MOVIEBOB you're wrong about the Mass Effect Ending! The art is ours as well as theirs.

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thebighead01:
Discussing why MovieBob was wrong and because of the approach that Bioware took in creating the game created a sense of personalisation that perhaps should shift our perceptions of the relationship between audience and artist and how this affects our definition of art and thus how a change in the ending is perfectly possible because of that sense of personalistion gives ownship to your Shepard and...Christ haven't I said this all already?

And how does this entitle you to new ending? You still haven't explained this.

DrVornoff, I have never once used the word entitled.

I never once used the words, "Christ, when is this bullshit gonna die?" Doesn't mean I'm not thinking it.

Again you fail to understand the implicit change in the nature of the relationship between audience and artist that Bioware has created. If I haven't already I shall point you to FFHAuthor. Look for his posts, they explain it better than I ever could. Well anyway I hope you give it some thought.

Two things. First off, no. I want to hear it from you in your words.

Second, you think the only reason I don't agree with you is because I haven't thought about it? The word "arrogant" comes to mind.

thebighead01:

Thanks for proving my point Atmos Duality. Appreciate it darling :)

Then I must assume your point was "I knew there were a dozen topics, and made one solely to spite everyone". Because that's all that's been proved here, darlin'.

thebighead01:

Krion_Vark:

thebighead01:

Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences.

Choice and Consequence of the ending.
Blue: Choice: Save everything take control of the reapers. Consequence: End the cycles.
Red: Choice: Kill ALL synthetics. Consequence: EDI and the Geth both die.
Green: Choice: Synthesize synthetics with organics. Consequence: Everyone becomes a cyborg.

I think you missed the point of the ending. :P

No really though I thought the ending was well done minus it providing closure.

No, these endings would have been reached regardless of any previous choice made. That's the point. You killed Wrex in the first game: Red, blue or green ending, you saved him: red, blue or green ending. No matter what you did everyone will end up in the same place.

And as for the consequences of said endings: the plot holes in the ending create a lack of closure (such as how everyone made it out with the Normandy) not only conflict with the the 'choice' made at the end, and coupled with what I said above only negate any sense of choice and consequence that the series was based on.

In any case I'm glad you liked the ending, and that you took something good out of it. Personally I'm not against the concept behind the ending, nor the bleakness of it. It's the execution of it that I hate. For a series that was so loving crafted it feels like they spent as long to make the ending as it took to play through it.

Okay lets take a real world group of choices.

Lets say High School. Your friends invite you to go out to a party for a night. You can either accept or decline. You decline. Two of your friends then die due to one of them driving drunk.
A year later you graduate.
Your choice on going out to party plays no role in whether or not you graduate. Neither does your friends dying. Same with the ending to ME3.
Something I did notice though was as you are playing through ME3 during the dream sequences who you lose will actually come back and say Commander Shepard. Over and over. THAT is where that comes into play. It comes into play in the Psyche of Shepard. Killing one person will not change the outcome of a war that has billions fighting in it. It will however change how a few people react to that outcome.

There are small things throughout the game that change how your game is tailored to how you played. Its the fact that they play no significant role in the main story is what have you so angry. But they do have a role in the game. They have a role in how YOUR Shepard is.

thebighead01:

Krion_Vark:

thebighead01:

Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences.

Choice and Consequence of the ending.
Blue: Choice: Save everything take control of the reapers. Consequence: End the cycles.
Red: Choice: Kill ALL synthetics. Consequence: EDI and the Geth both die.
Green: Choice: Synthesize synthetics with organics. Consequence: Everyone becomes a cyborg.

I think you missed the point of the ending. :P

No really though I thought the ending was well done minus it providing closure.

No, these endings would have been reached regardless of any previous choice made. That's the point. You killed Wrex in the first game: Red, blue or green ending, you saved him: red, blue or green ending. No matter what you did everyone will end up in the same place.

And as for the consequences of said endings: the plot holes in the ending create a lack of closure (such as how everyone made it out with the Normandy) not only conflict with the the 'choice' made at the end, and coupled with what I said above only negate any sense of choice and consequence that the series was based on.

In any case I'm glad you liked the ending, and that you took something good out of it. Personally I'm not against the concept behind the ending, nor the bleakness of it. It's the execution of it that I hate. For a series that was so loving crafted it feels like they spent as long to make the ending as it took to play through it.

I know this isn't adding much to the argument, but I will have to state that some of the options are either not available or change based on war assets you have(though not greatly). For example:

You know, entertainment industry, there's a lesson to be learned in all this.

Fans are volatile things. If you're going to make something that becomes very popular, make sure you make it clear to your fans who is in charge and who owns what. Otherwise the entitlement will go on for months.

I don't really agree with your stance, however I will say this: You can argue that Mass Effect is "our" art too under very loose definitions of "our" but even if you accept this premise, the amount of blood, sweat, and tears that "we" (quoted because of my stance on the "our" part) have put into the art are absolutely minuscule compared to the actual creators at BioWare. So there still are no grounds to really claim and significant ownership.

Dr Jones:

thebighead01:

Nope, I simply said that I felt this particular argument was being made or heard because it is getting swallowed up with the fan rage and demands for a happy ending and all that. My argument was based more on the examination of said rage and change in relationship between audience and artist. To be fair I am right. It's not being looked at, even though it should be. Games are art, but a relatively new form of art and with that comes changes to that relationship. If you can find me any thread/threads looking into that, and compare it to all the other fan rage ME endings then please show me. I welcome it.

Then the thread should be called "A spectators view: Mass Effect 3 fans and rage", or "Analysis of the Mass Effect 3 ragefandom" or even "Mass Effect 3, and are video games really art?", but tbh, this thread has already been made. Your post and opinions is very much like Jim Sterling's, you could post it in response to his video, where he basically says the same (games are art, can be changed, yadda yadda).

Hmm, fair enough. I accept what you say here. The title was made in the heat of my hot nerd rage that came after seeing MovieBob's video (think I could make an erotic novel with those words).

Even though you were given the illusion of choice by every single thing you could do the game was programed and cast in iron before you even came near it. If that weren't the case you'd be able to choose your own words for "your Shepard" to say and the game would actually react to it. It does end up have a unique feel to you and maybe people around you but in the end its really more similar to a pick your own adventure book that has multiple paths that lead to the ending rather than one straight path and a lot of dead ends.

Del-Toro:

thebighead01:

Del-Toro:

Wrong. None of that aspect of the game is unprecedented. Nothing about the game itself changes drastically based on your choices, instead, all that changes is the specific combination you see of pre-made story points the developers put into the game. Literature had something like this before the videogame as we know it today, it was called the Choose Your Own Adventure novel. Like in Mass Effect, at certain points in the story the reader would be offered a choice, which ostensibly was to affect the flow of the story and maybe even the conclusion, just like in the Mass Effect games but, obviously, less advanced. The reader got an experience based on their calls and often told from their perspective, but the legwork had been done for them. Each ending and twist was the author's vision, laid out for the reader for them to craft an experience. Nonetheless, the art itself was not the reader's, it was the author's. The writer of a CYOA had as much claim to their work as Dickens had to his, completely regardless of the increased interactivity. That's all Mass Effect is. If, say, Half Life is a standard novel, Mass Effect is a CYOA that got lazy at the end, and the user has no claim on the art itself.

Wrong. You don't have interactivity with a book. That's where you analogy fails. This was the point I was trying to make. Games can be art, but not in the same context as other mediums because it works in different ways. Games allow interaction, freedom of movement (relatively speaking), customisation, etc, that creates a personalisation effect not seen in any other medium. There is no book that can do this.

I'd say my analogy actually holds up pretty well. The point I think you missed is that any choice you have, and what those choices are, is all within the framework and from among the selection that was made by the developers, or author, as the case may be. That doesn't change because you get to pick which chest high wall you shoot from behind or can make your armour hot pink. That's why, of a game like Mass Effect, we say that we "get" an ending rather than "create" or "make" one because the creation and making was done by someone else and the ending you see is based on what you chose of the choices offered to you. You can't claim any ownership on what the selections were and what they resulted in because you had no hand in their creation. The guy who arranges the pictures in an art gallery can't claim an artistic credit on the paintings thus displayed. If you make a mix tape, then unless you personally were in the recording studio with a tamborine or other instrument playing then you can't claim to have helped make the music, and if you don't have a hand in crafting a videogame (programming, designing, I mean,that doesn't include suggestions and feedback) then you can't lay claim on the art itself.

I'm interested to know why do you not included suggestions, feedback, forum discussons, etc as part of the video game making process. This greatly affected the ME series.

RaikuFA:

In other words, TC just wants attention.

I say this should be locked.

You didn't see all the replies to those posts did you RaikuFA? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and I'll just include it here. And yes I love the attention, get hot with it. It's the only way I can do the Mrs -.-

Dr Jones:

thebighead01:

Dr Jones:

You act as if your opinion deserves a thread, as if your opinion is something special, and it deserves an audience more than other people's opinions, which is a bit arrogant.
Every person who has made another Mass Effect 3 ending thread, is just another schmuck like you, who thinks their opinion is all-high and mighty, whereas others are just common rubble saying "Bioware bad!", whereas your opinion is simply so immaculate that it deserves it's own thread.
It's arrogant, what you are doing.

Personal attacks like 'schmuck' aren't very becoming, and does go to show that maybe some opinions are more important than others after all. And so what if I wanted to make my own thread. I'm pretty happy with it. I got say my piece and I've received more replies for it than I know what to do with. I mean, you're replying to them too aren't you? I still don't see what your point is. If no one ever thought they point was important they would never say anything.

It is incredibly arrogant to assume, that your opinion is worth more than others'. My point is that you're arrogant for thinking your opinion is worth more than others. And yes i am replying to your posts, but for all the wrong reasons. I'm not argumenting against or with you, about what your opinion is about, rather, i'm saying your are incredibly arrogant for making a thread like that, and even now, saying that some opinions are worth more than others'.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

thebighead01:

Dr Jones:

thebighead01:

Nope, I simply said that I felt this particular argument was being made or heard because it is getting swallowed up with the fan rage and demands for a happy ending and all that. My argument was based more on the examination of said rage and change in relationship between audience and artist. To be fair I am right. It's not being looked at, even though it should be. Games are art, but a relatively new form of art and with that comes changes to that relationship. If you can find me any thread/threads looking into that, and compare it to all the other fan rage ME endings then please show me. I welcome it.

Then the thread should be called "A spectators view: Mass Effect 3 fans and rage", or "Analysis of the Mass Effect 3 ragefandom" or even "Mass Effect 3, and are video games really art?", but tbh, this thread has already been made. Your post and opinions is very much like Jim Sterling's, you could post it in response to his video, where he basically says the same (games are art, can be changed, yadda yadda).

Hmm, fair enough. I accept what you say here. The title was made in the heat of my hot nerd rage that came after seeing MovieBob's video (think I could make an erotic novel with those words).

CriticKitten:
Why won't this topic just end?

You've got Bioware releasing an Extended Cut DLC for free to help explain the ending (which is DLC that they already planned to release anyways), but they've already essentially said they will NOT be changing their existing endings, only clarifying them.

So why do these topics continue to persist? The "Take Back Mass Effect" movement has failed. You're not getting new endings, only clarification that was already planned from the start based on Tweets and info from Bioware employees. So why can't we just bury this topic already? Continuing to bemoan the fact that Bioware won't cave to your unreasonable demands to "change the ending or else" is only going to weaken your stance in the eyes of other gamers as it continues. Heck, judging from this thread, most of us are already sick of hearing it. How bad do you think it'll get when you're still ranting and raving about this in June or July? You're going to rapidly lose support from the non-ME-playing gamer community (which, contrary to your belief, is actually the majority) if you don't just settle down and wait for the DLC.

The only time-proven way to get a company to do what you want is to stop buying their products, and yet many of your fanbase have already admitted they've even pay for new DLC to change the endings, proving that they just don't get it. Don't like the fact that Bio won't change the ending? That's fine, but that's the way it is. You'll just have to tolerate it, or if you have the stomach for it, do what any sensible person would do and stop giving them your money.

Ahh CriticKitten, you fail to live by your cute name. You haven't actually read the thread have you. I haven't been demanding for a new ending, in fact I've even said I support what Bioware is doing with the Extended Ending DLC because I hope it leave their creative integrity intact while offering what players needed most: closure.

And the stop buy their products argument again. You can't know the ending of the game without first buying and playing it through. You can only adjust your purchasing decisions after the fact. And as for the fan base buying more DLC...last time I check I weren't their leader so I can't really control that. Not sure if I've seen anyone anyway say they will keep buying any DLC that Bioware release but whatever.

rhizhim:
i enjoyed eating a big mac.
since i brought and therefore helped macdonald's big mac to become popular,
i have the right to hold a share on mcdonalds stock market.

image
are you serious?

That...that wasn't my point at all. It was about art and the relationship between audience and artist having changed because of what Bioware set up to do within the medium they chose. You think a Big Mac is art? Well guess I shouldn't judge art is subjective after all. I admire your courage in your choice rhizhim.

Rascalian:
i wasn't planning on posting anything to to this thread because of the poor, proverbial horse being beaten to death, but having read all three pages of this thread i have decided to drop my two cents into the fountain.

i have played all three games, completed all the DLC and grew to love the series. was i happy with the ending? in all honesty...yes, because prior to the ending rolling out before my bloodshot eyes, i was still reeling from the endings of character arcs that took place way before the actual ending.

my older brother was doing what a surprising amount of people were doing by marathoning the first two games in order to be ready for the 3rd game. he called me one night during his time with the first game to tell me that Wrex had just been shot and killed by Ashley. i could tell by his voice that he was actually shocked and he asked me if he should reload and do it differently. i initially wanted to tell him yes because of Wrex's role in the second game but i didn't because it would insure him of a totally different experience than mine.

the first time i spoke with Mordin in ME2, i didn't like him at all...so cold and calculated, but by the time his story arc ended in ME3, he was one of my favorite characters and i will openly admit that tears welled up in my eyes when he...did what he did (in the off chance that someone who hasn't played the games and wants to still play them is reading through this thread, i won't spoil it) and these are just two examples of the differences the player can experience in the same games.

my point is, i didn't mind the ending because the journey itself was amazing. Bioware said that choices made would change the game universe and they delivered. i became emotionally invested in what happened to squadmates (except Jack...never liked her) and i was rocked by more than a couple of their demises/destinies/what-have-you. very few games have ever accomplished this, in my quarter century of gaming. i recognize this and am very thankful for this series. it is because of this that i am not one of the many crying foul on Bioware. call me a fanboy if you must, but seeing as how almost all the ME fanboys (and fangirls) are acting like they just had the dog shot while someone urinated in their Cheerios, i would ask not to be lumped in with them.

thanks for reading. i am now going to get on with my life, knowing that no matter what happens, i played three amazing games.

I appreciate your post Rascalian and as a fellow fan can appreciate even further where your coming from. A lot of the people who reply haven't played the games (MovieBob hasn't, which was why I was so puzzled when he weighed in on the argument).

But to your last point I will simply say this; why can't the journey and the destination be just as important? Why should it always be a choice between the two?

By the way, loved Mordin when I first met him, and how can you not like Jack? :)

DrVornoff:

thebighead01:
Discussing why MovieBob was wrong and because of the approach that Bioware took in creating the game created a sense of personalisation that perhaps should shift our perceptions of the relationship between audience and artist and how this affects our definition of art and thus how a change in the ending is perfectly possible because of that sense of personalistion gives ownship to your Shepard and...Christ haven't I said this all already?

And how does this entitle you to new ending? You still haven't explained this.

DrVornoff, I have never once used the word entitled.

I never once used the words, "Christ, when is this bullshit gonna die?" Doesn't mean I'm not thinking it.

Wow, DrVornoff, shouldn't you be using your psychic powers to fight crime or perform in Vegas? I told you to find anytime I have used the word entitled. Not once have I said that. You failed and so infer that I must thinking it? Shame on you Doctor. I would have written a very stern letter to have you stricken off as a Doctor if it weren't for the fact that I like you so much.

DrVornoff:

thebighead01:
Again you fail to understand the implicit change in the nature of the relationship between audience and artist that Bioware has created. If I haven't already I shall point you to FFHAuthor. Look for his posts, they explain it better than I ever could. Well anyway I hope you give it some thought.

Two things. First off, no. I want to hear it from you in your words.

Second, you think the only reason I don't agree with you is because I haven't thought about it? The word "arrogant" comes to mind.

Yep, arrogant, stubborn, domineering, handsome, all words that have been used to describe me.

I have explained it. I only pointed to FFHAuthor's posts because he was able to say it a lot more eloquently and go even deeper than I. He believed that the underlying shift the relationship between audience and artist that has caused this commotion had to do with the relationship between the narrative made by the Creator and the narrative created by the mechanics. His view was behind the games themselves as a medium, mine was slightly more audience focused, in terms of the experience received by the player, created by Bioware that because of the way the games were made and how the medium is created a much closer relationship between artist and audience, on in which we'll see a lot more of in the future as the medium develops and becomes more immersive.

thebighead01:

rhizhim:
i enjoyed eating a big mac.
since i brought and therefore helped macdonald's big mac to become popular,
i have the right to hold a share on mcdonalds stock market.

image
are you serious?

That...that wasn't my point at all. It was about art and the relationship between audience and artist having changed because of what Bioware set up to do within the medium they chose. You think a Big Mac is art? Well guess I shouldn't judge art is subjective after all. I admire your courage in your choice rhizhim.

big mac is not really art. but then again everything can be art and i bet if i recreated a big mac as a 'sculpture' and slap a known name on it, people would hunger to see it.

you fail to see one important thing.

the mass effect francise is more of a product. no matter how much artistic things you put in there it will always be a product.

thats the point.
this game or story was created to sell.
and they would only change it if they could sell it faster (a thing that artists like to do)

and just to be clear :

even if your statement tries to go all dali on us

i still do not see how much the 'audience' has had influence on the mass effect series.

what did they do?:

-the audience told bioware that this and that was tedious.
did they use some ideas of their fans to make it less tedious?
no, they didn't. they just removed it or simplyfied it (mako and resources).

- the audience created some concept art.
did they use concept art from their fans or even used some as basis for parts of their product?
no, they didn't. we would had a better looking tali that does not contradict their own lore, instead we have another smurf alien without the suit that had been established as 'important'.

the only thing the audience did was to say 'i like where this is going, continue please' with paying for the product.

thats all. you gave them money to continue with the story with the risk that it could go horribly, horribly wrong. and it could not get worse, could it? :D

i believe some people in this thread may be misinterpreting feedback as entitlement. there is nothing wrong with telling bioware or E.A that you dislike the ending for ME 3 and think it should different or it should be changed that is just feedback which can be very useful for development of anything.

notice moviebob didn't actually like but was a bit more understanding of the whole H.E.A.T movement for the green lantern (which is very similar to whats going on here) and got what he considered a good comic due to fan outrage at the story.

For my opinions with the new extended cut DLC that should be free (which i think it is but i don't know for sure) if its just a new ending, if it has more gameplay and new mission etc only then can they charge us for it like fallout 3's broken steel. anyway my feedback would be that should try not to disprove the indoctrination theory in the new DLC ending cause i think that is an awesome fan made interpretation of ME 3 ending (weather bioware intended that or not). I recommend everyone who thought that ME 3 ending was a bit disappointing to check it out there is some good videos on youtube that explains it.

so yeah if they disprove the indoctrination theory in the new dlc ending bioware better replace it with something awesome or i'm gonna be really disappointed with them.

again that is just feedback, if i wrote that in to bioware it's better for them to know what their fans think of bioware's products. because if they do things with the story that people are unhappy with then less people will buy their games in the future which is worst-case scenario for bioware.

madwarper:
Personally, I thought ME2 was shit. So, I've already cut ties to the franchise and have no real vested interest in this whole ME3 boondoggle.

However, unless you are actually part of the team that wrote ME3's story, you have absolutely ZERO say in the direction that they took the game.

If you think the ending was shit, then think it's shit. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think it deserved better, then think it deserved better. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think you're entitled to have them rewrite it, then you're Wrong.

By purchasing the game, you only got the right to play the game they made. Nothing more.

I still don't get how people like you are getting this so wrong. People like the OP and myself do not feel that we have a right to have the game rewritten. We do, however have a right to tell Bioware what we thought about the game they made for us, our community and others like it. What they choose to do is their business, but we should be able to talk about personally wanting a better ending (which is not us claiming we have a right to one) without the word "entitled" being flung around ambiguously, like it seems to every time anyone even mentions ME3.

rhizhim:

big mac is not really art. but then again everything can be art and i bet if i recreated a big mac as a 'sculpture' and slap a known name on it, people would hunger to see it.

you fail to see one important thing.

the mass effect francise is more of a product. no matter how much artistic things you put in there it will always be a product.

thats the point.
this game or story was created to sell.
and they would only change it if they could sell it faster (a thing that artists like to do)

and just to be clear :

even if your statement tries to go all dali on us

i still do not see how much the 'audience' has had influence on the mass effect series.

what did they do?:

-the audience told bioware that this and that was tedious.
did they use some ideas of their fans to make it less tedious?
no, they didn't. they just removed it or simplyfied it (mako and resources).

- the audience created some concept art.
did they use concept art from their fans or even used some as basis for parts of their product?
no, they didn't. we would had a better looking tali that does not contradict their own lore, instead we have another smurf alien without the suit that had been established as 'important'.

the only thing the audience did was to say 'i like where this is going, continue please' with paying for the product.

thats all. you gave them money to continue with the story with the risk that it could go horribly, horribly wrong. and it could not get worse, could it? :D

I think I understand where you coming from rhizhim. If I've got that right you believe that the ME series is just a product and thus should be treated as such. Fair point. I don't agree with you but I respect where you're coming from.

Unfortunately living in a capitalist world means that in order to create art you need money. Not matter how many paintings an artist makes eventually he will need to sell some to continue making it. Does his art then become a product and cease being art? I don't agree. But if I'm right you believe that they created their art with the sole intention of creating a product? Hmmm maybe. Don't know if it diminishes it as art either. Nice quote by the way rhizhim.

Wrong is kind of misleading in these discussions, considering this is all heavily based on opinion and this issue isn't as simple as it looks. But I do understand that you wished to convey your anger OP.

People need to stop throwing around the Mona Lisa comparison. It's erroneous.

Bioware created a culture with Mass Effect, that much is certain, and because of that culture it flourished and became popular. The question that separates everybody is: "Do the fans have a stake in this?"

Those that say yes, want the ending "that was promised." But what was promised? People interpreted the coverage of Mass Effect differently from when the first game was announced to the weeks leading up to the third game's release.

Those that say no, want the rights of the creator respected, but does this argument even have merit in a world were publishers can manhandle their way through the creative process?

Ricky 49:
i believe some people in this thread may be misinterpreting feedback as entitlement. there is nothing wrong with telling bioware or E.A that you dislike the ending for ME 3 and think it should different or it should be changed that is just feedback which can be very useful for development of anything.

notice moviebob didn't actually like but was a bit more understanding of the whole H.E.A.T movement for the green lantern (which is very similar to whats going on here) and got what he considered a good comic due to fan outrage at the story.

For my opinions with the new extended cut DLC that should be free (which i think it is but i don't know for sure) if its just a new ending, if it has more gameplay and new mission etc only then can they charge us for it like fallout 3's broken steel. anyway my feedback would be that should try not to disprove the indoctrination theory in the new DLC ending cause i think that is an awesome fan made interpretation of ME 3 ending (weather bioware intended that or not). I recommend everyone who thought that ME 3 ending was a bit disappointing to check it out there is some good videos on youtube that explains it.

so yeah if they disprove the indoctrination theory in the new dlc ending bioware better replace it with something awesome or i'm gonna be really disappointed with them.

again that is just feedback, if i wrote that in to bioware it's better for them to know what their fans think of bioware's products. because if they do things with the story that people are unhappy with then less people will buy their games in the future which is worst-case scenario for bioware.

You bring up some interesting points Ricky 49. Guess you were blown away by that theory too right. I mean if it is true, credit where credit is due. The only trouble that I have with it is that if you war readiness rating is too low the only option you have is to blow everything up. Surely controlling the reapers would be the first choice right?

And yes the DLC will be free. They have said they are only expanding on the endings which my very well blow away the indoctrination theory.

Zagzag:

madwarper:
Personally, I thought ME2 was shit. So, I've already cut ties to the franchise and have no real vested interest in this whole ME3 boondoggle.

However, unless you are actually part of the team that wrote ME3's story, you have absolutely ZERO say in the direction that they took the game.

If you think the ending was shit, then think it's shit. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think it deserved better, then think it deserved better. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you think you're entitled to have them rewrite it, then you're Wrong.

By purchasing the game, you only got the right to play the game they made. Nothing more.

I still don't get how people like you are getting this so wrong. People like the OP and myself do not feel that we have a right to have the game rewritten. We do, however have a right to tell Bioware what we thought about the game they made for us, our community and others like it. What they choose to do is their business, but we should be able to talk about personally wanting a better ending (which is not us claiming we have a right to one) without the word "entitled" being flung around ambiguously, like it seems to every time anyone even mentions ME3.

This is the trouble I've had Zigzag. Not once have I used the word entitled I don't believe we are, I do believe we some stake in the series however, but this does not translate into entitlement. The problem with a lot of people on this thread it seems is that they think it's simply our fault for buying the game and that to complain about something that was not delivered when promised is just wrong. Tell me how can you find out about the ending of game without buying it thus and not ruining your experience of it in the process. Makes no sense to me Zigzag.

Zagzag:
People like the OP and myself do not feel that we have a right to have the game rewritten.

Oh, Really?

but we should be able to talk about personally wanting a better ending

So, riddle me this... Why exactly do you think you deserve a "better" ending? Because, you feel entitled to one? Get over yourself.

The arguments on both sides have become hyperbolic and extreme.

Is the game art? Maybe, maybe not, but that's not really important. What's important is that the game is a product that is marketed and sold to consumers. There's nothing wrong with the consumers demanding that the creator/artist/company change the product if they aren't satisfied.

The consumers can explain to the artist/company that they will be losing customers and profit if they do not change the product to meet certain standards. If the artist/company doesn't want to suffer those consequences then they should change the product. If on the other hand they're willing to take that risk and are not going to change the product, the consumer can then ask for a refund (whether or not they are entitled to it can be debated), stop buying the artist/company's products, and tell their friends and family not to support that particular artist/company. The consumer cannot force the artist/company to change their product nor can they harass or threaten to take illegal actions against the artist/company.

Ham Blitz:

I know this isn't adding much to the argument, but I will have to state that some of the options are either not available or change based on war assets you have(though not greatly). For example:

I see where you're coming from Ham Blitz I think with this ending you may have slightly less plot holes than the others, but like the others it still lacks any sense of closure which is the problem with them all.

madwarper:

Zagzag:
People like the OP and myself do not feel that we have a right to have the game rewritten.

Oh, Really?

but we should be able to talk about personally wanting a better ending

So, riddle me this... Why exactly do you think you deserve a "better" ending? Because, you feel entitled to one? Get over yourself.

Listen, madwarper, look through the thread, points been made time and again that no one here, including myself feel entitled to anything, that word hasn't been used once. You really need slow down and breath a bit cupcake cause I think all this rage makes you miss these things. I worry about you madwarper, I really do :(

Bhaalspawn:
You know, entertainment industry, there's a lesson to be learned in all this.

Fans are volatile things. If you're going to make something that becomes very popular, make sure you make it clear to your fans who is in charge and who owns what. Otherwise the entitlement will go on for months.

Or in Yahtzee's words: If your going to make something incredibly good that becomes incredibly good make sure that becomes frighteningly popular, make sure its the last thing you ever make in your entire life. Because otherwise you get to spend the rest of your life under the weight of high expectations and bricks..
(Your avatar made e thin of this)

I gotta say.. I have a good friend who used to work for EA and she still has friends throughout bioware, and by the gods...She won't even discuss this anymore.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.. You don't like it big deal, feel free to submit to bioware, and even EA if you wish, but my god then let it go, its a god damn game.. Something extensively created for amusement. This level of bile on both ends, filing for litigation, the gigantic temper tantrum such as the whole cupcake thing.. Is it really worth it at the end of the night? For a little bit of gratification that would come? Come a couple months from now....Hell I give it 6 months if that.. and that's probably being generous, no one will talk of this anymore, So why the damn fuss? Bioware didn't live up to your expectations, Big deal unfortunately disappointment happens.

As for their promises and what not, Whether they did or didn't is a matter of semantics and perspective, Personally i found the single player to be challenging and rewarding (Screw you 6 am banshee section on insane... YOU WILL NOT BEAT ME) But at the end of the night time will make it forgotten an obsolete relic of a bigone age... So again i'm left wondering, what's the big deal?

Is a single product created for amusement really worth this much venom towards anyone? Defending Bioware or attacking,I want you to tell me how this is worth it?

madwarper:
snip

Expressing want and demanding entitlement are two different things. You are putting words in Zagzag's mouth, he clearly says it is NOT equivalent to claiming the right to a new ending (and "not have a right to" is a sentence synonym for "to not entitle") .

My tip on how to not look entitled:

Don't call someone else's art yours.

Did you do any of the writing, modeling, programming, or animating? No, you didn't, so don't say that any part of the game is yours. You're the consumer, your place in this is to give them money and then tell them how much you liked it or let them know where their quality control failed.

thebighead01:
-snip

Going to sum up my thoughts briefly and preface it with this. I haven't played it, nor have I played any of them, I do read a lot though.

Quite simply you are wrong. My reasoning is similar to others really. You may love the game and its series, you may of even given input into the games creation but you did not create the game.

Do you DESERVE a better ending? Yes..yes you do, because the current ending I feel isnt good enough and the fan reception says that.

Are you ENTITLED to a better ending? No.

You may have a vested interested, and a personal connection to the property but that does not change the fact you did not in any way create it. If a painter takes inspiration from other artists those other artists did no create his painting. They do not have any say on whether it should be changed. Around now you immediately say "but its my shephard..I have have a vested.." etc etc.

They created a sandbox for you. You can offer all the suggestions in the world, they can replace the sand with gravel and even if you played in it all your life and have fond memories of it, it is not your sandbox.

They made it, they designed it, they created every aspect of that game. It is theres and not yours. And if your going to bring up the "they promised us" bit. No they did not, I have seen the forum posts. Yes it sucks that what they said didnt happen. Are they in any way legally bound to what one employee said, probably in an unofficial address and possibly months or years away from release. No.

thebighead01:
Wow, DrVornoff, shouldn't you be using your psychic powers to fight crime or perform in Vegas?

Are you trying to blow my cover.

I told you to find anytime I have used the word entitled. Not once have I said that. You failed and so infer that I must thinking it? Shame on you Doctor. I would have written a very stern letter to have you stricken off as a Doctor if it weren't for the fact that I like you so much.

Flattery will get you nowhere. You said Bob was wrong for saying we are not entitled to a new ending and that you had an equal stake in the product/art/whatever as the developers because of your implicit roleplaying experiences. What conclusion was I supposed to draw? Really, tell me.

I have explained it. I only pointed to FFHAuthor's posts because he was able to say it a lot more eloquently and go even deeper than I. He believed that the underlying shift the relationship between audience and artist that has caused this commotion had to do with the relationship between the narrative made by the Creator and the narrative created by the mechanics. His view was behind the games themselves as a medium, mine was slightly more audience focused, in terms of the experience received by the player, created by Bioware that because of the way the games were made and how the medium is created a much closer relationship between artist and audience, on in which we'll see a lot more of in the future as the medium develops and becomes more immersive.

What does this translate to in practice?

Issues concerning who is the creator of a game, etc., are all irrelevant because the problem with this game is that C&Cs do not significantly affect the ending. It doesn't matter who makes the endings or who likes the endings; as long as this requirement isn't followed--and it has to given an adventure game with RPG elements and following to earlier games--then the problem remains.

thebighead01:
You bring up some interesting points Ricky 49. Guess you were blown away by that theory too right. I mean if it is true, credit where credit is due. The only trouble that I have with it is that if you war readiness rating is too low the only option you have is to blow everything up. Surely controlling the reapers would be the first choice right?

yeah i'll admit i can't really explain that with certainty. one attempt i guess is that Shepard somehow lacked the will to fight the reapers as he/she wasn't confident enough he/she could beat them a bit like the squadmates in ME 2 if you didn't do their sidequests. so the destroy ending in that case would be the destruction of Shepard's hope (as the other ending are images of hope)and mind as his/her mind would rather die then give in to the reapers. i know that's not terribly convincing, however...

what i will say is that one of the main reasons the indoctrination theory is so awesome is because its so subtle. myself and i expect most players could have played right passed it never would of guessed what was really going on. this would make the ME 3 a really unique game if players could believe they finished the game without actually finishing it. also to understand it you need to study the whole mass effect series with the attention to detail you would need for a good novel or film which makes the ME series a good example for the games are art augment. also i would say the theory works better and makes more sense than if you took the ending on face value and has some evidence that really can't be ignored.

thebighead01:
Ahh CriticKitten, you fail to live by your cute name. You haven't actually read the thread have you. I haven't been demanding for a new ending, in fact I've even said I support what Bioware is doing with the Extended Ending DLC because I hope it leave their creative integrity intact while offering what players needed most: closure.

And the stop buy their products argument again. You can't know the ending of the game without first buying and playing it through. You can only adjust your purchasing decisions after the fact. And as for the fan base buying more DLC...last time I check I weren't their leader so I can't really control that. Not sure if I've seen anyone anyway say they will keep buying any DLC that Bioware release but whatever.

Not sure I really care what you said specifically any more. This is just the umpteen-millionth thread complaining about "deserving an ending that fits" and "games are art" and BLAH BLAH BLAH, ENOUGH. Those of us who haven't played the game have long since reached the point where we've stopped caring about your "plight". In fact, I reached that point around the time that internet voters decided that the company responsible for causing the global economic collapse of the last several years is somehow not as bad as the company that botched the ending of a video game (looking at you, Consumerist voters).

Who cares if games are art or not? The fact is this: they sold you a product, you bought it and didn't like it. Guess what? Oh well. Life goes on.

Seriously, Bioware has come out and said that the Extended Cut DLC is all you're gonna get. So can we drop the subject already? The war is OVER, and those in favor of changing the ending have lost. Entirely. It doesn't matter if you think they should change the ending, or if you think players deserve the right to change the ending because "games r art", or what your stance is. Bioware has made their decision and you're going to have to live with it.

As to the "well I haven't seen anyone say that", we can argue hypotheticals and he-said-she-said all day, but the fact remains that plenty of people will still buy ME3 DLC anyways, proving that EA can get away with just about anything they feel like. If you're truly offended by the ending, do everyone a favor and stop complaining about it. There's only one way you're going to get them to stop screwing you over, and it involves refraining from purchase of their product. Everything else, as shown by the abject failure of "Take Back Mass Effect", is doomed to fail miserably. EA doesn't give a shit if you raise an army of people and sign a petition and whine really loudly, they're only going to start caring if you stop paying them.

FFHAuthor:

I personally feel that if we strive to call games art, then we MUST call all games art, and if we call all games art then we need to define games and define what sets games apart from other forms of art. That defining characteristic is the mechanics, and the problem that most members of the games journalism industry haven't picked up yet (other than Extra Credits and they've missed some of their own statements when it comes to the ME3 ending), is that mechanics can tell a story that the creator doesn't intend. A game with a excellent and deep plot that fashions itself towards a particular goal can be totally undone by the actions that a player takes through the games mechanics.

My dissatisfaction with the ME3 ending has always been that the plot of the game and the story being told DOES lead up to a particular ending, one of total sacrifice and loss, but of final triumph. That ending is reached and it DOES work for the story because in retrospect the story does work towards it, foreshadow it and generally build up to it...but the mechanics of the game allow for a different interpretation of it.

What do I mean? Out of the numerous people who I've asked who say they enjoy the endings, only ONE person said they saved everyone in ME2, saved Wrex, and only lost people when it was unavoidable. Overwhelmingly, the people who lost characters on the suicide mission, lost them in ME3 and lost Wrex in ME1 felt that the tone of the game led to an ending of loss. On the inverse, the players I've spoken to who do not like the Mass Effect 3 ending went out of their way to save and resolve issues. They went through the suicide mission without loss, they made peace between Geth and Quarian, they talked down Saren, they saved Wrex and the Krogan AND made the Krogan more galactically friendly.

The Story tells us one thing, while the Mechanics of the game lead us to a different interpretation of the story one that isn't intended. If you establish in your mechanics that it is possible to approach unreasonable or untenable conflicts and resolve them rather than ascribe to the options that are simply 'there' don't be surprised when your players are discontent with having to chose between options that are presented without any ability to realign the situation. If your mechanics establish that a mission that will almost certainly result in the deaths of you and your teammates can be survived without a single casualty do not be surprised when your players express surprise that they're in a situation that can't be overcome.

That's something that I don't think has really come up in gaming before because a game like Mass Effect 3 has never come out before. ME3 is truly a watershed in gaming, it gives us an experience that no other form of media has every created, and it is a form of Art, but in it's creation, we can see what can go wrong with our art-form. ME3 was an excellent attempt at creating something that shows how Games are an art in their own right not simply art as taken from other forms (graphics, audio, story).

I really had to take some time absorb your point because it's a very poignant one. I was one of those who went out of their way to save everyone I could in the first game and for the most part succeeding. That sense of lose for me therefore only really begins at the start of ME3. There was that running theme of loss, of battling monumental odds and the very real possibility of losing people. So to have been given a set of options that you couldn't reject, say no, and that we'll fight the Reapers till the bitter end did feel really restrictive.

However, given the tone of the 3rd game I understand where Bioware was coming from with this.
As I've said before I'm actually happy with a bleak ending. The entire series felt quite dark and to have had a happy Return of the Jedi ending would have been grating. I enjoy the sense of victory but at great cost that the ending brings. However you are right; that restriction those grate with my experience with the rest of the franchise.

Ultimately I would have accepted the ending if it weren't for the plot holes and lack of closure. Guess we just need to see what happens to everyone, good or bad, just need to see it.

I do agree with you in what Bioware has achieved with this series has been monumental. When I first played ME1 I finished that game thinking to myself, yes, we're here, we are at the point where games can tell amazing stories that harness the power of immersion that we all know them to be capable of. ME is my favourite series of all time, hell my favourite sci-fi of all time.

Ricky 49:

thebighead01:
You bring up some interesting points Ricky 49. Guess you were blown away by that theory too right. I mean if it is true, credit where credit is due. The only trouble that I have with it is that if you war readiness rating is too low the only option you have is to blow everything up. Surely controlling the reapers would be the first choice right?

yeah i'll admit i can't really explain that with certainty. one attempt i guess is that Shepard somehow lacked the will to fight the reapers as he/she wasn't confident enough he/she could beat them a bit like the squadmates in ME 2 if you didn't do their sidequests. so the destroy ending in that case would be the destruction of Shepard's hope (as the other ending are images of hope)and mind as his/her mind would rather die then give in to the reapers. i know that's not terribly convincing, however...

what i will say is that one of the main reasons the indoctrination theory is so awesome is because its so subtle. myself and i expect most players could have played right passed it never would of guessed what was really going on. this would make the ME 3 a really unique game if players could believe they finished the game without actually finishing it. also to understand it you need to study the whole mass effect series with the attention to detail you would need for a good novel or film which makes the ME series a good example for the games are art augment. also i would say the theory works better and makes more sense than if you took the ending on face value and has some evidence that really can't be ignored.

I agree. If Bioware really did have the balls to pull that off I would just be throwing money at them demand more. I remember noticing little things like how no one helped the kid up on the shuttle, but these were tiny thoughts that came and went, ultimately ignored. Certainly wouldn't have anticipated that. And considering my choice (synthesis) and hear about the theory my heart sank at the thought I my have chosen wrong and given in to the Reapers :/. But then I just thought how awesome it would be if it does turn out to be true.

madwarper:

Zagzag:
People like the OP and myself do not feel that we have a right to have the game rewritten.

Oh, Really?

but we should be able to talk about personally wanting a better ending

So, riddle me this... Why exactly do you think you deserve a "better" ending? Because, you feel entitled to one? Get over yourself.

My entire post was supposed to be an attempt to say that wanting something is entirely different to being entitled to it. I was disappointed by the ending, and personally want Bioware to change it. However I do not feel that I have a right to this at all.

I can see how easy it is to get this confused, and I suspect that this confusion has caused about 50% of the furore surrounding this entire issue, and I apologies if I have just made things worse.

What I'm basically trying to say is: If I see something in a shop window and want it, this does not mean I feel I have a right to own it. It merely means I would like to own such an object, even if this will clearly never happen. I definitely don't think the word I would use to describe my feelings on this hypothetical object is

madwarper:
deserve

I am pretty much speaking hypothetically. The fact that I want something does not mean I should automatically get it, and I realise this. When I say we should be able to personally want a better ending, it is in the same vein as being able to want to be able to fly. It is something I can fantasise about being able to do, and believe that perhaps things would be better if it were so, but in no way do I actually expect this to happen. Nor should it.

Again, I'm sorry that my original post was ambiguous enough that you have misinterpreted it in this way.

LastGreatBlasphemer:
Wrong.
The art is Bioware's, the experience and interpretation is yours. You created nothing, you expressed nothing, you merely observed, guided, and interpreted.
You had no part of the creative process, you had no input as to how the game was made or any investment therein.
You come in when it is presented to you. You experience it. That is all you do. You are not the artist.

after reading that text wall of bitching and moaning and then seeing your post i just though to myself "fuck yea" so thanks brah.

thebighead01:
Wow, really some hostile people out there. I was hoping for some interesting debate on this subject, guess I'm not going to get that.

But firstly, just lol. You lot must be the type of consumers corporations get wet dreams over. Me, I'm of the mind that if you work hard for your money, and use said money for a product or service, and don't get what was promised or delivered you have the right to complain and demand for a refund or what was promised. Multiple endings was promised, and was not delivered. Simple as that. If you're of the mind that you should never complain when you don't get what you paid for, well, you have my sympathies. Guess you must have been screwed many a time to make you this cynical.

In any case

mad825:

LastGreatBlasphemer:

You had no part of the creative process, you had no input as to how the game was made or any investment therein.

Other than providing feedback and suggestions.

Thanks mad825, good point, many of the games mechanics, hell, even parts of the story have been shaped by the fans. Some of these ideas would have made it into the game simply because the developers didn't think about it.

LastGreatBlasphemer:
Wrong.
The art is Bioware's, the experience and interpretation is yours. You created nothing, you expressed nothing, you merely observed, guided, and interpreted.
You had no part of the creative process, you had no input as to how the game was made or any investment therein.
You come in when it is presented to you. You experience it. That is all you do. You are not the artist.

LastGreatBlasphemer, you failed to understand my point. What Bioware was selling was an experience that was and became personalised. This is what was promised as wasn't delivered. Instead we got a 'one size fits all' ending. We have a right to complain.

See your rigid definition of art is the same definition that would have relegated games to being just that. The concept and definition of art of is constantly in flux. Games allow a change in that definition, and Bioware seems to realise that. They are offering an ending that I hope will offer closure. That's all that's really being asked for.

DrVornoff:

thebighead01:
And let's not forget that in other established forms of art there have been changes made post publishing (Blade Runner anyone?).

When you can point me to the "Fan Cut" DVD release of Blade Runner then you might have a point.

But here's the thing: you didn't write shit. You didn't program shit. You didn't draw shit. You made choice, but it was within the confines that Bioware created. Claiming that because you made some choice in gameplay somehow gives you a director's credit is ludicrous.

*Sigh* DrVornoff, you also failed to understand the point I was trying to make. We are not asking for director's credit. As has been pointed out fan input has shaped development of the game so our input is already there. Also, again, let me repeat this to be as clear as possible, all that is needed is CLOSURE. The ending didn't offer that. It created more questions than answers, and ultimate failed to deliver on the very game mechanic it had built its franchise on, choice and consequences. This is what we though we bought, but we didn't get.

In any case Bioware don't seem to agree with you lot. I feel that they are and will strike a balance between holding on to their creative integrity while offering what is most important. You know what it is. Say it with me now. Yes it's CLOSURE. So all your rage against this isn't really going to go to take you anywhere. Isn't it hypocritical to complain about people who complain, since you believe people shouldn't ever complain since it won't or shouldn't change anything? Hope that doesn't go over your heads.

Zhukov:
(Good Lord, when will this topic go away?)

You want it to go away Zhukov don't reply to threads like these honey. :)

thats not hostile feedback, its a different opinion to yours, unless you were expecting everyone to agree with you or something #.

So what? You can't call someone out on making shit anymore? Not even when 90% of the thing in question is ok-good-really good?

Expecting something not to be different when there was no reason at all for it to be, is being entitled now?

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