trying to role play a woman (and being serious about it) you'll probably notice that it is hilariously bad.
I really can't blame him. If I want to pretend to be, or write up, a male character I have all sorts of experience and heroes to draw from. I've been a guy my whole life, that's quite a bit of info right there on how to write one.
Women, however, are strange and mysterious beasts to a lot of guys. I've never been a woman before, so I have no idea how to act like one. I've lived and worked with plenty of them, but for the most part the only outward difference I can see between them and males are odd desires and preferences that I don't understand in any meaningful way, or the display of emotions that guys typically are expected not to show.
So already you can see the probably see a problem here. With that knowledge at best I'm going to write an incredibly bland character that's essentially a guy that likes shoes, and at worst I'm going to write a character that acts like Barbie.
I think these issues are only going to decrease when people capable of thoroughly understanding women, i.e other women or particularly gifted men, enter the industry and start taking over from the people who have honestly just been guessing up until now.
Way to miss the entire point.
Its not about making all characters female. Its about maybe not all females being shitty one dimensional tit-machines.