What do you think of the Retake/Hold the Line movement, are they:
"Entitled crybabies"
25.5% (110)
25.5% (110)
"Rightfully angry customers that should be voicing their dissatisfaction"
36% (155)
36% (155)
"^The same as the above but they have taken it too far or are not expressing their feelings in the appropriate/acceptable way"
37.8% (163)
37.8% (163)
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Poll: What is your opinion of "Retake Mass Effect 3" and/or "Hold the Line"

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BrionJames:
I believe they're a lot of over-entitled king baby cry ass'. What I can't believe is that Bioware is even giving in to their demands and releasing DLC to change the ending.

And right there is where I stopped.

If you knew what you were talking about then you'd know that this DLC isn't changing the ending at all.

Bobic:

Just because something is not part of a loosely defined agreement doesn't mean it shouldn't be. Also, they claimed that there wouldn't be an ending that boils down to A, B or C and then the ending was exactly that, so they did, in fact, break the agreement.

Anyway, what if I were to say that I disagree with fans demanding a new ending but think they are well within their rights to ask for a better ending?

Thing this is they dont owe you anything at all once you pay for the product.

I have no problem with people asking Bioware to expand/fix the ending of the game. I think that is actually the proper way to go about it.

What I do have a problem with is people demanding that Bioware do that and saying that they are entitled to a better one. They are not entitled to fuck all. Thats actually kind of why I like the rout that Bioware is taking. Expanding the current ending but not actually changing it.

I also think people are way overreacting. It is just a game, there have been bad games before and there will be again. This one is not special. Its a risk you run when you buy a product like this.

Bobic:

Mcoffey:

Bobic:

Is there a good reason why people shouldn't be entitled to a satisfying product? It is the way it is because a dlc system was never in place. Fallout 3 improved its ending with dlc, people were quite happy with that.

There's no good reason why people should be entitled. It'd be nice if everything we bought satisfied us completely, but it should never be required and would be an impossible standard to live up to, due to the subjective nature most products fall under.

Games aren't pictures hung in a free to browse gallery, I still think the whole 'spent a chunk of money on it' thing is a good reason for a decent level of satisfaction. And yes, it's an impossible standard to live up to on the whole, but when there is this much dissatisfaction (I saw a poll on this very site with more than 2 thirds saying the ending was a problem) why should a company not take steps to rectify its failing? Maybe Bioware will win back some customers with this extended cut, who knows, could be win-win.

Like I said before, you hope for the best when you buy something. If it doesn't meet your standards then you try to be more wary next time. Anyone can spend money on anything, but not everyone will be satisfied with everything. "You can't please em all" and all that. Even if most of your audience is upset, the most you should be "expected" to do is take it into consideration in future endeavors.

And personally, I was still pretty damn satisfied with the other 99% of Mass Effect 3.

Somewhere between option 3 and option 1.

They'll defend their movement all they want but they didn't have that stereotype unfairly pushed onto them. They earned it by having a heck of a lot of people fitting right into that stereotype. People raging hard at the ending, metabombing them, ignoring the other 29 hours 50 minutes of the game, demanding all their wants be fufilled instantly and for free, the "worst company in America" contest thing where they said EA was worse than Bank of America...

They've got complaints about the end of the game that they're totally right about. But they've still completely lived up to that entitled whiners stereotype from my experience.

Mcoffey:

Bobic:

Mcoffey:

There's no good reason why people should be entitled. It'd be nice if everything we bought satisfied us completely, but it should never be required and would be an impossible standard to live up to, due to the subjective nature most products fall under.

Games aren't pictures hung in a free to browse gallery, I still think the whole 'spent a chunk of money on it' thing is a good reason for a decent level of satisfaction. And yes, it's an impossible standard to live up to on the whole, but when there is this much dissatisfaction (I saw a poll on this very site with more than 2 thirds saying the ending was a problem) why should a company not take steps to rectify its failing? Maybe Bioware will win back some customers with this extended cut, who knows, could be win-win.

Like I said before, you hope for the best when you buy something. If it doesn't meet your standards then you try to be more wary next time. Anyone can spend money on anything, but not everyone will be satisfied with everything. "You can't please em all" and all that. Even if most of your audience is upset, the most you should be "expected" to do is take it into consideration in future endeavors.

And personally, I was still pretty damn satisfied with the other 99% of Mass Effect 3.

While that is the case now, is there a good reason why, with the invention of dlc, we can't change that? Is it really a good thing that when most of the audience is upset, they have to stay upset, even when the company has the ability to fix it?

Das Boot:

Bobic:

Just because something is not part of a loosely defined agreement doesn't mean it shouldn't be. Also, they claimed that there wouldn't be an ending that boils down to A, B or C and then the ending was exactly that, so they did, in fact, break the agreement.

Anyway, what if I were to say that I disagree with fans demanding a new ending but think they are well within their rights to ask for a better ending?

Thing this is they dont owe you anything at all once you pay for the product.

I have no problem with people asking Bioware to expand/fix the ending of the game. I think that is actually the proper way to go about it.

What I do have a problem with is people demanding that Bioware do that and saying that they are entitled to a better one. They are not entitled to fuck all. Thats actually kind of why I like the rout that Bioware is taking. Expanding the current ending but not actually changing it.

I also think people are way overreacting. It is just a game, there have been bad games before and there will be again. This one is not special. Its a risk you run when you buy a product like this.

I guess we're sort of in agreement there then, I am thoroughly in option 3 of the poll, some members of the retake movement really were acting like that special type of douche that seems to thrive on the internet. It's just that I think if a company annoys that many people, they have made a big mistake, and steps to rectify that seem to be good for everyone, so why not?

I will add, and this is to both of you (and anyone else who is reading), that it should always fall on to the developer to decide whether and what changes to make. If a writer (or writing team) makes an unpopular decision and decides they want to stand by their artistic decision to do whatever it is they did, then more power to them. This is why I made the ask/demand distinction. Fans can and should ask for whatever they want, but they should never demand it, that's when it becomes entitlement.
P.S. I'm not sure how much of that applies to mass effect 3, I've been arguing for the general concept, not this specific case.

Bobic:
snip

I think I may have lost my argument somewhere along the way. I'm basically trying to say what Das Boot is saying. If the writers and the developers feel that the ending isn't how they feel Mass Effect 3 should end, then more power to them to change it. The Directors Cut of Kingdom of Heaven is certainly better than the original. But under no circumstances do the fans have the right to demand that they change anything.

I think personally that they have a right to be angry. The ending did feel phoned in. BioWare/EA saying they're going to clarify the horrible one choice ending is an insult to their fans that they think they have no right to be mad. OR they really aren't listening at all and just guessed that people only wanted to get more details out of the ending they didn't at all like. Not to mention a two year limit on it only exacerbates this problem.

I understand that compromising the story tellers ability to tell a story and its end without worrying about being attacked for merely not delivering EXACTLY what the players expected as a concern, but to me this doesn't apply because if I could personally see some real effort being put into wrapping it up with that ending i could get behind this... but i simply don't see it in the ending we got, and with the added fact that Mass Effect was sold as a game where your choices carried real consequences to the end, I have to agree with the retake Mass Effect people. Personally I would argue it should be called retake Bioware because since the EA purchase they have done them no favors reputation wise, which is why EA bought them for their superb reputation to deliver story driven RPG's that drew players in.

Personally I think EA has just gotten so large that they view their customers as some enemy that they must over come and beat into submission to get money from them. I only see antagonism coming from EA recently with them refusing to change anything despite customer outcry.

It is incredibly annoying to see people dismiss complaints because of the Extended Cut DLC. The Extended Cut doesn't even touch the major complaints, so why would you view it as a gift to the complainers? It's not. Maybe a few people wanted this, but it doesn't address the most common complaints.

It is also really frustrating to see gamers come down so hard on other gamers who simply want a product that doesn't suck sweaty balls. Sure, some of the outrage is a little much, but aren't you pointing the finger in the wrong direction all the same? Gamers put up with this shit way too fucking much. Demanding good products and services does NOT make you entitled or a douche (somehow those words always get paired). Everyone who isn't a gamer takes that for granted. What's so fucking weird is to see gamers self-policing their own ranks, attacking anyone who stands up for them. It's not just Mass Effect, it's any issue in the industry that affects consumers.

I fucking hate it.

Ralfy:

Durgiun:

Hardly. A good ending is important to any story, but the uproar the Retake and Hold the Line people made is just going overboard. They're acting as if BioWare just stole their girl/boyfriends/wifes/husbands and are now demanding the wrong be righted.

This is not a story but a video game.

Your description of the "uproar" looks like more of the same overreaction to me.

The video game has a story. Ergo, we're talking about a story with a crap ending that just so happens to take the form of a video game.

If you think this is overreacting then you have very weird standards.

I went with entitled crybabies simply because now they are complaining about the extended cut DLC which has proved what I really thought all along which is they are just Bioware fans doing what Bioware fans do which is complaining about everything the company ever does.

I don't understand the outrage.
Mass Effect was never, ever, ever good.
The only reason it got so much recognition
is because it was an X360 exclusive.
Get over it, it never was anything more
than a below-average cover shooter
with cliche'd dialogue and some
unnecessary, badly done RPG elements.

Mcoffey:

Bobic:
snip

I think I may have lost my argument somewhere along the way. I'm basically trying to say what Das Boot is saying. If the writers and the developers feel that the ending isn't how they feel Mass Effect 3 should end, then more power to them to change it. The Directors Cut of Kingdom of Heaven is certainly better than the original. But under no circumstances do the fans have the right to demand that they change anything.

See, I think fans do have some rights about how a product is handled, having payed for it and all, but demand is definitely too far, they should just ask for changes, from there it depends on how much the developer believes in their project and their artistic vision.

Mcoffey:
Except that's not true. There were several variations of those 3 endings. As found with a quick google search:

Now does this make any of the endings less shit? No. But Bioware didn't lie. Plenty of endings, each pretty shitty, but still varied enough, and hinging upon past actions to be the truth.

They were vague, and somewhat misleading, but they never lied.

Except all of that doesn't stop it from being a clear ABC ending that doesn't even take the game's most major decisions (curing the genophage, your resolution to the Quarian-Geth war etc.) into account. Even your decision to destroy or preserve the Collector's base only changes only two value in those Readiness Ratings (requirement goes from 1900 to 2350 and 2350 to 2050). It has no explicitly noticeable impact in-game.

There's A: Control, B: Synthesis and C: Destroy. Even though they have minor variations depending on your Readiness Rating it's still a clear ABC-ending.

It's the exact thing they promised us there wouldn't be. If you can't see that then don't bother replying, that discussion would go nowhere.

Hagi:

Mcoffey:
Except that's not true. There were several variations of those 3 endings. As found with a quick google search:

Now does this make any of the endings less shit? No. But Bioware didn't lie. Plenty of endings, each pretty shitty, but still varied enough, and hinging upon past actions to be the truth.

They were vague, and somewhat misleading, but they never lied.

Except all of that doesn't stop it from being a clear ABC ending that doesn't even take the game's most major decisions (curing the genophage, your resolution to the Quarian-Geth war etc.) into account. Even your decision to destroy or preserve the Collector's base only changes only two value in those Readiness Ratings (requirement goes from 1900 to 2350 and 2350 to 2050). It has no explicitly noticeable impact in-game.

There's A: Control, B: Synthesis and C: Destroy. Even though they have minor variations depending on your Readiness Rating it's still a clear ABC-ending.

It's the exact thing they promised us there wouldn't be. If you can't see that then don't bother replying, that discussion would go nowhere.

Except it's not. I'm not agreeing with them, but saying it's only three endings is just incorrect.

Bobic:

Mcoffey:

Bobic:
snip

I think I may have lost my argument somewhere along the way. I'm basically trying to say what Das Boot is saying. If the writers and the developers feel that the ending isn't how they feel Mass Effect 3 should end, then more power to them to change it. The Directors Cut of Kingdom of Heaven is certainly better than the original. But under no circumstances do the fans have the right to demand that they change anything.

See, I think fans do have some rights about how a product is handled, having payed for it and all, but demand is definitely too far, they should just ask for changes, from there it depends on how much the developer believes in their project and their artistic vision.

I'm all for constructive criticism, but that's a bit different than what's been happening here, for the most part.

Mcoffey:
Except it's not. I'm not agreeing with them, but saying it's only three endings is just incorrect.

If you can't see how this is an ABC-ending then let's just end this discussion. It's pointless arguing about it.

You've already decided the fans are wrong.

One of the first things I learned when I started taking writing classes was that you write for your audience. Whether it's an academic paper or a novel. If you don't write soemthing people want to read, you will not be successful.

All this talk about artistic integrity is bullshit. Books that maintain their "artistic integrity" rarely make money. They will occasionally win awards, but more often than not they end up on the 10 cent rack.

I think it's fantastic the ME crowd is voicing their displeasure at the ending/writing. What I don't think is fantastic is the attempt at a lawsuit for false advertising and all the hate mail and death threats Casey Hudsen is reportedly recieving.

Definitely entitled crybabies that started to descend into the realm of the ridiculous and annoying even before the game was released!

anthony87:

BrionJames:
I believe they're a lot of over-entitled king baby cry ass'. What I can't believe is that Bioware is even giving in to their demands and releasing DLC to change the ending.

And right there is where I stopped.

If you knew what you were talking about then you'd know that this DLC isn't changing the ending at all.

The point is, is that they responded at all to all the fucking whining. Your right, I didn't know if the DLC was changing the ending or not, but that's not important. The idea that they created this DLC in response is.

You call it whining, I call it grown adults having issue with a product that billed itself a certain way and didn't deliver, and instead of just taking it and rolling over they are calling the company and EA out on it. Games are no longer the realm of kids stuff and shouldn't be treated that way. People are demanding thought out stories with satisfying conclusions, how is that demand "Whining"?

personally I find the ending hilariously bad, but I perfectly understand why any fan of a series which is all about the story and characters would hate that ending and want to see it changed, and I fully expect the ending to change not just because the fans deserve better but because bioware could do better with even the slightest of effort.

There's nothing they've done that isn't justifiable at some practical level. So i'm all for it. HOLD THE LINE

Durgiun:

Ralfy:

Durgiun:

Hardly. A good ending is important to any story, but the uproar the Retake and Hold the Line people made is just going overboard. They're acting as if BioWare just stole their girl/boyfriends/wifes/husbands and are now demanding the wrong be righted.

This is not a story but a video game.

Your description of the "uproar" looks like more of the same overreaction to me.

The video game has a story. Ergo, we're talking about a story with a crap ending that just so happens to take the form of a video game.

If you think this is overreacting then you have very weird standards.

If a "good ending" is "important to any story," then why do you see them "going overboard"? I would understand your reaction if the ending were not "important to any story."

Second, what we have is an interactive story, which is essentially an adventure video game with RPG elements. It is not just "any story." That makes the idea of a "good ending" even more complex.

With that, not just any complaint but the content of such complaints (which have been discussed in other threads) should be noted, and I find the content of such valid and logical.

getoffmycloud:
I went with entitled crybabies simply because now they are complaining about the extended cut DLC which has proved what I really thought all along which is they are just Bioware fans doing what Bioware fans do which is complaining about everything the company ever does.

I'm not sure if the problems concerning the ending can be repaired with cut scenes. The other bad news is that I don't think what can be done to fix these problems can be offered in a DLC offered for free.

Ralfy:

getoffmycloud:
I went with entitled crybabies simply because now they are complaining about the extended cut DLC which has proved what I really thought all along which is they are just Bioware fans doing what Bioware fans do which is complaining about everything the company ever does.

I'm not sure if the problems concerning the ending can be repaired with cut scenes. The other bad news is that I don't think what can be done to fix these problems can be offered in a DLC offered for free.

Perhaps that is true but we wont know until it is released so really their is no point to complaining about it

I like me some option 3. For sure, make sure Bioware knows your opinion on the ending and dissatisfaction with it, but do not force them to make a new one. Let Bioware decide if they need to make a new one, but don't pressure them to.

But, TBH, a bit of 1 is included in my opinion as well. I mean, if an ending to a game series gets you this worked up, you take the whole entire thing way to damn seriously.

when I read part of the topic, saying hold the line I thought of Babylon 5 and then realised this thread was another boring old mass effect thread

Ralfy:

Durgiun:

Ralfy:

This is not a story but a video game.

Your description of the "uproar" looks like more of the same overreaction to me.

The video game has a story. Ergo, we're talking about a story with a crap ending that just so happens to take the form of a video game.

If you think this is overreacting then you have very weird standards.

If a "good ending" is "important to any story," then why do you see them "going overboard"? I would understand your reaction if the ending were not "important to any story."

Second, what we have is an interactive story, which is essentially an adventure video game with RPG elements. It is not just "any story." That makes the idea of a "good ending" even more complex.

With that, not just any complaint but the content of such complaints (which have been discussed in other threads) should be noted, and I find the content of such valid and logical.

I see them going overboard because they're literally making a movement out of being upset with a crap ending. It's just a bloody story, for Chrits's sake, not someone's mother getting killed.

If I may satirize, the ME games were just a big Ego handjob, but ME3 pulled away before the users could cum. And now they've got blue Ego balls. My. Heart. Bleeds.

Look above. I don't care how one's ego was well-stroked, they're still overreacting.

Dumb...

ACV (a game that despite its issues is still amazing) has a lot more legit reasons to demand attention from Namco Bandai then what Retake people are upset over.

Itīs a good thing that finally something happend. The gaming industry isn`t used to pay much attention to it`s own customers. It doesnīt matter if it`s about an ending or a gaming service. They need a wake up call. There were a lot of people who expressed their discomfort and anger about ME3 in a serious way. Too bad the whiners stand out the most but that`s how it is.
Regarding the massive amount of hours people put into the ME universe+the false advertising of many multiple ends i think they have the right to complain as much as they can. It shows that they care about the product and all they want is a reasonable worthy end, withhout the out of nowhere space kid and three different colored explosions.

They're just a bunch of self entitled cry babies who are just pissed that they didn't get their sunshine and bunnies ending with their virtual space waifu.

Right up until the release of ME3 the fanbase was revealed revelation after revealtion that pointed in a direction that ME3's plot was absolute shit. Things like being railroaded against Cerberus "just because", having TIM's actions be completely illogical and to the detriment of both the galaxy AND himself, having Cerberus' size and power completely contradict everything established in ME2 and ME Revelation, sacrificing the integrity of Ashley's character (and the setting itself ....again) for the sake of sexing her up just to appease the base needs of the average player, and perhaps most annoyingly of all destroying any sense of moral ambiguity by having it so "pure paragon = perfect" and renegade simply equals the same content with the same consequences, but worse. A complete betrayal to the fanbase and the complete opposite of what this series promised: "tough choices" and "Meaningful Consequences for one's actions".

So how were these horrible developments met? Well aside from a vocal minority, indifference and perhaps even worse, support.

The antagonist's actions being completely illogical and destroying any sense of character integrity? Unimportant.

Being railroaded against an ally for no reason what so ever regardless of what the player's choices were? Doesn't matter.

Having all previous knowledge about said ally completely contradict their new "role"? Who cares?

Taking a strong female character and reducing her to a piece of fapbait to please fat throbbing little girth of the average pimple faced teen? So what?

Worst of all, completely lying to the fanbase about tough decisions and consequences and completely destroying the moral ambiguity of the setting by favouring one set of choices at all times regardless of how little sense it makes? "Lol stfu whiners"

None of this mattered. With all these revelations that pointed to a plot made up of contradictions, character destruction and juvenile pandering, the overwhelming majority of ME's fans didn't seem to care. The things I'd like to think are important to all fans of ME; plot, character and choice + consequence seem to be of little importance to any of them. It's only when Bioware suddenly stopped jerking the average player off and actually slapped them with a dose of reality that they actually seemed to take issue with the direction of ME's plot.

It's pathetic. This isn't about the setting's integrity, a character's integrity or anything like that, rather these whiners simply see these games as a juvenile fantasy that's sole purpose is to beat them off and gratify their ego in the most childish manner possible. I see they all 'want' to have these endings 'fixed', but this is a total crock of shit. Yes there's plenty that's certainly wrong with these endings that make little sense but it's not these things that they want fixed, they simply want it so Shepard and crew get their rainbows and bunnies ending.

It's quite sad really. So long as people like this continue to be the market for videogames, they'll never be able grow as an artistic medium and tackle more challenging and adult issues for fear of hurting the fragile ego of the average player.

Zen Toombs:

tacotrainwreck:

Wow, my condolences to you for wherever it is you live, man. Even North Korea just sends you to the Gulag. :P

Wow, they've got a gulag now? They're moving up in the world.

TBH, a gulag has the same effect, but is slower.

Yeah, I'm getting sick of this movement. If someone had tried to ask a developer to fix a game's ending 6 months ago, the same people who support this movement would have laughed themselves silly at them. I'm calling entitlement on this one. You can ask bioware to change the ending if you want, but that's it. In the end, they have the right to decide what they do with their stuff.

I think it's a bit of an overreaction. I don't mind the entire internet howling that the ending was shit (after all, it's the internet) but an organized action to change the ending of the game because you didn't like it seems a bit immature to me. Lots of games, movies and books have had shitty endings. Accept it and move on.

It's annoying as hell, You don't like the ending of a game?
Deal with it.

While I did dislike the idea of the ending, I've grown tired of hearing about it. And I think the people who used the charity as a front should get a reality check.

trollpwner:

Zen Toombs:

tacotrainwreck:

Wow, my condolences to you for wherever it is you live, man. Even North Korea just sends you to the Gulag. :P

Wow, they've got a gulag now? They're moving up in the world.

TBH, a gulag has the same effect, but is slower.

trollpwner:
Yeah, I'm getting sick of this movement. If someone had tried to ask a developer to fix a game's ending 6 months ago, the same people who support this movement would have laughed themselves silly at them. I'm calling entitlement on this one. You can ask bioware to change the ending if you want, but that's it. In the end, they have the right to decide what they do with their stuff.

I'm getting pretty fatigued with all the talk about the ending as well, in part because people now kindof need to wait for the DLC to come out.

Also, while I can't speak for everyone I know that I would only take umbrage with people wanting a developer to change the ending of a game if that person has legitimate reasons for doing so. For example, when the developers have multiple statements saying "we won't pull a 'Lost' style ending that raises more questions than answers. Most of your questions will be answered", people have a right to be upset and want that changed when the exact opposite happens.[1]

You're setting up a strawman here - almost everyone who in this movement knows that Bioware can mostly do as they wish with their products. However, to act as Bioware has is to act in bad faith. When someone acts in bad faith, it is not problematic to call them out on it and have them fix the problems they caused by acting in bad faith. If anything, it is more problematic to not call them out on it.

[1] there are more examples, but I'm running short on time. suffice to say that there are many other acceptable reasons fans could ask for the ending to be changed, many of which are contained within the Mass Effect 3 ending

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