It's not the complexity or deepness of games. It's not how long you've been playing games. It's not how much you spend on gaming hardware, nor how long you still play games.
It's a big fucking attitude problem.
I'll be talking to everyone who said "the masses" are the problem in the "What's holding back the industry" thread. Who the hell are you to deem who is worthy and not worthy of playing video games? Who are you to decide that new people shouldn't ever join because if they do, they won't start off with the game that takes six math problems to start up? What gives you any authority on who joins us in enjoying our medium? I thought you wanted everyone to enjoy games. I guess you wanted them to only play the games you like.
How the hell are we going to move forward as a community and as a medium if we start excluding people based on their preferences? Do you know how bad I can make you guys look with this argument? It's the same argument as "Gay people shouldn't be able to get married because they don't follow certain bible rules". That's how bad it is. Hell, if some of you guys talked about black people the way you talk about casual gamers, you'd of been banned from this forum for blatant racism 2 days after you started talking like that.
But of course, you're not talking about gay people or black people. You're talking about casual gamers, which apparently makes it ok. Except, it really really doesn't.
Also, you want innovation, right? Well, how will that happen when you don't let creative people get in to our medium? Yeah, bet you didn't think of that. Since you're excluding casual gamers from the mix, you might also be excluding people with great game ideas from even touching the medium they want to develop for.
Also, you want games to keep coming out, right? Well, how will that happen if new customers stop coming in because you decided to insult them on how casual they are? If you want big games and even some small games to keep being made, you have to let these guys in, or else games won't be profitable any more, and you'll basically see no more new titles.
To add to that, weren't you a casual gamer at one point? Or did you pop out of your mom's vagina playing a game boy?
And finally, do you want our medium recognized as a medium for everyone, where anyone can get in and enjoy it with you and you finally won't have to explain inner game workings to anyone or not? Do you want gaming to get respect or not? Well, we're not going to get respect if we keep insulting the crap out of new gamers and casual gamers. All you're accomplishing by doing that is making us look like a bunch of exclusionary morons. Do you really want to continue on with the current community of people who will insult you if you happen to like call of duty? Do you want to become that clique at high school that doesn't let anyone in because they're not "Hip" "Cool" or "Smart" enough? Do you really want to have your siblings look at you in confusion every time you mention a game because you didn't let them in in the first place? Do you want gaming to remain a small economy that's easy for right wing nutjobs to target because the parents and old people you didn't let in have no idea what video games are actually like? Do you want all of that? If not, then stop insulting casual gamers and blaming them for every industry problem.
Casual gamer is just an excuse for sucking at a game IMO. I hear people in WoW say it all the time "sorry, i have a life and im not a nerd so im not pro like like YOU"
an I hardcore because I own somthing more substancial than a Wii or DS? am I hardcore because I have a custom built machine? am I hardcore because I devote hours upon hours to gaming?
Man, I'm so sick of this "move forward as a community" and "improve the medium" rhetoric. Let hardcores hate casuals, and let casuals not give a shit. It's not going to change anything, and none of that post-apocalyptic shit you mentioned about games not being made anymore is going to happen. So-called hardcores don't do anything beyond making stupid comments anyway. Film has its snobs; literature has its snobs. Let gaming have its hardcores.
I came to this thread to bitch about how Hardcore and Casual doesnt exist, and how theyre terms used by assholes who want to keep other people away from their hobbies.
dyre: Man, I'm so sick of this "move forward as a community" and "improve the medium" rhetoric. Let hardcores hate casuals, and let casuals not give a shit. It's not going to change anything, and none of that post-apocalyptic shit you mentioned about games not being made anymore is going to happen. So-called hardcores don't do anything beyond making stupid comments anyway. Film has its snobs; literature has its snobs. Let gaming have its hardcores.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand /thread. This guy nails it. Now, shall we move on to a topic worth discussing?
1) hardcore and casual don't mean shit. 2) hardcore players can be shit 3) casual players can be good 4) casual and lazy aren't the same thing 5) spouting hate and profanity on t3h int3rw3bz isn't impressing anyone
Casual gamers are by definition people with little interest in the medium. And that's fine, everyone's been there, and at some point they get into real games, or they don't.
The problem arises when developers that used to make real games (BioWare, CryTek) flip off their original fans and go for the casual market - that usually involves dumbing down a beloved franchise and blowing hundreds of millions on marketing, only to sell less than their last title. That is what creates the animosity between core gamers and casual gamers - idiotic developers.
I do not give a single fuck about Angry Birds, Farmville, or Wii Sports, or whatever, I have zero investment in that genre or developer or franchise. But when a developer I've supported for years tells me they're taking a deliberate step back in their craft, because of a misguided belief in the casual fantasy land where their games sell 100 million copies, I have reasons to be upset.
Thoric485: Casual gamers are by definition people with little interest in the medium. And that's fine, everyone's been there, and at some point they get into real games, or they don't.
The problem arises when developers that used to make real games (BioWare, CryTek) flip off their original fans and go for the casual market - that usually involves dumbing down a beloved franchise and blowing hundreds of millions on marketing, only to sell less than their last title. That is what creates the animosity between core gamers and casual gamers - idiotic developers.
I do not give a single fuck about Angry Birds, Farmville, or Wii Sports, or whatever, I have zero investment in that genre or developer or franchise. But when a developer I've supported for years tells me they're taking a deliberate step back in their craft, because of a misguided belief in the casual fantasy land where their games sell 100 million copies, I have reasons to be upset.
Wait wait wait. Real games? What the fuck does that mean? What makes your preferred games more "Real" than the casual games? You're really going to have to explain this to me.
Thoric485: Casual gamers are by definition people with little interest in the medium. And that's fine, everyone's been there, and at some point they get into real games, or they don't.
The problem arises when developers that used to make real games (BioWare, CryTek) flip off their original fans and go for the casual market - that usually involves dumbing down a beloved franchise and blowing hundreds of millions on marketing, only to sell less than their last title. That is what creates the animosity between core gamers and casual gamers - idiotic developers.
I do not give a single fuck about Angry Birds, Farmville, or Wii Sports, or whatever, I have zero investment in that genre or developer or franchise. But when a developer I've supported for years tells me they're taking a deliberate step back in their craft, because of a misguided belief in the casual fantasy land where their games sell 100 million copies, I have reasons to be upset.
Wait wait wait. Real games? What the fuck does that mean? What makes your preferred games more "Real" than the casual games? You're really going to have to explain this to me.
Alright, call them niche games then. Point is core gamers would not give a toss about the casual market, if it wasn't affecting the games they play.
FINE !I'll bite . DEDICATION . Thats your answer . Also who are YOU to say we are wrong mr.fancy pants . Desication with was seperates a hardcore crowed from the casual crowed in any hobby! If i like to fighting games but i only play an hour a week , and someone else likes to play fightin games 10 hours a day , and HE/SHE/IT plays in tournaments , WHO'S a casual ? Obvious answer is obvious . Apply that to EVERYTHING , like canadians with maple syrup ... I'm tired i'm going to bed . Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It's more of I want games that I enjoy. I don't care about the hardcore/casual titles I just want games that appeal to me. Who doesn't? My problem is when casual games affect "hardcore" games in efforts to appeal to everyone. It would be fine if it was as simple as apple and oranges, but I hate it when people want to turn apples into apple/orange hybrids. And not just some random apple apple either, from now on every granny smith will be part orange. I just want my traditional granny smith.
GethBall: No such thing as a hardcore or casual gamer.
I suppose by extension there's no such thing as a film buff?
Thoric485: Alright, call them niche games then. Point is core gamers would not give a toss about the casual market, if it wasn't affecting the games they play.
There are still plenty of games made with you in mind. Should I as a horror fan accuse the film industry of selling out to the Saw fantards instead of making more of the Neo-Gothic films that I love? Should I also bitch at the people who like movies like A Serbian Film, which is a sub-genre I don't enjoy?
Relax. There's room for everybody. I enjoyed Torment as much as anyone else, but I still have an embarrassing number of hours clocked in on Plants vs. Zombies. It's all good.
I think the difference between 'hardcore' and 'casual' (utterly horrible terms in my opinion) is a matter of interest level in a medium, rather than what they actually play.
TehCookie: It's more of I want games that I enjoy. I don't care about the hardcore/casual titles I just want games that appeal to me. Who doesn't? My problem is when casual games affect "hardcore" games in efforts to appeal to everyone.
That's pretty much the point here.
I don't feel the need to be good at playing video games, nor do I want to be particularly challenged by the games' difficulty. It's a recreational thing for me - after nine hours of work and another one and a half on the train I just want a nice story wrapped in shiny graphics and engaging gameplay.
That said, while I play my games on lowest (combat) difficulty, I'm not comfortable with complexity going out of the window. Like when X-Wing Alliance was the last big name Space Flight Sim utilizing the whole damn keyboard.
Apart from that, I don't care for "moving forward as a medium" or "videogames being appreciated as art" or whatever. It's fun for me, and I can totally live with people looking at me funny because I like to play video games. It's usually worth it.
GethBall: No such thing as a hardcore or casual gamer.
Yes, we shall, Batman vs Garrus Vakarian, who would win in a fight?
Batman. Because its Batman. Beat the shit outta the Green Lantern. Beat the shit outta Superman. Beat the shit outta Bane. You get the idea.
Ahh... but you must remember, Garrus is space Batman.
True. But i think i remember earth Batman beating the shit outta his alternate universe self as well. May have been in one of the movies, im not sure. So in a Batman vs Batman fight Batman would win.
Thoric485: Alright, call them niche games then. Point is core gamers would not give a toss about the casual market, if it wasn't affecting the games they play.
There are still plenty of games made with you in mind. Should I as a horror fan accuse the film industry of selling out to the Saw fantards instead of making more of the Neo-Gothic films that I love? Should I also bitch at the people who like movies like A Serbian Film, which is a sub-genre I don't enjoy?
No, of course not. The problem is not in the casual fanbase, it's the misguided developer/publisher belief that "niche franchise + casual pandering = 5+ million sales".
It ruined Command and Conquer, Splinter Cell, Dragon Age, Crysis and it's the reason people think casual gamers are bad for the industry, when they really aren't.
Batman. Because its Batman. Beat the shit outta the Green Lantern. Beat the shit outta Superman. Beat the shit outta Bane. You get the idea.
Ahh... but you must remember, Garrus is space Batman.
True. But i think i remember earth Batman beating the shit outta his alternate universe self as well. May have been in one of the movies, im not sure. So in a Batman vs Batman fight Batman would win.
...this is fun.
You have truely confused the shit out of me sir. Good show.
Actually, it's a case of failure to apply logic, on both sides.
Changing games by making them more mainstream changes, get this, the game. If you take a hypothetical game concept that I'm interested in, perhaps an RPG as an example, and then dumb down the story, make the dialogue less wordy, reduce the amount of dialogue selection, make combat easier, make character development easier to understand with less meaningful choices (HI DEUS EX HUMAN REVOLUTIONS IM LOOKING AT YOU), etc etc etc and a million and one other design choices based around MAKE IT MAINSTREAM...
If you do all that, guess what happens? The mainstream, they might like this game. Me? I won't.
Making games more mainstream isn't about widening the potential audience of a game. It's about taking games away from the people that enjoy them most.
And that, in a nutshell, is why so-called 'hardcore' gamers are annoyed with (fairly) recent trend.
Not sure about the "crowd", but I had a revelation the other day about what separates "hardcore" and "casual" games.
It's simple. "Hardcore" games assumed a certain level of prior knowledge about how video games (especially of the same genre) work. "Casual" games don't assume anything beyond that you probably know how to switch your PC/console on and put the disk in.
So Viva Pinata is a casual game because it explains absolutely everything, meaning my non-gamer sister was able to pick it up and play it with no problems. Whereas the tutorial section in Devil May Cry 4 wasn't nearly informative enough to teach her how to play, making it a hardcore game.
To add to that, weren't you a casual gamer at one point?
Actually, no I wasn't. First game I remember playing was Age of Empires, which certainly isn't very hardcore, but it's also not causal. From there, I went onto Pokemon Blue, Homeworld, Age of Empires 2, Tachyon: The Fringe and others.
Well if we leave the drama hat on the side for purposes of having an actual discussion then attitude is actually the defining pivot point.
A "casual" gamer has a near apathetic attitude towards games, while a "hardcore" gamer is all in with dedication. Now before you get your torches and pitchforks out in both cases I am describing myself, in some games I just tune out and take a gentle stroll while in others I fucking study that shit, I go into ridiculous details to get that optimum gameplay.
And when you are trying to determine opinions with more weight I for one will listen to the guy who didn't just walk through games blind.
MetalMagpie: Not sure about the "crowd", but I had a revelation the other day about what separates "hardcore" and "casual" games.
It's simple. "Hardcore" games assumed a certain level of prior knowledge about how video games (especially of the same genre) work. "Casual" games don't assume anything beyond that you probably know how to switch your PC/console on and put the disk in.
So Viva Pinata is a casual game because it explains absolutely everything, meaning my non-gamer sister was able to pick it up and play it with no problems. Whereas the tutorial section in Devil May Cry 4 wasn't nearly informative enough to teach her how to play, making it a hardcore game.
While I agree with the first part I don't think tutorials have much to do with it. I think it's more along how the game rewards the player. Pokemon is an easy game but it doesn't have any tutorials, especially on EV and IV training. However you don't need to know that to play the game, you are rewarded by beating gyms and catching Pokemon. The tiny stat different is just extras for the people who want to dive into the series. With DMC4 you can play it with only the tutorial on easy-automatic, but you don't get to enjoy the combat. You have to know how to pull off stylish combos to feel rewarded and that takes skill.
MetalMagpie: Not sure about the "crowd", but I had a revelation the other day about what separates "hardcore" and "casual" games.
It's simple. "Hardcore" games assumed a certain level of prior knowledge about how video games (especially of the same genre) work. "Casual" games don't assume anything beyond that you probably know how to switch your PC/console on and put the disk in.
So Viva Pinata is a casual game because it explains absolutely everything, meaning my non-gamer sister was able to pick it up and play it with no problems. Whereas the tutorial section in Devil May Cry 4 wasn't nearly informative enough to teach her how to play, making it a hardcore game.
This is actually a very nice definition of hardcore v.s. casual games. I always wondered how some players were branded casual, while they basically sink more time in tending to their crops than I sink in exploring and reading every single book I come across in Skyrim.
It's not the complexity or deepness of games. It's not how long you've been playing games. It's not how much you spend on gaming hardware, nor how long you still play games.
It's a big fucking attitude problem.
I'll be talking to everyone who said "the masses" are the problem in the "What's holding back the industry" thread. Who the hell are you to deem who is worthy and not worthy of playing video games? Who are you to decide that new people shouldn't ever join because if they do, they won't start off with the game that takes six math problems to start up? What gives you any authority on who joins us in enjoying our medium? I thought you wanted everyone to enjoy games. I guess you wanted them to only play the games you like.
How the hell are we going to move forward as a community and as a medium if we start excluding people based on their preferences? Do you know how bad I can make you guys look with this argument? It's the same argument as "Gay people shouldn't be able to get married because they don't follow certain bible rules". That's how bad it is. Hell, if some of you guys talked about black people the way you talk about casual gamers, you'd of been banned from this forum for blatant racism 2 days after you started talking like that.
But of course, you're not talking about gay people or black people. You're talking about casual gamers, which apparently makes it ok. Except, it really really doesn't.
Also, you want innovation, right? Well, how will that happen when you don't let creative people get in to our medium? Yeah, bet you didn't think of that. Since you're excluding casual gamers from the mix, you might also be excluding people with great game ideas from even touching the medium they want to develop for.
Also, you want games to keep coming out, right? Well, how will that happen if new customers stop coming in because you decided to insult them on how casual they are? If you want big games and even some small games to keep being made, you have to let these guys in, or else games won't be profitable any more, and you'll basically see no more new titles.
To add to that, weren't you a casual gamer at one point? Or did you pop out of your mom's vagina playing a game boy?
And finally, do you want our medium recognized as a medium for everyone, where anyone can get in and enjoy it with you and you finally won't have to explain inner game workings to anyone or not? Do you want gaming to get respect or not? Well, we're not going to get respect if we keep insulting the crap out of new gamers and casual gamers. All you're accomplishing by doing that is making us look like a bunch of exclusionary morons. Do you really want to continue on with the current community of people who will insult you if you happen to like call of duty? Do you want to become that clique at high school that doesn't let anyone in because they're not "Hip" "Cool" or "Smart" enough? Do you really want to have your siblings look at you in confusion every time you mention a game because you didn't let them in in the first place? Do you want gaming to remain a small economy that's easy for right wing nutjobs to target because the parents and old people you didn't let in have no idea what video games are actually like? Do you want all of that? If not, then stop insulting casual gamers and blaming them for every industry problem.
That's what's up.