Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

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fookolt:

Woodsey:
Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

Those straight white males will need to deal with their overwhelming sense of bratty entitlement sooner or later because whether they like it or not, demographic trends are pointing to them becoming a smaller and smaller part of the general population every year.

I'm sure they conveniently won't be such corporate apologists at that point though.

Demographic trends in the general population, true. Not so sure about that being true of people who a) make games or b) play games, so there'll be quite a bit of lag until it catches up.

xXxJessicaxXx:
snip

Sorry, I worded that so badly!

I meant in the eyes of the devs the perfect game for girls would be ....

Of course I was using bucket fulls of hyperbole.

LilithSlave:
snip

BTW I loathe MLP and the thought of MLP games horrifies me.

Lets not get into that here though for the above quote corrects my mistake.

Angry Juju:

omega 616:
Or it would turn out as this bland gender neutral game 'cos they were trying oh so hard to keep everybody happy and not make waves.

No it wouldn't. It would turn into Final Fantasy X-2. The class mechanic for that game is essentially changing outfits, unlocking more outfits and upgrading the abilities in that outfit. Then you have scenes where the three girls are doing what stereotypical teenage girls do. That side of the game is Squeenix's way of catering to women, i'm not saying it's the ideal way and i'm not saying I approve of it, but it's how they tried to do it.

BUT THEN it takes a U turn and you get the scenes such as the massage scenes as well as the Gagazet hot spring scene and the fact that most of the outfits (including Rikku's default outfit) lack a lot of clothing.

Sorry, what game are you talking about? lulz!

You do realize what you said, right? The aimed the dress up barbie segments at girls and the (to me) unseen scenes you talked about.

There was no "here is a game for both sexes".

The only games I think do it right are bioware ones, I am not some bioware fanboy but there females are pretty awesome!

I love Jack and Morrigan, the other females aren't bad either. They are just like the males, they dress a little more revealing but don't females IRL do that? There are pure bitches and badass's like Morrigan and Jack but there are also hopeless romantics (leliana), determined but kinda cool ones (Miranda, Tali).

Woodsey:

fookolt:

Woodsey:
Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

Those straight white males will need to deal with their overwhelming sense of bratty entitlement sooner or later because whether they like it or not, demographic trends are pointing to them becoming a smaller and smaller part of the general population every year.

I'm sure they conveniently won't be such corporate apologists at that point though.

Demographic trends in the general population, true. Not so sure about that being true of people who a) make games or b) play games, so there'll be quite a bit of lag until it catches up.

Those will catch up eventually (you can already see it in those who play games).

At that point, I hope all those entitled brats will have the mental fortitude to deal with the entire world moving on and leaving them behind.

In any case, it's in the best interest of both developers and gamers to have more diversity and inclusiveness in games.

Woodsey:
Demographic trends in the general population, true. Not so sure about that being true of people who a) make games or b) play games, so there'll be quite a bit of lag until it catches up.

Games are already becoming a mainstream hobby. If the publishers pay attention to the writing on the wall (no indication as of yet sadly), they'll start making more diverse characters and stories or they're going to end up in the same place Hollywood is in right now. Hollywood doesn't believe that middle class black people are a demographic worth paying attention to. So what do black people get? Tyler Perry movies.

It's kind of weird when you stop and think that the only game franchise currently out that caters to all demographics equally by allowing you to customize the appearance and personalities of the characters is... The Sims. Yeah, they all still sound like white people on quaaludes, but still. Some people don't even consider it a game, yet it's one of EA's biggest cash cows and it's also the most inclusive to all demographics. And while correlation does not equal causation, I think it's worth looking into the possibility that said inclusiveness might be a contributing factor to the franchise's success.

omega 616:

The only games I think do it right are bioware ones, I am not some bioware fanboy but there females are pretty awesome!

I love Jack and Morrigan, the other females aren't bad either. They are just like the males, they dress a little more revealing but don't females IRL do that? There are pure bitches and badass's like Morrigan and Jack but there are also hopeless romantics (leliana), determined but kinda cool ones (Miranda, Tali).

Bolded: probably not the best choice of terminology.

I think that Bioware writing tends to reflect a variety of sexist notions whenever they write a given female character as a love interest. They do write female characters in a non-sexist fashion (Wild Flower, Dr. Chakwas, Wynne, etc.) when they aren't writing the characters as love interests, but the second they decide a character will have a romance subplot they go into full derp mode.

Kahunaburger:

omega 616:

The only games I think do it right are bioware ones, I am not some bioware fanboy but there females are pretty awesome!

I love Jack and Morrigan, the other females aren't bad either. They are just like the males, they dress a little more revealing but don't females IRL do that? There are pure bitches and badass's like Morrigan and Jack but there are also hopeless romantics (leliana), determined but kinda cool ones (Miranda, Tali).

Bolded: probably not the best choice of terminology.

I think that Bioware writing tends to reflect a variety of sexist notions whenever they write a given female character as a love interest. They do write female characters in a non-sexist fashion (Wild Flower, Dr. Chakwas, Wynne, etc.) when they aren't writing the characters as love interests, but the second they decide a character will have a romance subplot they go into full derp mode.

Why is it not the best terminology? Morrigan disapproves everything that Satan wouldn't do and Jack snipes at you like crazy when you first meet her.

I dunno as far as I know Tali was a love interest and her character wasn't bad, her clothes are tight as hell though.

omega 616:

Kahunaburger:

omega 616:

The only games I think do it right are bioware ones, I am not some bioware fanboy but there females are pretty awesome!

I love Jack and Morrigan, the other females aren't bad either. They are just like the males, they dress a little more revealing but don't females IRL do that? There are pure bitches and badass's like Morrigan and Jack but there are also hopeless romantics (leliana), determined but kinda cool ones (Miranda, Tali).

Bolded: probably not the best choice of terminology.

I think that Bioware writing tends to reflect a variety of sexist notions whenever they write a given female character as a love interest. They do write female characters in a non-sexist fashion (Wild Flower, Dr. Chakwas, Wynne, etc.) when they aren't writing the characters as love interests, but the second they decide a character will have a romance subplot they go into full derp mode.

Why is it not the best terminology? Morrigan disapproves everything that Satan wouldn't do and Jack snipes at you like crazy when you first meet her.

I dunno as far as I know Tali was a love interest and her character wasn't bad, her clothes are tight as hell though.

Tali's character essentially derails into doormat territory when her love subplot starts, because apparently Bioware's worried that the neckbeards won't be attracted to her unless she hero-worships and is completely dependent on their player-character.

DrVornoff:

It's kind of weird when you stop and think that the only game franchise currently out that caters to all demographics equally by allowing you to customize the appearance and personalities of the characters is... The Sims. Yeah, they all still sound like white people on quaaludes, but still. Some people don't even consider it a game, yet it's one of EA's biggest cash cows and it's also the most inclusive to all demographics. And while correlation does not equal causation, I think it's worth looking into the possibility that said inclusiveness might be a contributing factor to the franchise's success.

Absolutely. I still think this is also what made ME such a great success with casual gamers (I have to consider myself one of them): The illusion of being able to customize, the illusion of actual choice. And control, of course.

I didn't have the same experience playing DE:HR. I liked it, but for all it's great points, I expected more. This "more" is, in my opinion, the subtlety of that kind of choice/control.

Someone up thread said that people tend to customize according to their race, and I think they are right. I never chose a black character, because I am not black. I could if I wanted to. I think it is important to include as many possibilities of character choice as possible, because not having those possibilities reinforces real life gender/race/sexuality/whatever bias.

So in a way stuff in games can hurt real people.

And it's really stupid of game producers not to cash in on those other demographics.
It's not as if those demographics just hopped into existence yesterday.
If they make games customizable in this respect producers don't have to think of every detail. They can leave this, as it should be, to the person playing the game.

omega 616:

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

MomoElektra:

omega 616:

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

I thought it was funny... I looked at the title and essentially felt "color me intrigued"... because I hadn't seen such. Then I looked at the titles mentioned.

xXxJessicaxXx:
Assassins Creed 3
The Witcher
Kingdoms of Amalur
Risen 2

I haven't even considered playing one of those games. The Witcher quite specifically because of the reputation for childish misogyny (some of the rest of it sounds passable, but I'm not into having an RPG throw sex at me like that), but the others... couldn't stand the game mechanics of the first title, one that screams Generic Fantasy Game #972,875,051... and... a pirate game I haven't heard of. Huh.

I guess I'm a gaming hippie, only paying attention to progressive (or gender-neutral) titles.

fookolt:

MomoElektra:

omega 616:

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Yes.

lacktheknack:

BloatedGuppy:

lacktheknack:
In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Ahahahaha really? Really? Did they change that for the Enhanced Edition, or did I just miss it?

Because that's pretty funny.

Terrible, of course. So terrible it's hilarious.

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

Not even close. Geralt spent the night with her from dusk until dawn laying on the lid of the coffin she was trapped in in monster form until dawn when she would return to being a normal human being and the fight would end. Nothing sexual about the opening cutscene.

You go through the exact same scene (this time, through actual gameplay) in the game as well in Chapter 3 when you have to do it all over again, and there is definitely no sex involved.

DrVornoff:

The sex cards aren't exactly a very... mature way of handling all the sex Geralt has though. When the first one came up, my thought was, "The developers think this is what I want?" I'm no prude. In fact I'm actually okay with polyamory. But I'm in my late-20's for fuck's sake. Is it really too much to ask that I not be handed a bonus that seems to assume I'm a 13-year-old who just figured out that boobs are great? It feels more like a pretense toward maturity.

Personally, I saw it more as a sort of achievement system. And as far as things to get for being completionist, that's the most interesting version of awards I've seen. ;) When I heard about them, I'll admit, I had the same sort of reaction as you. That said, by the time I got my first one, I totally loved them - and a lot of them were really quite beautiful.

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex? As a side note - it's not something they added on for the game, the sex is a definite carry-over from the books, and it's fairly well rationalized in there. I highly recommend them, by the way, especially if you can read another language (most of them aren't in English yet).

lacktheknack:

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

That video is actually portraying a short story from the book 'The Last Wish', and having read said story I can assure you it's not sexual in any way. He essentially just has to keep her preoccupied and unable to return to her sleep till the sun rises, later on in the game you have to lift that very same curse using the same method and are given the choice of just deliberately killing the person or baiting them, running around, and just generally trying to avoid combat till the sun rises.

You're reading wayyyyyy too far into this. The original Witcher has it's bad points; those stupid cards for example (Which thankfully aren't in Witcher 2) but that definitely isn't one of them.

Freechoice:

Sir, you're fuckin' awesome.

Why thank you, it looks delicious!

wench:

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

MomoElektra:

fookolt:

MomoElektra:

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Yes.

It's in the same category as queer, though - it's a reasonably well-reclaimed word. If you asked Jack whether she was a bitch or not, you think she'd say no? The fact that it was used as a combination of bitch/badass gives it a positive connotation in my mind.

xXxJessicaxXx:

Vault101:

xXxJessicaxXx:

It's not what I meant.

If game devs go out of the way to make women feel uncomfortable then how can they expect women to buy or play their games?

I can play Skyrim fine for example but The Witcher makes me feel physically ill. I love Deus Ex even thought you play as a guy because he isn't a complete asshat and women are represented as intelligent beings and not just there as eye candy.

The demographic is going to show more women buying games if they make women feel like they are as equal in the dev's eyes as the male audience.

oh, I agree

but you just showed (more or less) that at least a few big AAA games dont have women running around in chain male bikinis..the witcher thing actually seems like an almsot minority..so things are "sort of" getting better

though cat woman needs to fix her fucking zipper

I just feel like recently devs have discovered they can hide behind 'historical reasons' and 'It's lore' to explain away pandering to their male audience and excluding women.

It's lore that Conan is a big racist. I doubt they would make a game that included that part of his character so why is Geralt's sexism acceptable? It's the same level of offensive.

*facepalm*
I hate it when something that's part of the setting makes people scream.
"SEXIST!" or "RACIST"
Portraying someone like he is even if it as a negative aspect of his personality should be something that devs should be able to do.
If a character is racist portraying him as racist gives his character more depth.
If a character is sexist portraying him as sexist gives his character more depth.

Making a character racist or sexist should be able to be done because a character that is not a pure goodie-too-shoe is a rarity these days.
I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
Tell me why does every character need to be without any negative aspects in his personality?
please tell me why.

MomoElektra:

wench:

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

That'd be kind of like saying that a game should make Frodo or Gandalf women - it's a set character from literature rather than a created-from-scratch one. So, no, I don't think that one would have been possible.

wench:

MomoElektra:

fookolt:

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Yes.

It's in the same category as queer, though - it's a reasonably well-reclaimed word. If you asked Jack whether she was a bitch or not, you think she'd say no? The fact that it was used as a combination of bitch/badass gives it a positive connotation in my mind.

Maybe. But ...what's the word again... making a bad word mean something good, that only works for the marginalized group. For example some lesbians using "cunt" or some people of color using "n*gger"... it just is different when members of a marginalized group use it than people from the oppressing group (I have that information from people from exactly those groups, but it may not be true for every member of those groups).

If Jack, as a video game character, likes that description, that is her right. Doesn't make the term any less problematic.

Or to be very specific: There is a subtle difference between Jack calling herself a bitch and some other character, say Miranda, calling her that.

It's still a slur, but Jack would use it as a tool for empowerment while Miranda would use it as a means of oppression.

wench:

MomoElektra:

wench:

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

That'd be kind of like saying that a game should make Frodo or Gandalf women - it's a set character from literature rather than a created-from-scratch one. So, no, I don't think that one would have been possible.

Because the source doesn't allow for it? Relevant point, doesn't change anything concerning the sexism, though.

DrVornoff:

wench:
Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

Don't sensationalize it with a fucking achievement system.

Really good point.

Kahunaburger:
Tali's character essentially derails into doormat territory when her love subplot starts, because apparently Bioware's worried that the neckbeards won't be attracted to her unless she hero-worships and is completely dependent on their player-character.

Not trying to be contrarian, but in one of my playthroughs I read into it a bit differently. I was playing a Colonist/Sole Survivor Shepard, a guy who had everything he ever loved violently ripped away from him repeatedly. Tali felt like a stranger even among her own people. Each of them saw the other as the only one they could be vulnerable around, the only one who understood what it was like to feel so lonely.

I'll grant you that this may have been in large part my own feverish imagination hard at work, but there you have it.

wench:
Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

Don't sensationalize it with a fucking achievement system.

As a side note - it's not something they added on for the game, the sex is a definite carry-over from the books, and it's fairly well rationalized in there. I highly recommend them, by the way, especially if you can read another language (most of them aren't in English yet).

What language? Slovak, Czech, Polish? I just started trying to learn Slovak in the hopes of visiting the old country some day in the not-too-distant future.

rolfwesselius:
I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Here we fucking go again. Do you even know what political correctness is? Do you realize that bitching about it in all caps just makes you look like a tool?

wench:

MomoElektra:

wench:

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

That'd be kind of like saying that a game should make Frodo or Gandalf women - it's a set character from literature rather than a created-from-scratch one. So, no, I don't think that one would have been possible.

Portray women like they are normal people and not sex obsessed doormats who can't control themselves the minute Geralt walks in?

There is sex in Mass Effect but the female characters act like they are people and not virtual whores.

MomoElektra:

omega 616:

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

fookolt:

MomoElektra:

omega 616:

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.

DrVornoff:

Kahunaburger:
Tali's character essentially derails into doormat territory when her love subplot starts, because apparently Bioware's worried that the neckbeards won't be attracted to her unless she hero-worships and is completely dependent on their player-character.

Not trying to be contrarian, but in one of my playthroughs I read into it a bit differently. I was playing a Colonist/Sole Survivor Shepard, a guy who had everything he ever loved violently ripped away from him repeatedly. Tali felt like a stranger even among her own people. Each of them saw the other as the only one they could be vulnerable around, the only one who understood what it was like to feel so lonely.

I'll grant you that this may have been in large part my own feverish imagination hard at work, but there you have it.

wench:
Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

Don't sensationalize it with a fucking achievement system.

As a side note - it's not something they added on for the game, the sex is a definite carry-over from the books, and it's fairly well rationalized in there. I highly recommend them, by the way, especially if you can read another language (most of them aren't in English yet).

What language? Slovak, Czech, Polish? I just started trying to learn Slovak in the hopes of visiting the old country some day in the not-too-distant future.

rolfwesselius:
I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

Here we fucking go again. Do you even know what political correctness is? Do you realize that bitching about it in all caps just makes you look like a tool?

Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.

Yes i know what it means.

rolfwesselius:

*facepalm*
I hate it when something that's part of the setting makes people scream.
"SEXIST!" or "RACIST"
Portraying someone like he is even if it as a negative aspect of his personality should be something that devs should be able to do.
If a character is racist portraying him as racist gives his character more depth.
If a character is sexist portraying him as sexist gives his character more depth.

Making a character racist or sexist should be able to be done because a character that is not a pure goodie-too-shoe Pansy is a rarity these days.
I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
Tell me why does every character need to be without any negative aspects in his personality?
please tell me why.

You almost had me with you right up to the "pansy" comment. Sure, I think that characters should be able to have depth - and that includes negative aspects. But there's a line between the character being one of those things and the game just flat-out supporting those attitudes.

xXxJessicaxXx:

wench:

MomoElektra:

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?

That'd be kind of like saying that a game should make Frodo or Gandalf women - it's a set character from literature rather than a created-from-scratch one. So, no, I don't think that one would have been possible.

Portray women like they are normal people and not sex obsessed doormats who can't control themselves the minute Geralt walks in?

There is sex in Mass Effect but the female characters act like they are people and not virtual whores.

Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters.
Well except the elf and the succubus

wench:

rolfwesselius:

*facepalm*
I hate it when something that's part of the setting makes people scream.
"SEXIST!" or "RACIST"
Portraying someone like he is even if it as a negative aspect of his personality should be something that devs should be able to do.
If a character is racist portraying him as racist gives his character more depth.
If a character is sexist portraying him as sexist gives his character more depth.

Making a character racist or sexist should be able to be done because a character that is not a pure goodie-too-shoe Pansy is a rarity these days.
I HATE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
Tell me why does every character need to be without any negative aspects in his personality?
please tell me why.

You almost had me with you right up to the "pansy" comment. Sure, I think that characters should be able to have depth - and that includes negative aspects. But there's a line between the character being one of those things and the game just flat-out supporting those attitudes.

Sorry i meant the term goodie too shoe pansy as a
"charactre with no flaws"
Im editing it sorry.

rolfwesselius:

Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters?
Well except the elf and the succubus

No I haven't because the first one made me feel physically ill.

I guess it's because of people like me.

Sorry.

'Let's discourage people from buying our games, that's a good business strategy!'

I'd take a good guess that's not what they're doing, but rather, focusing so much on men under 30 that every other demographic is basically ignored.

omega 616:

MomoElektra:

omega 616:

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

fookolt:

MomoElektra:

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.

But the people playing those games are not pixels. They have feelings, which get hurt, and some others of them might feel incouraged in their sexist/racist/andsoon beliefs.

That's a bad thing. This hurts real people.

rolfwesselius:

Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters.
Well except the elf and the succubus

Normal? You do not realize that there might be a problem with what you consider "normal women"?
Like, say, not realizing that women are people and such don't really operate according to simple stereotypes based on gender*?

*Aside from the ones that get pushed on them with sugar/cane by society

MomoElektra:

Because the source doesn't allow for it? Relevant point, doesn't change anything concerning the sexism, though.

I have yet to hear anyone actually point out what in the game is sexist, despite a lot of people saying it is. Can someone give me something a bit more concrete? I'm willing to concede the point, but I need a bit more to go on than there being a lot of sex and the protagonist being male.

DrVornoff:

wench:
Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

Don't sensationalize it with a fucking achievement system.

Meh, you have fun in your way, and I'll have it in mine. =) Actually, a fucking achievement system is a brilliant description for it!

Kahunaburger:

lacktheknack:

BloatedGuppy:

Ahahahaha really? Really? Did they change that for the Enhanced Edition, or did I just miss it?

Because that's pretty funny.

Terrible, of course. So terrible it's hilarious.

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

I think the night they were referring to was the night they spent fighting while he waited for her curse to time out. The intro is basically from a short story, and in that story sex is definitely not part of the deal.

I'm probably projecting. Sorry. :S

My original point isn't moot, though. The whole "sex and trading cards" didn't exactly thrill feminists everywhere.

DrVornoff:

Kahunaburger:
Tali's character essentially derails into doormat territory when her love subplot starts, because apparently Bioware's worried that the neckbeards won't be attracted to her unless she hero-worships and is completely dependent on their player-character.

Not trying to be contrarian, but in one of my playthroughs I read into it a bit differently. I was playing a Colonist/Sole Survivor Shepard, a guy who had everything he ever loved violently ripped away from him repeatedly. Tali felt like a stranger even among her own people. Each of them saw the other as the only one they could be vulnerable around, the only one who understood what it was like to feel so lonely.

I'll grant you that this may have been in large part my own feverish imagination hard at work, but there you have it.

I think that's a fair reading of your playthrough - I'm just not sure that's the reason Bioware wrote Tali the way they did. Incidentally, I always wished that the games would acknowledge Shep's past more than they did. In particular, I really wished that I had a "you want me to join Cerberus? Maybe you should have thought of that before you fed my buddies to a thresher maw." dialogue option when talking to TIM in ME2.

MomoElektra:
snip

What? I am hurting real people by calling two game characters bitches? I get the feeling you want to be offended, like one of those people who writes letters of complaint to TV stations 'cos they saw the original XBOX advert of the guy flying into his grave.

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