MOVIEBOB you're wrong about the Mass Effect Ending! The art is ours as well as theirs.

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thebighead01:

Now I've seen many arguments for a new ending, but also many counter arguments that us fans have no right to ask for one.

This right here. This sums the whole ideology up and where the fracture begins.

The resistance to the change the ending thing, is not that fans do not have the the right to ask for a new ending. Its that the people who are bent out of shape arent asking for a new ending. They are basically demanding a new ending.

Starting a charity drive to garner good will and support? Filing false advertisement lawsuits? These are not the actions of people asking for the change. They are the actions of people demanding a change and not willing to consider their request being denied.

As you can see, that creates a dangerous precedent.

Anyway, Bob is not wrong in his opinion. Remember, it is an opinion. Completely subjective. So right or wrong, really doesnt even factor into it.

Edit: Man I HATE being the first post on a new page. Means I will be quoted for the next 3 pages.

viranimus:
Edit: Man I HATE being the first post on a new page. Means I will be quoted for the next 3 pages.

Damn right, and I'm gonna be the first to do it. >:)

It's like you said:

viranimus:
Its that the people who are bent out of shape arent asking for a new ending. They are basically demanding a new ending.

You already know this I'm sure, but to everyone else reading this, there's a big difference between telling something up front "I found something wrong..." and "This sucks. Change it NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!" And we've all seen far more of the latter than the former. Anybody ever hear the phrase "he who yells loudest is heard"? Same idea here - it's why the term "vocal minority" exists.

There was a guy on a different thread saying that "BioWare owes us the ending we deserve". I don't think I need to go into detail how full-of-shit I think that sounds.

thebighead01:
We also made that art too.

Making art and playing out a story are two ENTIRELY different things.

Unlike any other medium games allow us to BE the protagonist in the story.[/quote] I could play the leading role in a play. I can read a choose your own adventure novel and there are quite a few examples of interactive stories on Television and in advertisements.

thebighead01:
The story, the world unfolds around us, reacts to us, we are not observers. This is especially true with a series like Mass Effect because unlike a lot of other games the player is given CHOICE.

A choice with pre-written consequences by Bioware. If a person writes two endings to the same story and I can choose which ending I get by picking option A or B, that does not mean I had a part in creating the art.

thebighead01:
And this is the point. It is this choice that allows us to not only shape our world, but also the story that's being told.

Its a world that is open to change because Bioware WROTE it like that.

thebighead01:

I'm not sure if the Anti-Change ending camp has realised but people refer to Shepard as MY Shepard.

Because you created his unique looks, powers and backstory. Its the same way people do the same thing in regards to any game with a huge amount of customization. Saints Row 3, Skyrim and any MMO in existence and so on.

thebighead01:
We were the hero and we made the decisions. In this case, shouldn't we be able to see where this brings us? Surely not all in the same place right?

See, you keep making the false generalization that because you made the choices that Bioware had created for you, you automatically assume you helped create the art. You didn't. You made choices with pre-determined consequences and story lines. Bioware and their writers are the sole creators and you have no claim to their work.

Dr Jones:
Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

Well, no.

See, I'm probably repeating the comments of others here, but you, as the player had no real creative input into the game.

That you can make choices in a game like mass effect. (or even build entire worlds from the ground up if you feel like it in games like minecraft and terraria) does not get around the fact that you are playing within an environment whose constraints have been entirely devised by the game's creators.

What you can, and cannot do in any given game is as much a result of how the game's creators made it as what any given line of dialogue, or cutscene looked like.

That games are interactive changes nothing about the creative process other than that the creation now has to account for the potential for more than a simple linear narrative.

That's not to say fans have no input into a game series, but that's only because it's a commercial art. I'm sure if you were a wealthy aristocrat in the renaissance that asked an artist to paint your portrait, you'd have certain expectations of the result too.
But that doesn't necessarily mean the artist will cater to your every whim. And the more famous the artist, the more it is understood that you can't start demanding they do things your way.
(Or for that matter, that you'll get something from them at all. - Plenty of people wanted Leonardo Da Vinci's art, but he rarely finished anything he did.)

As for blade runner, yes things get changed after the fact sometimes.

But correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the 'change' made in that case a "director's cut"?
That implies the original was something that the creator wasn't happy with, but which was forced on them by the people paying the bills. (eg. The film studio.)

For an artist, that's an inherent risk with art created with a budget in mind. (Though remember that few modern media lend themselves to non-commercial art; A portrait painting can be done to about the same quality whether done on commission, or at the whims of an artist. A film or game requires so much work, and so many people to make, that anything created for non-commercial means is very unlikely to match the craftsmanship of a commercial entertainment product. - Even if the actual core idea is just as good, if not better.)

In any event, I'm not sure the mass effect ending can actually be said to be a result of any artistic vision.

I haven't seen it, but it sounds more like something which was done with little thought or care.

If it was the way it is for a specific reason, i'd tell everyone that wants it changed to just piss off and get over themselves.
But it doesn't sounds like that's the case... More like it's just a lazy ending that was done in a rush and not thought out very well.

viranimus:

thebighead01:

Now I've seen many arguments for a new ending, but also many counter arguments that us fans have no right to ask for one.

This right here. This sums the whole ideology up and where the fracture begins.

The resistance to the change the ending thing, is not that fans do not have the the right to ask for a new ending. Its that the people who are bent out of shape arent asking for a new ending. They are basically demanding a new ending.

Starting a charity drive to garner good will and support? Filing false advertisement lawsuits? These are not the actions of people asking for the change. They are the actions of people demanding a change and not willing to consider their request being denied.

As you can see, that creates a dangerous precedent.

Anyway, Bob is not wrong in his opinion. Remember, it is an opinion. Completely subjective. So right or wrong, really doesnt even factor into it.

Edit: Man I HATE being the first post on a new page. Means I will be quoted for the next 3 pages.

Quoted on the 2nd page. Don't worry viranimus, I've got your back. :). I understand your argument. In some cases it seems that people have gone too far, but it does come from a place of intense passion. Unfortunately, sometimes, people don't know how to properly express that passion. Whether the should have asked for a change or demanded for one...not sure. In any case Bioware is releasing an extended version. Whether this is because of being asked or being demanded of, well I hope it's the former.

And you're right, Bob is certainly entitled to his opinion. It's his conclusion that I have trouble with. Conclusions, even when based on opinion can be wrong.

I was going to say something, but, it looks like it's been said a lot, already. Oh, well. I'll say it, anyway. It is not our art. It is BioWare's. They owe us nothing. We did not make any art here. All the player does is play around like a normal game and make choices designed by BioWare with ramifications designed by BioWare with conclusions designed by BioWare. Basically, all we're doing is pressing "A", "B" or "C" to get a particular version of "Event L".

It's like reading a Choose Your Own Adventure book. You didn't make the story. You just picked out which parts you wanted to gaze at.

ME isn't different from other games - if it is art that we help create, then so are all other games. There are no games which do not involve choices (such a game would be a book or movie instead). As long as you are choosing who to shoot, where to go, what to look at: you are making art, and so your choices shape the game. This is true of ALL games, not just ME. Don't fall for the Bioware advertising - the series is not unique, it just frames the choices you made as being unique and important despite a universal and generic ending. And it worked, this thread is proof of that.

thebighead01:

Dr Jones:
Congratulations with your opinion and all, but there was ZERO reason to make a new thread about it. Your opinion brings nothing new to the table, it could aswell be a post in the already well established Moviebob ME3 thread.
Why isnt this locked?

I did explain why but guess you didn't read it. I've read the other threads but felt that the argument got overshadowed by people wanting a happier ending and the like. There didn't seem to be any look into the source of this discontent, such as the personalisation effect of the games that was negated by the ending, and how this affects our perceptions of art, of games as art, and the relationship between the audience and artist. And I didn't want that being swamped in the hundreds of other posts. Hope that answered your question.

That is a terrible reason, tbh. You are basically saying that you feel your opinion is more important than others, and wanted a special place to put it, so people would read it.

thebighead01:
Wow, really some hostile people out there. I was hoping for some interesting debate on this subject, guess I'm not going to get that.

But firstly, just lol. You lot must be the type of consumers corporations get wet dreams over. Me, I'm of the mind that if you work hard for your money, and use said money for a product or service, and don't get what was promised or delivered you have the right to complain and demand for a refund or what was promised. Multiple endings was promised, and was not delivered. Simple as that. If you're of the mind that you should never complain when you don't get what you paid for, well, you have my sympathies. Guess you must have been screwed many a time to make you this cynical.

For someone who seems peeved about hostility, you seem quite hostile yourself. They did give multiple endings, the differences may be aesthetic, but they are different. They delivered on the promise. We're aren't being cynical, we are being realistic, what was promised was delivered (I still have yet to see the PROMISES that people keep pointing out... but whatever) the ending wasn't great, you have a right to say that. But stop saying a corporation allegedly promised you something and didn't deliver when they clearly did.

thebighead01:
Thanks mad825, good point, many of the games mechanics, hell, even parts of the story have been shaped by the fans. Some of these ideas would have made it into the game simply because the developers didn't think about it.

Ahh, i forgot the fans were invited to those board meetings where they were discussing mechanics. And I forgot those fans in that board meeting gave the developers a list of ideas for new combat mechanics. Wait silly me, no they just complained on forums and the developers decided to ditch the combat mechanics and come up with new ones that they thought up of themselves.

thebighead01:
LastGreatBlasphemer, you failed to understand my point. What Bioware was selling was an experience that was and became personalised. This is what was promised as wasn't delivered. Instead we got a 'one size fits all' ending. We have a right to complain.

See your rigid definition of art is the same definition that would have relegated games to being just that. The concept and definition of art of is constantly in flux. Games allow a change in that definition, and Bioware seems to realise that. They are offering an ending that I hope will offer closure. That's all that's really being asked for.

No you have a right to complain that you did not like the ending. You were NOT promised that it would be a personalized experience that you would enjoy. NO COMPANY WOULD PROMISE THIS. You keep mentioning these promises. Where are they? There may be hype, but hype is not a promise. There may be people talking at E3 or PAX or something that say they HOPE that the final installment will meet expectations. But no company would promise these things. Maybe individuals promised to make it the best they can, but one individual promising does not mean the team follows through.

You seem to have a strange definition of art. The viewer can interpret art in whatever way they want, they don't get to control it. And unless it is performance art or an installation they don't get a say in it. YOU played a game with thousands of decisions programmed into the game, you did not decide what those choices were. They are pre-made, you just pick the one you like the most. If a baker lets you pick the color of the cake icing that doesn't mean you helped to make the cake, you just got to pick from what was there.

thebighead01:
*Sigh* DrVornoff, you also failed to understand the point I was trying to make. We are not asking for director's credit. As has been pointed out fan input has shaped development of the game so our input is already there. Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences. This is what we though we bought, but we didn't get.

YOU DID GET CHOICE AND CONSEQUENCE! Through out the whole game you made choices on pre-programmed decisions. That is choice. Then your choice means pre-programmed consequences happen within the context of the universe. They all merge into one finale that is the same no matter what, but there is still choice and consequence. And yes fan input has helped Bioware decide what to change but saying, "This sucks, this is cool" does not mean that you helped to make the game. You are essentially the critic, you don't make something, you just critique it. If the developers take this input and change the next game based on your critique this does not mean you made the decisions to change it.

thebighead01:
In any case Bioware don't seem to agree with you lot. I feel that they are and will strike a balance between holding on to their creative integrity while offering what is most important. You know what it is. Say it with me now. Yes it's CLOSURE. So all your rage against this isn't really going to go to take you anywhere. Isn't it hypocritical to complain about people who complain, since you believe people shouldn't ever complain since it won't or shouldn't change anything? Hope that doesn't go over your heads.

Bioware do seem to agree. They aren't changing the ending. They are expanding on it. You didn't change anything. They are just offering you more in an attempt to appease you. We aren't saying you shouldn't complain, we're saying you are complaining for the wrong reasons. You are complaining about imagined promises, imagined input, and imagined slights. They told you they would give you a game, you got a game. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you didn't get what they said you would.

Once when I worked in a sandwich shop I had a guy look at the menu, and give me his order. We gave him his sandwich and he later came back saying it wasn't right. I asked him if all the ingredients that were supposed to be there were there, he said yes. I asked him if we made it right, he said yes. I asked him what was wrong then and he said, "I didn't like how it tasted." He then went on saying we owe him another sandwich because he didn't like the sandwich that he ordered. We made the sandwich exactly as we said we would with exactly what we said we would make it with, but he complained that that wasn't right because he didn't enjoy it. You are like that annoying guy, just because you didn't like what you got you feel entitled to something more.

thebighead01:
This is an open letter to MovieBob, and anybody else who still has energy to argue about this :) Big Wall o' Text

But the art is more theirs since they put forth the effort to design a script, determine the choices available, build the levels, the environments that those levels are based in, compose the music, develop sound effects, render it all and create the game that everyone in the world (For or Against the ending) seems to be throwing a hissyfit about

No the art isn't yours. You chose options from a list that Bioware made, and got the consequences that Bioware created.

I don't care about "artistic integrity" or anything like that but Bioware made a product, and they can make it how they wish.

Also, Bioware didn't lie about the endings. They said there were multiple endings, and there were. They never said the endings would be very different from each other.

LastGreatBlasphemer:
Wrong.
The art is Bioware's, the experience and interpretation is yours. You created nothing, you expressed nothing, you merely observed, guided, and interpreted.
You had no part of the creative process, you had no input as to how the game was made or any investment therein.
You come in when it is presented to you. You experience it. That is all you do. You are not the artist.

Although I agree with both of you to some degree. To say that we as the players have no say is ridiculous. If not for us the game would never survive and grow. We keep it going with not only our money but our love for the thing as a whole. Alot has changed since ME1 some due to us like the boring scanning stuff from the first and second game and customizable weapons were brought back because we wanted it. Never forget that the creators have a great deal in the say in what happens with what they own but to say we as a player should and do not make little to no affect on the game is just silly. Never forget who they are making the game for....us!

Blood Brain Barrier:
As long as you are choosing who to shoot, where to go, what to look at: you are making art, and so your choices shape the game.

Yes that means you are playing a game, when you control the person or thing in it obviously lol. But that does not make art. Art is the creation of an idea not deciding which npc to shoot or which level to go to next.

thebighead01:
Well I'm not, so....

Then what are you doing?

No, but you didn't acknowledge it either. This is, I believe, above all else where the problem lies. As I've said before the game offered a personalised experience that genuinely created a personal connection with the characters and the peoples in that world. This was ignored in the creation of the ending that helped to create this situation.

And this means you are entitled to a new ending how?

And what point is that? You're complaining about people complaining. Just swearing doesn't disprove this. Come on your better than that aren't you?

I am neither raging nor complaining. If I was pissed, you would know it. The point is that having played the game and emotionally invested yourself in it does not give you the authority to demand retcons and new endings because you weren't satisfied with the product. It does not give you a say in the creative direction. It does not give you a say in the writing. You created nothing but the implicit experiences in your own mind, same as we all do when reading novels, watching movies, or listening to music. Sometimes things just screw up. Express your disappointment and walk away a little older and wiser.

Darthbawls77:

Blood Brain Barrier:
As long as you are choosing who to shoot, where to go, what to look at: you are making art, and so your choices shape the game.

Yes that means you are playing a game, when you control the person or thing in it obviously lol. But that does not make art. Art is the creation of an idea not deciding which npc to shoot or which level to go to next.

"I am going to kill the guy on the left first" = An Idea.

thebighead01:
snip

They said that it would have multiple choice endings, and it did, so why are you saying it was false advertisement?

I'm fucking sick of this argument. An observer does not own artistic license to the art they admire. Let me bring this down to your level.

People complaining at Mass Effect 3's ending is like people complaining at fucking Mona Lisa. just because you were disappointed about the fact that her eyebrows weren't at the millimeter resolution you'd hoped for doesn't mean that you harass and pressure Da Vinci into repainting her to live up to your personal expectations.

The ending was written by someone who had clear knowledge on what they were doing and made the right decision for the context. Just grow up and realize that just because user-content games like Spore and LittleBigPlanet doesn't mean you can control every game you like.

The Retake Mass Effect campaign has set back the video gaming industry's pursuit for artistic recognition a good few years.

madwarper:

However, unless you are actually part of the team that wrote ME3's story, you have absolutely ZERO say in the direction that they took the game.

If you think the ending was shit, then think it's shit. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think it deserved better, then think it deserved better. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think you're entitled to have them rewrite it, then you're Wrong.

By purchasing the game, you only got the right to play the game they made. Nothing more.

Pretty much this. I like so many others wasn't satisfied with the ending, but that's not my choice to make. I was presented with 3 options, I chose one and got the ending that came with it. I'm ok with that. The last 10 minutes of the game certainly left a sour taste in my mouth, but the hours and hours from ME1 to 3 leading up to those 10 minutes are among my favorites in all of gaming.

It's been said, and honestly any post after the one I quoted are pointless. You can disagree with MovieBob if you want, but to say the observers of art have any say over its content is incorrect.

LastGreatBlasphemer:
Wrong.
The art is Bioware's, the experience and interpretation is yours. You created nothing, you expressed nothing, you merely observed, guided, and interpreted.
You had no part of the creative process, you had no input as to how the game was made or any investment therein.
You come in when it is presented to you. You experience it. That is all you do. You are not the artist.

My post would basically be repeating this guy with slightly worse wording, so I'm just gonna quote him.

I have to question why people are still arguing over this. They are coming out with a FREE dlc that claims to explain in more detail about what happened. They can't go back in time and fix this problem. They could not for see the negative impact this would have on the fanbase. But to give you credit you bring up some decent point, but the guy who mentioned we just lead the story we do not make it.

This topic is officially OLD now. Bury it.

thebighead01:

FFHAuthor...I feel I should get back to you in a separate post because quite frankly the points that you've made are really thought provoking, and I believe eloquently underpins this situation and deserves serious consideration on my part. Although MW3 better than ME3? We have to talk mate :)

I've very recently come to the conclusion that Video Games as an art form need to be addressed much differently than other forms of art simply because the way a player experiences a game influences what the game means to the player. Art is the highest form of communication, a form of communication that is used when all other forms of communication are incapable of doing so, but when we call games art we define them based upon other mediums. Game Journalists march to the drumbeat of 'it's art!' but they don't say WHY it's art, and they only call games they LIKE art.

I've never heard a reviewer call Modern Warfare 3 art. But I've heard a lot of them call Mass Effect 3 art. Why? What's the difference? They both tell a story. They both invest you in characters. They both have you go through an arch and suffer and grow. They both have you interacting with a world they've crafted. The story you experience is experienced piecemeal, you don't get massive exposition, you can't look at the scope of the wider war, you don't get long explanations of why you're doing what you're doing, your a soldier, a competent, elite soldier, but a soldier none the less. You're doing what you're told, following orders, following another character's lead.

No one complained about the Modern Warfare 3 ending, even though it IS a mechanic shift, going from FPS battle to a QTE in the final moments. But it suits the story, you've been fighting this man for three games, as multiple characters in multiple places, you've survived and hunted him at the expense of all things, it's personal, and in the end, you're in a First Person QTE, looking through Price's eyes as you're finally killing him. It's personal, it feels personal by now, he's killed your friends, he's killed your allies, he's started wars that have rocked your homeland, you WANT him dead.

Even Gears of War 3's story could be considered superior to Mass Effect 3 because the narrative and the mechanics are working in unison and not against each other. Throughout the game you see Marcus as being a soldier, a fighter, a warrior. He's not a genius, he's not a scientist, he's not a complicated man, he's been fighting a war. He isn't coming up with plans or strategies or working on wonder weapons to defeat the Locust, he's following orders. You the player are given orders, and you follow them, that's the game mechanics, go here, kill that, activate this, kill those things, defeat that. It's a mechanic that fills the game nicely, the points of player choice aren't massive earth shattering decisions, instead they're simple tactical choices that change gameplay and a firefight, not the course of the war.

Mass Effect 3 had shooting mechanics, but it also had conversation mechanics. Conversation mechanics that made up a large portion of the game and that nearly always included the ability to take radically different steps in conversations, you can verbally argue with that reporter on the Citadel who keeps trying to interview you, you can submit to her questions and reason with her, or you can punch her in the face, in three different games you can interact with her in vastly different ways with vastly different outcomes. You can avoid boss battles through conversation, you can face intractable problems and resolve them with conversation, yet the ending has you faced with a situation where your choices resolve in much the same way based upon information that you cannot refute, argue against, or examine further, you are given points to base your choice on, and that's all.

IF we demand games be called art then we need to find something that exists in all games to call it art and we need to acknowledge and focus on that thing. And that thing is Mechanics, and mechanics will change a story if they don't work together.

I was going to post a response telling the OP why he's wrong and should be punched, but it seems everyone else in this thread has already done that.

I smell a troll. All this guy is doing i responding to comments in order to piss people off and disregard their opinion just cause he disagrees, people just need to stop commenting cause its clear the OP just gets off on this attention.

thebighead01:
His main argument is that because we are not the creators of the art we have no right but this isn't true. Among all the arguments this one just doesn't seem to be mentioned. We also made that art too.

Unlike any other medium games allow us to BE the protagonist in the story. The story, the world unfolds around us, reacts to us, we are not observers. This is especially true with a series like Mass Effect because unlike a lot of other games the player is given CHOICE. And this is the point. It is this choice that allows us to not only shape our world, but also the story that's being told.

I'm sure others have already made this point, but I'll point out the flaw in your argument. One of my favorite works of art is Fight Club (either the book or the movie). The artist's (or creator) name is Chuck Palahniuk. The protagonist is not Chuck Palahniuk; instead it is the character Edward Norton portrays in the film adaptation. Protagonist does not equal artist.

You are correct in stating that video games are one of the few mediums that allows those experiencing it to actively take part in it (often as protagonist, or occasionally antagonist, depending on the game), but that does not give you creative rights. Did you personally create the world for Mass Effect? Did you personally write the quests and the multiple twists and turns in them? No? Then I suppose that doesn't make you the artist. You are the one experiencing the game, you are the one interpreting it and acting within its parameters, not creating it.

Think of it like real life. You are your own protagonist, but you didn't create the entirety of the world around you or the story in which you were placed in. You merely control it from where you started (in real life, it'd be birth, to a certain extent. In Mass Effect it is when you push play on your XBox). This is a loose analogy, so don't try to dissect it intensely.

The point is, you are not the artist despite being able to "act" in this medium. I'll admit, I haven't played any of the Mass Effects, so perhaps I'm lacking the passion so many others are displaying towards this subject. Instead, I personally think it means I am unbiassed towards the situation. You have a right to be upset if you don't like it. But actively demanding someone to change their creation is comparable to that Australian video game board that mandated certain games change to meet their parameters of decency. It is a violation of the artists creative decisions.

LastGreatBlasphemer:

You had no part of the creative process, you had no input as to how the game was made or any investment therein.

Not going to get heavily involved in the discussion, other than to say that this is incorrect. Bioware actively sought the opinions and thoughts of fans. The series evolved because of what fans thought. The gameplay mechanics themselves were overwhelming to new players in 1; they were simplified for 2. Most players felt they were TOO simple in 2; so new elements were added in 3, to give more diversity without overwhelming people.
Fans latched on to Garrus and Tali far more than the developers expected. They were made romancable characters BECAUSE OF the fan reaction to them. If it weren't for fan input they would likely never have reached the depth they have.
"Between 2 and 3" DLC- Overlord, LotSB and Arrival in order- were released to "fill the gaps" and continue Shepard's story whilst the fans waited, as a result of fans wanting DLC to do those things.

There are other examples but I'm not going to dissect the entire series, and say what was, and what may have been, a direct impact of Bioware paying attention to the fan base. The fact that they are, and have been, seeking feedback about the series is just that- a fact. The fan base DID have a part on the creative process. They have no ownership, but they had an impact, they provided ideas, and they influenced the evolution of the series.

I will say that Bioware is under no obligation to do anything for the fans, and the fans have no "entitlement" here. But it would be a drastic shift from the relationship they've developed with the fan base if they were to ignore them- and indeed, they HAVEN'T ignored them. They've already said they're going to do something. To me, that clearly says they feel there's holes which need to be addressed. That alone says a lot.

And for the people comparing complaining about this to complaining about hugely famous paintings... NO, it's not the same. You're making it sound as though no art has ever been altered due to the response it's received before. It has. Books and film have done it, most of the time before the media in question ever reaches the masses. But even after the public has experienced it, there are alterations. Cuts, additions, re-shoots, re-prints. It HAPPENS. Video games are a far more interactive medium than a painting in a gallery and needs to be treated as such. Does that mean anything gamers whine over should be altered? No. Does that mean the ending of a series should be altered because the overwhelming majority of the fan base hates it? Not necessarily. However, if a developer is aware that they've released something sub-standard, and don't feel that they've done their best? They should think about it. And I'm not in Bioware's shoes, but they clearly feel like something needs to be done, because they're DOING SOMETHING. Anything more is speculation until more information on the ending DLC is released.

Whew. None of this involves MY opinion on the ending, or what Bioware should do with it, because I don't feel that's relevant. It's also a lot longer than intended, for which I apologise.

.. The hate towards the OP, is strong in this thread .. even popcorn feels unwelcome for such a situation. Ether that or people have finally had enough of ME3 topics overall which I can't blame them for feeling irritated.

OT: Even though I hold nothing against people who feel like the fans are overreacting about ME3's ending or the fact people can like the ending- yet I have a concern when people with a reputation like MovieBob starts to bash the fans when he doesn't even bother doing research (or looking into what the real fuss for that matter...) Still, I don't think badly of MovieBob but I have lost respect for the man.

Perhaps the best way to deal with Bioware is to see how the free DLC turns out. Even if the DLC for ME3's ending is still crappy as one can imagine, at least it was free to begin with. Besides, after playing through the story all I am really into when it deals with Mass Effect is it's multiplayer. Can't wait to play as a Geth Engineer.

I'd like to take this time to go through all this dialogue just point out a few words of wisdom some might have missed out of all this text.
(In which case, I must be a Reaper! Man, my puns are awful...)

"You seem to have a strange definition of art. The viewer can interpret art in whatever way they want, they don't get to control it. And unless it is performance art or an installation they don't get a say in it. YOU played a game with thousands of decisions programmed into the game, you did not decide what those choices were. They are pre-made, you just pick the one you like the most. If a baker lets you pick the color of the cake icing that doesn't mean you helped to make the cake, you just got to pick from what was there."
-Frozengale

"No the art isn't yours. You chose options from a list that Bioware made, and got the consequences that Bioware created.

I don't care about "artistic integrity" or anything like that but Bioware made a product, and they can make it how they wish.

Also, Bioware didn't lie about the endings. They said there were multiple endings, and there were. They never said the endings would be very different from each other."
-sindremaster

"They said that it would have multiple choice endings, and it did, so why are you saying it was false advertisement?

I'm fucking sick of this argument. An observer does not own artistic license to the art they admire. Let me bring this down to your level.

People complaining at Mass Effect 3's ending is like people complaining at fucking Mona Lisa. just because you were disappointed about the fact that her eyebrows weren't at the millimeter resolution you'd hoped for doesn't mean that you harass and pressure Da Vinci into repainting her to live up to your personal expectations.

The ending was written by someone who had clear knowledge on what they were doing and made the right decision for the context. Just grow up and realize that just because user-content games like Spore and LittleBigPlanet doesn't mean you can control every game you like."

The Retake Mass Effect campaign has set back the video gaming industry's pursuit for artistic recognition a good few years."
-TerribleAssassin

I am just so sick about hearing people whining like infants about Mass Effect 3. BioWare created an incredible game. Incredible. Yet, just because less than 1% of the overall experience didn't meet expectations, people feel they're owed something better. It's your own fault for buying a product before you can even confirm weather it's good or not. I prefer to buy my games later on. There are so many older games out there for me to catch up on. I haven't even finished Doom. That way, I can know weather or not the new game is good or not and buy it when it's not new, anymore, and, therefor, cheaper.

What is it that you want? A complimentary BioWare pen?

Aside from those who supported that false advertising charge, I think we all know we have no right to a new ending. Being able to make choices in the game doesn't change that.

I don't see what's wrong with asking for a new ending though, which is what most people are doing. I also see nothing wrong with complaining about how truly awful the ending we were given was. We don't have the legal right to a better ending, but we do have the right to pester Bioware as much as we want in order to convince them to give us one. It's a fight many of us are not willing to give up yet (a testament to how great we consider Mass Effect to be, apart from the last few minutes). The extended cut DLC means almost nothing to me. I don't want the terrible, terrible ending explained, I want it replaced. No amount of explanation could change it from being awful, as the nonsensicalness was only one of its many, many problems.

thebighead01:
This is an open letter to MovieBob, and anybody else who still has energy to argue about this :)

It was just over a week ago that I had finally gotten my hands on Mass Effect 3 after waiting for what felt like an eternity so I could see the final chapter of this epic trilogy. And like many I was gravely disappointed with how it ended. I didn't fill any lawsuits, but to have a series that I would rank as the best I've very seen across any medium be destroyed in the last 10 mins of the game was just terrible.

Now I've seen many arguments for a new ending, but also many counter arguments that us fans have no right to ask for one. And this included MovieBob, of which I am a fan and usually agree with on many an issue. But tonight, I watched an episode of 'The Big Picture' titled 'Mutants and Masses' <http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5525-Mutants-and-Masses> and felt so puzzled by it that I felt I should say my piece on it (especially considering, and I believe I'm correct in saying this, that he has never played any of the games).

His main argument is that because we are not the creators of the art we have no right but this isn't true. Among all the arguments this one just doesn't seem to be mentioned. We also made that art too.

Unlike any other medium games allow us to BE the protagonist in the story. The story, the world unfolds around us, reacts to us, we are not observers. This is especially true with a series like Mass Effect because unlike a lot of other games the player is given CHOICE. And this is the point. It is this choice that allows us to not only shape our world, but also the story that's being told.

I'm not sure if the Anti-Change ending camp has realised but people refer to Shepard as MY Shepard. This is an important point, and what underpins the experience that Bioware was selling. It was each our own story. Bioware created the universe, but allowed us to choose which path to take and to deal with the consequences of said choices and to carry this over across games. The ending they made does not do this.

Now I'm not asking for a happy ending; that would suck. Personally I think it would go against the tone of the series and a bleak ending like the one given is narratively more interesting. The ending given however has no closure, had blasted holes in it's plot turning it to Swiss cheese, and showed no consequences for our choices. We never got to see the end of OUR story, the one that WE created with Bioware.

Now I have read the news, and know that Bioware are planning an extended version of the ending, without changing it. For me, I hope that it deals with the problems I just mentioned. But what I also hope from this is that those people who say that the fans should stop complaining (maybe in some extreme cases they may have a point), not demand anything, and except the fact that as an art form like any other we have no ownership over it, I hope that they realise what a disservice they do to the medium we all love.

Yes games can be, and is certainly art, but it is also a separate medium, and thus plays by different rules. We shouldn't be stuck behind what appears to be a pre-historic view of what art can be, it was that view could have prevented games from being recognised as such in the Supreme Court. And let's not forget that in other established forms of art there have been changes made post publishing (Blade Runner anyone?).

The passion behind this is justifiable, the series Bioware created is epic, not just for the locations, the gameplay, the characters, but because we invested in this universe like no other. We were the hero and we made the decisions. In this case, shouldn't we be able to see where this brings us? Surely not all in the same place right?

I agree with you lol!

Joccaren:

Toombs approves +4

Well written, and extremely interesting.

Scorpid:
I'm tired of Mass Effect discussions. We should instead focus on Wasteland 2. It's only got 8 days left to donate =O

I concur with tiring of the Mass Effect talk, and I'm someone who loves the series. Also, thanks for the Wasteland reminder, I need to give them my money.

OlasDAlmighty:

Sorry to have to tell you this but...

Halarious video. Although I will say that it feels more appropriate as a commentary on the Mass Effect ending than how you used it. Still, great video that I am currently stealing.

thebighead01:
-OP-

Interesting view, it probably should have been put into one of the several threads involving MovieBob. I do appreciate what you've said, but I also don't feel that it will have any sort of effect on Moviebob. He as OPINIONS, in case you didn't know.

Knobody13:

thebighead01:
-OP-

I agree with you lol!

Hey, you're not entirely new here but you have a low post count, so I'd like to welcome you to the Escapist. Just so you know, this would probably count as a "low content post" as all you're saying is that you agree with the op. It is usually better to add something or comment on something rather than just saying "hey, this sounds about right".

Also, please snip or spoiler long posts. It makes things easier to read and makes the loading times go down.

thebighead01:
*snip*

Okay then.

Why don't you make a new ending? It's your art too, and you don't seem to happy with it.

thebighead01:

See your rigid definition of art is the same definition that would have relegated games to being just that.

Please point to my definition of art in my previous post. What's that? There is none. Please don't project inferences.

The concept and definition of art of is constantly in flux.

No it's not. It's simply misunderstood, misinterpreted, and abused by lesser people. Thinking like they do makes a canvas covered in nothing but orange paint on par with The Persistence of Memory as well as a finger painting of a cat. That is dangerous thinking that removes the borders of what is art, and destroys the very concept of art itself.

Games allow a change in that definition, and Bioware seems to realise that.

No, games don't allow for a change in anything pertaining to what art is or means. They just offer a completely new level to the medium in which art can be enjoyed. The definition of what art is will never change just because a new medium arrives.

Art defined: Art is expression, it's not 100% what is shown, or what is meant, but equal parts both. It's giving the world a piece of your soul, something to think about, and something to marvel as well as despair over.
Art is not simply putting brush to canvas, or pixel to disk. Art is putting heart to the brush, meaning to the paint, and life to the canvas, no matter what items replace them, it will always be true, and that will always be the definition. The day it is different, art is dead and the world is a poorer place for it. And we already live in a sad and shitty world where dubstep creators get to call themselves artists.

thebighead01:
Wow, really some hostile people out there. I was hoping for some interesting debate on this subject, guess I'm not going to get that.

You could have found that debate in one of the DOZENS of topics EXACTLY like this one.
Don't blame them for your ignorance. This topic is sorely overdone.

LastGreatBlasphemer:
No it's not. It's simply misunderstood, misinterpreted, and abused by lesser people. *snip* That is dangerous thinking that removes the borders of what is art, and destroys the very concept of art itself.

It's dangerous thinking to wield terms like "lesser people" as an argument, period.

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