Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 . . . 17 NEXT
 

ForgottenPr0digy:
I'm surprise not many women find Baird from gears of war attractive? He's not as bulky as Mascus and he's not married like Dom and he doesn't talk about "one night stands" with women like Cole Train.

But whatever.........

Also Gears, at least 3 has some good female characters, hell I play as Sam in the multi as she was one of my favorite characters.

I personally think this is a simple matter of Game Developers living in the biggest bubble in history. That, or, developing a game that has a protagonist that can be customized is very hard to do. I can easily take the title of this thread and supplant women with "Blacks", "Latinos", "Asians", "Gays", "Physically Challenged People".

It particularly galls me when I see the developers in their interviews saying "We wanted to create a character that gamers can relate to". It's not hard to feel that the developers are looking into the mirror when they are trying to figure out what the gamer audience can relate to.

I also think it's telling that a male gamer will pick a female character to play in a customizable game because of various options. He likes looking at women more, change of pace, what have you. The only time I ever heard of one of my female gamer friends deliberately choosing a male character has always been so they wouldn't get sexually harassed while gaming.

However, and I'm assured the denizens of the Escapist are among the exceptions to this, but I never have met someone who picked a different race as a customizable protagonist. This is barring being an alien species. From what I've seen, the majority of people who play games might be flexible with gender, but if they are picking human they are sticking to their race. I feel this is common enough that developers should understand that one gender/one race protagonist are definitely not characters that we all can relate to.

Zhukov:

While we're on the subject, I've never understood why female protagonists are so important to female players. As a guy I have no problems playing those relatively rare games with female leads. Hell, sometimes I play as a female in games that allow you to choose. Or does it go a bit deeper than merely the protagonist's gender...?

As a guy, but not a white guy, after a while you just want to be represented. It's nothing more than that. Sometimes, you want to just feel like you can actually be the protagonist that you're controlling, and it's hard to believe that when he or she looks nothing like you.

omega 616:
Or it would turn out as this bland gender neutral game 'cos they were trying oh so hard to keep everybody happy and not make waves.

No it wouldn't. It would turn into Final Fantasy X-2. The class mechanic for that game is essentially changing outfits, unlocking more outfits and upgrading the abilities in that outfit. Then you have scenes where the three girls are doing what stereotypical teenage girls do. That side of the game is Squeenix's way of catering to women, i'm not saying it's the ideal way and i'm not saying I approve of it, but it's how they tried to do it.

BUT THEN it takes a U turn and you get the scenes such as the massage scenes as well as the Gagazet hot spring scene and the fact that most of the outfits (including Rikku's default outfit) lack a lot of clothing.

ObsidianJones:
As a guy, but not a white guy, after a while you just want to be represented. It's nothing more than that. Sometimes, you want to just feel like you can actually be the protagonist that you're controlling, and it's hard to believe that when he or she looks nothing like you.

I gotta say, I've never, ever felt the need to see echoes of myself in my character. I don't think I've ever made a protagonist who was a lanky white guy with bed head and achey joints. He'd be a shit protagonist. I almost always roll women when they're available. Not for the oh-so-trite "I like dat virtual ass" reason, either, I just feel more comfortable with them.

I can totally see why someone would want the ability to see themselves in their character though. I'm just rambling.

DeltaEdge:
I think people would be okay if there were as many weak sexualized male characters as there were weak sexualized female characters.

So male readers and filmgoers responded positively to Edward and Jacob?

BloatedGuppy:

ObsidianJones:
As a guy, but not a white guy, after a while you just want to be represented. It's nothing more than that. Sometimes, you want to just feel like you can actually be the protagonist that you're controlling, and it's hard to believe that when he or she looks nothing like you.

I gotta say, I've never, ever felt the need to see echoes of myself in my character. I don't think I've ever made a protagonist who was a lanky white guy with bed head and achey joints. He'd be a shit protagonist. I almost always roll women when they're available. Not for the oh-so-trite "I like dat virtual ass" reason, either, I just feel more comfortable with them.

I can totally see why someone would want the ability to see themselves in their character though. I'm just rambling.

But the virtual ass is awesome. I have fond memories of ME1 FemShep in light armor jogging around Noveria.

MMMMMMM.... DAT ASS.

Oh... ummmm.... somewhat on-topic with what you guys are saying: I had this funny encounter with my step dad (who, lets face it his generation is a bunch of racists) walked in on a game of LFD2. Me and my sister were playing the two white guys (can't remember their names) but since it's an FPS and we were looking at the two black characters with us he assumed we were playing them and asked, "Why are you playing black characters?"

I lol'd.

I played a black female Sith in Kotor once just to throw him off.

kouriichi:
Not to be sexiest or anything about it, but "EXPLOSIONS, GUNS, DEATH, MASSIVE DESTRUCTION!" are things most of the male population are into.

It's mental junk food though. Why can't we get more stuff that's a bit more substantial? Escapism is all well and good, but if that's all you consume your brain gets weak.

JohnDoey:
I can't really sympathize with woman going on about lack of gender diversity ,when I barely see any black people in games.

Also there are decent female main chars in games, all we blacks have is Cj.

Isn't it kind of cheap to say you can't take someone else's problem seriously because you have one of your own, even if the two problems are related?

JohnDoey:
You know that wasn't intentional right, just Bioware being to lazy to alter any dialogue.

There's a chip on your shoulder there. You might want to brush that off.

Hixy:
I dont see why this is such a big deal with people lately, seems some wont rest until everything in the world is politicaly correct,

Another dude comically misses the point and brings up political correctness. Everyone take a shot.

krazykidd:
If gender of the main protagonist is stopping you from playing a game . You are doing it wrong . I guess authors who write books with a male protagonist hate women also . Oh not to mention movies with guys as the protagonist , they hate women also .

I mean really ... Why do people look for things to nitpick . I actually find you're claims rather sexist against men .

And another one. Take another shot.

Combine Rustler:
The female audience is, generally, much smaller than the male one. They also tend to like different things. So developers cater to the larger audience for MAXIMUM PROFIT.
It's all old beliefs and money.

Not quite. Women are actually a significant part of the market. But gaming is influenced by the "conventional wisdom" of the entertainment industry which is looking at the numbers and taking away all the wrong lessons.

Cursedwolf:

DrVornoff:

fookolt:
Who is Zeel? And what's wrong with being a feminist? I am very confused!

Zeel is he whom we do not speak of. And being a feminist isn't a bad thing, but people who don't know what feminism is come up with all sorts of cockamamie reasons to demonize the movement.

Shadow Master:
Why would anyone who considers George Clooney attractive in any way play fantasy games in the first place...?

That you felt the need to ask that question rather illustrates the root problem with your arguments.

Before you say that being a Feminist is not a bad thing, perhaps you should look at the evidence that says,

Being a Feminist, -is- a bad thing.

and this isn't demonization, this is just plain and simple facts about what the Feminist Movement is about, and the people who follow them.

http://www.avoiceformen.com

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. That site is nothing but a bunch of whining, weak, hollow, ignorant, incompetent chumps who blame women for their own self-inflicted pain.

Unlike you, I have actually read feminist literature. I have also read literature on male psychology and culture. And that's why I can say comfortably that the guys on that site are the problem, not women. Now fuck off until you can present something that doesn't waste my time.

Cursedwolf:
But hey. that's your opinion. i respect that.

No you don't. Kid, I am a magician. A professional liar. Do not bullshit a bullshitter.

ForgottenPr0digy:
I'm surprise not many women find Baird from gears of war attractive? He's not as bulky as Mascus and he's not married like Dom and he doesn't talk about "one night stands" with women like Cole Train.

But whatever.........

Okay, let's go over this. He's not built like a steroidal nightmare, he's not taken, and he's not a vocal horndog. Ladies? This sound like enough to qualify him as taken?

Seriously, why are you qualifying someone as attractive by what they aren't?

DeltaEdge:
I think people would be okay if there were as many weak sexualized male characters as there were weak sexualized female characters.

How about no?

Kahunaburger:

DeltaEdge:
I think people would be okay if there were as many weak sexualized male characters as there were weak sexualized female characters.

So male readers and filmgoers responded positively to Edward and Jacob?

No, but that's because it's still not something that happens that often (to my knowledge). I think that if it became commonplace, then people wouldn't really care. (Unless they were actively trying to end the sexualization of both genders entirely)
Edit And I don't think males were speaking out against them for being a sexist false representation of men. They probably just thought they were "gay".

DrVornoff:
Quotes!

The hell man. You quoted everyone in this thread but me. I feel so left out.

image

DeltaEdge:

Kahunaburger:

DeltaEdge:
I think people would be okay if there were as many weak sexualized male characters as there were weak sexualized female characters.

So male readers and filmgoers responded positively to Edward and Jacob?

No, but that's because it's still not something that happens that often (to my knowledge). I think that if it became commonplace, then people wouldn't really care. (Unless they were actively trying to end the sexualization of both genders entirely)

Objectification of women in media is commonplace. Do you think all or even most women don't care about objectification?

"Sexual harassment is an integral part of the fighting game community"

Short answer: Yes. Yes, they are.

If they aren't, they're doing a spectacularly poor job of convincing me otherwise.

I'm sorry, but did I miss something? When has Geralt ever treated women badly?

Kahunaburger:

DeltaEdge:
I think people would be okay if there were as many weak sexualized male characters as there were weak sexualized female characters.

So male readers and filmgoers responded positively to Edward and Jacob?

Had they not have been a vampire and werewolf and hyped beyond recognition, I bet people wouldn't have cared all that much about yet another standard dumpy romance novel.

Substitute Troll:
I'm sorry, but did I miss something? When has Geralt ever treated women badly?

In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Kahunaburger:

DeltaEdge:

Kahunaburger:

So male readers and filmgoers responded positively to Edward and Jacob?

No, but that's because it's still not something that happens that often (to my knowledge). I think that if it became commonplace, then people wouldn't really care. (Unless they were actively trying to end the sexualization of both genders entirely)

Objectification of women in media is commonplace. Do you think all or even most women don't care about objectification?

I think they do, but equality is also a big issue. If both sexes were portrayed in an overly sexist manor, then people might not be as upset as if it were just a single sex being singled out. But if things became equal, then I guess people probably would try to straighten out the issue of sexism in genders until that problem is fixed. I guess what I'm saying is, people will probably be more concerned about things being gender equal first, and then once things are equal, tackle issue and eliminate it on both sides. To give an example of why I think this, I was on youtube and found a video for a shooter game where someone had a gun and was shooting students in the school. The person was searching specifically for african american people, and shooting only them. In the comments, people weren't in an uproar about how defenseless people were being shot in a school, they were upset mainly about the fact that only the African American people were being shot. If the person shot people equally, then people would probably move onto the fact that someone is in a school campus shooting unarmed people.

I think it's part of gamer developer/marketer culture - they both overlap right in the area of crotch motivation. Game developers are pretty much enslaved, so they don't get the essential social / life interactions, including romantic development, that is essential to us humans. While marketing has a very high population of brains-between-their-legs BS artists (let's face it, it's the perfect vocation for that type, so it's no surprise they gravitate to it) who can actually prove that pushing the sex button results in higher sales of pretty much anything.

Put the two together regarding character design and even in franchises where appearance is already preset and the audiences' expectations are well defined, you get Hulk Batman and Sleazy Quinn. Given a blank canvas, you're going to get ridiculousness out of that combination every time.

I do recall that the creators of Fallen Earth once fought that stereotype by having plain-featured women. From what I saw, the face generation devolved that into mild ugliness, and after fans made enough mention of it, they tweaked it so the women looked considerably "cuter". Now that I think about it, I don't recall any other MMO where your character looked pretty much ordinary, and it didn't bother me a bit as far as identifying with my char. In fact, it was kind of all right to see a bunch of ordinary-looking characters (for a post-apocalyptic wasteland setting, that is) running around.

lacktheknack:

Kahunaburger:

DeltaEdge:
I think people would be okay if there were as many weak sexualized male characters as there were weak sexualized female characters.

So male readers and filmgoers responded positively to Edward and Jacob?

Had they not have been a vampire and werewolf and hyped beyond recognition, I bet people wouldn't have cared all that much about yet another standard dumpy romance novel.

I think this is the key issue.

I've noticed that when male characters are actually written as sexual objects (as opposed to male power fantasies with their shirts off) and a male audience notices, suddenly a lot of dudes are annoyed and/or skeeved out by the characters. For some reason they have a hard time connecting the dots.

Soxafloppin:
Nope, women are potential customers too, so discouraging them would be counter productive.

See: EA, Ubisoft, Sony.

lacktheknack:
In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Ahahahaha really? Really? Did they change that for the Enhanced Edition, or did I just miss it?

Because that's pretty funny.

Terrible, of course. So terrible it's hilarious.

BloatedGuppy:

lacktheknack:
In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Ahahahaha really? Really? Did they change that for the Enhanced Edition, or did I just miss it?

Because that's pretty funny.

Terrible, of course. So terrible it's hilarious.

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

lacktheknack:

Substitute Troll:
I'm sorry, but did I miss something? When has Geralt ever treated women badly?

In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Especially the girl.

Ba-dum-bump!

BloatedGuppy:

DrVornoff:
Quotes!

The hell man. You quoted everyone in this thread but me. I feel so left out.

image

If it's any consolation, it's harder for me to make fun of smart people, so I don't quote them as often. So between being quoted now and the knowledge that you are one of the smarter people here, take this opportunity to bask in your intellectual superiority. Doing so is one of my favorite pastimes, personally.

DeltaEdge:
If both sexes were portrayed in an overly sexist manor, then people might not be as upset as if it were just a single sex being singled out.

So it would still suck, but it would suck better?

lacktheknack:

BloatedGuppy:

lacktheknack:
In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Ahahahaha really? Really? Did they change that for the Enhanced Edition, or did I just miss it?

Because that's pretty funny.

Terrible, of course. So terrible it's hilarious.

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

I think the night they were referring to was the night they spent fighting while he waited for her curse to time out. The intro is basically from a short story, and in that story sex is definitely not part of the deal.

DrVornoff:

BloatedGuppy:

DrVornoff:
Quotes!

The hell man. You quoted everyone in this thread but me. I feel so left out.

image

If it's any consolation, it's harder for me to make fun of smart people, so I don't quote them as often. So between being quoted now and the knowledge that you are one of the smarter people here, take this opportunity to bask in your intellectual superiority. Doing so is one of my favorite pastimes, personally.

I assume that implies I am intelligent as well?

Awesome.

/highfives Guppy.

DeltaEdge:

Kahunaburger:

DeltaEdge:

No, but that's because it's still not something that happens that often (to my knowledge). I think that if it became commonplace, then people wouldn't really care. (Unless they were actively trying to end the sexualization of both genders entirely)

Objectification of women in media is commonplace. Do you think all or even most women don't care about objectification?

I think they do, but equality is also a big issue. If both sexes were portrayed in an overly sexist manor, then people might not be as upset as if it were just a single sex being singled out. But if things became equal, then I guess people probably would try to straighten out the issue of sexism in genders until that problem is fixed. I guess what I'm saying is, people will probably be more concerned about things being gender equal first, and then once things are equal, tackle issue and eliminate it on both sides. To give an example of why I think this, I was on youtube and found a video for a shooter game where someone had a gun and was shooting students in the school. The person was searching specifically for african american people, and shooting only them. In the comments, people weren't in an uproar about how defenseless people were being shot in a school, they were upset mainly about the fact that only the African American people were being shot. If the person shot people equally, then people would probably move onto the fact that someone is in a school campus shooting unarmed people.

How about we push back against all sexism, wherever we find it, instead? If the writing/design of female characters is shitty, the solution is not to make writing/design of male characters shitty in the same way.

Kahunaburger:
I think the night they were referring to was the night they spent fighting while he waited for her curse to time out. The intro is basically from a short story, and in that story sex is definitely not part of the deal.

Yeah that was the impression I got as well, although making a double entendre out of it would be in keeping with The Witchers "wink wink, nudge nudge, omg titties" approach to sex.

Fappy:
I assume that implies I am intelligent as well?

Awesome.

/highfives Guppy.

I know, this is super heartening. It makes me feel 100% better about all the stupid decisions I keep making in life.

Need an example of a well done female character? Samus Aran before Other M. That is all.

Kahunaburger:

DeltaEdge:

Kahunaburger:

Objectification of women in media is commonplace. Do you think all or even most women don't care about objectification?

I think they do, but equality is also a big issue. If both sexes were portrayed in an overly sexist manor, then people might not be as upset as if it were just a single sex being singled out. But if things became equal, then I guess people probably would try to straighten out the issue of sexism in genders until that problem is fixed. I guess what I'm saying is, people will probably be more concerned about things being gender equal first, and then once things are equal, tackle issue and eliminate it on both sides. To give an example of why I think this, I was on youtube and found a video for a shooter game where someone had a gun and was shooting students in the school. The person was searching specifically for african american people, and shooting only them. In the comments, people weren't in an uproar about how defenseless people were being shot in a school, they were upset mainly about the fact that only the African American people were being shot. If the person shot people equally, then people would probably move onto the fact that someone is in a school campus shooting unarmed people.

How about we push back against all sexism, wherever we find it, instead? If the writing/design of female characters is shitty, the solution is not to make writing/design of male characters shitty in the same way.

Works for me. Sounds better than the BS I've been shoving into this thread. I'll just go with that from now on.

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. I rarely see games that are actively sexist (as opposed to ones that just skimp on the women), but I'm always happy to see games that really make an effort to give 3-dimensional women characters. Bioware's been a real stand-out in this regard for me.

Personally, I didn't find Witcher to be misogynistic. I do think that there does seem to be some areas where sex is confused with sexism. It's pretty equal-opportunity as far as being clever or stupid, pretty or ugly, nice or evil goes. Having lots of sex does not equal being misogynistic. (Yes, I do have every single sex card.)

And sure, Catwoman is objectified, but that doesn't make me think she's any less awesome. (I so wanted to be Catwoman a la Eartha Kitt when I was a kid. Her, Emma Peel, and Valeria from Conan - rowr.) As far as women in video games having DD cups... well, so do I, so I'm all for being well-represented. ;)

Well I dont know if mainstream devs are deliberately trying to discourage women from playing their games or not but if they are they are doing a pretty poor job of it I know more women who play games (mainstream and casual) now than I ever have before and thats not because I know a lot more women all of a sudden.

Assassins Creed 3 said that a female protagonist wouldn't fit into the period of the game (yet a Native American would be acceptable and wouldn't rouse suspicion wherever he went?).

He's half-Native American (so he's not going to draw too much attention), and it does make more sense than having a woman carry a trunk-load of weapons around with her at that time.

The Witcher of course has Geralt whose misogyny is accepted because of the books. Meanwhile if developers made a Conan game would he be portrayed as a racist?

Geralt's as misogynistic as you make him (at least in the second game - CDP took note in response to those criticisms of the first game), so that doesn't really work. I'm pretty sure you can also be racist (albeit to Dwarves and Elves).

However, I would like to see more female protagonists, or at least more realistic secondary female characters.

Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

Woodsey:
Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

Those straight white males will need to deal with their overwhelming sense of bratty entitlement sooner or later because whether they like it or not, demographic trends are pointing to them becoming a smaller and smaller part of the general population every year.

I'm sure they conveniently won't be such corporate apologists at that point though.

Well, devs are only people and people are overall pretty sexist. Also, lazy devs tend to focus their work in attracting the historically larger audience, males. I think some progress is getting made, but it is pretty slow and there and after all, it isn't only women who are represened poorly in games; LGBT and racial minorities also have issues with videogames.

We should just be talking about lack of diversity in videogames and not dwell on the subsets of that diversity. I think it will probably get the job done much faster.

BloatedGuppy:
I know, this is super heartening. It makes me feel 100% better about all the stupid decisions I keep making in life.

Everybody makes a bad call now and again. Hell, I bought a ticket to see Revenge of the Sith in theaters. What was I thinking?

wench:
Personally, I didn't find Witcher to be misogynistic. I do think that there does seem to be some areas where sex is confused with sexism. It's pretty equal-opportunity as far as being clever or stupid, pretty or ugly, nice or evil goes. Having lots of sex does not equal being misogynistic. (Yes, I do have every single sex card.)

The sex cards aren't exactly a very... mature way of handling all the sex Geralt has though. When the first one came up, my thought was, "The developers think this is what I want?" I'm no prude. In fact I'm actually okay with polyamory. But I'm in my late-20's for fuck's sake. Is it really too much to ask that I not be handed a bonus that seems to assume I'm a 13-year-old who just figured out that boobs are great? It feels more like a pretense toward maturity.

Woodsey:
Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

And therein is a problem. To put it succinctly, fuck 'em. Gamers are incredibly weak-willed demographic. If you put in a greater variety of well-written characters who aren't generically handsome white men with short brown hair, they'll piss and moan for a while, but then they'll buy the titles anyway. The sun will set in the east before these over-privileged weirdos inconvenience themselves with a boycott.

The Madman:
Let's be honest here, more men play video games than women, especially when it comes to the more 'hardcore' style games. A lot more men. Thus developers tend to cater to their intended audience.

When more women get into gaming as a hobby and make themselves known as an influence within the medium things will change, until then you'll have the majority of hardcore games catering towards the majority of their audience. It's a pity really, but there you go. Sort of a self-perpetuating circle: not enough women play these sorts of games and so developers generally don't try to appeal towards them which, in turn, discourages more women from playing games.

Statistically around 2 in 5 'gamers' are women which sounds encouraging until you realize that of those around 80% primarily play on the wii, where it would be a fair guess to say they're not playing games like Resident Evil 4 (Which was awesome on the wii) but more of the wii sports, wii fitness type of games. source

Again it's a shame but there you go.

On a side note I continue to disagree with you about The Witcher, but I remember we've talked about that before in a previous topic and I really don't feel like another bout of pointless debate that will change nothing.

Sir, you're fuckin' awesome.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 . . . 17 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked